A little help with a new tactic

[shalev900]

Hi. I'm currently in a journeyman save in my 2nd season with Frankfurt

in the first season I managed to win the bundesliga and Europa League with this tactic that utillized mainly my right winger Daraba(12/13) and my Striker Lenormand(18/5) and Gustavo Sa that i bought played like a beast (18/9)

 

Daraba

 

Lenormand

 

Sa

 

I tried with this tactic mainly to use the striker great speed and OTB and my winger dribbling ability and the rest of the team was there to mostly supplement them and Sa just outplayed my expectations.

 

for this season I bought this player and I want to utilize his abilities to create a more possesion oriented tactic with him coming down as a False 9 or DLF to create space for Lenormand that will play as a left winger and Daraba as a right winger

 

the main problem for me is that I currently in the seventh year in my save and I haven't used wingers once until last season and even than it was only one.

I want to create a tactic the makes Nielsen come down and hover aroung the outside of the box and take a defender to him so that either he makes room for runs for Lenormand behind the lines or my SS can try to enter the opened space between him and the goal plus create a triangle with Daraba and Sa So I created this tactic but I'm very unsure about it and how to roles would work together and would like to hear some thoughts about improving it.

I thought about maybe playing with 3 CB's with no FB's and using the WCB role but I have never used it and I dont know how to utilize it correctly. (I have a RCB and LCB that would be very good with the role)

 

[Cloud9]

1 hour ago, shalev900 said:

Hi. I'm currently in a journeyman save in my 2nd season with Frankfurt

in the first season I managed to win the bundesliga and Europa League with this tactic that utillized mainly my right winger Daraba(12/13) and my Striker Lenormand(18/5) and Gustavo Sa that i bought played like a beast (18/9)

 

Daraba

 

Lenormand

 

Sa

 

I tried with this tactic mainly to use the striker great speed and OTB and my winger dribbling ability and the rest of the team was there to mostly supplement them and Sa just outplayed my expectations.

 

for this season I bought this player and I want to utilize his abilities to create a more possesion oriented tactic with him coming down as a False 9 or DLF to create space for Lenormand that will play as a left winger and Daraba as a right winger

 

the main problem for me is that I currently in the seventh year in my save and I haven't used wingers once until last season and even than it was only one.

I want to create a tactic the makes Nielsen come down and hover aroung the outside of the box and take a defender to him so that either he makes room for runs for Lenormand behind the lines or my SS can try to enter the opened space between him and the goal plus create a triangle with Daraba and Sa So I created this tactic but I'm very unsure about it and how to roles would work together and would like to hear some thoughts about improving it.

I thought about maybe playing with 3 CB's with no FB's and using the WCB role but I have never used it and I dont know how to utilize it correctly. (I have a RCB and LCB that would be very good with the role)

 

Amazing hair there.

I would say your double pivot could cause some issues on a mid block. Your CAR will sit wide and it's a tough ask to have an AP in a double pivot. DLP(s) will give you a more defensively responsible pivot playmaker. Pair him w/a BWM(D) or a CM(s) and you'll have a stable foundation to work from. 

CWB + Libero leaves the two real defenders fairly isolated. Would try picking between the two. 

Edited February 5 by Cloud9

[Andros]

I feel that the formation, roles and duties are over-complicated for me (especially the 1st tactic).  That does not mean this kind of thing cant work, but to me it feels like there is an element of choosing roles and duties to match the players and not the whole package, or seeing combinations that can work together (eg wb and car) but not using that in a cohesive package (all of which i have done many times before!!).

 

Consider this: open up a 3rd tactical slot in the game, and place each player where you think they will be in the attacking phase when you might lose possession and be counter attacked,  See anything?

[shalev900]

11 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

Amazing hair there.

I would say your double pivot could cause some issues on a mid block. Your CAR will sit wide and it's a tough ask to have an AP in a double pivot. DLP(s) will give you a more defensively responsible pivot playmaker. Pair him w/a BWM(D) or a CM(s) and you'll have a stable foundation to work from. 

CWB + Libero leaves the two real defenders fairly isolated. Would try picking between the two. 

I will give it a go 

Do you think maybe changing the Libero to a BPD would help with the build up?

I'm just not sure that the BWM would have enough passing options if teams would press up high and was looking dor one of the CB to offer another passing option

 

11 hours ago, Andros said:

I feel that the formation, roles and duties are over-complicated for me (especially the 1st tactic).  That does not mean this kind of thing cant work, but to me it feels like there is an element of choosing roles and duties to match the players and not the whole package, or seeing combinations that can work together (eg wb and car) but not using that in a cohesive package (all of which i have done many times before!!).

 

Consider this: open up a 3rd tactical slot in the game, and place each player where you think they will be in the attacking phase when you might lose possession and be counter attacked,  See anything?

You are spot on lol I was trying to get the best players on my team to shine and use their strengths to my advantage as much as I could and the rest of tactic was mainly to support this.

I'm doing it because I think it's a bit more challenging than using a system that I would need to just plug in players. In the end it's only the beginning of my 2nd season with them and when I see a player that catches my eye like Nielsen I am trying to alter the tactic a bit in order to bring them in and through that build a system over the long run

[Cloud9]

9 hours ago, shalev900 said:

I will give it a go 

Do you think maybe changing the Libero to a BPD would help with the build up?

I'm just not sure that the BWM would have enough passing options if teams would press up high and was looking dor one of the CB to offer another passing option

 

You are spot on lol I was trying to get the best players on my team to shine and use their strengths to my advantage as much as I could and the rest of tactic was mainly to support this.

I'm doing it because I think it's a bit more challenging than using a system that I would need to just plug in players. In the end it's only the beginning of my 2nd season with them and when I see a player that catches my eye like Nielsen I am trying to alter the tactic a bit in order to bring them in and through that build a system over the long run

BPD will give you more defensive structure compared to the libero since he won't step into midfield. You can stick dribble more on him if you'd like him to progress the ball a bit more than just passing. 

In a 4-3-3 a CAR on the side of the CWB would be great. CWB is the most attacking variant of WB and the CAR is a natural partner. He will babysit, providing width and cover defensively, so the CWB has the platform to roam and create. As a 6 in a double pivot, the CAR is leaving the other holding midfielder isolated to screen the center of the park. In your case that's not a defensive midfielder at all, but a passenger AP. Personally I would change your formation to a 4-3-3 to support that dynamic, you're not really benefiting a ton from the asymmetrical setup (unlike in the first formation) here and when sitting in a mid block you need to sort out your defensive structure as a priority.

You could try keeping the CAR if you really want to, but again you'd need to sort out a defensively responsible partner ASAP. IMO the better option would be the SV in the DM strata alongside a DM(s).

If you like the current 4-2-3-1, I'd change the pivot as suggested and then move the SS central behind the F9. F9 is SS is a great combo anyways to move into the others space and if you're concerned about buildup issues this will leave the left hand pivot player a little less isolated. 

If you're looking to run a CM double pivot with a mid block I'd also recommend running a high defensive line to play to its strengths (winning the ball higher up the pitch). Otherwise yea just drop the DMs back and be a bit more stable. 

Edited February 5 by Cloud9

[Andros]

To build on what cloud9 is saying:

 

Before I mentioned imagining where the players would be when you have the ball.  I think the 1st tactic would look something like this:

Resulting in:

And the 2nd:

Resulting in:

In both cases You would be pretty open to counter attacks.

 

A great article someone on these forums shared a few years ago is: https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/10/14/21515543/re-imagining-frank-lampards-chelsea-a-positional-play-game-model

 

TLDR: the suggestion here is that when you have the ball you could be aiming for essentially 3 defenders, 2 balance players and 5 in attack (2 creating width, 1 or 2 attacking the goal).  Some examples the website gives are:

For example in the liverpool picture, Van dijk, gomez and fabinho are the defenders, wijnaldum and henderson the balance players, trent and robertson the width, firmino the creator and mane and salah attacking the goal.  For man city the difference is that there is an extra creator and 1 less attacking the goal.  For chelsea the defender moves from DM to CB.

 

The website argued that chelsea (that year) were too much like:

I wonder if your current roles and duties are more like the last picture of chelsea than the other ones?

 

EDIT: I just looked at the PPMs for the players you have provided.  1) Daraba has cut inside from both wings.  So this means he wont be really able to provide the width on the right, 2) Sa has gets forward whenever possible trait so he will be even further forward than i had thought.  Maybe more like this for the 1st tactic:

2nd:

Edited February 6 by Andros
Say PPMs

[shalev900]

11 hours ago, Andros said:

To build on what cloud9 is saying:

 

Before I mentioned imagining where the players would be when you have the ball.  I think the 1st tactic would look something like this:

Resulting in:

And the 2nd:

Resulting in:

In both cases You would be pretty open to counter attacks.

 

A great article someone on these forums shared a few years ago is: https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/features/2020/10/14/21515543/re-imagining-frank-lampards-chelsea-a-positional-play-game-model

 

TLDR: the suggestion here is that when you have the ball you could be aiming for essentially 3 defenders, 2 balance players and 5 in attack (2 creating width, 1 or 2 attacking the goal).  Some examples the website gives are:

For example in the liverpool picture, Van dijk, gomez and fabinho are the defenders, wijnaldum and henderson the balance players, trent and robertson the width, firmino the creator and mane and salah attacking the goal.  For man city the difference is that there is an extra creator and 1 less attacking the goal.  For chelsea the defender moves from DM to CB.

 

The website argued that chelsea (that year) were too much like:

I wonder if your current roles and duties are more like the last picture of chelsea than the other ones?

 

EDIT: I just looked at the PPMs for the players you have provided.  1) Daraba has cut inside from both wings.  So this means he wont be really able to provide the width on the right, 2) Sa has gets forward whenever possible trait so he will be even further forward than i had thought.  Maybe more like this for the 1st tactic:

2nd:

About what you said about Daraba and Sa. Daraba maybe have this trait but I rarely see him making those cuts inside that I am looking for him to do while having the ball at his feet that i gave him a PI to do it but he is way wider that i anticipated and gives a lot of great passes ti players getting into the box like my AP or AM. it's one of the main reason my AP scored 18 goals and AM scored 16, most of his assist were to one of them or a hockey assist because of it.
  Although see him cutting a lot for the wing to the center when he is off ball and getting behind the defence

About the shape when losing the ball. in the first tactic the DM is sitting like that and it creates a good "diamond" for me against counters + my left back is quite fast(16 pace) and is he usually get forward only when the attack is coming from his side and when it's on the other side he is staying back and it looks mostly like a 1-2 -2 "diamond" that transition to a 2-3 quickly with the IFB

here you can see it pretty good.

Daraba is here after a dribble on the wing, Sa is cutting inside while the AM is near him and running to the middle of the box. Sa is passing it to the striker Lenormand that in one touch scores it.

and Edu sanchez here is the LWB and you can see the diamond

16 hours ago, Cloud9 said:

BPD will give you more defensive structure compared to the libero since he won't step into midfield. You can stick dribble more on him if you'd like him to progress the ball a bit more than just passing. 

In a 4-3-3 a CAR on the side of the CWB would be great. CWB is the most attacking variant of WB and the CAR is a natural partner. He will babysit, providing width and cover defensively, so the CWB has the platform to roam and create. As a 6 in a double pivot, the CAR is leaving the other holding midfielder isolated to screen the center of the park. In your case that's not a defensive midfielder at all, but a passenger AP. Personally I would change your formation to a 4-3-3 to support that dynamic, you're not really benefiting a ton from the asymmetrical setup (unlike in the first formation) here and when sitting in a mid block you need to sort out your defensive structure as a priority.

You could try keeping the CAR if you really want to, but again you'd need to sort out a defensively responsible partner ASAP. IMO the better option would be the SV in the DM strata alongside a DM(s).

If you like the current 4-2-3-1, I'd change the pivot as suggested and then move the SS central behind the F9. F9 is SS is a great combo anyways to move into the others space and if you're concerned about buildup issues this will leave the left hand pivot player a little less isolated. 

If you're looking to run a CM double pivot with a mid block I'd also recommend running a high defensive line to play to its strengths (winning the ball higher up the pitch). Otherwise yea just drop the DMs back and be a bit more stable. 

Yeah currently I tried using your tips but It's not really working good enough and we don't have a lot of possesion and the build up is not good enough. the DM is too isolated and against the press his passes are not good enough.

I am not married to any kind of formation of a sort. I just want to try to incorporate my new player in the first line up to work well with my 3 other established "stars" and currently it is just not going well

do you think maybe I should try a whole different approach here? maybe the idea just sounds well in my head but not in the game

 

 

Edited February 6 by shalev900

[Cloud9]

5 hours ago, shalev900 said:

About what you said about Daraba and Sa. Daraba maybe have this trait but I rarely see him making those cuts inside that I am looking for him to do while having the ball at his feet that i gave him a PI to do it but he is way wider that i anticipated and gives a lot of great passes ti players getting into the box like my AP or AM. it's one of the main reason my AP scored 18 goals and AM scored 16, most of his assist were to one of them or a hockey assist because of it.
  Although see him cutting a lot for the wing to the center when he is off ball and getting behind the defence

About the shape when losing the ball. in the first tactic the DM is sitting like that and it creates a good "diamond" for me against counters + my left back is quite fast(16 pace) and is he usually get forward only when the attack is coming from his side and when it's on the other side he is staying back and it looks mostly like a 1-2 -2 "diamond" that transition to a 2-3 quickly with the IFB

here you can see it pretty good.

Daraba is here after a dribble on the wing, Sa is cutting inside while the AM is near him and running to the middle of the box. Sa is passing it to the striker Lenormand that in one touch scores it.

and Edu sanchez here is the LWB and you can see the diamond

Yeah currently I tried using your tips but It's not really working good enough and we don't have a lot of possesion and the build up is not good enough. the DM is too isolated and against the press his passes are not good enough.

I am not married to any kind of formation of a sort. I just want to try to incorporate my new player in the first line up to work well with my 3 other established "stars" and currently it is just not going well

do you think maybe I should try a whole different approach here? maybe the idea just sounds well in my head but not in the game

 

 

If the goal is to get the best out of those players I would try something new. 

I would say you have one star player in Sa, who is ready to go. The other 3 might become star players down the road, but they'll need to develop first. I would try a 4-3-3 with Sa as a Mezzala(a) where he can be the main creative force in the team (and utilize his athleticism). Put one of the developing players as a winger on his side of the pitch to pair with him. That will give you the bones of a structure that looks to build around the best player in your squad.

If you're concerned about build up play, staying away from the IFB (for an FB(s)) when you don't have an IWB could be helpful.

Edited February 6 by Cloud9