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Oakland Stomper

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30 "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"

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  1. Crusaderstar, Your points are well taken. Creating a tactic that is faithful to reality AND also effective is far harder in FM than simply creating a tactic which is effective. For example, IMO, the downsides of pressing aren't where they should be. Not major complaint, it just needs some tuning for FM21.
  2. Getafe fouls A LOT, but most of them are tactical which is the source of the yellow cards. An Attacking mentality and Get Stuck In will have them sliding in all of the place. Less so on balanced. I need to consider the two central midfield roles a bit. I guess that the only way to what works best is to try the tactic with both settings.
  3. That may be valid regarding the 4-2-2-2 as opposed to the conventional 4-4-2. With he more conventional formation I would use a Ball Winning Midfielder (s) and a Box-to-Box Midfielder. The red card total is very deceptive. Three of the seven were for a post-match fight v. Villareal with another being given to Nyom post match when he returned v. Atletico Madrid. From open play Getafe had a measly 3 red cards so "Get Stuck In" will have players leaving their feet ant THAT IS NOT part of Bordalas' defensive philosophy which emphasized keep shape and mutual support. What I think that GianniM was referencing was the time wasting through the constant lesser fouls that eventually add up to their high yellow card total. Your point regarding Mata is valid. He's likely a Pressing Forward (s or d).
  4. Jean, Bordalas is a great manager who has, regardless of Getafe's poor run after the return to play, done an incredible job of transforming a squad with average talent into a top La Liga side. He's a bit like the Sean Dyche of Spain. Regarding his tactics, while I appreciate the effort, I think that you're a bit off of the mark. Having watched 15-20 Getafe matches since 2017/18 here are my observations. Getafe lines up in a 4-2-2-2 under any and all circumstances. Sometimes it looks a bit like a 4-2-2-1-1, but that's a function of the supporting forward's role rather than his starting position. Similarly, Getafe's mentality is always Balanced. As Francisco pointed out, they more often than not play in a mid-block. There are times when they press higher up the pitch in order to prevent a short distribution, but this is situationally based. When they do this the two forwards mark the central defenders and one of the central midfielders moves up and marks the opposition holding midfielder. The outside midfielder mark the opposition outside backs more loosely. This is part of the ploy as Bordalas wants to force the opposition to play to Getafe's strengths by either going wide where they will be outnumbered or booting in long since Getafe is very strong in the air. All of Getafe's defending, which is what they do best, is based on a complex set of triggers and traps which are very hard to implement in FM. I would suggest that you review Rashidi's outstanding video on the subject. I never cease to learn things from him. As for team instructions, I'd drop most of them from the basic tactic. I'd start very simply and them add them based upon the opponent because this is precisely what Bordalas seems to do. In Possession: More Direct Passing, High Tempo and Play for Set Pieces In Transition: Distribute Quickly...that's it. No Counter? Generally no because it will commit too may players forward and Bordalas avoids this. Most of their attacks are very quick and involve no more than 4 players and often only 3. This of course depends upon the opponent. Player roles along with their individual tendencies are the key. Out of Possession: Defend Narrower, Higher Line of Engagement (Bordalas' defensive genius is in compressing the pitch), Extreme Urgency and Mark Tighter. Once again, that's it. While Getafe get a lot of yellow cards, they don't pick up many reds because they don't go to ground when tackling so no Get Stuck In. As for player roles this is also a bit circumstantial. Whether it is Cucurella or Diedhiou, the left midfielder has been more aggressive in attack. I would change this the Winger (s) while making the left back a Fullback (s). With Nyom on the right Defensive Winger (s) seems right, but the right back should be a Wingback (s). Djene is to my mind should be placed on "cover" while whoever is in the opposite slot is a more of a stopper. The two central midfielders would be set deep with one a Segundo Volante (s) and the other as a Defensive Midfielder (s or d depending on the opponent). Up front Molina is a Target Man (s) and Mata is a Pressing Forward (a). Angel's role is a bit tougher to asses when his subs in. Anyway, that's how I see it. Thanks for starting the post!
  5. I'm just starting to delve into FM20. Is there any discernible difference between the IF role and the new IW role when assigned to the AM strata? If so, what are they?
  6. No doubt that your tactic is working well for you but is doesn't really bear much resemblance to the way that Norway played under Drillo. His first consideration was have a secure defense, so until late in his career he always used a 451, 4141 template. Within that. like all good managers, he made adjustments based upon the opposition. That's why the "Flo pass" was used sporadically and for a very short time (1992-94). It not only required a dominant wide player, but also a left back, in this case Stig Bjornebye, who deliver pinpoint passes from deep. Drillo admitted that it was actually a very easy tactic to defend. If you want to recreate what Drillo did while Norway manager you really need to use the 41221 formation. The mentality can be adjusted to the opponent and the venue. You may want to read this thread from a few years ago. -OS
  7. I do feel you on this and hopefully SI addresses the issue in FM20. Specifically, the use of the narrow 433, a totally unrealistic tactic IRL because of it's inherent vulnerabilities, has been a cheat when used either by human players or by the AI.
  8. I really suggest that you do take the time to read through paragraphs, if not more on how to set up tactics. It won't suck the life out of you when you have the satisfaction of building an effective tactic or tactics. I also suggest that you read through Rashidi's posts and watch a few of his video (as time allows because they can be long and involved) because he has more "stick time" with FM than anyone else who I can think of who posts here. Successful tactics require an understanding of team and player instructions instructions, along with player roles and how they interact with a given match engine. Since I haven't had the time to play FM19 even though I own it, I'm not a person who should be outlining specifics here but there is an example from FM2013 (or was in FM12 or FM14, I forget). A fellow from Norway created two tactics, one attacking and the other controlling (now positive). Both had balanced team shapes and neither had a single player in an attacking role, yet both were great counterattacking tactics because of the underlying mentality and individual player instructions. In the following version of FM they wouldn't work because the key role of defensive winger had been removed from the AM strata and match engine had changed.
  9. Simoene's tactics are not about formations, nor are they formationally rigid, though he does require complete adherence to the plan. He had spent the bulk of his playing career in Italy and that influenced his initial style of play. When he arrived at Atleti he found a team of disparate parts that was playing far below it's potential. That was in fact the recent history of the club. His first task was the stabilize the situation and impose (that cannot be emphasized enough) his ideas on the club. If a player wasn't capable or willing to abide by this they were benched and eventually jettisoned. So if you want your team to play like Simeone's, the first thing that you need to do is get the correct players AND get rid of those who aren't right. If a player is anything less than 15 in determination, work-rate and teamwork, they won't play for Simeone. Of course one might need to compromise at lower levels, but certainly don't go below 13 in any of these traits. Also, look very carefully at the professionalism of the player. If it's dodgy, get rid of them. The club is a reflection of who Simeone was as a player. It was a Spanish side playing like and Italian one. As for the actual tactics, yes, Simeone has used a 442/4411/4222/42211 in the bulk of his matches in charge. I think that was his comfort zone. All the same, he's used a very aggressive 433 in matches against clearly inferior clubs, and 451/4141 in tough Champions League matches. The things that are unwavering are the core concepts. 1.) Never let the other side attack down the middle. 2.) Use the touchline as your friend; push the opposition wide and trap once they're there. 3.) Win the ball in the middle 3rd and attack very directly from there, hopefully getting in behind the opponent quickly. 4.) If the ball is won in the defending 3rd, never boot it aimlessly, play out of the back. 5.) Outside backs, not midfielders provide the width and will cross often and sometimes early. Use this advise to set up a Simeone tactic and you should be most of the way there. Simeone's sides never played cautiously or on the counter except for on occasion in the Champions League or maybe in his 1-2 years in La Liga. Rather, they were usually balanced or sometimes even positive, with a lower line of engagement. At least thus far in 2019-20, Simeone has evolved. Atleti are no longer inferior to Barca and Real. In fact it's pretty clear that they've surpassed their Madrid rivals in terms of the quality of the first 11. They have a beautiful new stadium that they fill and they have had Champions League money coming in for 7 years, so there's no point in sitting back any longer. They are an elite side and their style of play reflects it.
  10. jc, I'm very well aware of how formations work in FM. I just went back and watched the match up until the two red cards and both Jean and I are incorrect. Simeone lined his side up in a VERY unique 4312/433 which likely cannot be replicated in FM. The central defenders are bog standard with short passing. Outside of them there were two complete wingbacks on attack (very!). The midfield was where it became interesting as all three players were in the DM strata. Partey appears to have been a halfback, while Koke and Saul moved wide in possession to cover for the space left by the outside backs. They also acted as deep playmakers and the central defenders seemed partnered with them in building out of the back. Neither ventured too far forward. I'm not sure what their role would be in FM. Up top is also a bit challenging to replicate. Out of possession Lemar stayed central and slightly deeper than Morata and Felix, but not always. In attack there was lots of movement and position changes. He might be a Support Striker, but I fear that role might drop him too deep. False 9? Morata dropped deeper than slightly deeper than Felix, but not much as both stayed pretty high up the pitch. Maybe Pressing Forward on support for him. Felix was more advanced and less involved in defending, so Advanced Forward seems right for him. This is the same shape as Simeone used for part of the pre-season match against Real. We'll see if he sticks with it.
  11. Nope, I watched the match. It was a 433 from the outset. Simeone has done something similar in low key cup matches against side that bunker and by rep that's what he expected from Getafe. Simeone was trying to flood the midfield but Bordales, who's a brilliant manager, simply tucked and dropped. From a tactical standpoint it was a brilliant match.
  12. That screenshot was from the season opener last weekend. I think that the point is that Atletico appear to be playing a very different formation, very much a 433. Simone is flexible and apparently evolutionary.
  13. Thanks for the input. I was not only basing the use of Gosling on his greater number of starts, but more so on what is written in this article. https://www.football365.com/news/tactics-teaching-and-talent-bournemouths-transformation
  14. I've watched a ton of Atleti matches since Simeone became manager, and while there are general principles such as narrow/vertically compressed defending and quick, often direct movement in possession, the actual match day instructions tend to be quite specific to the opponent. There are certain players, Koke, Saul and to a degree Partey who are positioned to either counter specific opponents or exploit weaknesses. Another really critical aspect would be the use of the opposition instructions as this is something that Simeone would spend countless hours on if FM and reality were the same. Getting the traps right is intricate. I think that this something that Experienced Defender is alluding to. mp_87 is certainly correct when he says that only a certain personality will succeed under Simeone, and I will also assert that he is quick to part ways with a player if he doesn't see a full commitment. Lastly, while Atleti line up in 4-4-2 the vast majority of the time, Simeone is willing to change it up to a 4-5-1/4-3-3 if he thinks that there's a need. A few years back in a cup match against a lower division side they played what was very close to a narrow 4-3-3 and pressed and trapped relatively high up the pitch.
  15. I think that we might be correcting some of the "tactical nonsense" to which AFC referred to. I'm going to keep tinkering with the concepts discussed in two parallel leagues and see how it goes. - OS
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