Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug

[macdyne73]

My 2 cents.

I think part of the problem in this game is that the 2D match engine isn't clear enough for the player to pick up on what is going wrong.

I've experienced my share of the too-many-shots-on-goals problem too. However..

I remember reading a thread somewhere in the Tactics forum describing the "counter intuitive" nature of the FM match engine.

Consider an example;

I manage Chelsea FC and I'm playing a team in the bottom three at home. It's halftime and I'm murdering them. Many attempts, longshots, one on ones, set pieces etc. But... no goals.

Most people would boost their attacking mindset in the 2nd half to generate even more chances. This is the correct thing to do isn't it?

Apparently not. The better thing to do is to actually BACK OFF (less attacking and/or lower tempo and deeper def line) and give your opponent some ball time.

I've watched games for the full 45 minutes per half and it seems that if you attack a much weaker team too much (i.e many, many shots) they pack their box and defend. Your team is so intent on attacking that you will be very vulnerable to quick counters and concede from your opponents one or two chances.

Happened quite a lot before and like many posters here, I thought that maybe something's wrong with the game.

After reading the counter intuitive thread, these days if I notice the many-shots-but-no- goals problem, I tell the team to back off even up to the extent of lowering mentality and switching on counter attack.

Is this realistic? I'm not sure.

Anyway, this is what works for me so it might not work for others. Also bear in mind this is not a super tactic and doesn't work all the time. It helps thought.

Sorry, no screens and no uploads since I'm at work right now

Having said all this, I do agree that the match engine needs more tweaking. I think the root of the problem for many people isn't "clear" enough.

And listen to what wwfan says. The boy knows what he's talking about...

[macdyne73]

Arghh, can't edit posts:-

"Having said all this, I do agree that the match engine needs more tweaking. I think the root of the problem for many people is that the match engine isn't "clear" enough.

Sorry for the mistake.

[sturrockisourking]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ter:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be more helpful is for those who are having issues to log it in the bugs forum (preferably all in the same topic) with example pkm files uploaded to our ftp so that our testers can get a lot of different examples. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd just like to know why this wasn't noticed during testing? the patch shouldn't have been released like this as this seems like a problem to many people and they are now going to have to wait until january/february to get it sorted out.

[chopo]

Hats off to everyone who has put a lot of effort into a solution to this problem but the point remains, the problem shouldn't exist. I'm not giving it the 'wot a joke SI iz' stuff as it's been oft repeated and helps nobody but I am more than a little unhappy with this aspect of the game.

[Thunder God]

For what it’s worth here’s my opinion…

I’ve just come back from my mate’s house where we’ve been playing FM08 (with the latest patch). We are both experienced CM/FM games and know plenty about how to set up some sensible tactics etc. The tactics I used over the course of half a season were logical and straightforward and after watching a handful of games in full there are some issues that are obvious.

Firstly though, as far as we could tell there really is no long shot issue. That can be well managed via limiting who is allowed on the pitch to take long shots but it is painfully obvious that there are some issues with the way the patch has tweaked one-on-ones.

I’ve seen some arguments on here that the match engine doesn’t really allow for a gamer to see the detail of what’s happening and that the shots to goals ratios are accurate and that’s fine, but I think the problem is coming from an over abundance of one-on-ones. Realistically imo there are rarely as many one-on-ones as I’ve seen in this game and the engine is making a mockery of that scenario to remain in line with a sensible shots to goals ratio. Therefore forwards nine times out of ten simply strike the ball at the keeper weakly, almost as if he was passing it back to him.

A few solutions we came across to reduce the appearance of these dodgy one-on-ones was to a) reduce our teams attacking mentality a little. This seemed to open up a better variety of goal scoring chances and b) if the forward is capable have him run with the ball. He tends to produce better angles for shots this way as well as running into space with more variety.

It really doesn’t surprise me that so many players are complaining that they are having 20 shots 12 on target and scoring once while the opposition get 2 shots and somehow manage to score. I think the vast majority of players want to go out and attack and this is why you are seeing such a repetition.

There are a number of detractors in this topic who argue that there really is no big issue with one-on-ones but I strongly disagree. The maths work out reasonably well but the visual experience is what is causing the issue.

[thebigman1985]

anyone else notice post patch how bad corners are if you set a tm to near post flick on, just heads wide for me from impossible angles

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ianw22:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Managing at Lower Levels is Easy

The Missed Shots 'Bug'

This only happens at higher levels with European quality sides. Why? Simply because the AI will play ultra-defensively and restrict space as much as possible. This leads to the Missed Shots 'Bug'. A lot of the chances created are hurried becasue the user tactic is not actually creating the quality of chance that the 2d seems to suggest. Players are snatching at chances because of poorly thought out tactics against ultra-defensive sides. This is not to say that the tactic is poor; rather it is poor against a certain type of formation. Most of you complaining about the Missed Shot 'Bug' don't see it against other big sides, because they don't play so defensively, and thus your world class players have the time and space to operate and thus play to their attributes.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true, I have been managing in the BSP and it happens there! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I managed to get a couple of hours in at BSS level and I agree, it does. That makes things much more difficult throughout the levels, but may maean that the tactical jump between divisions is less severe. Same advice applies though. Open space, get wide players forward. Free roles and slow tempo for that level I'm less sure about, but rest assured I'll post what I find when I've found it.

[Jimbokav1971]

wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks .

[Jimbokav1971]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

In an effort to find out the common denominator- can everybody who is getting this issue state what kind of way they are playing and at what level, as I feel this issue will only happen in certain situations.

Im playing as Billericay in League 2 and play a fast, direct, counter-attacking game and have this issue with both 451 and 442 formations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would prefer for less tactics to be discussed if possible.

[Ackter]

Sorry Jimbo, but to get to the bottom of this we need to talk in-depth tactics and attributes.

[earmack]

WWF: I tried what you said and lost 5-2 in the first game , getting raped down the flanks. However the next 4 games I won with a conversion rate close to 1/4 (Goals/shots-which is much better than the 1/8-10 I'd been experiencing), so maybe my team just needed one game to adjust(or maybe West Brom were on steroids). Zonal marking brings about some interesting issues but I think I've got a grip on it now (prays). I'm gonna stick with it when I think we are clearly the better team as I definitely noticed my full backs pulling defenders out of position.

[earmack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could always just ignore any advice given, or not actually read it (its rather obvious its advice when he says 'heres some advice'. I know this isn't the tactics forum but all his advice is not overly specific.

[kennec]

i think game is very fun with 8.01.

HUGE diffence now. i play an zdenek zeman inspered 4-3-3 narrow with lazio. i bought one players first year (m fernadez). i have hige succes and have very gun.

i think kye is either play deep and defend and counter with big gap between midfield and defence. or an all out pressing with high defence and tigh push up team are the ways to go.

only thing i dont like so far is my players wasting all freee kicks. shooting from huge range.

[kennec]

hige and gun lol

sounds like chinese. should be huge and fun.

[Rashidi]

I'm going to toss my hat in this one...

1. I have found it possible to create an attacking tactic and still create loads of chances. I usually have a guideline for all my tactics..there is a ratio that I use to determine whether a tactic is doing good or not and that is the Goals/SOT ratio. Lets say the percentage is X. I find that when I compare that ratio to some of the more successful clubs in the game or on FML I'm usually quite close. When I first started playing I used to average 5% below the average and it was something I didn't like. So to increase it I did one of several things.

I'm going to try really hard not to go too indepth...

a. Getting more players into attacking positions.

b. Using interesting variations of arrows

c. And more importantly, I had to get the ball and the player behind the defensive line quickly.

d. Having a 6 on 6 attack and also having variations of the same tactic that would allow penetration down the flanks and through the centre.

This would allow me to have some advantage over the AI at all times.

The results of these have been encouraging. I do find that my ratio increases with better players.....BUT there have been times when I can generate 62% possession, 30 shots on goal 20 on target and only 1 goal. Like the rest here, sometimes I get really upset because these chances are breakthrough, clear cut one on ones.

Perhaps I don't get as frustrated as others because more online and I'm used to seeing really strange formations, and it can be annoying at times. With FM2008 I'm reasonably happy and I can take these odd games as a one off odd occurrence.

I do notice that people seem to be more demanding, they want every clear cut chance to be a goal, or I could be wrong. Personally speaking I do wish that I could score more, but its not a game breaker for me.

One thing though I disagree completely that this is somehow related to closing down and any mysterious long shot bug.

[kevin_chn]

could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.

"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS

[earmack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kevin_chn:

could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.

"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It means set forward runs to 'often' (under individual instructions) for your full backs (wide defenders) so that you have more players in and around the oppositions penalty area.

[kevin_chn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kevin_chn:

could anyone please explain to me what is "10: FWRs often for FBs to overload the box and increase opportunity of uncontested cross.

"?

I cannot understand the first part of the sentence...

THANKS </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It means set forward runs to 'often' (under individual instructions) for your full backs (wide defenders) so that you have more players in and around the oppositions penalty area. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thanks~ and wwfan's tactic tips are really helpful!

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do appreciate that, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. To not talk tactics fails to defuse the situation, as 'it's your tactics' only causes widespread resentment. I have to explain why, to a certain extent, or else I'm failing to be helpful and just adding to the frustrations. I'd much prefer to do it in the tactics forum, but GQ is where the flame wars are.

If you think this is detailed, you should see what I write in T&TT. This is nothing in comparison.

However, as a short-term fix I suggest blocking me, or not reading this thread. I can promise not to talk tactics throughout he rest of GQ and only offer (general) advice in this thread. Fair deal?

[Fred_the_Red]

I find it stange that the game becomes more realistic playing a lower creative freedom. Anything higher then 10 the game becomes a shoot at will fest.

[jsl]

In my previous 15 games it's taken me on average 10.5 shots to score a goal, against the AI's 6.4 shots per goal

[benkezza]

sorry if this has been said,

regarding "closing down somtimes works" moan,

as i dont have the energy to read through 7 pages, but its realistic, why should your closing down work all the time?! if it did then whats the point in the game? might aswell win everything, it happens in real life, players lose concentration! get over it

[Sheddy]

An average of 23 chances 12 on target per game is too high. Football does not create this many opportunities on average. Defending was fixed in the Beta patch. It is not fixed in the "real" patch. I have no time for SI "fans". I bought a game in October, it still does not work. The whoel thing is a farce. Advise to SI - Next time you release a game make sure it is finished because you reputation is completely knackered after this one. Message to geeks who go on about tactical issues, do you really think real life managers have to go into things in so much detail. No chance. The best managers will provide succint instructions, uncomplicated (footballers are not the brightest I would suggest). The game has gone to far, it hides behind stupid interpretations of what certain aspects of tactics may need. Basically, the engine is rubbish and has become so flawed through constant fixes it is now impossible to fix and recreate anything like real football. The game needs to start again with a new engine instead of rehashing the old one constantly in the hope it will look better each patch. Changes only lead to errors elsewhere that get fixed and lead to errors elsewhere etc etc. The game is broken, should never have been released and is a poor simulation as the real key part of the game (the matches) now look nothing like and play nothing like actual football.

[marcconeley]

I've read this post with interest.

I developed a good tactic which worked well with the boxed version.

I then applied the beta patch and everything was still OK in terms of shots/goals etc.

What I should say now is that my tactic is quite attack minded, and my team had scored the most goals in the league, and conceded the least.

Now, I dont believe that it's just co-incidence, but after the official patch the following has definitely happened:

- Team has dried up when it comes to scoring (drastically).

- Before patch, I was dominating games and scoring at least 1 goal per game.

- Since the patch I've played 15 games and scored just 7 with the same players and tactics.

- Defence is the same though (maybe better). In those 15 games 7 have finished 0-0.

- Only once have I conceded more than 1.

- Only once have I scored 2 or more.

- I've dominated nearly all games in terms of possession and shots.

- On average I have about 20 shots per game with half on target (which is about the same as before the official patch).

Therefore the only difference is now less goals actually go in.

Now I've tried tweaking the tactic to make it more attacking, and still the problem persists.

To such an extent that all my strikers are now suffering a lack of form.

This can't be explained by a loss of form, or low confidence I am afraid, or poor tactics or bad strikers. The patch has definitely had this affect.

The questions is: is it a "bug" or is it just a case of the patch "fixing" something that now makes my good tactic poop? (excuse the word ;-).

It seems I am not the only one experiencing this, which makes me think it's the former...

Divided opinion it seems.

SI?

Cheers guys.

[nymanr]

Well i to have had this problem that OP has taken up.

Don't really now what to believe about the theories about the 2D engine not being able to represent the actual quality of the chance of the shot. When i see my W.class striker be 3-4 times per game alone against the goalie i expect him to convert at least one of them. If i can't trust the representation then what is the point with the game? How am i supposed to know what is going wrong in different ares of my team if the 2D engine is wrong?

Nevertheless i read through this thread and some other in T&TT and have taken up some of suggestions mentioned by wwfan and others to make changes to my tactic.

Result.

My number of chances per game went down but SOT/goals % did get much better. Rooney went from 5% of SOT going in to a 22% average. So now my strikers where finally scoring.

Problem is this change came with i total change of play from my part and the team was not playing the quick creative football that i want them to play. More importantly all beautiful goals where still missing. All goals where scored from rebounds. Strikers where still not able to score from 1&1, but now they found them self always in the right place at the right time for the easy goals.

Players inability to score is also noticeable in other areas. During my season i had ( 1 ) goal scored that according to the 2D representation was a long shot.

Same season was not able to score a single goal from a direct FK, and only scored 4 goals in all competitions from corners.

I was still wining all my games ans despite playing a very Attacking formation opposition was not able to score against me. Only top teams where able to score against me, so the AI is also effected.

Remember reading threads about people complaining about there being to many goals in the beta patch stage and then seeing in the change list that player finishing had been toned down for the full patch. I never noticed high scoring games in the beta patch. Now i much rather have the games score a bit more if that would give a more realistical spread in type of goals scored. Now it is just boring watching the same type of goals being scored over and over. Felt that the balance was superb in beta patch (except for corners) what came to different type of goals scored. Now it seems that there is only one way to play the game at a high level to get the players to score even slightly from the positions that you want.

Don't think that toning down player ability to score was a good idea. Limiting number of chances would have been a much better way to go.

[wwfan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">My number of chances per game went down but SOT/goals % did get much better. Rooney went from 5% of SOT going in to a 22% average. So now my strikers where finally scoring.

Problem is this change came with i total change of play from my part and the team was not playing the quick creative football that i want them to play. More importantly all beautiful goals where still missing. All goals where scored from rebounds. Strikers where still not able to score from 1&1, but now they found them self always in the right place at the right time for the easy goals.

Players inability to score is also noticeable in other areas. During my season i had ( 1 ) goal scored that according to the 2D representation was a long shot </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In theory that should be fixable as well. It certainly was in 07. My original uploaded tactics were heavily criticised for being too Big Sam, but later versions were more flowing and flair-based, and produced wonderful goals. Now you are beginnign to socre one in four, it is just a matter of logically implementing steps to make the tactic more stylish. Walk before you can run.

[totti_is_god]

I've followed these arguments closely and have very much appreciated the help provided by those that have developed ways to deal with the problem. Despite making efforts to combat this annoyance within my own game, and seeing varying levels of success, ultimately my real issue is something that cannot be defined scientifically. I simply think that the match engine looks poor if judged as a conceivable game of football, and furthermore is not effective in showing the user what is going wrong. Even some that have made efforts to support the people who are struggling have admitted as much. Furthermore, as noted by Sheddy, diagnosis of tactical problems often seems linked to cure in such incredibly tenous ways, as though tactical complexity as part of the search for realism is having the opposite effect. No match engine has been perfect, true, but I seem to recall having been distinctly happier with the final version of FM07 than I have been with this one. On an aside, if this were real football, I think I'd be making headlines for the number of rebounds my team scores.

[Joor]

What I really hate is that the AI knows how to get strikers to perform and not miss 5 out of 6 one on ones.

So there must be some tactical way for us to make our striker stop wasting those easy sitters right?

I just cant find it atm. Did a quick test in the semi final vs man utd, and im milan - very even in match odds before the game. I played the game 10 times, and man utd won every single one of them

4-0 4-1 5-1 3-1 2-1 1-0 3-1 5-1 4-1 and 2-0. I tried all media comments and all teamtalk variations before match, but we still cant win - even tho on average we have 15 sot or more(slow tempo or fast it doesnt matter).

Wide formation, narrow, high creative freedom or low..mixed mentality, high or low. Deep defensive line..man marking key players..nothing worked - man utd still won. And its funny, it was either Tevez or Rooney who always got MoM. 1 chance 1 goals..maybe 2:1. Most of the games Utd didnt even have more than 10 SOT.

Im frustrated right now

[wwfan]

Are you at home or away?

[bflaff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

Regarding the 'can't score/concede too often with a great squad' I had this response from an American user in '07.

What I did find remarkable, however, was how substantial differences in game play can flow from minor tactical deviations.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Definitely agree with that. One thing I noticed in 07 was that if your tactics were wrong for the team you were playing against, you'd see your players doing all kinds of inexplicable things on the 2D. Tactics need a proper balance, and without it, everyone runs around like a chicken without its head.

[BJG123]

For me it seems to be a specific problem with one on ones, in my current game I have two players I created (finishing 20, composure 20, and finishing 18, composure 19), Rooney (18,17), Tevez (19,19), Ronaldo (17,17) and Anderson (16,17) as my 6 man attack, yet despite creating a plethora of one on one chances, nearly every single one of my goals comes from a free kick, a long shot, or most commonly, a rebound from one of my missed one on ones. It's bloody annoying because the player it affects most is your striker because he's the one missing the one on ones, whilst others pick up rebounds.

[PaulC]

For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here.

[Jimbokav1971]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:

wwfan

I know from reading some of your previous posts that you often talk sense and that you were highly adept at creating tactics for FM07.

Perhaps I could ask if you could be slightly less specific in terms of tactical instructions that you use. I'm interested to read your posts, but I don't want to benefit from your tactical insight if that makes sense .

I haven't won a game yet and I would prefer that if and when I turn it around it is because I have worked something out, not because I have read how to do it on here.

Thanks . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do appreciate that, but I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. To not talk tactics fails to defuse the situation, as 'it's your tactics' only causes widespread resentment. I have to explain why, to a certain extent, or else I'm failing to be helpful and just adding to the frustrations. I'd much prefer to do it in the tactics forum, but GQ is where the flame wars are.

If you think this is detailed, you should see what I write in T&TT. This is nothing in comparison.

However, as a short-term fix I suggest blocking me, or not reading this thread. I can promise not to talk tactics throughout he rest of GQ and only offer (general) advice in this thread. Fair deal? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You must be joking if you think I'm going to start blocking articulate & intelligent posters. I have more than enough on my list as it is.

I see your point and I appreciate that it's in less detail than it would be in T&TGF. I guess I'll try and keep out of this thread for a while then as things are hopefully worked out, and then pop my head in fleetingly to see what the results have been.

Good luck finding a solution .

[Fred_the_Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its good that you finally posted a response and finally can see it maybe a bug. Although the natural occurance is another angle to look at it.

[marcconeley]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

For my part....I responded to a post on this issue in here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers Paul. Interesting reading.

For your info, I did find a solution by tweaking tactic. My original tactic was narrow, "2 clicks deeper than normal" defensive line, and mixed closing down.

Basically I pushed my defensive line up, pushed closing down up, and moved attacking mentality 2-clicks up from where it was. Result: Massive difference to performance and goals per game. Same number of shots, just more are going in - and conceding the same amount as before the patch. My problem solved.

My thinking is that the "closing down" tweak that was implemented in the patch had a dramatic affect on my tactics.

Maybe this is why there's been so many threads about this topic?- Some tactics were effected more than others by the patch. Teams that were "flying" pre-patch hit had a severe lack of form/goals after the patch for no obvious reason - and the patch got blamed.

Really, same players. Same team. But very different results after making these very simple changes.

That's football I guess! lol

I am happy again

[Warrenwwr]

i just replayed the 2nd game of the season 4 times, and the opposing keeper got MOM in all four. all ending 0-0. i tried 3 formations, made several tweaks etc.

i don't usually reload games, but i randomly chose this one to develop some formations for the rest of the season. but this game seems destined to end 0-0.

i'm chelsea and opponents are Derby. they played 3 premiership games before this one, all ending in 0-0, including one against man Utd at old trafford. so i 'm aware of what they're about. so i attack consistently. i hit them from wings, briliant crosses to drogba, over bar or at keeper. ballack orchestrates from the middle, with their dc's playing like cannavaro + nesta. my pirlo hits free kicks which hit the post or keeper saves. sheva actually missed a penalty in one of the games at the 79th minute. the list goes on.

it definitely is not because of my tactics as i'm getting great chances to win. i get an average of 9 -10 shots on goal and 8-9 missed, so this is not a 25-30 shot rant.

it just seems that i don't have enough luck to win this game. if i didn't reload it, i would have drawn and moved on. i just hate that chelsea got unlucky on this day for each reload, while derby played the match of their lives for each reload. I hope someone read this and sympathizes.

[EpiC2z]

i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. damn this baffles me.

from what i notice, this game is all about trial and error, and not about what the beauty of football should be.

its a damn guessing game.

but hey, i still enjoy putting up my galacticos

[Tony Dolby]

The 'shots on target' stat is quite a poor indicator of the quality of those chances. A poorly stuck optimistic 30 yarder counts the same as a point blank shot blocked by the goalie.

I think there was definitely a problem with the amount of chances being created in the beta patches so the strikers' finishing has been toned down. The post from Paul seems to confirm this.

Surely the problem lies with the unrealistic number of chances being created not the finishing power of strikers. When looking at the match in Full mode it is quite apparent that BSN teams are playing football that is of an almost international standard.

Forty yard first time passes flicked with the outside of the boot are commonplace.

If fewer chances were created by a combination of better defending and toning down the vision and passing ability of lower league midfielders, then the finishing power of strikers could be put back to pre patch levels.

A typical 1-1 draw in my experience of watching live football could consist of 4 very good chances each and maybe half a dozen 'half chances', certainly not 30 chances each and 6 one-on-ones.

[Themistofelis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:

i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this

[Tony Dolby]

It hasn't got anything to do with tactics as far as I can work out. There was some talk about slowing tempo but I remain to be convinced.

SI have admitted that they have lowered the finishing power of strikers to reduce the number of goals.

What they should have done is addressed the cause of the problem.

The only consolation is that the AI teams seem to be affected too.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tony Dolby:

It hasn't got anything to do with tactics as far as I can work out. There was some talk about slowing tempo but I remain to be convinced.

SI have admitted that they have lowered the finishing power of strikers to reduce the number of goals.

What they should have done is addressed the cause of the problem.

The only consolation is that the AI teams seem to be affected too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- although slowing tempo does work, I dont agree that this is particularly realistic its just a workaround.

Why? Well when I was cursed by the bug my team were creating miriads of 1 on 1 chances where my single quick striker would get in easily behind the defence with direct balls over the top and due to slow reactions from surrounding defenders would find themselves 10 yards clear in all directions but would either pass to their keeper or inexplicably go wide and allow defenders to catch up. Now some on here would have you believe that this is not a quality chance and that is why slower tempo is better.

IMO thats a load of rubbish- that chance is far better than any of the slowly carved out chances I manage with a slow tempo, yet even though my players are easily closed and marked I score more goals with a better percentage of chances being converted.

It doesnt make any kind of sense and does not reflect real life at all where a 1v1 chance is a golden opportunity, whereas in FM its not.

You just have to look at the way the best teams in England play- Mourinho himself said that the key element in scoring was a quick transition between defence and attack, with the ball being delivered quickly into danger areas and meaning the defending (previously the attacking team) are unprepared and not able to set themselves to defend, thus creating gaps and space.

This to me is what I was doing in FM- yet the engine and the thinking behind the way it works in FM doesnt seem to follow how the modern game works.

[delibey]

When a player is through on goal, he's always expected to score. I think conversion rates for one-on-ones are around %25 on average. But this doesn't mean a player will score on out of four chances. It doesn't mean he can't score two consecutive chances either. Slow tempo won't change that. And I don't see why slow tempo creates better chances. Most good chances happen after quick direct balls to the forwards and by leaving them one-on-one with a defender or the keeper. You play a slow tempo, the opposition gets behind the ball. How do you expect to create clear cut chances when there are 9 players between you and the goal?

[Warrenwwr]

the only issue i have is that teams seem to break each other down too easily. irl, there may be only 2-4 good chances in a match. in an open game, 7-9 etc etc. which is why when looking at a match irl, and a chance is not taken, loud groans emanate. they are that hard to come by.

in fm08, my team consistently gets through the defence. the oposition, regardless of their lack in quality, can break my defence as well. get past terry...atrocious.

it's the 'DC with direct passing' syndrome. stats (other than physical) just do not seem to count much, which is why my team of athletes with 17-20 for physical stats, and technical and mental stats of less than 5, beat the likes of juve, milan etc.

[Fred_the_Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:

i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper.

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Fred_the_Red:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Themistofelis:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by EpiC2z:

i dont understand how an 1 on 1 chance has got to do with tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have the same problem understanding this </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thinking is using slower tempo increases a 1 on 1 being scored as this allows players to think there to play the ball or how to score pass the keeper. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but that thinking is FM thinking not how it works irl.

IRL 1 on 1s tend to be created through quick moves not a slow buildup.

[McDoul]

IRL a well taken shot with patience ios oft better than the illconsidered snapshot so seems realistic enough.

[starry]

Come on man, if one or two guys is complaining about this. Maybe there is nothing wrong with the game. But if so many people at once complain about the game having the exact same problem.

Its gotta be something more than simply just tactics. The Si team gotta really stop denying things and really start looking into this genuine problem.

For the minority who are furiously defending SI, are u using small teams? Because we basically faces most of the problems facing inferior teams.

[McDoul]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by starry:

we basically faces most of the problems facing inferior teams. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As do I, but since Paul has said it's being looked at we'll likely see it fixed in 8.0.2 around February time.

It's not a showstopper in my opinion, just getting on with what is essentially a game after all,

[SmurfDude]

I've spent today playing most of a season. I'm afraid I've about had enough of the game with the latest patch. Far too many 1 vs 1 chances are hit right at the keeper, and for me atleast, that does make the game unplayable.

Since the games release I've tried so hard to remain patient and stick at it, but like so many other people here, I've finally snapped. For the first time I can actually say I understand why there are so many threads with people moaning, and that saddens me, because I wish I could say FM08 is the best literation of the series so far, but when it causes so much frustration, that makes it impossible to be considered the best, in my book anyway.

The closing down bug was far less annoying than this, so it's back to the beta patch, because I do really like the rest of what FM08 has to offer.

[FcPoliFan]

I have a serious problem regarding one on ones. It seems incredibly difficult to score in such instances, as the striker almost always shoots directly at the goalie. I mean ok, it's not like one on ones are surely goals, but I'm completely sick of so many one on ones being wasted by good players - and almost all in the same manner.

But this is about the only thing that really bugs me at this point.