Thinking inside the BOX, FM13 style..

Some of you might know me from a rather non bespoke thread (in the current trend anyway) I created a couple of months back which took me from a serial moander, to losing my rag....to almost quitting and coming out the other end full of love for FM13 - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/334313-Going-against-the-Grain-a-journey-from-rage-quit-to-complete-satisfaction

At times its been a struggle but at times its been whole heartily worth every minute reading and taking in as much as I can. Its certainly paid dividend but can imagine not everyone's cup of tea so hopefully I can cut some of the time down for the less patient out there and give them guys struggling help in building a similar tactic. Although this thread will go into detail surrounding the box 4222 im hopeful some aspects can be taken out and put into your own formations/tactics.

Very well expalined, Wez.

I've never tried it but the way you explain the BOX just makes me want to use it (would probably have to start a new game though, my Port Vale side aren't up to it).

But well done youve created a great tactic, playing some great stuff and winning trphies (with Dag & Red!).

Btw, I'd just like to say your 'grain' thread has persuaded to perservere wih fm13, been trying to tactics right since about fm10!

Well done, mate.

Great post. Out of interest, are the goals you concede slightly more frequent down your left?

Clearly wide play is supercharged in ME1325 and with just one player physically placed on each of your flanks, I wonder if this causes issues, or do you find both your DM strata roles cover the flanks effectively?

Like you, I'm a bit bored of a 4-1-2-2-1, and am looking to branch out to see a bit of variety.

What I do is show them inside so that they run straight into the DM's, which then holds them up and I almost go to a 2 vs 1 situation and close them out.

Great post

I've always been a fan of reading about the 4222 because you can have so many variants which means every versions plays different.

The adv fwd is how you would expect, quick mobile guy who can finish.

Am I missing something with this sentence...

Who let the moaner back in? We should have changed the locks:lol:

Nice thread

Can a troll not change its spots?

wez007 - you obviously have some world class talent in your team now judging by the screen grabs. What do you have to consider to make this style of formation work with a below average squad, or a lower league team (like when you started out)? I've always had 3 central midfield players in every version of the game from CM. Going to 4 (ignoring some dalliances with a narrow diamond at Chelsea one year) is virgin territory for me. I could never get the DMCs and the MCs to get out of each others' way.

wez007 - you obviously have some world class talent in your team now judging by the screen grabs. What do you have to consider to make this style of formation work with a below average squad, or a lower league team (like when you started out)? I've always had 3 central midfield players in every version of the game from CM. Going to 4 (ignoring some dalliances with a narrow diamond at Chelsea one year) is virgin territory for me. I could never get the DMCs and the MCs to get out of each others' way.

Well i think it can work with any team as long as you have square pegs and square holes. I was adamant I was going to make this work so I slowly groomed my kids to play how i wanted, all those screens you see are kids ive brought for peanuts at 16/17. Mind you the scouting network is pony for lower leagues so your struggle getting in quality youths in lower leagues due to the fact you cant see them!

Ive been so tempted to take a Part Time team and implement what ive done with one of them but so hard to drag myself away from this save as its been an evolving project. Maybe one day

Anyways, I think it can work at any level as long as you get a good mix. Granted you wont find anything great and certainly not all round players but If look for players who can fit the roles, even if its specialising in a particular area.

The DC's are straightfoward as most tactics, look for old physical players have good mental stats. I find these guys easiet to find. Look for heading, jumping, positioning, anticipation, marking and tackling, even if its round thw 10-11 attribute mark, should be fine for lower league. Get one quicker guy if you can but doesnt matter too much as DC's sit deep in counter and not pushing up.

Fullbacks will offer the width so try and get speedy guys with stamina to get up the park, mine are of the ashely cole bread but they dont need to be, they should at least have stamina, work rate, speed to get up and down the flank and offer support, anything else is a bonus.

The BOX is the important part (well the most important), so for DM you have a physical itimdating wall so obvious attributes will be bravery, tackling, anticipation, marking and good physical atts. Wont be getting a all round DM lower down the leagues so just look for what you would consider a beast. He doesnt need to have passing, creativity etc, its almost like having an extra DC.

DLP will look to do the bits the DM cant (get where im going with this?) so he has to be able to dictate the play from the back. A rare beast is a decent DLP way down in the depths of lower league but if you can find a guy with good passing, intillegent atts then you are there. Tackling would be handy if you can find one.

MC (AP) is pretty key to the spring effect i mentioned. He must be quick, dribble, agility and stamina, passing & finishing are good bonuses. If you have a runs though middle ppm then this will be quality.

MC (hybrid) should be a jack of all trades but might want to look for more of an engine here if you lack in creatvity. You want him pressing high and doing a bit of everything.

The two strikers I have are a little and large combo which works great. Get a big strong lad in at TM (which might be a bit easier to find) and a quick guy who can obviously finish.

If you can get these kind of players in you can cover most areas and you should succeed with it. As with all tactics, you cant just put a DM in the DM slot and expect it work for example, it needs the right type of players but I dont see any limits for using this in Lower leagues.

In regards to players getting in each others way this doesnt seem to happen with my settings as they all move up in tandem and the spacing/roles work lovely. It works like a assymetrical diamond that rotates so players always a decent space apart but close enough for easy ball, its setup lovely for free flowing football imo.

If you do give it a go let me know how it goes

Inspired by this thread and earlier Box posts in other threads, I created my own 4222, albeit with MCs and AMCs. It's still more of a blueprint, but already showing some very nice football.

Cheers for the input!

Wez (or LAM),

I try to implement a box midfield in every version of FM, some attempts are more successful that others. Finally getting somewhere this year with both Monaco in my long term save, and Boca in my online game with my mates. You spoke above about showing wingers inside, so that they run into the DMs. Is that simply showing the right winger onto his left foot, and vice versa, or have I been missing something for the past 10 years (like a 'show inside' button)?

Fantastic thread mate

Where is the results?

I played them recently however I am Spurs, so we are just a little bit better than you chaps.

I found that Hazard didn't really like to put crosses in, he was more of a "cut inside" man, so really it's this you want to stop. He is likely to ride or go around any attempted tackle so I would suggest that LIGHT TACKLING was the order of the day and given your formation, I'd probably suggest the RB doesn't really get forwards to much.

Given your formation I'd probably sit deep and try and make them run at you. Get your MC's to close down their MC's all the time and one of your strikers to close down the DM if they use one.

If they are using an AMC then I'd probably suggest using your DMleft to tight mark whilst leaving your DMright with zonal marking and very low closing down....make him an extra body for Hazard to get through. If the low closing down doesn't work then increase it or tell him to mark Hazard.

You have to remember though, Chelsea are clearly a quality team, if you somehow manage to cut Hazard out, then they'll focus through someone else.

Another possible option would be to make the DMright an Anchor, reduce his mentality and his closing down and increase the closing down on your DCR and RB, this way he should drop into cover them when they move to close Hazard.

LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE LIGHT TACKLE

*edit*

Though I'd put a little more thought into this. With your numbers in midfield you should be able to stiffle his supply to. MM the two MC's and also ask your striker to MM Cole, I doubt he'll do a decent job of that so if he isn't then stop him doing it at some point.

Look at your analysis tabs and see who is passing down the left corridor and then MM them.

This is from a discussion myself and Lam had about playing Hazard in particular, which gave me the ideas for the the DM working as cover for wing play. Should help

Very interesting read mate.

What do you do regarding strategy within games? Do you play counter against everyone? I've been tinkering with this and playing Attacking at home vs weaker teams, Counter away to similar etc.

Are you a fan of shouts as well? I've tried creating some to allow me to hold on to a lead, as this is a weakness in my current Jags game.

Regarding the box midfield I think you could make good use of the 3 variants of it quite nicely - DM, DM, MC, MC & DM, DM, AMC, AMC & MC, MC, AMC, AMC - they would all appear to have their benefits.

On my Ivory Coast save on FM10 I took the Ivorians to the World Cup Semi Finals on a good run, beating Brazil 1-0 on the way, and tactically got the better of their box midfield, simply by playing 2 holding midfielders, and forcing them wide where their full backs were the only good source of width, but consequently had my wingers and full backs to deal with.

Good solid tactic from the looks of it. One suggestion I would make is to swap the strikers around. Get the poacher at the near post and the target man at the back stick.

This is from a discussion myself and Lam had about playing Hazard in particular, which gave me the ideas for the the DM working as cover for wing play. Should help

Thanks for that Wez, i'll read it a few times to let it sink in. If I come up against Hazard, i'll just get the ball boy to man-mark him

Cool! I think I the 4222box I use with Dinamo Zagreb is almost the same. I usually switch to attacking at the start of the match though.

Tbh I haven't played the last week. Even though my team right now does pretty good I took a break to wait for the next patch.

Very nice goal btw!

edit: which reminds me: why is there no thread where people can show their most awesome goals?

Great post. I have always wanted to play with a box midfield but never been able to create one that works. I think I am going to give this one a go but I will need to change the TM to a trequartista or a DLF as I don't have a player to fit the TM role.

Am I missing something with this sentence...

I thought the same thing. When I do build my formation I will start with a poacher but will experiment with an Advanced Forward only because he will bring the DLF or Trequartista into play a bit more than a poacher will.

I play it with a DLF and and AF combo, works nicely

My post was in reply to him saying he used an advanced forward and a poacher yet the screenshots show different

My post was in reply to him saying he used an advanced forward and a poacher yet the screenshots show different

Yeah, I saw and thought the same. I sort of thought the advanced forward must be the next progression of the position. I am interested to see what Wez has to say about thaat 'typo'

Ah see where you coming from now...

Ive been trying a mix of both, ideally im trying to get the STRC to play off the shoulder of the last defender. Guess either would work but poacher seemed to suit the attributes for the ST I was playing there.

I always use a TM or DLF (usually the former) in the STLC. I like an old fashioned big/little man approach

Cool! I think I the 4222box I use with Dinamo Zagreb is almost the same. I usually switch to attacking at the start of the match though.

Tbh I haven't played the last week. Even though my team right now does pretty good I took a break to wait for the next patch.

Very nice goal btw!

edit: which reminds me: why is there no thread where people can show their most awesome goals?

I thought about that other day actually and I dont believe there is, certainly not seen one

This tread inspired me and I wanted to try the box out. It is seldom I play without wingers, but you really explained well how this formation works. I have started a game with Macclesfield, and though I don't have all the requirements, it is easy to see the strengths of this tactic. You defend tightly and in attack there are lots of bodies coming forward. I have also witnessed some nice triangular passing when we chose posession to see a game out.

It is early days, but looking forward to become more familiar with this formation. I have only used it away so far, but really like what I see.

Thanks for the input you provide, and the good explanations.

Ah see where you coming from now...

Ive been trying a mix of both, ideally im trying to get the STRC to play off the shoulder of the last defender. Guess either would work but poacher seemed to suit the attributes for the ST I was playing there.

I always use a TM or DLF (usually the former) in the STLC. I like an old fashioned big/little man approach

I have Neymar and two gun newgen AF-types. Neymar is the Trequartista. One more question - do you set the playmaker and targetman in the team instructions? As I am playing a trequartista he gets set as the default unticked playmaker. I am thinking of setting the DLP as the playmaker and Neymar as the targetman to see how it works.

Wez, good posts here. I've been looking at this formation since my FM12 Fluminense game where I came up against it a lot. I've just picked up FM13 this weekend and started playing as Lyon, where I thought, given their decent central midfield options, Gourcuff, Grenier, Gonalons etc they could hold that formation well, especially with the fullback options they hold as well. I'm seeing a lot of long shots being taken by opposition teams and at times we give up a lot of possession. Do you find the same in your saves?

Wez, good posts here. I've been looking at this formation since my FM12 Fluminense game where I came up against it a lot. I've just picked up FM13 this weekend and started playing as Lyon, where I thought, given their decent central midfield options, Gourcuff, Grenier, Gonalons etc they could hold that formation well, especially with the fullback options they hold as well. I'm seeing a lot of long shots being taken by opposition teams and at times we give up a lot of possession. Do you find the same in your saves?

I do mate to be honest, though I rarely win the fight for possession with the BOX. Kind of strange as id thought the middle 6 (incl FB's) would play a lot of ball to one another. When I play through defence it works lovely and some great triangular passing phases but its not as often as id like. My two main source of goals are - 1: ball into my TM who holds up and plays someone in or 2: my MCR who seems to have acres of room, pick up the ball from deep and bomb onto goal. Mind you he does have 20 dribbling, 19 accel and 19 agility (with run through centre ppm) so I guess that helps.

for some reason ive stalled a bit so even more determined to get this right. when it works its awesome but sometimes it can be a bit too negative, its just finding that holy grail of the right balance which drives me on

I have Neymar and two gun newgen AF-types. Neymar is the Trequartista. One more question - do you set the playmaker and targetman in the team instructions? As I am playing a trequartista he gets set as the default unticked playmaker. I am thinking of setting the DLP as the playmaker and Neymar as the targetman to see how it works.

I dont have either tbh, I didnt want my team to be be too bogged down with strict instructions. What your saying could work and certainly worth testing

Wez, good posts here. I've been looking at this formation since my FM12 Fluminense game where I came up against it a lot. I've just picked up FM13 this weekend and started playing as Lyon, where I thought, given their decent central midfield options, Gourcuff, Grenier, Gonalons etc they could hold that formation well, especially with the fullback options they hold as well. I'm seeing a lot of long shots being taken by opposition teams and at times we give up a lot of possession. Do you find the same in your saves?

furious did a good thread here which might up the ante a little - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/278013-The-4222-Box-Blurring-the-Strata

I think im going to try the AMC approach but a little worried it might have a negative effect as not sure FM13 will handle it so well by nothing having a DM plus a limit the space my MCR has who loves to run into the voids. Decisions........

Stumbled across this looking for some tips on the 4-2-2-2. Nice to see it can work well if done right. Now I just have to figure out how to make it work for me.:confused:

I was reading about Dunga's Brazil last night (http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/03/analysing-brazils-fluid-system-at-close-quarters/) and have been using that as a starting template for me. I noticed your system has similarities (2 holding mids, same mentality, Kaka role) but also differences(Robinho's and Ramires's roles).

I'm guessing Ramires is a BBM, not sure about Robinho though, maybe a Treq?

Have you tried these roles in your in system? Did you get any joy with it if so? Do you think it's possible to get a team playing in the same manner as Dunga's?

Great thread by the way, starting to read your 'rage' one now as that's about where I am in my FM life at the minute so maybe i can pick up some tips.

lol, always takes a rage quit to think things over

Not seen that link but just going through it, its a very good read from what Ive seen so far.

The Ramires role could be easily created as its pretty much how my MRC works at the moment. He has run through centre ppm but a lot of the time he takes this wider as thats where the space is and also as my RB isnt instructed to bomb forward too much. The Adv Fwd sits quite narrow so gives even more encouragment to my MCR to get into the right channel/wing. I have him as a AP (A) which encourage the runs forward and extra creativity and free role.

The Robinho role would be difficult to reinact in a 4222 box seeing as his starting position is out wide left. The tactic setup in the link would almost suggest an inside forward role where he look to spring forward, cutting inside. Very difficult to get that working id say and I dont think a TREQ would be the answer.

Id say that tactic wings its way to a:

.............ADV FWD (a)

IF (a)

.......Att Mid (a)

................MC (a)

.....DM (s)

...........Anchor (d)

Predicted 20th in my first season in the prem so could be a lot more rage to come.

Thanks for the advice, i'll try tweaking the roles till it hopefully plays right. Such a fine line between tweaking and tinkering.

I'll maybe ignore the Robinho role until i have a player capable of playing it (not sure Shaun Wright-Phillips is quite of that standard).

Just looking again, would a 4-1-2-1-2 be more accurate? Damn Brazil and their roaming players!!

4-1-2-1-2 narrow? Could do but again Im just not sure FM is built for the flexible approach your seeking, which is a shame

Just looking again, would a 4-1-2-1-2 be more accurate? Damn Brazil and their roaming players!!

Ok, my first attempt didn't go too badly, 1-1 away against Liverpool. Great team goal for me. Sloppy corner conceded. I was unlucky not to win.

The main issues were that i didn't feel the 'Ramires' role was right so i'll try some other things there.

The other issue was my AMCL(A) and DLF(S) were on top of each other according to the heat map:

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/4597/liverpoolvleedsanalysis.png' alt='liverpoolvleedsanalysis.png'> Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/img]

Any advice on this? Should I change the AM or the DLF? Maybe this is why Robinho starts out wide IRL.

Odd because that heat map looks pretty decent too me. Analysis of my last game vs Cagliari in Champions League which shows mine a lot more cluttered but they didnt seem on top of each from the highlights:

Won 6-1...

Your DM (s) should have no run forward so really shouldn't be on top of each other.

Jesus, ignore me........ I thought you meant DLP instead of DLF !

Been a long day

Start again... the DLF is dropping onto the space where the AMLC will be so yes there is going to be serious space issues there. If im right they both move into channels so you want to give the AMLC a free role or have the DLF play normal wide play. See how that works

Thanks. I'll try and adjust their 'Wide Play' settings and see what happens. Was maybe thinking of putting the left striker to hug touchline to see if that creates the space i need.

I did try the left striker as an inside forward (A) in line with the poacher. Huge mistake, got knocked out the league cup by Leyton Orient.

p.s. sorry for high-jacking your thread with my troubles. Hope you don't mind.

p.s. sorry for high-jacking your thread with my troubles. Hope you don't mind.

No worries, our end game is the same so post away

Why dont you try having the ALMC cut inside and the DLF as move into channels? What you really want to look for is the DLF picking up the ball and AMLC moving off him into space

Just because they're on top of each other on the heat map doesn't mean they're on top of each other on the pitch. Remember it's an average and the average can obscure what's really going on: if you plot the average position of the two goal keepers it's in the middle of the pitch! It's possible the AMC is dropping back to defend when you don't have the ball and pushing forward when you do, vs the DLF staying higher when you don't have the ball then dropping deeper when you do, in which case they're fine. You can only really tell by watching.

Was maybe thinking of putting the left striker to hug touchline to see if that creates the space i need

Thanks for all the input guys. I've decided to move the Amcl down to mc (maybe AP(A)). I think i'm getting too hung up on trying to get the system to work the exact same way as Dunga's Brazil. I'm just going to keep certain aspects of it for now. Counter attacking, 2 marauding wingbacks, 2 holding midfielders. The rest i'll just have to try and get something balanced that works.

furious did a good thread here which might up the ante a little - http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/278013-The-4222-Box-Blurring-the-Strata

I think im going to try the AMC approach but a little worried it might have a negative effect as not sure FM13 will handle it so well by nothing having a DM plus a limit the space my MCR has who loves to run into the voids. Decisions........

I had a tinker through that too. I've made a box version with the two AMs but I think its getting cut open too much at times. For the AM I reduced the attacking wingback to support because the defensive cover isn't the same. I also unticked the "Counter Attack" option which gave me a firmer handle on possession at times, oddly each central mid and the DMs/AMs have 70+ passes a game but yet we only have a max 51% possession. Finished 2nd in Ligue 1 with Lyon, but was 20 points behind PSG as I lost 10 games overall. Some of the attacking play we produced was fantastic, but conceded a lot of our goals from corners or deep crosses. Still, 2nd season about to start. Lets see what tutoring/PPM additions have done differently this year.

I have recently taken over Wycombe on my (what is slowly becoming a journeyman) save and I have been forced into using a box-type formation due to the complete lack of any wide players, so this thread has been a great resource for funding and affirming my own ideas (along with furiousuk's and Uncle Sam's respective threads).

I am actually playing a 4-2-1-1-2 (so it's up to the box purists as to whether it's technically classed as a box or not), whereby I have the two deep midfielders (DLP-D and DM-S) with one CM-A and a AP-A pushed up into the AMCL position. The reason for this was that the AP-A was dropping too deep to pick the ball up, quite often being too close to the DM-S before driving with forward with it. This also meant the link-up play with the forward line looked a bit disjointed. Has anyone else tried this at all? I haven't been at Wycombe long but seem be to getting reasonable results despite the lack of tactical fluidity.

Thank you for the great suggestion on how to cope with wide players (setting the opposition instructions to get the opposition player to cut into the congested area of the pitch), though I have noticed that the opposition full backs may also need this as more often than not they will attempt to over-lap the winger who has just been forced to cut inside.

Thank you for the great suggestion on how to cope with wide players (setting the opposition instructions to get the opposition player to cut into the congested area of the pitch), though I have noticed that the opposition full backs may also need this as more often than not they will attempt to over-lap the winger who has just been forced to cut inside.

Try the MC's MM the fullbacks if they are pushing really high

Try the MC's MM the fullbacks if they are pushing really high

Does this cause the MCs (MC/AMC in my case) to be less effective going forward? As these are primarily attacking players their marking and tackling are not the greatest.

I had also been wondering about the placement of the CM-A and the AF-A. At the moment I have the CM-A in the MCR position and the AF-A in the FCL position, both of these roles have wide-play set to 'move into channels' by default.

I have my attacking wing-back on the right with the supporting full back on the left. Although the formation looks and feels quite balanced I wanted to see if anyone had already experimented with having the CM-A (or a similar role that also has wide-play set to 'move into channels') on the same side of midfield as the supporting wing-back as it's not easy to tell from the average positions/heat-map where he would be best placed/most effective, assuming the CM-A will only move into channels when he doesn't have possession of the ball and you are attacking.