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Fred_the_Red

Patch 8.0.1. Shots to Goal Ratio not fixed - SHOCKING!! SI Please answer - believe to be related to Closing down and Long shots bug

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on!

The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done.

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i don't see how the above post has any relevance to what the thread is about - that the game engine is deeply flawed when it comes to shots on target, particularly one on ones.

i've seen opposition sides destroy me completely and draw 0-0 because they've missed ten one on ones. what am i supposed to do, tell the ai to work on their tactics?

i want a game where i'll win more often than not if i outplay the other side, and lose more often than not if they outplay me. i want talented, clinical strikers to score goals, both for and against me, without needing six chances to do it

i don't want it to turn into a game with 15 shots on target each, where the winner is the side who can stick in the most rebounds

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's as ridiculous as to claim that a car with its pedals swapped and inverted steering should be drivable and logical...

AI is stupid and FM is unreasonable with doing what it likes like nerfing too good players, as was told even by SI. FM is beatable surely if you use glitches and disabilities of it to take advantage. Too often it has nothing to do with football itself.

Humans come along, think they can drive a car, sit on it and prepare to drive as they should. After few dozens or hundred meters they stall the car or crash to something or drive off the road. Then they blame the car because it doesn't work like a car should. Of course, to make it they should review their own actions, but who really thinks they should?

This is a bad example because it would be still logical and easily figurable that those controls are only inverted. You'd still know what to do if you wanted something, there is logic to it, it's only hard as you have used to do differently. FM isn't that simple because it has no opposite stuff to do, many things are completely out of their and everybody else's minds. You are left without a clue because AI does what it wants and you don't know how to influence it, if you even have the possibility.

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I've never experienced a problem that would warrant me to believe there is a bug, or the game is fixed, or what ever.

[B]However[/B] I am not saying you're wrong, or trying to attack anyone who expressed such views: the wonderful thing about open forum is everyone is entitled to an opinion based on experienced.

Consequently, I don't think there can be a major flaw in the game if there are a good number of people who are scratching heads at this topic and wondering what brought it all about.

This game is the most difficult (read: realistic) installment to date, and does take more thinking and fine tuned adjustments to tactics. It's not longer a case of developing one super tactic to rule them all. I noticed, when I first started playing this game, that it is a much more difficult and challenging game to master. It took me a few weeks to get my head round things, but I think I can say - touch wood - I'm finally starting to get the hang of it.

I personally don't see there being any major flaw that makes the game unplayable. That is not to say those who do are wrong - I'm not here to debate right or wrong. I'm merely providing my own humble opinion, what ever that may be.

I do not mean in any way to sound belittling, but in my view, it is merely people are not yet acclimatised to the need for greater fine tuning. Perhaps some of the people expect a one-tactic wonder that will steamroll all opposition. I admit, this would be fun in as much as you would win, but would it be as much fun as thinking about the tactics, changing them to adapt, and overcoming a smarter AI, to lead a team to glory?

Just for the record, I am Boston Utd, and while they are expected to run away with the title on this game, I have had previous games prior to this where I struggled and was mid-table. However, as stated previously, I sat down and thought about everything, read the tactic bibles posted here, and seem to be making a much better fist of it.

I hope those experiencing problems leading them to believe it is a serious flaw with the game can also eventually overcome obstacles and enjoy the game themselves.

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I'm wondering if any of those people who don't think there is a problem can explain why SI end up tweaking the match engine (as a direct result of comments made on this forum), if there is nothing wrong with the game in the first place?

Paul has already said there is going to be an updated patch which will include an updated match engine...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:Yes we have been looking into it, and other issues flagged on these forums. The plan is for there to be an update including an updated match engine sometime after the next transfer window closes </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

...why this updated match engine if there's nothing wrong with the game?? You should be thanking these guys who flag up the problems, because without them, they wouldn't get spotted and eventually fixed.

All games have 1 or 2 bugs when they are first released and we all know the boxed version of FM is going to be 'buggy' which is fair enough. It's to what degree the 'bugs' affect the gameplay which angers most I think.

This thread is more than a month old now, yet the new patch won't be out until Feb. I feel sorry for all those who are experiencing this problem and who shelled out the full price for the game back in November. After the 07 fiasco, I'm sticking to my guns and waiting for the final patch to be released before stepping into the 08 game. I don't know about anyone else but I find games hard to get into, if I know there are underlying problems which will, eventually, adversely affect the gameplay.

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[B]andygregory[/B],

Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out.

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have to say that Beta patch >>>>>> full patch for me.

I initially loaded up the full patch and got no enjoyment out of seeing so many chances missed per game. the results were ultimately accurate i suppose but it just wasn't fun.

so i heard the beta doesn't have this problem as much (though does have a few others) so i gave it a go, and honestly, i find it much improved. shots to goals ratio for both me and my opponents are good, realistic scores, and despite a problem with certain player's morale (Tuncay scores 7 in 3 games but is feeling very low [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img] ) it's made the game highly enjoyable again

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I think it is absolutely fine if FM08 is the most difficult to date or the like.

I believe many of the people here are not complain about the difficulty of the game, but the so called [B]"Tuned match engine to reflect realistic scoring rate/stats"[/B]

With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"

This sounds very horrible isnt? And SI has yet to deny with that in this hot thread which convince many of us that "tuned engine" does exist.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
No sorry I cant see how on earth you conclude that "the game is cheating"! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry Paul maybe it is hard word to say...

but we would have scores like 15-3, or 10-0 then, what I want to say the game just prevents those scores, which is good in my opinoum...but.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheating is totally the wrong word for that. The game doesnt "prevent" any score, but we tune each part of the match engine so that over 100s of games, the average no of goals/shots on target etc is close to real life.

I think when talking about these issues the key is "quality of chance". I think if there is re-balancing to be done going forward then it starts with that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the reply from Paul C in page 9 of this thread and which is the assumption of "tuned match engine" come from.

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Seems to me that the problem lies with the players lack of intelligence as to when to shoot. They seem to take shots when there is an opponent right in their face. the ammount of times I've read "X throws himself in front of ball" is ridiculous. I've seen the same with crosses and passes. The players just kick it right at the opponent, frequently. Could this have something to do with the shots to goal ratio that people are experiencing?

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pathetic to see that some just deny that there is a problem here. I win most of the games but to see my strikers miss so many one on ones with lousy keepers make me sick. it's okay if they miss 1,2 even 3 but when they miss 5-6 then it's not right.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
I think it is absolutely fine if FM08 is the most difficult to date or the like.

I believe many of the people here are not complain about the difficulty of the game, but the so called [B]"Tuned match engine to reflect realistic scoring rate/stats"[/B]

With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games"

This sounds very horrible isnt? And SI has yet to deny with that in this hot thread which convince many of us that "tuned engine" does exist. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not quite right, your input will affect the result of the match, and of course the ME is tuned, how else could it work?

What it isn't tuned to do is control the scoreline in each match separately.
As Paul has said, all the settings in the ME produce a reaslistic goal count per match over hundreds of matches.
It's obvious that you can get the required goals per game average with the actual football being slightly nonsensical, which appears to be the case here.
It follows that they need to adjust the ME so that while in match stats are more realistic the goal count remains similar.

Just to reiterate, the ME doesn't control the number of goals scored, it produces the number of goals based on it's many complex settings.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ajcardall:
[B]andygregory[/B],

Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you've never come across the opposition goalkeeper getting MoM game after game after game?

The general feeling in this thread is that the ME needs fixing to stop a problem, which I feel would ruin the game if I bought and played it right now. The same happened with 06, I learnt my lesson with 07 and am sticking to waiting for a final patch with 08.

07 is quite enjoyable to play, but we had to wait 4 months after it was released to have it that way. The same happened for 06 and is now happening with 08..... and will more than likely happen with 09.

I understand that the ME is a very complex bit of kit and I have a lot of respect for SI for developing it. I just think a bit more beta testing should be done before releasing it these days. With more and more additions to the game, they seem to be adding more and more complexity to the ME and therefore more opportunities for it to go wrong. Small 'bugs' are fine, we can live with those, however the constructive criticism in this thread has not given me the green light just yet.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on!

The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is although I have no doubt at all that the one v one issue can be tactically worked around, and is also down to certain tactics (in this players case its any tactic that has through balls on often and a single striker).

But what your failing to see is that by watching the game we are seeing our tactics working as we create shedloads of clearcut one v one situations.

Ive conceded 8 goals in 30 League 1 games this season, but am 8th because my start (especially at this level these stats are good imo) striker with 16 finishing, 14 composure, 13 pace and 17 anticipation cant score from one v ones.

This issue is nothing to do with SI producing a challenging match engine or AI- its all about it being flawed in a pretty big way.

I dont want to have to create tactics that work around flaws in the engine or beat the game. Why? Beating the game is easy, its easy to exploit flaws in the match engine and always has been- in the latest I could just allow the AI to run at my keeper knowing they wont score, and also play a high line (regardless of the speed of my defenders) with wingers crossing for fun (because defending is so awful) and a lone striker scoring also for fun.

Thats how you currently have to beat the game- not by using our real world tactical ideas but by just finding a way to beat the flawed system.

Its been like that for sometime in FM (certainly since FM07) and this player refuses to play this way in order to win, therefore I will keep moaning about the flaws until we can play the game properly, not just by having to work around flaws in the match engine.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andygregory:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ajcardall:
[B]andygregory[/B],

Perhaps the match engine does need tuning - I challenge someone to find an area that doesn't - but I have never encountered anything to suggest it is deeply flawed and bugged, as many people seem to suggest.

There is a difference between tweaking something, and ripping the whole thing out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so you've never come across the opposition goalkeeper getting MoM game after game after game?

The general feeling in this thread is that the ME needs fixing to stop a problem, which I feel would ruin the game if I bought and played it right now. The same happened with 06, I learnt my lesson with 07 and am sticking to waiting for a final patch with 08.

07 is quite enjoyable to play, but we had to wait 4 months after it was released to have it that way. The same happened for 06 and is now happening with 08..... and will more than likely happen with 09.

I understand that the ME is a very complex bit of kit and I have a lot of respect for SI for developing it. I just think a bit more beta testing should be done before releasing it these days. With more and more additions to the game, they seem to be adding more and more complexity to the ME and therefore more opportunities for it to go wrong. Small 'bugs' are fine, we can live with those, however the constructive criticism in this thread has not given me the green light just yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Much as they should acknowledge that just because they havent experienced these issues that it doesnt mean the issue doesnt exist, we also should realise that not everybody will have experienced this issue as it will depend on tactics employed.

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It's unbelievable that this argument is still going on. [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

I've said much earlier and I feel the need to say it again...most people are arguing about different things...

The ME is tuned to create a 'balanced' match, otherwise, there might be cases where 8-9 red cards are dished out every match (like before...) or strong teams keep winning by 7 to 9 goals (which is entirely realistic if the leaders of the EPL is playing their full first team against the bottom team of league two...but in this game, the realistic score is still 2-0 and they call it a hammering [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img])...

But those who harp on tactics are not entirely correct either...this game is to simulate being a football manager, not football player...

As a manager, my tactics should be to try to out-smart my opponent and find holes in his tactics and players' strengths...meaning, the point of the game is to CREATE a set of tactics that will put my high finishing players in shooting positions...after that, it is up to how good my high finishing players can do his job.

Most people who are upset with the shot to goal ratio experience their 'world class' striker missing too many good chances...unrealistically!

IRL, not many world class strikers will get too many chances to find the net (even Micky Owen sticks them in, and even when he wasn't in the game for the other 89 minutes...)...but if my tactics can put my world class strikers in scoring positions, then I think I have created a decent team tactics...
If I have 20 shots on target, and half of that came from my CD and FB, then I would not be quite so p#@$ed...BUT, if 20 shots on target with 15 from my world class stikers, them who earn top dollars in the game, and has attributes (as given by the game, doesn't matter who filled those numbers in...) and stats (either from international matches or from their previous season...) and they only get one goal out of those 15 shots...then I think I am right to feel aggrieved...


The game is then CHEATING me...it is showing me that I have bought poorly (based on the only way I can tell, which are attributes and stats...) over and over because someone who is scoring freely will miss from 6 yards week in and week out the second he joins my team...

It is also cheating me because I have no idea how to 'talk' to my players correctly...yes I understand that players will not always do what I ask, but IRL, at least I know quite precisely what I have asked them to do...not so here...there is no feedback, no way to figure out if my players are doing things ( against my wishes...) are doing it because I have given them too many conflicting instructions or if they are just trying to diss me...given the restriction of money and time, I cannot change my whole team a few time in a season to see if it is those players who are stubborn, or if my tactics is confusing them...

I am frustrated with this issue only because I care about tactics...I buy players who best fit my style of play and plan tactics to best utilise their strengths...yet...over and over, they show me that either they cannot do their jobs, or they are unwilling to follow my instructions, or they are not understanding what I am trying to tell them...

I can't blame them (unlike IRL...) because I quite often am unsure what my instructions to them are...it's mainly click and hope...there is not enough information (becuase every match is different; opponents, grounds, weather, morale, stage of training etc) for me to work out what I'm doing right or wrong...

There is NO learning curve in this game...we might get it right for a while thinking we have sussed it...then suddenly, it all goes pear shape and we are left on the side lines unable to make amends...helpless and angry (if not with the players then it has to be with SI..)...

Making the game more realistic is all well and good, and the game should not be too easy...however...and this is a huge however...this is a game...entertainment..I am not getting paid to tweak those sliders and test the ME for SI...either give me some joy or let me in on what affects what and which does which...and for the love of god, either make those with finishing and composure 20; score at least 50% of one on ones, or reduce their numbers to something realistic (like 5 and 5?)

One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones??

How many defenders in FM08 gets MOM??? In my team, only 2...in over 85 matches...both belong to my CD who scored from set pieces...while AI GK gets far too many MOMs...

SI has to come out and detail what they are going to do about this...I've been asking for a proper manual since we lost the with ball/without ball screens...and I'm still waiting...

So far...15 pages in, they are still no closer to coming out with a solution...methinks they are going to work on FM09 and hope many of us, who are trying to play the game as it should be played, would just go away... [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

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Good post Wizard. I agree wholeheartedly with everything you say.

And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time.

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Great Post Wizard.

I totally agree with you. I'm still waiting for a serius reply by SI and I ask to myself why they need two months to release a patch to fix this problem when the second beta was not affected by...

Why they dont release a new beta for "managers" who spent their money 3 months ago??

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what Paul C has said will be done, unfortunately it takes a huge chunk of time to make the changes and then test until both the overall goal tally and the actual football leading to it are seen to be right.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kriss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One point SI conceded somewhat, is that the ME is tweaked to reflect realistic scores...fair enough...but why not tweak it such that defenders (maybe even midfielders...) make better tackles and blocks instead of letting it get to those dreaded one on ones?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what Paul C has said will be done, unfortunately it takes a huge chunk of time to make the changes and then test until both the overall goal tally and the actual football leading to it are seen to be right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that mate...but how about SI updating us every other page of this thread? [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

Nah mate...I'm still praying for that manual...Santa missed my area last week [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]...well, hope springs eternal...

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There isn't anything to update in regard to the ME, tweak and test goes on until the required optimum is reached.
There isn't any stage other than in progress until it's deemed ready.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, how many bugs are actually being fixed in previous versions without new ones coming out every time which keep bothering players? Next time there will be many other issues which will keep pestering people.

While it is good that FM gets updated and SI are trying to learn from previous versions, I find it lucicrous that every new FM is just an update of the earlier version. FM 2007 and FM 2008 are different games, so why is FM 2008 patch called 8.x.x.? Where is FM 2008 version 1? SI are only offering us just an update of the game with each version a little honed from previous, but with older bugs and new ones. We are just getting new database and skins. What's more amusing is that people are actually paying for each "test" version. I'll buy the game next time 2030 when FM 2005 has become a bug free and great FM 2030.

The point is that there will be no fixing of FM 2008. After the next patch (which is directly contributing to FM 09 I guess) there will be no patches for FM 08 and people are left with a buggy game which they have bought and paid for. If you want a more fixed FM 08, you'll have to get your hands on FM 09 or something. Wonder then why people don't buy their FM 08 again but download it for free [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img].

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Ok. Just finished the 1st full season with this official 8.0.1 patch and this is absolutely nightmare!

Prime example from the season... Champions League Semi againts Real Madrid. I had 63 shots (39 on target... and NO these were not from midfield shots...) ...Real Madrid had 16 shots in total and ended up winning 4-1 and reached the final.

I didn't even count how many times opposing goalkeeper was awarded man of the match award.

This "official" patch is complete rubbish. I don't know what BETA release I was playing but it was far better than this nonsense.

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I too have at least double the shots on goal then my opposition in virtually every game. The problem is the one-on-ones. I always played with alot of through balls, but in FM08 its litteraly impossible to score one-on-one with the keeper. If the keeper has 15+ in reflexes he will always save them, doesnt matter if you use Aguero, Henry, Villa or whoever. I probably have an average of 5 one-on-ones per game, so thats how the shot on goal go up so much. I have seen some ridicolus situations where the keeper can make 5 string super saves going from one post to the other in milliseconds.


In fm08 a one-on-one with the GK isnt even a chance. You gotta use wingers, get them to cross from byline, then its a bigger chance of scoring.

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If all one-on-ones were goals then most people would be winning 12-0 every match. Then people would start complaining that the game is too easy [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]

The real problem is that the defense is seriously flawed in the game. It can be beaten very easily. A long ball comes to a striker, defenders go away from the goal and the striker has a one-on-one chance. Or they simply do nothing. This is why there are too many shots and why SI had to reduce the goals scored from them.

I presume fixing the defense would have taken too long and they had to release something as soon as possible (i'm talking about 8.0.1 patch here). So they reduced the amount of goals.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The match results are not pre-determined.

And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

Cheers,
Paul

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The match results are not pre-determined.

And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thx a lot for your reply and i am glad you say that the match result is no pre-determined. [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The match results are not pre-determined.

And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul what are we expeted to see in this update? An improvment in the shots to goal ratio? what other fixes are in development?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jopo12:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:
And regarding FM09, fixing it for FM08 does fix it for FM09- I'll be surprised (actually shocked) if it isnt fixed, especially considering they have said the patch is due in around a months time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, how many bugs are actually being fixed in previous versions without new ones coming out every time which keep bothering players? Next time there will be many other issues which will keep pestering people.

While it is good that FM gets updated and SI are trying to learn from previous versions, I find it lucicrous that every new FM is just an update of the earlier version. FM 2007 and FM 2008 are different games, so why is FM 2008 patch called 8.x.x.? Where is FM 2008 version 1? SI are only offering us just an update of the game with each version a little honed from previous, but with older bugs and new ones. We are just getting new database and skins. What's more amusing is that people are actually paying for each "test" version. I'll buy the game next time 2030 when FM 2005 has become a bug free and great FM 2030.

The point is that there will be no fixing of FM 2008. After the next patch (which is directly contributing to FM 09 I guess) there will be no patches for FM 08 and people are left with a buggy game which they have bought and paid for. If you want a more fixed FM 08, you'll have to get your hands on FM 09 or something. Wonder then why people don't buy their FM 08 again but download it for free [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree with all of this.

But IMO it would be madness for SI to leave certain areas as is- as imo its got to the point where people will start walking away for the very same reasons you state.

This series is getting very stale indeed.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LillyWhiteBoy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:

FM has pretty much always been about creating a self-sustaining football world that a human user can take part in. Get the AI numbers right is incredibly important.

The other important thing, which is not at acceptable levels yet imo, is the feedback that the user is given by the AI world. We need to know how the world of football works - FM may not work exactly like the real world, but it's the FM world we need to understand. The game should be giving us a lot more information.

For example, take Fred here. If he could click a button called "tactical analyser" and then be given a few hints and tips about what might be going wrong, and what might be going right, he'd then be in a much better position to get his tactics working as he wants them to. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spot on!

The point, for those that seem to have missed it, is that in an AI vs AI game, both teams "play" the game on a level footing, ie, they use the game's built in tactics, tweaked and honed over years of refining the game's data and code.

Humans come along, thinks he can do better, puts his tactics together on the space of minutes/hours, buys a bunch of stars to play them (whether it suits their style of play or not) and when some are not successful quickly enough, they blame the game, rather than reviewing their own tactics.

No I don't have stats, and I find them boring even WHEN they can prove a bug exists because of the following reason.

The first version of the game I played was CM 4. With that version, and EVERY version since I have never once, been unable to find a way to adapt tactically, to the point where I can consistently have winning seasons. How long does it take to get on top of a new version of the game? Usually take me several months of starting games, adjusting tactics, interpreting results, refining, replacing, re-working. Basically the sort of thing a real manager does when given enough time at a club (sorry Sam, that was meant as a cheap shot at the geordies).

Yes, I'm a mad fool who howls in frustration at Jermain Defoe when he backpasses to his own keeper from the opposition six yard line and an open goal behind him. Yes, I abuse players and referees alike at the number of a opponents who score their first goal of the year against MY teams.

BUT!!. Every single season, I stick at it, tweaking, refining, rebuilding until I beat this damn game, just so I can sit back and DARE SI to make a game I can't whip!

So have some patience, display some real discipline, get your heads down and WORK at beating the game. Don't wait for the game to lie down for you, don't edit the data, find your own way to beat the game. It CAN be done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Some people are busy and don't have hours and hours to edit tactics every day. It is our job to do minor changes (ex. man marking if necessary, deep defending if it's a fast team, etc.) but most people aren't tactical experts and change the whole thing every 2 games.

2. Most people are complaining about results over time not just after 10 games, but after 2-3 seasons of dealing with the same BS. Some people don't mind losing, but after 3 seasons even the calmest of people will explode with anger at the bugs.

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stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.

I took a look at the italian Serie A statistics, Roma, Inter, Milan generally have a total of 6/15 shots per match.
Great players have max 2 or 3 big occasions during the match and they generally don't miss a second chance.

I give up

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by laska98:
stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i got a better example, champs league game, 7th season, my last game had 64 shots, 43 shots on target,3 goals. this would make 1 shot every 80 seconds i think . this is an averall stats of my team and the opposite team. very realistic...

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeathSpawn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by laska98:
stop playing this game, too many shots (sometimes one every 2 or 3 minutes) just add the miss ratio for one-to-one situation and you're really bored about this game.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i got a better example, champs league game, 7th season, my last game had 64 shots, 43 shots on target,3 goals. this would make 1 shot every 80 seconds i think . this is an averall stats of my team and the opposite team. very realistic... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
there was also 26 throw ins, 25 fouls, 9 offsides how on earth could the players have time to do all this??? were they moving at speed of light???

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The match results are not pre-determined.

And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm confused about this
[B]All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.[/B]

As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7??????
Is this how it is?
In previous versions i have always been able to get a average of 2,9 goals per game as i play super attacking with WC players.
Don't care about how many the opposition score against me i just want to score boat loads of goals. Might not be realistic to play that way but the "fun" factor about the game has been the balance of realism to "escape from realism".

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7?????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, that;s not how it is.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> originally posted by nymanr:-

I'm confused about this
All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As i understand it to give a extreme example: if i score 5 goals/game over 50 games will this then mean that over the next 50 i will not score at all so my goal/game average gets tuned down to a acceptable 2,5-2,7??????
Is this how it is?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a disclaimer it's been a long time since I studied programming in college and never really used it in my working life. But what I assume PaulC means by tuning is the following:-

The match engine is basically a giant calculator that takes in all of the variables (player attributes, morale, happiness, player condition, tactical settings plus a little bit of randomness thrown in) and outputs a result in an attempt to simulate real life football.

Let's say we start out with Version 1 of the match engine. Run a certain number of test matches that are statistically significant so as to produce reliable results (not reliable in the sense that thay are accurate with respect to real life but that they can be used as a measure of what the user can expect to happen).

After this Version 1 test the statistics are out of skew with respect to what they are trying to simulate i.e. real life football. So they go back to the match engine and make some changes to the calculation (what PaulC refers to as tuning). This is now Version 2 of the match engine.

Run the same number of tests with Version 2 and again compare what results you get to the results you want. If these don't match up again, then return to the match engine and change some other elements of the calculation to produce Version 3.

Now run tests on Version 3 as with Versions 1 and 2. And on and on until a version of the match engine is reached that produces the desired results.

That is essentially what 'tuning' is.

What you are referring to would mean that the match engine 'auto corrects' itself so that the results a human user produces do not deviate significantly from what could be realistically expected. I might be naive but I doubt SI would do that (or would they [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]).

PS Apologies to PaulC if I am wrong about what he means by tuning.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nymanr:
Then what does he mean by that comment? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How effective each attribute is, how effective morale is, how effective luck is etc - it's all tuned so that, on average, the match engine gives realistic statistics over many hundereds of matches.

This is tested AIvAI as it's a hell of alot quicker.

There's nothing that works like "youve scored 50 so you can't score anymore". It's all about tuning how much influence each attribute has on the result of a match.

Does that make sense?

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Well i always thought it was done as [B]isuckatfm [/B] and [B]Ackter[/B] explained it.
But when you read PaulC's statement on it he does not give any explanation on how it is.
(can read the statement in different ways)
Just wanted to have some clarification on it so i wouldn't have to worry about the horror scenario of it being the way i read his statement.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ackter:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nymanr:
Then what does he mean by that comment? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How effective each attribute is, how effective morale is, how effective luck is etc - it's all tuned so that, on average, the match engine gives realistic statistics over many hundereds of matches.

This is tested AIvAI as it's a hell of alot quicker.

There's nothing that works like "youve scored 50 so you can't score anymore". It's all about tuning how much influence each attribute has on the result of a match.

Does that make sense? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ofcourse attributes do matter.

...but if nymanr is "correct" with his assumptions and he just might be than it would explain quite a few things.

* "The Super AI goalies". Even if PaulC said that matches are not predetermined than someway they must be. Since this 1:1 miss bug is added to keep the score levels down. By thus meaning that there are limits etc on the scores meaning that nymanr is "correct".

* AI picking up on your tactics theory. I can read post after post how tactic stopped working. I have read enough of these threads but commonly it seemed to have worked 15-20 games than slump... hard to score etc etc. nymanrs conclusions would explain this too.

* Would also explain why there are "diablo" tactics. Personally I doubt the Match Engine intelligence hasn't improved that much from those days.

Just few thoughts.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rickooko:
With this "tuned" match engine, no matter what u do with your tactic, players, subsititions or whatever, the match result is pre-determined in order to reflect a realistic goal rate in "100 games" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a complete misunderstanding of what I said.

The match results are not pre-determined.

And we have no artificial limits on any scoreline.

All we have done is tune things so that the stats over 100's of game match up as close as possible to the stats we have for real life football.

As said elsewhere, there will be a match engine update after the transfer window. All constructive feedback we recieved on these and other forums has been very helpful in making the improvements within that update.

Cheers,
Paul </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I understand it, there is a built in non-linear mechanism in the goals/Shots on target ratio. So if team A creates 15 shots on target that are, as represented by the 2d display, of equal quality to 3 shots on target team B creates, the chance of team A converting individual chances from their 15 shots is lower than the conversion rate of team B, and this is called 'tuning' to create realistic scores? This effect is compounded by the loss of confidence by team A's strikers when they continually miss their chances to the point where the likely score in such a scenario, all else being equal, is 1-1. This is realistic because 1-1 is a realistic score in football... but at the same time it's 'unfair' and frustrating for the user.

I'm glad to know that your guys are correcting the issue. The important thing to remember is that 'realism' is ultimately limited by the parameters of the computer game. There are two types of realism, and IMO for a game like FM, achieving realism of the [B]process[/B] is far more important than achieving realism in the [B]outcome[/B]. This is because the process is directly linked to the way users [B]play[/B] the game and it is the lack thereof that frustrates users - the customers. Taking shortcuts in representing the process in which outcomes are reached, such as through the use of the 4-2-4, the constant AI tweaking of tactics that users physically cannot achieve (this actually amounts to AI 'cheating', IMO), 'tuning' of the SOT/goals ratio to achieve realistic scores etc frustrate the user, and only produces cosmetic realism.

I hope the patch will rectify these issues, and that SI will reassess their yardstick on what makes a good game.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The important thing to remember is that 'realism' is ultimately limited by the parameters of the computer game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this concept is related to another word "customer".

Consider a match with a realistic number of opportunities/shots/1:1, probably viewing the match in full mode could be
somehow boring. But if you attempt to play with "realism" in mind probably you're quite happy.

But there're a lot of people looking for killing tactics or super teams to demolish "enemy defence" with a thousands shots
on first half. And for someone this could be funny too.

The actual match engine could be a mix of this concepts, realistic results with fun on the field.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are two types of realism, and IMO for a game like FM, achieving realism of the process is far more important than achieving realism in the outcome. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely. Unfortunately SI relies on AI-vs-AI testing. While this might validate realistic outcomes its give no insight into the process. You can't help but wonder if 1000 AI-vs-AI games ended 1-1, but all the goal were own goals, whether SI would notice.

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You'd think then, that the way forward would be to use AI tactics - sadly i've tried this for ages and they don't work at all well.

I made good progress with the 1st beta patch, getting into 2013 with Blyth Spartans in the Championship - but i was so off put by the ridiculous scores - there was never a 0-0 in my games or ai vs ai games - lots of 4-1's, 3-0's, 3-3's etc. So i upgraded to the official patch for 2 seasons, and that was even worse. Now the scores are official but even if i play with a defensive formation i still end up having 25 shots on target and them all being straight at the keeper [img]http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

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In my experience the patched Match Engine leaves a little to be desired. I don't find scoring goals is a problem. I scored over 100 in a single season with Millwall in Div. 1. This was without cheating or editing.


The two problems I have identified based on several games in different leagues.

1) It's not worth lashing out on better strikers because the expensive ones will miss almost as many chances. This leads to a decrease in realism.

2) You don't need to bother with an expensive goalie as AI strikers are bound to miss the target more often than not.

The way to succeed is to play boring set-piece based football and use wingers who can deliver the ball at pace from the byline.

Trying to unleash a striker behind the defence is usually a waste of time.

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1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.
To clear things - you can rush your one on one chance by quick shot, or you can round keeper 7 times, wait 4 defenders, round them all, then round keeper again and finally score with heel kick.
Thats rough difference between fast and slow tempo applied to once on ones. And yes, it's works that way.

2. IRL realization of one-on-ones not better than 30%, honestly. That guy that named anything less than 80% stupid - should watch more football.

3. With proper tactics you have no problems with realization of shots. Quick tip: find a way to base your game around short crosses inside box. It's most potent chances with current match engine (actually, real life aswell)
I, personally, have 2 tactics exploiting it, while overall approach and formations differs

I don't want this game become easier, because it's easy as is. I am terribly bored to win EPL and Ch.Cup 5 times in a row.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gogis:
1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
gogis may have a point here, as I progress up the leagues and bring down my tempo to match the better quality passing I expect from my players I'm scoring a lot more 1 on 1's.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by soundian:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gogis:
1. FYI - tempo affects quality of realization of 1on1's, if you fail to realize it - try and test more, watch full matches with that setting on max and on min.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
gogis may have a point here, as I progress up the leagues and bring down my tempo to match the better quality passing I expect from my players I'm scoring a lot more 1 on 1's. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's easily to procreate.

I simply went thru ~30 matches vs same opponent (Arsenal, 2nd best after me in EPL) and played straight half matches with very quick tempo and then with slow.

Observations so far:
1. At slow tempo players DO NOT slow game intentionally, if they have good offer - they pass. Slowing game down by passing alot back and force related to TIME WASTING.
Slow tempo is by no means slowing game. It's just way more rationale.

2. Quick tempo - leads to alot of quick passes, with raised amount of passes overboard, it's way safer to be caught by pressure, but you increase chances being intercepted.

3. Quick tempo - players make alot of quick shots, (HENCE, PLAING QUICK, funny, yes?)INCLUDING ONE-ON-ONE SITUATIONS. YES IT IS, IT AFFECTS.

And final conclusions

Quick - rely on passing, breaking high closing down, vulnerable to interceptions. Many chances, but not really formidable

Slow - rely on control, possession, players off the ball work. Vulnerable to high closing down, but passing is better abroad. Players NOT ALWAYS TEND TO RUSH SHOTS, in fact, i notice they sometimes tend to mek short passes/crosses across 6 yard box, which is funny

And grand conclusions:
It's self explanatory, that passing and tempo should match, or atleast to be close by.

I don't see why should i ever use tempo above normal, only proper use i see - you REALLY need goal, which is not usual situation and starting point of any match, really.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gogis:
I don't see why should i ever use tempo above normal, only proper use i see - you REALLY need goal, which is not usual situation and starting point of any match, really. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you play the lower leagues where the passing attribute of your defenders is quite often <7 and even your midfield struggle to get into double figures a quick tempo,long passing game is your best bet. Better to lose the ball in the opposition half than give it away on the edge of your box.

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Hi there

I'm pretty new to this and I'm downloading the patch right now.
I have a fe questions.
1. Is the patch worth it?
2. Will the patch locate FM or do I have to do that myself?

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