[Creating A Tactic - Step By Step]

It's an intersting transition you have made to two wingers.

Despite my last post stating I am likely to stick with this tactic I have moved away due to a poor run of injuries. I was tempted to 'magically heal them' but decided to stick with the game proper and just switched tactics.

I make the comment as I have been playing around with other formations that are a little more traditional and I have tried to bring with me what I learnt about this formation (WM). I opted for a simple 4141DM and was getting a little frustrated with it but then I played around with the front three and set myself up with two wingers. One (S) and one (A) and the game play was great. Defense was really stretched, there was space for incoming midfield to attach and I massively dominated the last 14 minutes and grabbed the winner goal from a cross from the far winger to the other winger that had cut in.

I found with the WM and my team the passing around the box was amazing but the box was just packed with players so it often took an amazing worldie to win a game. It early days for me with two wingers but it really does seem to deliver the space. Now it's just about how best to exploit it.

I'm running a auto 100 year game in the background so can't post a picture but am running with this

AF(A)

 

Winger (S)                                 Winger (A)

 

CM(S)               MEZ(A)

 

WB(A/S)        DC(C)        DC(S)        WB(S)/IWB(S)

 

The DC combo is interesting as they do not have 'hold position' like the normal DC(D) do. Thus they move around a little more offering better support. I also find that they mark a solo striker a little better,

[Creating A Tactic - Step By Step]

This might be more of a generic question rather than specific to this thread.

I originally started with a 1/3 setting on passing and tempo. SHort and lower. In one match I played I was closed down a lot and moved to the middle setting standard which fixed the closing down issue at the time.

But it got me wondering. If I can pass short and fast should I do it all the time? Is there a time that I should use slow? What do these situations look like in a game?

[Creating A Tactic - Step By Step]

The passing patterns on this tactic are amazing.

 

I'm bouncing around various different roles depending on who is available. One thing I like about this is that you can become more attacking by changing one or both of the IWB into WB(S) go give you more width and earlier crosses.

It's really interesting to see how it fares against other formations. I struggle with 451's but excel against 433 (DM Wide) as the overloads in the centre kill their DM and generally pull a CD out.

This season I have aquired a really decent (Division 1) IF on the AML position. He is also creative and can dribble and he is ripping defences apart with a small dribble then a defence splitting pass. I'm tempted to play with a AP(A) role on the AML position to see if i can force this more.

I think this is really a formation that I can stick with, Its the only one on2018 and 2019 that has really delivered what I want from a tactic. This means that I can truly start to build the team correctly. My MCR is a loanie and fits the role perfectly but has shooting of 9 which I really see in the game. He gets into great scoring positions but generally shoots straight at the keeper.

I'm going to look at the CF role as I have no players that really fit it well. DLF or poacher seems to suit my strikers better but it'll be something I have to explore ingame.

This is me at the moment:

[Creating A Tactic - Step By Step]

Curious.....

Why go from IW(S) to WB(S). With the space they have outside they get quite far forwards. If it was a case of gaining width but keeping defensive wouldn't WB(D) have been a better option? Is it something you looked and dismissed? ie a conscious choice?#

You have both gone for an RPM. Are you looking for the creative side of the player here? ie killer balls or is it other aspects of the role you like?

I am playing in the lower leagues and I have players that have high suitability for the MEZ and RPM roles but lack one key stat in each role. The Mez has shooting of 7 and the RPM has passing of 11. Thus I have swapped them around and it's evened it out for me however I've had to switch out the RPM role for CM(S). Hence the curiosity around the RPM role.

I've played a number of games like this and would I'm finding it quite sensitive to PPM's. Though this is clearly something I'll need to look for moving forwards if I stick with the formation. My WB's both get 'get forwards' my wingers have 'cut inside'.

LAM

[Creating A Tactic - Step By Step]

On 13/02/2019 at 05:21, Cleon said:

Be warned though, this is a very long read and will contain many different parts to it. So if that isn’t up your street you might want to consider tapping out now.

 

Can't wait..........

 

Been back about a week now and am enjoying the new setup of the tactics page for 2019 and am trying something different this year, Normally I'm fairly attacking but I recently read through your old "Art of Counter Attacking" (at some point I'll work out how to link old threads) and the way the players patiently, when starting deeper with an (S) role, supported around the box was a revelation. I know Herne talks about those "lightbulb" moments. That was one for me.

The realisation that I don't need 4 players in the box and then wonder why my remaining two MC's aren't making forward runs in was a joyous moment,

Still struggling with a number of aspects of the game but I always take a huge amount from your threads buddy.

Will be reading through this and many others over the coming days....

and.... as always.... awesome work!

 

*EDIT*

Though I am questioning my motivation to read further when you failed to mention Spurs along side Liverpool and Man C

 

 

[The 4231 Explained]

1 hour ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Looking at your success, I wouldn't change a thing. Keep going with what works...

Ha... thanks. As I said. This isn't about making it work. It's about understanding it.

@summatsupeer

Thanks for the feedback. Though, isn't that what these threads are for. Take the tactic, tweak it, break it and then learn it. I'm just obviously at the break it stage......

Reality is that I need to do two things now. Rethink what I want from this tactic as I really keen to get my young IF scoring but Kane is my talisman and really he should be the focus. Secondly, I made an observation a few days back that I thought my team were running it way to much and I've just look through their PPM's and 'run with ball' in some shape or variet is loaded across the board. This is one of the reasons I am not seeing as much passing and I also think it's pushing players into odd positions.

I'm going to create another save off the current game and remove a few PPM's and see how it plays out. If it works I'll restore and try to 'unlearn' them. My two wingers both like to cut in too....... that aint gonna help.

 

 

[The 4231 Explained]

As a general rule of thumb I always copy your tactics to start with as it gives me a base understanding of how it should work. Being Spurs I am blessed with a wide range of players so playing any kind of formation/tactic is possible.

What I'm trying to do now is understand why (and yes, I did mean DLF and not DLP ) my DLF(A) does not work but the DLF(S) does. Clearly sitting deep means he will see more of the ball and whether individually or otherwise Kane (or whomever plays in that role) will do better and bring others into the game. However his goals tend to be hero shots rather than based on a tactical brief.

In terms of not getting results I'm not there, in fact it's the complete opposite. My team is very dominant just not playing the way I want. I'm not posting this to prove a points as winning games is not the issue. It's my understanding of how certain dynamics are working in the game.

I'm frustrated with what I see and am struggling to change it. Last season DLF(A) worked. This season it doesn't but DLF(S) does. However that has a knock on effect.

On thing I am noticing as I look at things more closely is that many of my players like running with the ball and despite decent stats to do so generally do not fare well when doing it.

I'm going to push on with the DLF(S) but will try and work out how to set others up around him. I think I need to play around in the PPI's a little. For instance Ali is great in the Seg Vol role but loves shooting from distance all the time. On many occasions it is down to not having options but not always. I think his PPM comes into play around arriving late. I think by the time he gets there everyone else (who doesn't have that role) is already there.

I also think I need to sit back and really think about what I want to see from the team. All well and good saing it's frustrating......... but what isn't? what looks good?

ps. No, I don't think you'rebeing arsey.

 

 

 

[The 4231 Explained]

On 30/06/2018 at 09:21, Cleon said:

I see this often even in real life football but why? I mean, if the striker isn't involved much why do people automatically think that changing the player or role will help? If he's not seeing much of the ball and isn't really involved then this is down to the team not giving him the service he needs. Changing the role might address this ever so slightly but it will still be the same unless you sort out the supply issues.

This quote was in response to me changing the DLP(A) to (S) if the striker is not involved in play.

Given your response can you advise how you would handle this as it is proving more and more common as I entered the 2nd half of season two and teams are becoming more and more defensive. The two soloutions I use which work(ish) is to go DLP(S) or CF(S) which gives him roaming. Or I switch Kane to the IF(A) role and bring my other striker into the FC position.

You mention that its about supply but if there is no supply then something has to change. I can change the roles around him ie the IF(A) to IF(S) but in your tactic this would pull the focus away from the IF who is setup to score. Riskier passes will involve someone going TQ/AP which will then pull play to them.

The DM's are already at max attack in (A) and (S) respectively. The other option would be to go 'control' to push play up and effectively bring the game to him rather than him into the game or start using some PPM's 'riskier passes'.

The 'control' element appeals to me but early in the thread you mentioned that its one hell of a change to make as it changes the entire team rather than a player or two.

Thoughts?

 

*EDIT*

Would a change in Shape help? Move to fluid to compress play? Would it work both ways (kinda) that it will pull him back into the game a little but also push the game to him?

[The 4231 Explained]

Clearly the issue started much earlier than the tactics screen. I wanted a pacey player and bought one...... then changed the tactics around him!

I had a really long reply bouncing around in my head but they say a picture paints a thousand words:

Interestingly we are defensively so much stronger too as we were not losing possession high up the pitch.

The overlapping on the Left wing (i mirrored your setup) was outstanding to watch. Both of the players i had in the AML role like to step inside (just a little) so they dragged the defence over too,

I do need to find a winger that likes staying wide though..... and sadly I do not really have anyone coming through the ranks.

Because I had not crammed the middle of the pitch the DM's and AMC all had space. They did cross over a little but not as much and because of that I could leave the DM's on (S) and (A).

I'ts quite incredible how two decisions can wreck havoc.

1. I bought the wrong player

2. I changed the tactics to suit him..... just one role.

[The 4231 Explained]

On 15/11/2017 at 07:57, oakesypvfc said:

 

*cant get rid of the quote bit as I am refering to Cleons reply.

Hey,

Thats a hell of a reply to sit down with my morning coffee to . I appreciate the detail in there.

Currently the tactic is an oustanding success. The goals are pretty much scored by Kane as DLP(A) or Song AML-IF(A) and primarily consist of headers and taps ins. Its amazing to watch however.... somewhat one dimensional.

Regular changes I make are to the DM roles where I will often switch from (S) to (D) or from (A) to (S) on the respective roles. However I imagine (as I will need to watch this) this is probably a by-product of the overloaded front line.

My keeper is (sweeper) because he is able to do so but also he is capable of stopping the odd long throughball that my defenders miss now and again. I'm sure it'll come as no real surprise but mostof my goals concended (which are not many) come from long/through balls from deep.

The fundamental change I have made, and I guess this shows just how impactful it can be on a team, is the AMR role. I do not have a winger (well I do but I do not like him and am trying to sell him). My thought process on the change was because I had enough crosses coming in already that I didn't want another playing doing it who simple was as good. The player I have in the role is oustanding at dribbling and have massive pace. Thus when he gets it he acts like a winger, he runs through players, to the byline and crosses however he does this in the channels and the result is impresssive. It's either a short cross to the back post of a pullback to the penalty spot. The conversion of when he does this is probably a goal a game. Though looking at his stats they do not seem quite as strong this season but you'll see his key passes.

I did have him in the Winger role and he played that role like he should however he cannot cross. I know his stats look like he can but those assists and key passes will all be passes from just inside or on the edge of the box. You'll see why, the winger role coupled with his PPM's, I changed his role. I used the RAD role as it has all the PPI's that suit the player - dont cross, run with ball, short passes.

I completely get what you are saying about the front being overloaded. Generally I'll check stats at around the 20 minute mark and if my DLP(A) has not seen enough of the ball at this point I'll switch to either (S) or CF(S) to bring him into the game however I can see now how this will impact on the AM(S) role.

I appreciate that the issues are of my own making but the tactic is excelling (though with minor issues) but he is the single role that struggles. You can see Kane and Son here:

Kane

Son:

Interestingly Son doesn't have the impact that your IF has but this may be down to Kane being just so dominant. Even in the (S) roles Kane will score and dominate most.

I guess it may all really be aiming towards a little bit of a tactical re think. I do not have a winger that I want to use. Do you think the AP(S) role with the PPI 'stay wider' will counter all of this a little. It will sit him deeper, keep him wider but still allow him to cut in later and may even provide more over lapping space?

I just got excited here as I have been looking at one of my players a little one dimensionally. Fekir:

If I mirror the tactic to the Right instead Fekir could easily do the Winger role and offer much more and also my Left wing back is outstanding and is amazing as a CWB:

 

I'll try that and see how it does. I can see why the Winger(S) role is important now as it is about space. As always with me, and clearly with you (Cleon) and others, the results are great but its how we get them that are important.

Though, once again, this is likely to meant that I'm selling some players. Luckily I just hit January!!!

However lets assume that I do have the AML/R roles on (A) with a DLP(S). How can I use an AMC in that? Or should I pull himback to an attacking MCA role?

 

Demonstrating the success:

 

Lee

 

[The 4231 Explained]

Eriksen really struggles in this role as he is bullied to much and losses possession way to much. The stats are from Ali.

I just had a quick check through the form and off all the players have have had a stint in that position only one game produced a 7.00+rating and that was Ali when he scored 4 goals in the Carabou Cup.

The next lowest rating in the team is 7.24 and Ali is in 6.92 which makes him the lowest in the squad. If I am going direct against a massively attacking team use direct passing and have him on AMC(A) or SS(A) then he'll do well.

Interestingly. He demonstrates none of his PPM's in this role but loves to shoot from distance and he is surprisingly inaccurate.

It may very well be linked to my no.2 concern about attacks from the flanks. Maybe the wingbacks are pulling the play from the SV(A) and DM(D/S).

I'm loathe to change the role to AP(S/A) as I do not want to force play through them.

 

My whole setup is very similar to yours. The only changes I make are to the FC role which depending on their involvement in the game I will move to a DLP(S) rather than (A). My AMR role is normally Rad(A) or AP(A) with running often on as I do no have a winger but have two pacey guys that excel in short crosses (passes) from the edge of the box.

 

Thoughts?

 

[The 4231 Explained]

As an old head returning to the game and a long time fan of your work Cleon I have to say this is by far your most effective thread for me.

My results have been amazing but the pleasing thing is that i can now 'generally' get the team to play the way I want them too.

However I am having a few issues.

1. I cannot seem to get  performance out of any player I have in the AMC position. Unless they score their ratings are sub 7 and, more importantly, they do not really seem to contribute much to the game. I'm trying to avoid playing an AP role so as to not pull play to them intentionally. I have three players that work this spot. Eriksen, Ali and Fekir. All offer something different but all rate low when there.

If for any reason I am playing with a counter mentality or sitting deeper and pressing less (against Liverpool) then the AMC(A) works well but that is the only time I manage to pull anything out of the role.

2. Almost all my assist are coming from crosses or wide passes (mini crosses). I've recently bought a pacey AMR into the role and have him as Reg rather than AMR W(A) and its joyous to watch but I am keen to understand how others are finding their assits.

Based on the two comments I'm likely to start trying the AP(S/A) role but as I said I don't want to force play through that position.

Does Eng/Treq pull the play in the same fashion?

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Have you tested the game with the new patch?

Most of the problems I've seen people post about, at least in my opinion, were related to players dribbling with the ball to much. Most often they would run into a bunch of players and be left with no option but to shoot.

[The SFraser Memorial Thread - Links to all the discussions and guides.]

Just gotta bump this Legend of a poster............

For those new to the gameb (or struggling), bookmark this page.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

1) I've seen this, although not too much and, thankfully, mainly from the opposition. Often things like this are indicative of some other problem and it's just the way it manifests in FM, the likely problem is that your FBs don't have, or don't see, or can't hit, any options so the hoof downfield is the result. You've already tried to solve this and I can't really add any solution. HUB sounds like it but that feels just plain wrong for a full back. What's their passing range like? I suspect you haven't fiddled too much with it so probably not the problem but worth considering. Also, what about tempo and mentality? If either is too high they might struggle to make decent decisions. Of course, if they are poo on the ball they'll always struggle with decisions anyway.

2) Sounds like a through ball / drilled cross to me. Requires good ball skills and vision from your wide players and great anticipation and movement from your attackers. It's an incredibly difficult to play to pull off because it requires everybody to get in the right places and pinpoint accuracy in the passing, the only thing that should be easier is the finish because, although likely under pressure, the angle and position should be incredibly favourable. I'd lower the crossing and shooting but up the through balls and make sure the guys in the middle are actually making runs. They might be well marked though.

Interestingly I have both of these issues too.

1) Along with my keepers terrible distribution, I am find that my FB's are making terrible decisions, not making obvious (and normaly open passes) and will generally turn around, back into the opposition winger and either pass back to the keeper (rinse and repeat) or lose the ball.

I have a basic idea about tactics so I have tested numerous things, tempo, HUB, short > Direct, dropped other players into roles that would present passing option. AND it's not as though a 451 (41221) doesn't present passing options for a FB!

2) This is also a source of annoyance for me too. That said, I am working on some that might produce some results. I got the inspiration for it from the Anchor Man role oddly enough. With the Anchor Man we basically say "I don't want you to do anything, apart from tackle for the ball and make some simple passes. I DON'T want you to cross the ball or make throughball passes or shoot from distance"...... and the rarely....rarely....rarely....rarely....rarely.... instruction was born.

So, you might be able to see where I am going with this. A player that is attacking (RFD-O) and dribbles the ball into the box (RWB-M/O) and does not cross (Cross-R), or make a through ball pass (TB-R) ends up making a simple pass or takes a shot.

A pullback pass when in the box is rarely a cross nor is it a through ball as a throughball is described as a pass that unleashes a player behind another (or something like that). So, my theory is, with Run from Deep and Run with Ball both set to Often or mixed, with NO longshots, NO crossing and NO throughballs, will basically give a player a set of simple instructions..... very similar to those of an Anchor Man......however we have added a little so we are saying - get forward, run with the ball and either shoot near the goal or make a simple pass.

I hasten to add this (at the end), this is early testing and the two players I really want to test this with are both injured.

The principal behind the idea is that the last pass should be simple and we're trying to make sure they don't try anything else. A throughball often, will force them more than likely to make an early pass, a cross from the byline (in my view) almost conflicts with the throughball instruction.....

& Jumbled.... I'm tired and it's late and I've been drinking since the rugby..... i'll tidy thi s mess up tomorrow.

LAM

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

4-1-2-2-1

DLs DCd DCd DRs

DMCs (on DM)

MC (DLPs) MC (BWMd)

AML (APa) AMR (Wa)

ST (Poach-a)

Sometimes my Striker is a DLP and somtimes the AML and AMR are on Support as well. Any of those settings and nothing changes

Passing is on default.

Crossing is on Float

Rigid Philosophy and Standard Strategy

I play as Walsall in League One. It is now 2016.

What else do you need? I watch all the games on full.

Your roles are to attacking. You front four are bombing off up the field and leaving the rest of the team with passing options that can not make.

Try some 'support' roles in there, particularly with the AMC. If you want players forward then ask an MC to get forward often.

*EDIT*

With a DMC, a DLP you might want to ask your Winbacks for get further forward. This will suppport the attacking players but also provide easier side/foward balls from your defence.

**EDIT*

How much of the tactic is your own and how much from the TC?

It sounds as though you might have timewasting set a little to high too.

When players run out of options, they will generally hoof the ball up field. As you get further up field, there are less places to hoof it too, therefore they iwll look to shoot (hence why many people complain about to many long shots) or take it to the corner.

There may very well be passes 'on', but do your players have the ability to 'see' it (creativity), the ability to make it (passing, technical) and the mental attributes to actual take the option (decisions)?

Some passes look very easy when viewing from certain angles, but when you think about a player on the field, can he even see his teammate? is the opposition blocking him (good positioning), is the ball on the correct foot to make the pass.

I'm not suggesting that you're getting it wrong each time, but have a look at the specific play you mention, rewind a few times and really try to understand what is happening.