Purist Possession Maniac Having Issues (4-1-4-1/2-3-5)

[sam.mcwhorter]

Hi everyone! In advance, sorry for the monologue. I've gotten fairly good at winning in FM, but not with tactics I like. I always end up with really uptempo stuff, or inside forwards running from deep, pressing machines, etc. I'm playing as Spurs in a new playthrough and wanted to do something a bit different. I want to choke the opposition on the edge of their own area for basically the whole game (and score enough for it to not draw or lose to the counter all the time).

I've made decent progress, but I'm at a bit of a loss at this point. Against bad teams, we dominate (our avg. possession in our Europa League Group is not where I want it yet, but about 61% on average), although a lot of the goals we score are just "we're better than you" goals (headers from very wide crosses, set pieces, long shots, etc.). Every once in a while we score a maravilloso gol, but not often. Below is the setup I'm currently using, and even against the best teams in the Prem we hold around 50-52% possession with our strange 4-1-4-1, but we create nothing (also, I really want to aim for 70% even in the Prem overall eventually).

Here are my concepts: I want my wingers to stretch the opposition, even deep into the final third, my striker to split their centerbacks and push them back, and have my attacking midfielders exploit the gaps in between them. The fullbacks dip into midfield to give me a 2-3-5 formation in attack, and make neat little triangles for circulation. My platonic ideal goal to score is basically (other than the chaos of quick circulation finding a pocket) moving the ball quickly from side to side and then the opposite side winger beating a man and either pulling back to an AM, or finding the ST or W through corridor of uncertainty. Slightly less preferred, and not sure I've seen someone be able to replicate in FM, is the de Bruyne to Sterling goal where a short cross is swung from the edge of the box onto the run of a winger (though in this case, I want my IWB to make this cross). Here is what I don't want, but am getting a lot of: floated crosses from wide, long shots from the edge of the box, a series of really ****** passes that give the opposition the ball. Would love to hear different thoughts/ideas!

(Just to be clear, I know I am setting myself a handicap. There are a million easy ways to get this formation to dominate the premier league with worse players, I'm just bored of that. Also, no, the defense is not an issue, though I think it could get better if my players didn't just meander around and then give up and try to chuck a hopeless cross into the box. CBs on stopper to raise their mentality to cautious so they will pass the dreaded halfway line, not sure it's working though.)

(Things I've noticed but am not sure are a problem: The striker is always deeper than the other four on average positions, the IWBs still overlap quite a bit which is odd, and often my players will just straight up turn down open passes (specifically to the AMs) who are in the gap between two defenders and could either make a run or draw defensive attention to send another player through)

Edited May 4 by sam.mcwhorter

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, sam.mcwhorter said:

 Below is the setup I'm currently using, and even against the best teams in the Prem we hold around 50-52% possession with our strange 4-1-4-1, but we create nothing (also, I really want to aim for 70% even in the Prem overall eventually).

The positional play changes mean you can play a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and have the players rotate forward in possession into a similar shape you have now.

Take a read through here:

Still looks like a tactic very influenced by Plug and Play ideals. Based on what you're saying you're looking for I'd try using IWB's on support roles in a 4-2-3-1 with a SV(s) in the middle of the park. That will give you a very progressive, possession oriented approach (similar to how Tottenham set up IRL). 

Other things to consider:

• If you want to maximize possession consider a Forward who doesn't run the channels like a PF(a). Whenever he makes such a run and is pick out the ball will turn over. A Poacher will chill in the box and let you move the opposition around while you find your moment. The other option would be to play with a Facilitating 9
  • Pass into Space TI doubles down on these turnovers.
• Stopper/Cover or double defend duty BPD will leave you high and dry (and conceding) less often.
• Traditional wingers on attack role can also be counterproductive to possession (although nice here for the width they give). Drop them to support roles and tinker with the PIs on them instead.

Edited May 4 by Cloud9

[sam.mcwhorter]

That's interesting, I'll take a look at what some of those changes do and report back! I'm using the current positions actually more for defense, as I've found a 4-1-4-1 is often a really effective press- it's essentially a 4-3-3 in practice with specific attack/defense structures. Absolutely love the idea of the SV in the middle, and the change off a PF (that's definitely my usual way of doing things getting in the way).

[CJ_Randell]

Personally I think there are too many attacking duties in your tactic, this naturally increases the level of risk these players will take. 

You've also got 2 BPD's and a DLP who are hard coded to play more risky passes. 

I'd change the IWB's to Su and change the CB's to normal CD's rather than BPD's. 

This should reduce the risk the players take and help increase control of the game. 

[Cloud9]

13 hours ago, CJ_Randell said:

Personally I think there are too many attacking duties in your tactic, this naturally increases the level of risk these players will take. 

You've also got 2 BPD's and a DLP who are hard coded to play more risky passes. 

I'd change the IWB's to Su and change the CB's to normal CD's rather than BPD's. 

This should reduce the risk the players take and help increase control of the game. 

All good points  Only thing I'd add is that the DLP is still primarily a recycler of the possession, even on support duty. I think the defend duty comes w/out the take more risk tag, but personally I quite prefer the support duty version in most situations.

Edited May 4 by Cloud9

[sam.mcwhorter]

Thanks for both for reading my madness and getting me out of my own head! Just got my first winger to winger low cross goal (against man city no less), and not perfectly happy with things but we're moving in the right direction. For that specifically it seems the cut inside with ball instruction was really important for the wingers, as they're now receiving the ball with a head start on the fullback and running toward the edge of the penalty area. Now to see how high I can drag my possession statistics!

[nhami]

The tactic is okay for playing possession football. The only problem I see in Team Instructions is you could have Wide Width instead of Balanced Width and Underlap instead of Overlap.

Wide Width because you have Play Through Middle and with Wide Width you would stretch the play wide to open space in the centre for the striker. With Balanced Width the ball is played half the time to the centre and half the time to the flanks and when the ball is played directly to the centre that space is already crowded.

Underlap because you are using Inverted Full-Backs.
Another thing that is maybe a problem is the Wingers in Attack duty. They are receiving the ball when the opposition defence is already crowded because of the Slow Tempo and then because of the Dribble More and Attack Mentality, they would run to the byline and have to create chances for themselves and other players alone. You could either use Dribble Less Team Instructions or change to the Wingers Support Duty to isolate them less from the rest of the team.

If you want the AMs to score change them to Shadow Striker or Attacking Midfielder with Attack Duty and Move into the Channels. This would make them attack the gap between the Full-Back and the Centre-Back. Attack Duty AMs are actually good with Short Passes and Slow Tempo because since they come from behind they often give an element of surprise inside the box and are often not picked by the defenders.