[Which FM has the best engine?]

TLDR - 22, I think obviously once you get to it and adjust to it.  For example in 22 I will change my line of attack much more during a game - reacting more to intricacies of the game is one of the things I suggested ages ago and which was done no doubt a while back Because I believe now in hindsight I have seen this being worked towards and others may have mentioned it too of course, but to have to react mid game is key to linking it up with the stats, both take on MORE meaning, and I try now to go round defences whereas I was not doing this in even 21 [which is more auto pilot where you just put on subs or maybe go cautious or positive but no major adjusts]!  In 22 if you say higher tempo the guys do that, slightly then more - you can suggest this and it plays out; slower, faster, press more, less, which person to press; players get caught in holes more, in corners more, the try to beat each other more (though the animations do not reflect this as much as in 2d) but you get the idea.  In 22 its been made clear how and when I should set an offside trap (I mean I do not play OP formations and tactics usually though yes I do have one option as gengenpress) and I adjust defensive line more and the visual game is more of a tussle and players run to close down like you see at games, and its just a better brand of football, patient if need be and faster if need be; importantly you can react more as you play it, to what it does.  As good as 17 is, its veritable auto-pilot compared to this.  Nor do I think 21 is any less a game but 22 is better.  

In 22 if you say control possession and all the rest, they will control possession and make their way up field sometimes not all that well, other times they get a roll-on.  This is not the case in 17; in 17 and others around that era they were in a rush and all the rest.  You could not get the full feel of such a tactic.  But you didn't mind as it fit into the sim-world.  Its fleshed out now.  In 22 it looks like more and more the AI as limited as AI can be, it begins to make more sense of evolving situations according to the tactics at least to a casual look (we know they are not sentient beings) - in 17 for example the way to play was to get the ball up there.  In 22, it unfolds much more like proper football and in movement and passing.  I understand that the speed of movement is the same and tactical variance between top and bottom clubs is somewhat nullified in terms of standard deviation distance to simply make the whole system work and be predictable, total permutation like in the real world is too much to ask for but it is what it is - and it helps to reflect that data you see and work with to make them play better; all that is interwoven so well now.  At least now passes can be under or over more, and they do sprint and speed up, but in future its obviously going get developed further.  I am just recognising that the 22 match engine is clearly out in front as to all the titles.  

As to graphics I personally think looking at 17 back to back with 22 demo that graphics for stadia complexity is on par or better now; I think the lighting is less garish, but in future who knows like in fallout 4 or skyrim they may be able to do that super-modern looking daylight, but for visibility I think 2022 is much better if that makes sense on top of my other assertion over quality.  I wish there were more variety perhaps but I see good/chunky stadia with geometric depth.  From about 17 onwards with analyst view you got a much better feel for stadia.  But these days it also translates into the other camera's too.  

 Re-format long form details of why I think 22, but at first i thought 17 like so many others; neither a bad game btw.  I have a premable for context and a scientific part in middle I will highlight.  It came to my attention via a video labelled First look at FM manager 2022, highlighted several things.  One was opposition instructions and I had played 22 demo a fair bit.  Op instructions matter more than in 2017 though I will go on to say I liked that engine.  The truth is 22 is ages in front of that.  As is the purchase price of players incrementally over the years.  It becomes difficult to say during this that 17 is better.  Though prior to my experiences with it all I may have said that despite enjoying it 100% and not playing it as much as 18.  50 hours (and 3 seasons) for example v 350.  In 2022 I don't mind also as years go on in life with this game to play it much slower and sink your teeth into it more, as is done.  In the modern engine you do have to be awake at the wheel a bit more, especially if you do what I do these days and begin with no more than 13-14 in manager traits and at mid-tier clubs, be they in the top flight or a couple down.  It becomes difficult I think for people above me, no offence, to say 17 was 'the best', I have come to see, over 21, its not technically.  

To assess some of this along with my playing time I actually because I had the 22 demo on, ran full matches side by side on 17, 21, 22.  Probably 3 of the key turning points or swings in the series.  Cant go into data and shouts and all that too much but that just got better. 

I played an hour a day on average some games in the series not all sitting at the computer but if its on a long match you can come and go or do other things sometimes, which is really good going if a game can give you an hour a day.  Others, barely 5 mins a day even though I did like them a lot.  Sometimes I whizzed through them across several seasons and got 'more' done, others I took my time and drawn out matches on full or comprehensive.  So trying to get to apples to apples; but also some years I did international management as well as club, other times not so. 

 

Premable 

By the time you read all this you won't remember I said this maybe but the rail camera in FM 17 REALLY sets off the whole engine, and those stadia and the non-ridiculous ad-board situation in 21 where in 17 the adboards are simply way more appropriate for football,  the whole engine is/was wonderful.  The 21 engine is fine for those but a lot was taken out like rail camera.  Its not in 22 as far as I can see.  And the air/atmosphere/graphical look is slightly better, iirc they had to tone that down for some people but its probably time to tone it back up in 23.  The 17 ME camera controls were bad as its difficult to navigate the UI but the options were more.  I think its surpassed in 22 overall but a shame its like it is by comparison to those things.  

I am currently playing 21 and not 22, only 22 demo.  I just came this year to 21 late.  I started it but never got into the save and a few false starts, but I am wanting to play it now alongside the 22 demo.  So I am behind, true.  

However as you read the scientific part you may come to understand other things went on and it was around 18 though I had pure enjoyment from the game (i mean that) I noticed that the passess basically were on rails, themselves.  They never really undershot or overshot and its as if the players were joined by a string and of course everyone knew that since 12 or 14 or something the defence didn't move as well as they could. 

For best engine when it comes to football play itself I do agree that 17 was so very, very good but obviously its eclipsed in total/overall by 21 and 22.  I completely enjoyed it for fun and felt it blended in with the overall game by that stage the best of any of the titles (in 2017/18; but looking back its more disjointed and not fully fleshed out - even when you watch full matches obviously 17 can't stand up as much to 22 and 21, but 17 had some good runs where 22 does not maybe as much though you get more complex play in 22 so there is no need to see such runs all the time, i get its fleshed out; above all its meant to simulate and 17-22 do that really well compared to 16 and prior in terms of visual and all the rest, its a good period for FM; and passing is better in 21/22 by a long way - 21/22 is just better football overall in many ways - but 17 is a gem no doubt!  So note my language and word I used - completely.  Maybe you will never see because of standard deviation bottom teams doing a certain way versus top teams, but its comparable at least a lot more now and the game versus visual simulation on match day is more nuanced; 17 you have to almost take as a whole block.  Its great but no where near as nuanced.  

 

I think 20 really made me question my game choices because it was the last of the old era; but 21 is like a new stage.  And 21 is great, too, its up there with 17 BUT I did not play it much until now, and I await to get 22 but I of course play the demo a lot. 

Which is the best game is the wider question with a 90% weight to the actual engine, as the engine is indeed the game.

I had a gap of play time after 13, and did not buy again until 15. I thought 18 was going downhill and not enough progress, but 19 and 21 were good.  My play time is as follows, and I think 22 is really good - but 17 had blemishes but not many, it was blemish free in so many ways.  I think 21 has less blemishes.  It is my guess 23 is going to be really good - but so often I am proven wrong.  I gave advice at 2019 and they took it up and I see that in 2022, and I am impressed.  

I completely enjoy 21, too, as stated with 17, but my scientific breakdown is as follows.  Note I am very good at the game and I also refrain from using O/P and downloaded tactics unless I am specifically seeing it 'just to see it' I do not use it in actual 'gameplay' saves.  I will start unemployed and with big clbs and with middle table clubs, but I do not like lower table clubs; so I mean I do not like relegation-battle clubs.  One reason is its drawn out by default and it used to prevent me from being an international manager. But so much content, too, fear of missing out.  I still want to play in so many leagues more as well.  Eg south America for one. 

Modern game when you could/feasible, it became so i could load more leagues, so now I use 30-40 leagues kind of thing.  Usually 42 in 21.  Also I like UI, so when user interfaces came along I would use those.  I use TCS3 skin in 21, but usually I no longer use any skins as its come along so well.  But I mean a good SI-made skin in the series probably made me play it even more that year(s).  Or new stats for example.  I was one who also enjoyed the 2d engine so much but now I like the 3d engine of course, nothing wrong with 2D though.  

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Scientific stats from steam

13 - 30.5 hours (I did not like 13 very much and at this point had enough of the series as I knew it was developing again/at the start of that process)

15 - 325.3 hours 

17 -  65.3 hours; my 'fave', and honestly it was!  I came to it late though that year and didn't get back to it - because I figured I wouldn't buy 18 just keep 17 lol.... 

18 - 273.4 hours (as you can see I spent most time in 18 but i knew that 17 was better, except I wanted most up to date lists of players; a big reason for this lackluster result of my impression is because I felt 18 was not fully-baked yet; but I played it a lot of clearly enjoyed it to play it that much, I really wanted to win those titles)

19 - 361.9 hours (here I was chuffed with FM again - I played all the way back in fm07 days, and even c-manager green menu version and blue version 2, and green football manager 12 (original I think of new era)...but I know 19 was not one of the best, and I looked forward to 20....i played 19 in anticipation of 20 and with the big hour ones I would do multi year and club/international so it was full-on)...

.... in 17 I enjoyed taking a queensland club to the finals before going to 3 Bundesliga, then getting to top league but then I did not continue, fortuna iirc.  I did it really fast but then moved onto 18

20 - 46.3 hours - I did not like 20 and I missed 17 since I had a save I wanted to finish with Fortuna, and 19 I had played it sooo much it wa shard to beat; I was into racing simulation at that point, too.  I was thinking hmmm will 21 be able to progress the series as i felt it stagnated.  I felt 20 had a really slow start with patches.  

21 - I think is one of the best.  Only 132.6 hours - and I am fully enjoying it just now, I watch full matches in 19, 20, and 21as much as possible - in 17 I whizzed through the matches, but I always use the stats.  

 

Around 18/19 you could role-play a lot better....just like in CManager 2, and 94 version green menu iirc, like in 12 version you could role play more, so around 12-15 it was lacking in that regard, 17 was clinical and so good - and by 21 you can role play a club so much better now again, but more visually.

22, 10 hours, demo only just now.  I think the series is back on track/on course.

 

I enjoyed 17 most I would say but note my play time, but I undestood until I saw 22 and 21 that 17 was not beat, I would however install 17 like I am now again, to see. and I would play 17 again, yes.  But not 18, and not 19, obviously there is 21 and 22.  

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Rankings 

In order, its for me 17

then 12 (was amazing and probably my peak fascination with football manager tbh)

then 21

then (probably 22 but it could well go up, and same with 21 could go higher on my list)

I know I play others more but for reasons and this is how I remember them.  But also their technical achievement. And sometimes the players so when they leave a team you do not play as hard until you find another save/time when you do want to play.  

Mostly I play naturally for personal challenge.  And appreciate holistically the title, technical and overall, and a best engine would have to be 17 and 21.  22 could become better most likely.  Its still pretty good but its my understanding some bugs will/could prevent that.  

Once it crosses a threshold it just vbecomes satisfying and good as a game, even if it has bugs -but some years if the M.E is bugged to start thats disappointing but does not always inhibit playing it.  Maybe I do not buy it as I skipped some.  20 I alsmot didn't get, 18 I almost didn't get, but both had good ones prior or after.  

So at this point I think 21 is technically the best title of the lot (until 22 gets patched probablyl; hlistically though 22 has surpassed somewhat already), not to take away from the fact that basically each and every FM can be taken on its own as very good.  So if you were on a deserted island and only had for example, FM 14, you probably would not be resentful of that fact.  

What makes the engine better, though?  I do not use first transfer window (I bar it), I use 30-40 leagues, usually 42 these days, I use full matches, I lower my badges to first national no matter where I play - I limit all stats to no more than 15, inc motivation and determination, I set attack no more than 10 and if anything I put tactics on 12...so i have low badges.  

It makes for a far better game, and I also choose to start at middle table clubs, or cough, man utd for example I guess we all have one club we pick; but make no mistake some years the engine could give you an enormous challenge even with man utd if you went in 10+ years, etc.

So in light of saying 17 and 21 for me are the best engines, thats under which circumstances, I make badges 50% good at best/and national former footballer at best, mid tier team to start, and only play top tiers as a reference (though its still all enjoyable and no offence to any one how they play)  When I used the 2012 engine and fm 15 I was not limiting my start like I do later on/now.

This is how I know 21 is excellent, for me anyway and 17, they were/are really well rounded.  The worst you could say about 17 is the regen faces probably.  Defence only improved and movement, but it was well rounded and did what it claimed on the tin.  And at least with the 21 engine, when you curtail yourself and I know not everyone wants to do that - you need to pay even more attention to things...for example with 21 and Stuttgart, you need to be on the ball/awake at the wheel; and I feel (and even with Brighton in EPL) those years I see now above the enjoyment, the engine allowed it a lot better with the new menu features/well rounded/not baking in the oven as much.  I tried Hamburg and Milan in 21, too, but I am sticking with a stuttgart save for foreseeable future.  For better or worse.  

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So in conclusion, knowing all that for my mind alone, as far as I see it, to not be disingenuous as to my own intellect and what I see in my mind as to the honesty of my thoughts:  

Without putting too many stipulations on it (like it has to do x, y, z in a patch), to make the point as I do not know the future, finally 22, without it droning on for too long 22 will quite obviously go down as the best match engine yet.  Its like a smoother milkshake version, think chocolate flavour with and without cream, its just smoother and better.  In saying that, if you go back to 12 and watch that circle run down the sideline, a messi or C Ronaldo in later games, a Baggio, or rivaldo when the 34 year old him could fire in that rare game...those attacking plays, they mattered to make the engine greater; so if the 22 becomes more incisive in attack then its going to be the best one.  

 

Even now its hard to say (though it lacks some spark and 'flare' or fire of excitement/anticipation/surprise) that it won't be the best one as it certainly already is the best one.  I can stand to watch 21 and 22 on full matches and only going comprehensive to pause for stats (beats going to the highlight button down the bottom though I could if I paused it, my bad habit) so they are clearly the best in any case.

I think I need to state that about this thread, for me, though I like the others so much, 22 will be the best; its already 'technically' the best and have the smoothest and best feel.  I'm serious is that 22 is the clear best.  They just need to get it tweaked up that bit - though I understand the wider game has bugs.  I did say 21/22, but technically its 22.  And I do not mean to be rude or compare it poorly, I think its difficult to select another as being the best by those standards. 

 

The ones I played for an hour a day over the year on average are my faves except 17 which I played less but never got back to.  22 will probably be the best, and 21 is technically the overall best just now.  

Lessons from 17 for me though were the banner at top, green bar was too much and by 17 also I wanted to automate more and have the UI be better.  At 17 I probably used flut skin, do not now, and stadia pictures and faces etc.  But I enjoyed how the stats were coming along, and UI and these are big reasons why I couldn't resist 18 (and the way dev is these days) I played 18 a lot more.  I consider 18 as 17.5.  

In pure football its a no contest as 22 bug-fixed will be the best, but 21 technically the best overall game.  Which makes sense as its constantly developed.  And 20 did start very promisingly in the beta iirc.  So I would think everyone would be blown away by 22 if they only knew of 15 or 17 and they suddenly saw it and all its stats (which is somewhat true too for 21).  But as a game if you only had version 15 on an island I said, you would not resent that.  And if you had 17 while stuck on a island that would be better, but you would probably want 21 just now or 22 should it improve like it seems it will.  Even the M.E from 22 is fine as it is now in terms of can it be enjoyed.  But fear of missing out is a thing and I am not looking at commercial or marketing or market realities etc but tried to give an impression of both.  And as the series goes on, in 15 you just played on key, in 21 you watch or want to watch at least comprehensive or extended, but full match for long, long periods because it genuinely is better...so that is the proof for me.  I may think I like 17 more, but I actually like 21 and 22 the most; where you can also basically relate and correlate a lot not perfect the stats and visuals and player personality etc.  

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EG in 22 I saw a player try to go past another as there was some good closing down, and they kicked it among themselves a bit opposition to player on my team a few times in a contest, then back to his teammate a bit, there is more of a struggle to get up the pitch playing against hard teams and it was a better and more stable match-engine experience.  But it was multiple passes and change of possession and contest for the ball, and they wanted to get out of their half after being closed down, so they had to try to clear after he was shut down.  

That is impossible in 17, even in 21 its not a given at all as the passing code is NOT changed from 17, see.  You may not see as many runs and stuff from what was it, I/w's unless it made patently obvious the team should do more running and there is a space but at least for 95% of the football experience is on screen.  Its less hollow in terms of simulation.  I think most people would agree that 22 is the best and it would be hard to go back to 17 full time.  

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

26 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

One of the major reasons why this isn't the case this year is because very few people actually bothered to report issues on the beta patches. Instead, people just took it as an opportunity to download a patch early, and then go "it's broken" if there were issues. That sort of feedback wasn't useful, and so why take the time to bother releasing the beta patches when you could just do private testing that's just as useful?

And it leaves people like yourself, costanino, and myself entirely mythed about why it has to be like this.  
  

11 minutes ago, Costanino Hummels said:

What lack of respect is this to blame the consumer for the mistakes of a company? It's hilarious

Sorry about that - I mean otherwise, which I did not say as much.  So I mean that its not our fault at all - but we often have to put up with or shoulder the load when it comes to suffering this.  

So many games now want early access and more and more funding but they make less and less quality.  I guess it makes competition sometimes harder and they require more and more features and get less time to make those features.  I think sometimes with publishers they want the money more than a good product.  I do not like it I promise.  

I returned a game yesterday (valheim) for this very reason - and it was more polished than most.  

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But in saying that for me personally I also see the view that some things were genuine mistakes or lack of dev time in this release.  Things in the UK last year were very hectic, I am sure many things were impacted.

I left england/london region and western europe 3 months before it hit to return home, and we had bush fires here, so it can happen to any country.  And covid was only worse.  But only this year do I mean I am sympathetic to it all. 

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What makes it more funny for me hehe is that most publishers this year/last year took their time to remove bugs!  No joke!  But not Si?  Maybe something is up there I do not know - because publishes did not want to make too many new products this year.  They just fixed bugs because last year was quality over quantity for most company's if I read the market correctly/observation.  

Where I forgive is that this release runs so much better and memory management and speed has come a long way in 3 or 4 years.  And there is more story to this version and last 2 versions.  I can watch more and more full/comprehensive matches - its pretty enjoyable.  

 

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

1 minute ago, Costanino Hummels said:

Let's see how I explain this ..... We are clients, we pay 50e for a product, we are not testers. We pay to have a finished product that has a very limited shelf life. Still, people haven't stopped since the game was released from posting content to the bug forum. I don't understand your position

I agree with you 100%.  And I can never understand why computer products are not the same as normal products.  I know code is complex and code often means "problem" that needs to be solved.  But even with that I find it hard to understand.

If it has a bad part they do not fix it right away.  This is like any digital game or app.  It can be very frustrating.  

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

4 minutes ago, Costanino Hummels said:

What????????????????????????

Sorry my portugese/spanish friends did try their hardest, and my gf did study the language on the side, but I will have to translate this.  

It was all good.  Beueno.  

Ah yes.  

I am not sure why you would want to hang around in the forum but its your choice; there are worse things to do.  I think the forum people can be obsessed which is both good and bad, but perfection can not make up for enjoyment is my idea about gaming in general.  

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

5 minutes ago, Costanino Hummels said:

Well, I just won't buy the game. I'll still feel around here because it's a good forum full of demanding people. Conformist people rarely enter this forum

It could be good for you.  

For myself I often play niche type games.  Yes 60k concurrent users is hardly niche, but overall you know what I mean.  Be they racing simulations, I don't mind a good simulation, and even ark to simulate living with dinosaurs hahahaha

But I agree lets just say this forum has some particularly demanding people.  
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Misdirection, when you want to be confused... 

Another bit of wonderment/feedback I have.  The news section, just playing the asian u19s championship just now and listening to iron maiden, I am pretty english in a major sense, so I have a focus on these things and the history of my country and the empire, etc.  

So i have this central calling/focus, and I am german as well lol, so I have all these centers I focus on as I go about the world. 

Well doing the u19s from S/korea and australia is in there too, well the news is immersive in a major sense.  I dread to think how our country would be right now if for example spain had settled here lol  

My thing is well the news could well be expanded to scroll down a further page.  I am sure there are plenty of extra additions a sandbox game can provide.  Just at this moment I trust the bugs either don't matter (and some really don't) and I am focussed on expansion of features.  

Because there is no grab-pole doing just u19s, it allows a wide purview and the news section in these times is more grounding than ever.  Not necessarily social media, but more magazine style things like focus's or some such.  Not entirely sure but I think the feature is a good one, and in the expanded game (since about fm16 iirc but begining in probably 12) this thing has more and more of a place.  

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

5 hours ago, Costanino Hummels said:

More than a month without playing FM21. The game has been out for 3 months and is still broken. Now they say that until March nothing (and we'll see how the new patch works).

If we see the useful life that this game has is 6 months for 50e ...

Next year I wait for epic games to release it for free in September and I will have the game patched and free.

I really don't care about the new transfers or IF THEY HAVE PUT A NEW WINDOW WHERE I CAN KISS MY PLAYER.

From a management game I value that the statistics work and that the AI does not have mental retardation and that this is reflected in the ME

Not a euro more to Sigames (I have tattooed this on my arm)

I do not want to tell people how or where or why they should play the game.  I too have a concern about 'less' A+ time each version.  Its a major thing.  

I just wonder though as a helpful suggestion - play outside the big leagues   One of the best things is to have a long save and I bet many people here knuckle down for a massive long play...but sometimes its good to just play a situation in-game for a few months...

Start unemployed and apply for everything and take the first job.  I took south korea for some reason one time just recently and its a save I intend to pursue for some time, solomon islands another, australian sides, german second tier sides.   lol!  Or maybe look up online the top 'non big/usual' clubs to play from a top ten list but choosing a club outside the top 5.  

This way the stats of the leagues aligning becomes a smaller consideration.  I play with 56 leagues which is most of them, and 40ish country's. I set all on playable but put the lower leagues/places I will never go onto view only-below option.  Then I put the custom part on, to get to 126k players, internationals and continentals players loaded at clubs irrespective option.  

In this manner, and maybe SI can do more with it going forward in terms of randomness, not sure if it dilutes the focus from a main menu perspective...or weekly/monthly challenges or some such (like maybe in Dirt 2 or raceroom)... well, if people do that they may find it takes their mind off these things and the imperative or comparing to the best or most well known football players.  

I am doing it just now - because lets face it for years I have played just big leagues, sometimes spain, mostly england, sometimes lower leagues, once in australia before going fortuna kholn (2017) which was a great game.  

So I am enjoying it from that perspective.  Most of the leagues are in full detail in terms of being 'playable'.  

Could be something worth considering for variety and challenge.  Yes, and I also come from the school that used to look up who scored the most goals across the world in a league, etc and select him to buy for my top, rich euro team... 

This is in a lot of ways a lot better, and it gets back to what the game is actually about - managing, not being handed trophy's which for this game and the agency you wield, is essentially what some people have happen to them.  Obviously in real life its a lot more work.  

Don't forget - point being, it gets around a lot of the niggles some people are finding in this release - so I wonder if they are playing leagues were such exceptional tackles etc are common/they can compare with actual real leagues, etc.  

I have zero idea what is going on in south korean under 19s lol.  but hey, I got the job man... I wouldn't know what the average perfect key tackle guy looks like - I will judge them on the pitch.  (yes I did see this issue as well when I first played this version - did that stop me from playing anyway? No it did not.  I knew it wasn't fully baked in some fashion, but it was still clearly good; I figured key tackles had to happen ANYWAY! [and wondered if key tackles were not happening what a scoreline would look like] and that it was just a glitch... as I stated key tackles and anything else 'key' is such a go-to stat for selection in this game you always checked it out, but its actually just one of many things to differentiate;

 

^>  ?  Well in actual life I am sure availability is more of a thing - if a player is not doing something this year, you can get on his back and no matter his skill level - I bet you... you are PAYING him and football is something he wants to do well in... he will try to make more key tackles or literally get fouled trying... thus the stat and its veracity was never a big thing for me, it was but a tool for me.... of course if he can't get to the spot then you must be aware he has something like 10 speed and he is great but also he is 34/35 years old... you know so a stat is a stat - which is a stat so the saying goes.... sorry to explain/exposition for so long)
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further specific feedback.


1 As for the match bar and engine I actually like it a lot, and the ability to switch it to subs - is this not how the brain considers things? Its way more natural.  I like that you can put the left and right pane on screen and still see the pitch.  I am sure its a major improvement and at first I was not used to it, but now I am, I love it.  Its elegant, simple to use and flexible. 

 

2.  Sometimes I wish there was a director 2 mode, to cycle in some of the different views, or limit director to specific views.  An option would go a long way I think for a lot of people.  Eg if you just use sideline and aerial then it would be nice for that to be automated to switch at various times (ball in air/long kick) then back to sideline, or even zoom in/out the same view.  Maybe that would be more cinematic, kind of.  

 

3.  A dirt 2/raceroom in focus scenario/situation button or box that highlights a club to do something with - be that for a long period of time or a short period of time....  

I mean this:  game was always about playing through a season and many seasons even - but with the advent of touch, and of course with how the game evolved and its more nuanced and the quality/detailed way it is now....well that gives it ability I think anyway to add in situations or other scenario's.

This could be anything and it may help to deflect attention for some of the more glaring holes people see in long terms (game crashing from 1000 leagues, regens they are not happy with, etc).  I think the game can lend itself to these things a little bit, and maybe a ranking system worldwide on such a thing.  Its more curated than some people would want, this being a sandbox and all, but its a focus.  This has probably been thought about before - and maybe one limit is that games need to start from the start of a season.  But maybe there could also be a 'way to go about things' - without a star player, with a particular handicap, or to meet a particular challenge.  

 

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

SO I know its been a turbulent time.  But I must say that I am glad many of my direction ideas were taken up about menu cleanliness and match engine/tv graphic type displays - also I never mentioned it or maybe I did but I like how the green hearts are in it now and a clean match engine.  

I think the flut skin lost its way - and I stuck to this kind of thing, though I think the guy is talented in an absolute way, I only kept the purple skin this year.

This is a testament.  And I am not a biblical dude. 

So I have enjoyed this release so much - may not have played it a whole heap, and stat bugs aside, I have run plenty of matches - I think people are too stringent in displaying (or allowing) themselves the enjoyment they probably know is in there.

I know this sounds ironic but I have plenty of other pursuits.  IF the game was in dire straights - trust me - when I am on point.... I am on... you know the saying or even the syntax of such a saying: I would have come back to make a suggestion if this game was truly in trouble.

I think the series is moving into a direction which is good, still - I want to highlight that its not all just myself.  The chinese market as we know I am not chinese but I have a feel for markets (don't know how haha), really... they like their iphones and their graphics and icons and thematics, etc.  I don't like iphones but I have seen many tv sports events in my time.  These changes were good.  

So the icon thing of the heart is down that line, much like I preferred solid flat graphics for displaying information in a beautification-way.  I am sure the game has faults and I am not dismissive of them, nor am I blind to bugs - but I can't honestly consider anything broken or detrimental too much.  No.... I don't watch football every day only when I can, so I am probably not a match-veteran like many on here, but I tell you what:  its enjoyable. 

I do sim racing too - but you won't find me complaining about the Bmw or ferrarai.  Maybe thats a bad analogy - but is it fun, it is, I see the direction its going and its good.

- I think the game draws-out overtime because sometimes the ref wants to give fair opportunity in simulation - he would be flayed in real life most likely in the press etc - but it also extends your sense of 'damn this match needs to end so we win, come on!!!!'

__________________________

notable consideration:>    with all the 'bugs' I much appreciate the 'some view/some full' option this year for league detail.   
__________________________

 

I don't get it, though - I would think guys could seriously work around it!

So I will continue to use the tackle/etc discrepency as a plot device here to explain things from that perspective.

i.e spain for me is all on full but lowest league available in game I set to view only.  I do not think the lowest spanish league can really upset the apple cart too much, as if I will check stats there... I won't.  BUT I will want to view it now and then.  

So I do not know why people do not utilize this in the interim more.  If it were me, I would not be complaining so much.  Doing this to several leagues (I run 40 leagues just now across 22 country's iirc; down from 56 leagues to begin with)... well it can make the difference in the speed of the game. ryzen 3700,570 board 32gb ram, and large DB but added in each nations international players 'for certain' option in custom.

^>  This alone should meet expectation with at least the proposed short term fix with how it may eventually take shape by making the stats align.  I am going to assume a full-deep-dive fix is going to take a bit of time and thought.  Imagine switching ALL leagues to full that you run, BUT their lowest league or 2 (in case of scotland, sorry, example.. their lowest 2... turkey, their lowest 1, belgium I do 2 and 1, etc etc; BUT french only lowest 1, england I do top 4/5, italy, top 2; this probably minimizes such discrepencies even if doing view only may have long term affects...but surely only afte 5+ seasons.)

^^ So while I used key tackles as well, and yeah it does suck a little, that little is not a lot, key tackles/passes ect was a useful stat - but I think so many other stats indicate things just as good.  On a probability scale its likely many other options will attest to a players suitability to a team you have.  Maybe you want him better at running, so look to that - in all probability he may just also do good key tackles, especially if other indicators point to it.  What am I saying?  We can probably clear that up by re-writting in our minds what I just said, but I often use the phrase "she'll be right..." as in I know its there, can't be undone just now, so don't make it a problem in the interim.  Just putting a highest-lowest list of key tackles is a boring way of doing it.  I used to do it like that, now I more like throwing caution to the wind and working with players ( by training, instruction, coaching, etc you can do this post 2019)... so its not a biggy for me. 

I think the game can be too easy in spots (its why I suggested it cheat now and then in terms of piling on the pressure, to test the user; if this has a history it can probably be seen in my posts).... thus lol! the inadvertent removal or obscuring of this 'feature of ease" is a great thing... lol  

 

I am going to go out on a limb and consider that the xG system was a more holistic useful feature and I doubt its prioritization came at any real cost. At worst, surface level.  

Its impossible to judge how the community may take such a thing - I doubt its too bad if 60k play it concurrently.  The point I would like to highlight is you can't leave it out, and when they plan, its my guess they said lets try to get it all in, but they did not, yet one cannot leave it out.  Thus I do not see how harping on about it, when I and others can work around in in spirit or principle/pragmatically is a worthwhile thing.  

I think therefore the game is better overall regardless.  

Hrm. Games like Europa Universallis get that bust apart thing right - a singular/reduced logic/goal is attainable by the player - thus the next dlc, etc comes out and expands out the 'attainability' aspect with complexity.  Am I explaining it right?  

Thus if it is, and that its actually so may be more the point - this is in the spirit of that expansion - I think its only a good thing.  Yet my opinion does not even rely on that; regardless I think its good.  Not perfect, never said that, just good; of course I would never trade away even more polish or effort should that be in question, I am simply stating it can be forgiven a fair bit to not even be a blemish.  Which this all crosses a threshold for fun any way, so not really seeing the problem to a gaping-black-hole level.  

 

[Football Manager 2021 Official Feedback Thread]

Is it just me or is the base skin these days, as of the purple update actually - simply the best skin...  I think so.  I do not understand why certain people detract from it beyond personal preference as I think its completely functional and good.  Even in the match panels

An example where I think people may go wrong - 

 

stats and numbers for players on player page at good eye height and to the right a little.  

the skin takes an assumption of the numbers needed at a glance, information density and flow, and inflection point to parse the information, without being too deep etc.  I think many custom skins make the mistake of trying to put too much in one spot or trying to be too fancy.  

I am happy of course with the way the default skin/game uses more panels to display the information - it elevates the title beyond a direct/abstract spreadsheet nature with a bit of art, and that is good.  I much rather a banner than a poster or square box and I see the game is putting such things where appropriate.  

The xG stats probably round this out wonderfully.  Its good to get things at a glance - because I do not expect the interface to do all the work for me, but things in my mind as I play 'back-log' up and I will attend to them as needed but may never get there - thus that information is useless to be displayed.  And it is not - I am just saying I think the game has moved in the correct direction though some people think its dumbed down - but a little hunting for info is not a bad thing, and I enjoy the new panels. 

I tried a bunch of custom skins just before and they are no where near the standard.  That was not the case years ago.  Yes I have player faces and competitions I renamed ect, and logos and kits I have too, but more and more the game comes with these.  

I am glad to report this positive feedback.  

And while no match engine is perfect I do not think it needs to be called unbearable.  Its very good and I do not need it to be a 1:1 indivisible with reality.  Good enough to enjoy this game immeasurably and retain immersion, progression and expectation.  

I think it would be a mistake to expect an amazing-game-played-wow! type of match engine.  Its doing more than just trying to impress people with good visuals, so I am happy with it, even more after this years (21) updates.  It may be the case there's a regression since the beta, of which I only saw a few matches from, then bought this lol right away... but I doubt its anything major.  Its always easy to focus on that one blemish but I do not think that way if I can help it.  If its gone from 100 points to 90 thats not so bad but from the way people are speaking its gone from 100 to 60 points, which I highly doubt - the word I am looking for is incongruous.  This game is not that, so it deserves a high rating.  

Yes - some things people think are disjointed - but this should not turn into a streamlined RPG experience - some things should be disjointed - like trying to persuade a room of ambituous athletes doesn't sound easy and should not be, so the interface is not in question there.

About difficulty - teams can always have good runs but I bet you a lot of people saying its too easy are the really good players and maybe they should have dampeners like in many other games (skyrim you can make it difficult for example with lower health ect or more damage) so I think thats impossible in a ME like this for balance, so I do not know what such people ask for.   I would not want to make the game too hard because it could become a case of being too difficult to get a good team on a good run and people complain about that too sometimes.  

90% of any team sport, yes not at the pointy end of the sporting world so much - is about having good players.  tactics etc can handle themselves.  So I do not see why the tactics come under such scrutiny in terms of mechanics.  Or people do not differentiate, I don't know but I see why the game is 'easy', its good for when you're having an off day.  

Beyond that difficulty can be a huge barrier for people wanting to even pick up a game, so there's other reality's to consider.  I may sometimes wish it was harder, and I have taken low teams to high spots/won leagues from low teams in the past I've built and developed, but its definitely not a 'given' for a player of my caliber - I can just as easily sign the wrong player or get it totally wrong myself as to the addition needed.  I guess the players who complain must be exceptionally good.  Its only in the past 5 versions (perhaps) where one could break down such things into more determinable chunks over time and in the moment, in order to see whats happening better in terms of teams power/quality.  I think a lot of things lumped into 'its too easy' are many separate issues.  But I do think a dampener (where people demand the game cheats against them - lol like nba2k 17 was big on that and that title was juicy indeed - they kind of want that I think...which is not the game is hard, but a challenge-me type thing.  Nothing worse than the other basketball team keeping pace more and more, then in the final 20 seconds they can hardly miss!  And then you as the player need to be fully switched on as everyone (in real life) would be trying extra hard, and if you are not perfect you will lose.

Maybe thats what they want.  I am not sure how it fits into a total simulation though.  I do know its more of a 'difficulty of convenience' at specific moments.  But then those same players may throw their hands up in anger at that (even if its a selectable option) and a league can take days to play out, a game of nba 2k can take minutes.  

I dont think they hate the aspects as much as they make out maybe - because a game like EU4 - they added over the years more and more things to slow down world conquest - which makes a lot of sense.  So I think moreso players are looking for maybe fairness/less bugs or what they deem unacceptable, sure, but mostly what would solve that, is more things to slow them down lol.  Like players leaving etc.  I don't know - or if they select several tactics which are too good, players who want to get into spots/more disharmony as everyone is itching to get on the pitch - thus the team fractures, etc.  

So yes LOL I am dreaming up ways for S.I to trash and tear down these really good players carefully put together teams, ala eu4... this above everything else, bugs, tactics, etc... seems to be what will get these guys the most enjoyment - chaos born out of success, becoming bigger and bigger targets.  To me it makes a little sense to get the semblance of a good league happening as is the case with stats now pretty much, then tweak it in excruciating manners, in small little ways to achieve the above for those who dare to doctor the results and their own ability.  

[Football Manager 2019 Official Feedback Thread]

19.2 is not perfect, no, but its damn fine.  I am enjoying it.  I watch most matches in full or comprehensive these days (never did so much in the 2D era but in 17 I did for a little bit but in 2D)... [18 was me going back to just key highlights most of the time unless there was trouble I'd try to work out extended highlights]... but now watching 3D in full match is all I want to do and there's one reason: the ME is just great.  Its become the way I play.   The only matches I put on key highlights are ones against bottom sides where I am having heaps of shots and know I will win most likely (sometimes not by as much as I would like) and I don't have anything interesting happening in my squad.  So I mean not watching for a youngsters performance or some such, etc or just know I will win/the team can do it on their own and there's an upcoming match that is much more interesting to invest time in.  Sometimes if you're up 2 nil in such a situation or 3, there's not enough compelling points to watching the next 10 shots on goal [usually, depends] when you know the next match on the calendar is the more meaningful encounter.  

I also make sure to give the analysis a look over before and after matches, even a cursory one, because I think it fits in nicely to the overall immersion of the game rather than just seeking it out when something is up.  Its good to be able to track performances and chide players when you know they could be doing more, or to get ready to sell someone, etc.  Then its even better when you want to buy someone in during the off season or offload a striker and use others, etc.   

Unsurprisingly I have played only 1 full season plus 2 competition months into my second season and I have to say it was already good but the improvements have been great to see.  There was a noticeable jump and now this jump.  

I went through periods where set pieces are seeing more goals, sure, but overall I don't think for me its heavily skewed.  There's a wide variety of ways goals are scored and no its not real football but I 100% understand how it all relates to the game and gameplay when watching, and as a game and for adjusting, etc, it succeeds how no other version has before.  Not sure what others are seeing but I really like it.  

I wonder if people have the 'play for set pieces' option turned on.  One of the best things about playing this year is that especially in full match mode there's so much granular control over your team.  The balance is just the icing on the cake.  If a player is playing a bit less than well or his mood is down you can change things up or give him a shout.  If you want more chances you can shout to your midfield or change a role, sub a player as needed if its not his day, etc.  I find it all engrossing.  If your defence is looking a bit shaky and the opposition have some quality you can get them to tighten up, you can adjust playing out of defence, etc.  

I've had a very successful season and I must admit playing for a leading club/some may say mid-tier club, but everything is as I would expect from the performances; and the match tactics plan for the game ahead is a great tool this year too.  You get advice from the assistants (which are sometimes counter to your ideas) and you can implement all this before, during and after the match.  You can boost training performances and make adjustments, etc and then rest players; I find it all fits in nicely and I enjoyed the rotating of my squad and bringing up youngsters or getting the last drops out of enthusiastic old stalwarts.

No the ME is not perfect, but the game is absolutely great.  I don't think its a matter of forcing myself to suspend my disbelief because I am having too much fun roleplaying and enjoying the rise/fall of performances, etc.  Nothing really bad jumps out to me in the main (I know strikers go missing now and then and there was a period where my [very good] midfield really should have been up front but how is it any different to the world with all the variables) and certainly nothing jumps out to me to ruin the 'game' because its 100% playable and you can adjust etc based off it.  One has a lot of agency to affect the game world and everything lines up more or less with how one would expect.  I'm not shrugging things off but I don't have a problem with the game.  The things that may be wrong with it according to some could be improved - go for it, complain, etc and fix, whatnot... - but as a game I stand by the assertion it completely succeeds.  

[Football Manager 2019 Pre Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread]

5 minutes ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

That sounds right to me - I don't use match plans and I've never experienced anything like that.

I had not used them either but thought I would try a 'mock' one.  If drawing in first half lol go attacking and change formation (essentially moving my AM to a DM )   note: i did not plan that out, it just so happens that to be the change, and players getting subbed - which I did not think it would do.  Because I did not think it through its a pretty silly plan.  

Even so if it can do these things on this level - and I didn't really use plans last year too much and tactics were more one dimensional before the tactics overhaul  - so I find it intuitive and remarkable.  

[Football Manager 2019 Pre Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread]

1 minute ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Maybe just have a look at it, if you're plan includes a change in formation, it might sub players in who fit the roles. I've never used it though, so not sure if that's how it works.

edit: more info.  [you could be right, I never thought of this]...  so in fact I think its changing my formation as i have shifted the starting one around in a tactics meeting without fully comprehending I have done it.  maybe this is why its subbing players. 

it goes from 4141 DM wide, to 4-2-3-1 wide.  so I am pretty sure this is it as my DM gets subbed.

That being the case i think its pretty cool, but as to my bench makeup I do wonder the prudence of the AI in this case.  Still, pretty cool.  

Unfortunately once we score it changes back, maybe I will need to watch it more closely, but yes it is subbing players for me, which is cool.  

[Football Manager 2019 Pre Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread]

3 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Do you have match plans set up?

I do actually, since about 4 matches ago, but its to play attacking when drawing in the first half.  wonder if that has something to do with it, do you think?

edit: more info.  so in fact I think its changing my formation as i have shifted the starting one around.  maybe this is why its subbing players.  it goes from 4141 DM wide, to 4-2-3-1 wide.  so I am thinking this may be it

[Football Manager 2019 Pre Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread]

does anyone have the game making substitutions for you?  In each of my past 3 matches the computer subs a player before 25 mins and subs them off after 40!  On my team! haha.  It makes 2 subs like this and I am not touching it at all, and leaves me with only 1 more sub I can make in the game.  each time players have nothing wrong with them @91 health.  

Why is the game making subs for me?  edit: mind you, I won all these games against weaker opposition and otherwise I am highly impressed with how these matches play out.  its good to watch - is there a 'make subs for me' option for your assistant or something I have clicked on?

I had to make up an excuse in the press conference about why I subbed Mata on then off because he was quite upset - so its good the game keeps track of that actually and had the info to display

[Football Manager 2019 Pre Release Beta *Official* Feedback Thread]

1 hour ago, Nonlondoner said:

I'm really enjoying FM19 so far. I'm finding it harder to look away from this version. 

I'm a little baffled about the new tactics and training areas, tending to take the advice given me at the moment but that will come. Overall, 9.5 out of 10 so far. 

I dont want to make my feedback sound like I think the game is perfect and stop work today, but honestly I am more than happy with this version.  The moment to moment gameplay along with the new interface and information is superb imho; and I myself am in no way feeling like I did in FM18 which was yes-good but no-still needs work.  I feel as though this is the second installment of fm18 and the new systems are joining into place well.
 

• Here's some of my thoughts:  I consider Flut skin the pinnacle of FM skin design.  So I myself am a huge praise-giver of the Flut skin and would not play without it - but the FM19 skin is very nice and the new amounts of data and ease of navigation is very good and in the right amounts to me/ of course I do customize columns and add in mid-match stat data and I am one who likes to look at analysis and all that.  I love the idea of separators.  

 

• The one area I do miss of Flut but I guess its not a big deal just now is the player stats screen (though in terms of the overall fm19 skin I am not saying this aspect ruins it at all) - I felt it was exceptionally well laid out and aesthetically pleasing. 

 

• I thought to myself I may not wish so hard to change the skin as I did in the previous few years, so I mean it when I commend the FM19 default skins work.  There's been a lot of new information and systems and game-direction to encompass year on year with the skin, and fitting in design/data, so it would seem that work has paid off.   The entire game feels comfortable, like its expanded and also fits like a glove.  I like the new tutorials and all the new parts of training and other systems, eg tutoring overhaul.  

 

• I do not mind the purple at all, and of course I like the banner-accents at the top proving much needed flair (something I thought Flut does well) and I like the new rounded corners and the separation of elements on the screen and of course all these things help one focus their eyes onto relevant parts as needed.  Good job.  I am by no means just saying the skin is 'servicable', I am thinking its more in the lines of towards exceptional; along with the layouts of menu's and the increase in fluidness and the representation of data and overall data depth, I really enjoy navigating the interface this year.  
  
  ^ I especially like how the training program is front and center in the continue-drop-down page as each day goes by.  
  
  -- Its important to note that I considered the skins of the prior 2 years a major issue and felt it compounded the disjointed nature of the game with new systems being rolled in - as if the navigation was tripping over itself or having 3 ways to get to the same thing i.e excessive menu tabs, so this is all very welcomed..; further thoughts I will go over below on how I feel about this as more systems come into line with each other.    
  
  ^ > In many ways I feel as though development has paid off and its some kind of crest of a hill in FM19 - the game is feeling really cohesive, fluid and complete.  

_ 

• The moment to moment gameplay this year is much more cohesive than ever and I really feel the systems are working well together more than ever.  To describe how I think about it is - it gets less and less "spreadhsheety" each year, sure... but I also feel the effort to push into RPG territory is beginning to pay off.  No - I dont quite like the idea of a full RPG FM, but I see the benefits are very good - so I would describe the game as having an ability to draw me more and more into the role-playing fantasy and everyone can imagine their own ideas of the touches/places where you think something is a really nice addition/touch that helps draw one in....granted I am only a few months in so I expect it to get even better on this front as things develop in the season

^ >> To describe that I feel as though the moment to moment/season per season gameplay is really good, so who knows what will be in the future of season-to-season evolving, etc.  

•  Really like the training system, the work done on that must have been a lot and it fits in so nicely. 
  
  ^ I like the new tactics screen, a lot in fact, however I wish there was a way for me to work out how much energy a player has without having to minimize the tactics section.

^  >>   One of the things I really enjoy about the game now is how the different systems on each page can find themselves involved on other pages and in other systems more and more; I do in fact really appreciate this.  Of course I would not want it to get messy in terms of manipulation of the user's desired intent all over the game so I am glad to report that I feel the balance is very good.  

• Match engine.  In short so much better.  More and more as each year goes on I am willing to watch longer and longer match highlights.  So I think this is a great barometer.  Not only do I like to see beyond just the goals/half-chances/key moments, I like to watch the play and note how my team is doing.

^ >> So I appreciate how the whole-match system is broken down into possession/transition/out of possession, (forget names just now forgive me its only been maybe 10 matches atm!) and the on pitch action begins to reflect that, it feels a lot more dynamic and even if this is a stop-gap until an entirely new match engine emerges, its a damn good one.  

^ >> It feels very smooth this year and liking the curve being back, liking the feel of the matches and the animations fluidity and its surely a high point for match engines. 

• Not that I am easy to please or I am overlooking bad things, I just think its way more fun and pleasing.  Nothing bad jumps out at me for me to turn my nose up to.  
  
  ^ >> This is why I think maybe 18/19 were the same project separated out into 2 titles.  The good points have been mentioned a lot in the feedback.
  
  Don't stop the effort, I am not one to quibble on various things like wrong passing stat or something, but I do rate the game at least a 9.  
  
  If reviewers don't consider FM19 exceptional I will be surprised.  
  
   
• So not only is my feedback almost entirely positive, I am firmly in the 9/10 camp, and I truly do feel as though this enjoyment level is immediate and fully apparent.  Well done.  
  
  ^ The only point I think can be done just off the top of my head is making the player energy level visible on the tactics screen without minimizing to make sure the subs have enough energy to get through the match.  This is a bugbear for me.  This also occurs in the matches - one has to potentially check two screens (unless I am doing it wrong) to make sure an exhauseted sub is selected because there's no numerical fatigue number in that same section [if this makes sense].....
  
  And also on one occasion a guy I subbed did not get subbed, but going back in got him subbed at the next moment after selecting him as before yet again....  I know there is a quick sub but I am on about the main tactics page.  Not having numerical fatigue number in my face on the tactics was surprising, maybe an oversight, but overall to me is only slightly inflexible, because I don't mind delving into menu's as I check multiple things at once (I like to batch up my to-do list during a match, probably to my detriment or having unreasonable faith in the players ha).    <<  Basically about the only thing that even stuck out to me and is not dampening my enthusiasm for this title; I think such an issue was a problem now and then in last years title; its nature is not something that is destroying hopes of winning matches so its not like its a major thing but of course a sub should be subbed/interface issue.  
  
  Rarely will I quibble about the match engine/crosses etc, I find a wide variety of plays as it is.  My feedback has centered on the interface/systems mostly because I consider the match engine very good and despite my overall look at each years titles above I appreciate the game as being a game and its quite fun - so of course I am glad though the shots towards the corners are gone, etc. curve is back. 
  
  This may have been too long a post.  
  
  - Saw the VARS and was pleasantly surprised.