[FM24 - Athletic Club (Bilbao) - Loyalty and Long Term Saves!]

I've loved reading through other people's success with Bilbao with this that it's made me decide to do a save myself with them. I haven't managed Bilbao since the Llorente/Susaeta/Iturraspe etc. days so I'm sure I have a lot to do to catch up with what the squad is like now.

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on a tactic to run with them at the start?

I know after a few years it all depends on who you get coming through but what do people recommend going with for the first couple of seasons. I'm typically a pretty boring 433 guy but I don't know if the current squad would suit that.

Also, how do people develop their youngsters? Send them out on loan or put them in the B team. I've found in other saves that players going out on loan seem to develop a lot better but I haven't managed a club that have a B team in a professional league so don't know if they are better off staying so I can be control of their training as well.

Any advice would be great and I hope to add how I've got on with them on here as well.

[Building out from the 'wrong' side]

I'm currently playing with this tactic.

I've got team instructions for the keeper to distribute to CBs and to play out from the back. I thought that when we look to build from the back we would predominantly play through the BPD who would control from deep and rotate passes with the other CB/RB/DM while trying to find a way to push the ball into midfield or the wingers.

However I've found it is the left sided CB who is controlling the game. Over the last 3 games the LCB has averaged roughly 130 passes per game while the RCB has only averaged 85.

Is there something in this tactic that it causing this or am I not looking into the stats deeply enough to see if the BPD is actually controlling the game?

For extra information, I don't have any TI's like focus play down one side on just shorter passing, play out of defence and a higher tempo. 

[How to play with a slow and aging team?]

The simple answer is to not have a team full of old players. Buy/promote young players to provide energy around a few old players.

If you are adamant about having an old squad (for some kind of extra challenge) then you need to consider your limitations and try to address them. The biggest limitation obviously is the lack of ability to cover the pitch. Therefore I would create a tactic that uses roles that don't need to run a lot.

- IFB or IWB rather than traditional WB

- 'plain roles' like DM or CM rather than B2B or SV

- Playmaker roles typically drift over the pitch to provide an option to other players so I would avoid those roles personally

- A strike partnership (TF/P maybe) rather than a single striker so they aren't isolated on your own

I've never tried it personally so no idea if these points will actually help but that is the way I would approach it if I was in that position.

[Creating 2 strikers from a 1 striker tactic]

8 hours ago, thizaum said:

Okay...

Is this too far from what you are looking for? Surely it depends on TIs and mentality, but mainly I think that in order to achieve exactly what you are looking for, you'd need to tweak the PIs and be careful with the preferred moves.

That explains it perfectly. Whatever roles or instructions I use though seem to end up with a 3241 setup instead.

I find I then don't have enough of a threat up top so the midfield end up just rotating possession too much and the IF(a) takes up space that AM/AP would benefit from having to be the more creative force.

As you said, it might be that I need to play around with the PIs and the players traits rather than altering the tactic or roles being used.

I imagine someone like Salah would be a perfect candidate to try and get that movement from so I might do a bit of a trial with Liverpool to see if I can get that shape to work with them.

[Creating 2 strikers from a 1 striker tactic]

10 hours ago, thizaum said:

I think CM(a) is not an option.

AM(a), SS, Treq and IF(a) should all be good options.

Are you familiar with the "partnerships" article from Guide to FM? There's the concept of "creator" and "scorer", and there are different ways of achieving this. One of them is the number 9, the number 10, the false 9 and the false 10.

I get the impression that you are insisting on having a number 9 and a false 10 (so a 10 that acts as a 9) at the same time.

What you are looking for is having a false 9 and a false 10. So, as others said, your CF needs to be more of a creator (most likely, a support duty) and less of a scorer.

The treqs are kinda of an exception in this case, because they are both creators and scorers. So in theory, you could have both player (a CF and an AM, center or wide) as Treqs.

What I'm trying to do is create a 3-2-3-2 formation when in possession but from a tactic that only plays 1 natural striker so that when I am defending I can still defend in a 4231/433 shape and not leave 2 strikers up top. The closest I've got is using a 4231 with an IF(a) and a WB(s/a) behind them but I find the IF tucks in with the AM rather then partnering the striker so I end up in a 3241 shape instead.

I'm looking for any advice on creating a 3-2-3-2 formation when in possession from a 1 striker tactic. Think of my question as how do I turn a 4231 into a 3232 when in possession. Hopefully I'm explaining that a bit better.

[Creating 2 strikers from a 1 striker tactic]

I was wondering whether anyone has had any success with creating a tactic that formation wise is a 1 striker tactic (4231, 433 etc.) but when in possession it becomes a 2 striker tactic?

I generally use a slow possession based style and with roles like IFB, IWB, LIB, HB etc. I feel confident that I can make almost any shape with the defensive side of my team but I've found it impossible to get a 2nd player to join my striker when in possession of the ball. I thought IF(a), SS(a) or CM(a) would be the best options but I find they all like to arrive into the box late rather than get in there be there during the build up phase. Am I using the wrong roles or am I trying to do something that the current match engine just isn't able to do at the moment?

Any help/advice would be really welcome.

 

[Too safe in possession]

On 02/01/2024 at 04:31, CARRERA said:

There is almost no support from deeper areas, as both midfielders are on support and both wide defenders are on defend. Your team is most likely heavily outnumbered in attack. Also every single instruction in possession is about taking low risks and slowing down the play.

e.g. you ask your whole team to dribble less, but all of your attacking players are natural dribbling roles. Why is that? 

You also ask your team to play very disciplined in the final third, for what reason? 

Those are just two examples. What im trying to say is, that you need to allow your players taking some risk at one point to actually break down a defensive block. Especially in the final third. 

Thanks for the advice. I took off Be More Disciplined and Work Ball Into Box and saw almost instant results. We still have the control from the defence and midfield but the forward line are a lot more creative now that they have the freedom to do what they can do. I've kept the dribble less instruction on though. I found the defenders would attempt to dribble past players if I took that off and that's not what I wanted from this tactic.

On 02/01/2024 at 07:11, NineCloudNine said:

In my experience BBM’s need coaxing to get forward. Give them that PI and ideally train Gets Forward Whenever Possible PPM.

I’d also take off Be More Disciplined as although it feels right for a Pep team, in FM it seems to greatly reduce attacking verve.

Your GK distribution is also highly restrictive. Altogether your collection of TIs is quite the straightjacket. You can give your players - at least the creative ones - a lot more permission to play football IMO 

I've started training Rigg to get further forward so will hopefully see an improvement from him. He is still young enough to be moulded into what I want from that position which is good. None of my forward line are particularly big so I didn't want the GK wasting possession by hitting it long but I could probably give him more freedom to make their own decision on when to go short and when to hit it long.

 

[Too safe in possession]

I've attempted to recreate Pep's tactics (as many do) and feel I've got pretty close with the setup and the way we control the ball but I feel we are too safe in possession which ends up with us not creating enough chances. In the league, we had three 0-0 draws in a row followed by a 1-0 loss with a combined xG of 2.6 across those 4 games.

I decided to watch 2 games on full highlights to get an idea of what the problem is. I watched against Arsenal (were 4th at the time) and Sunderland (18th) to see if there were any common themes.

1. The 2 holding midfielders (DLP and LIB) regularly took the safe option of passing to the back 3 rather than trying to feed the ball into the forward 4.

2. The BBM doesn't really contribute anything. 1 goal and 2 assists in 24 league games is a lot less than I would expect from that role. Rigg is still quite young and developing so I might be expecting too much but I think that role should provide more.

3. Both wide players struggle to get involved with much of the play. I've chopped and changed roles on the wings between W/IW/IF and switching the left footer and right footer around but not found any success so far.

Overall I think the first issue is the biggest one. If I can get those 2 to provide the ball for the creative 4 more often then that may solve the other 2 issues.

If it helps I'm 4 years into my save and am now an established mid table prem side.

[Season 2023/24 Tactical Replication Thread]

On 15/08/2023 at 18:46, Johnny Ace said:

Given Birmingham City a go with the new signings. We're poor at keeping possession so the shorter passing with the Positive mentality had to go, might have to drop down to Balanced for the default passing and depending on how many shots per game there are.

The double pivot of Bielik and Sunjic, would be DMs, Sunjic is the slightly more adventurous of the two, Laird is the more attacking Wingback. Both wide forwards invert and I don't think either are Inside forwards. Could be an AP at AMC and Hogan hasn't been much good upfront so far, he was beats the offside trap Trait, he's more mobile than a Poacher and can put in a shift so a PF(A) tied it up nicely 

  

It's always good to see Blues being mentioned and looked at. I think we will be one of the more interesting teams this year in the Championship.

After recent games (Stansfield as no.9 and Miyoshi as no.10) do you think a PF(a) and AP(s) would be a more realistic combination? I also think Burke on the right wing is a more orthodox winger as well.

[Frustrated with patchy form and leaking goals.]

Personally, I don't mind the 3 attack duties up top but, as a Birmingham City fan, I will say that Chong always seemed to do incredibly well for me as a IW(s).

The CM looks to be a big problem for me. The game generally recommends a double pivot in the DM strata so I would drop them to that if the players can play there and I would not play 2 BWM. When you lose the ball, they are both looking to go hunting for the ball. They will do this even when you are winning by 2/3 goals. The opposition will probably have thrown more players forward at this point but your midfield are still going missing and potentially leaving you exposed. If you are wanting Massengo to hold his position (I'm assuming this by him being the one on defend) then I would switch his role to CM(d) or DM(d) if you take my other advice.

I agree with Johnny's point about the full backs as well. Them both being slightly higher up the pitch means they are in a better position to try and stop a counter attack. If you like some of the PI's that you have with FB(d) then you can always manually add them to them to the FB(s). FB(s) gives you more scope to play around with these to find the right balance.

[Your opinion matter. A 4231DM love story❤️]

I've always broken the DM roles into 3 groups.

Group 1 - Can be used in any tactic. Solid, dependable and will always do a job for you, at any level.

A - Most limited role possible. Does a little of everything you expect of a DM but don't expect anything extravagant
DM - A bit more expansive than the A but still pretty limited. An A that can at least jog and pass a ball more than 5 yards

Group 2 - Still pretty dependable but players need a couple of key attributes to make these work.

DLP - Need high numbers in the passing trifecta (Passing, Technique, Vision)
BWM - Need to have high Tackling, Aggression and Bravery
SV - Need high Stamina and Work Rate and benefit from having good OtB and Positioning as well

Group 3 - Specialist roles for specific circumstances.

HB - Only really works when playing 1 DM. Basically a BPD who defends higher up the pitch. Need's CM's that hold position so midfield isn't completely vacant
Reg - Again is usually used when playing 1 DM. Basically an AP but deeper. Needs a solid defence (usually back 3) behind him and CM's that will press high so that the Reg can operate higher
RPM - Needs to be in a double pivot. The other DM holding position. I consider this role as the SV on steroids. Like all playmakers, they need space to operate as well so don't crowd them

Assuming I am a decent team (for that level) then for a double pivot I would always start with the DM role and then based on the player decide on whether their attributes mean they actually become a role from group 2 or potentially group 3 (only the RPM really though for a double pivot).

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

On 09/05/2023 at 03:14, Cloud9 said:

5 at the back systems + a double pivot like this are defensively resolute, at a price.

3 CBs concede control in the middle of the pitch and this specific version places a huge attacking burden on the wingbacks. If you can shut the WBs down they will struggle to transition. You are also free to deploy a box midfield against it, out numbering them in mid field 4 vs 3 and further isolating the striker pairing.

Usually people struggle against 5 at the back systems when they go super high tempo. Drop the tempo, control the match and break them down.

 

Whenever you're struggling against a specific formation: just watch the spaces their players aren't in during the match and exploit that. 

Thanks for the advice.

I had it happen again so I dropped my tempo back to normal and told players to regroup rather than press as they are likely to just hit it long anyway.

The game ended 1-1 but we definitely had more control than we usually do against a 5212. Need to tinker with a few other things to make it work better but it is definitely a start.

[Quickfire Questions and Answers Thread (Tactic and Training Questions Only)]

Has anyone else had a real issue facing a 5212 tactic?

It seems to be a go to tactic for the AI when I'm in good form and it seems to always stop me in my tracks. I've done 3 main saves this year (Birmingham in Championship, PSV in Netherlands and Bilbao in Spain) and the same thing seems to happen every time.

1. Go on a good run (usually unbeaten for 6-10 games)
2. AI switch to 5212 and put me back in my place for a couple of games
3. After being put in my place, the AI switch back to whatever they usually play and we start winning again

I played different tactics with all 3 teams (Birmingham 433, PSV 4231, Bilbao 5212) but the same thing happens every time.

I realise there isn't really a proper question there. My question is does anyone else have a similar problem playing against the 5212 tactic and have any advice on how to counter it?

[Simple crafting of a 4-3-3 DM]

This thread has been a really good read. Really helpful for my own 433. I was guilty of clicking on evert TI possible but removing them and then slowly adding the few I actually needed has been really effective in helping to build the tactic how I want it.

I did have a question though. The original post was all about using wingbacks and then a tight midfield. The update changed this to fullbacks with a more creative midfield. I was wondering how you would build a tactic that was a mixture of both i.e. a wingback on one side and a full back on the other?

I have a very attacking LB (basically a winger who has decent marking and tackling) while my RB is very limited and is better and staying back and I want to play to both of their strengths if possible.

[U18 "stars". Better off training and mentoring with seniors?]

I've always found it depends on what you are looking to develop. Physicals and technicals develop better with lots of training. Mentals improve with lots of game time. So it all depends on what you are looking to improve on what will be best to do with them.