kipfizh

AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

2,156 posts in this topic

Amazing. Kip hasn't been on here for 8 months but somehow knows that this thread was upped and appears from nowhere? The man's obviously some kind of freaky, psychic googlebot!

Great to see you back though, and I'm positivily giddy at the news that this will eventually be returning as I was sure it was dead and gone for good. It's quite strange thinking back that it was 4 years ago now when the first one started, and I've followed it from pretty much the first day. I think I remember posting on the first page of the first experiment saying how interesting it sounded. I had no idea back then what a beast it would become. But anyway, I'm getting all nostalgic and I'm digressing.

e) Make all starlets and idiots an entirely random nationality. - This would be my vote for the next experiment. Because at the end of the day it is an AI experiment, and the original provided a lot of insight into the workings of some aspects of the AI. Stuff that was taken onboard and improved for future iterations of the game. And this is the option that gives the most balance experiment imo. As you have pointed out, you could get a very small nation ending up with 2 or 3 starlets, and it would be very interesting to see the effects this would have on the game world. Similarly, you could end up with a medium nation - someone like Belgium - who have 2 or 3 idiots. Again it would be interesting to see the impact these players have on the national team. They will be too good to not be picked, but will their talent be enough to improve an average national team, or will their bad influence make the team worse overall?

But whatever option you go with I can't wait.

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Amazing. Kip hasn't been on here for 8 months but somehow knows that this thread was upped and appears from nowhere? The man's obviously some kind of freaky, psychic googlebot!

Does not compute. Cover blown. Self-destruct in five....four....three....

No, in all seriousness, it wasn't a coincidence - 5ergio pointed me in this direction - I'd love to claim psychic powers but I wouldn't want to be as much of a fraud as.....well, those who claim psychic powers.

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Just to let you know kipfizh that using the Advanced Rules of the editor it is possible to change the work permit settings.

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Just to let you know kipfizh that using the Advanced Rules of the editor it is possible to change the work permit settings.

Advertising, I like it! :p

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So at the moment, the winning combination would be to pick dual nationality for each player, where one nationality is a low-ranking EU nation and the other is a low-ranking nation from somewhere else in the world.

I haven't commented yet, but this does look like the perfect solution.

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You could always split up the players so that they are equally distriputed between each continent. That way we could see the Bandits having all the major International trophies.

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Fantastic news about FM12 experiment.

My opininion about nationality - dual, with first being fully random, between any nation in the world, and second nationality English (but not declared for England, unless first nationality is drawn to be English).

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So at the moment, the winning combination would be to pick dual nationality for each player, where one nationality is a low-ranking EU nation and the other is a low-ranking nation from somewhere else in the world.

Seconded - but I'd vote for the 2nd nationality to be any EU country, but the player to be declared for the small nation. I've started a similar experiment just focussed on the effect on the country. The starlets are still young, and havent broken in, but will report back on my findings on where teams like Samoa, Andorra and the US Virgin Islands are. I got round the work permit issue easily - there is an editor option to add certain nations to the "EU" for specific country, so for the purposes of my game, the following nations are all part of the EU as far as England is concerned:

Andorra

Sint Maarten

Tuvalu

Zanzibar

American Samoa

Monserrat

Papua New Guinea

Reunion

St Lucia

St Pierre & Miquelon

Aruba

Djibouti

French Guiana

Guadeloupe

Martinique

Mayotte

Northern Mariana

San Marino

St Martin

Tahiti

Turks & Caicos Islands

US Virgin Islands

So far, there seems to be very little impact on the nations except that the grey players and regens tend to start having the same names as the starlets (as I set all their first names as "Legend", there are a lot of people called this now!). Once the regens start playing for the senior international sides, I think things will start to change. Its probably the easiest way to get around this work permit issue. Realistic it aint as much as the last one, but is realism really what we're after here?

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kip is back! :D

I'll go with what most others have gone for.

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The kids are starting to make their mark on the international scene now - will let you know how much difference it makes. Will they qualify for 2014? Doubt it....

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Just starting to move up the rankings, though, these boosted teams. Andorra have so far been the biggest movers. All of those countries were in the bottom screen of the world rankings originally - from rank 187 downwards. Andorra are now ranked 169. Hard to see why they've moved up. They've only beaten Chinese Taipei, Moldova and Kuwait since the game started, and managed just one point in their European Championship qualifying group. To be honest, the funny names are the biggest difference to the game I've seen so far. Nothing dramatic, but again, the legends are only 15/16.

EDT: None of the teams who were allocated legends made it into the 2nd, league phase of North American qualifying for 2014. Wonder how long it will take for them to improve significantly.....this might suggest that the legends are too diluted, but they are still young....

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Ideally I like the idea of random countries, but the work permit is an issue. Unless you set them all to have English as a second nationality (since they've come through the youth academy of the clubs) but make sure they are declared for their main nation. Thereby having the best of both worlds! Voila!

The randomness would be fun, and the chance for Armenia, or similar, to end up with a couple of starlet strikers would be fun to see.

This one gets my vote. If each of the 50 worst countries in the world get a starlet they are more likely to "cancel each other out" so I would prefer it if the nations were picked completely at random (one starlet could even become English only!).

I've been waiting for this day for so long :D

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Hi guys! In honour of kip I made a FM2010 version for myself but I put all the starlets (40 something of them) as either Andorra, Luxembourg, San Marino, Armenia, Azerbaijan(spelling), Faroe Islands, Liechtenstein, Albania and Malta. Andorra and San Marino got GK, LB, CB, RB, RM, LM, CM and ST all of an orginal 150 CA at the age of 16. Andorra just qualified for the World Cup 2010 and lost all 3 games in it whilst San Marino came about 5th in their group.

Luxembourg got the same but 125CA LB, RB, RM, LM and got quite close to qualification on both occasions. Armenia got the same again but LB, RB were 125 CA and RM was 200. They missed out on qualification for Euro 2012 by being the worst second place points scorer.

Azerbaijan and Faroe Islands only got a CB, CM and ST all at 125 CA and came 2nd bottom in qualifiying both times. Liechtstein were meant to get a CB, CM and ST at 200 CA but they dont get to play for Liechtenstein due to cpyright (i think). Malta got CM, CB and ST all at 150 CA and did slightly better than the Faroes and Azerbaijan. Albania got the 4 idiots and did nothing special again.

Note: All players had height 210 :)

The reason for this lack of progress (in my view) is that the AI mangers for these nations are so bad that they dont always play the starlets and rather leave them on the bench, and when they need a win against lets say Belarus, they would rather hang on for the draw instead of going for the win. Another problem is that injuries and suspensions do come round quite regularly and effect each game, making the nations very inconsistent. However, they could probably beat anyone on their day and it is very interesting to watch.

Now I have just started a FM2011 version and am 1 season through I made an extra 21 players (there is now a duplicate button in the editor for players :D) who can all play any position but GK. Added to that I made every starlet have 20 finishing, composure, jumping and heading to see if it had any effect. I also adjusted the players with 200 CA to 175 CA and the ones with 125 CA to 130 CA, and moved all Maltese/Liechtenstein/Albanian players to Azerbaijan/ Faroe Islands. Yet again the nations have been very inconsistent even the likes of San Marino who have 13 starlets.... the only 3 nations with a hope of qualifying are Armenia, Luxembourg and Azerbaijan for Euro 2012. However, I am interested to see what the future holds.

So my advive/ opinion for your 2012 version would be: Assuming you have the same amount of starlets again next year put them all in two lower ranked nations, maybe stronger ones than I did or you could put them in different continents which would be interesting as well.

If anyone has any questions feel free to ask :). Sorry for bad spelling/ grammar I am in a rush!

Oh and... thanks for such a great read Kip :D

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a) Make all starlets and idiots English only (as FM07) England will destroy all else

b) Make all starlets English only and all idiots another nationality only As (a), especially since idiots now seem incapable of succeeding

c) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality - English and one other, where that other nationality is different each time (as FM09) Strong England, a few dotted starlets will make other teams competitive

d) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality - English and one other, where the 'other' is picked from a pool of 4-5 leading nations. As ©, although a tighter group of "decent" nations

e) Make all starlets and idiots an entirely random nationality. Anything could happen

f) Make all starlets and idiots an entirely random nationality, but make sure no nation is picked twice. As (e)

g) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality, where both nationalities are picked at random. Likely to be same as before, but prevent any really poor nations getting a starlet

h) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality, where both nationalities are picked at random, but no nation is ever picked twice. As (g)

i) Split the starlets and idiots in half, between two nationalities, so that both country could play 11 starlets if they wanted. As (a), but with two nations. World SPL every four years

So I'm going for (e).

One of the most interesting things about your experiments are their ability to explore the unknown. We found out the idiots' ability to disrupt a team in the first experiment, the ability of a player played in the wrong position to flop even if they were unbelievably talented, and in the second experiment, the ability of a rich chairman to bankroll success with stupid wages, and the failure of idiots to ever reach their abilities, so on and so forth.

It would be fascinating to see how the starlets can benefit their various nations. Can one single starlet bring Argentina/Holland to the top of the world, or will they still fall behind Spain, Brazil etc? Can a starlet dig a rubbish team out of the mire, like San Marino? If so, which position? Does a world class goalkeeper enable a poor team to "do a Greece", and succeed by lucking out on penalties? Or do you need a midfield general who can close out opposition attacks, and spray passes to less talented compatriots with enough space to get the ball down and score? Or do you need a top striker who can take on an entire team and decimate them, outnumbering the goals let in by the hapless defenders?

If one of those options is going to tell us more about FM, I suspect it has to be option (e). Option (f) is very similar, but prevents us from having the possibility of two players combining, which gives us yet another dimension.

Very much looking forward to the coming developments Kip :)

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So I'm going for (e).

One of the most interesting things about your experiments are their ability to explore the unknown. We found out the idiots' ability to disrupt a team in the first experiment, the ability of a player played in the wrong position to flop even if they were unbelievably talented, and in the second experiment, the ability of a rich chairman to bankroll success with stupid wages, and the failure of idiots to ever reach their abilities, so on and so forth.

It would be fascinating to see how the starlets can benefit their various nations. Can one single starlet bring Argentina/Holland to the top of the world, or will they still fall behind Spain, Brazil etc? Can a starlet dig a rubbish team out of the mire, like San Marino? If so, which position? Does a world class goalkeeper enable a poor team to "do a Greece", and succeed by lucking out on penalties? Or do you need a midfield general who can close out opposition attacks, and spray passes to less talented compatriots with enough space to get the ball down and score? Or do you need a top striker who can take on an entire team and decimate them, outnumbering the goals let in by the hapless defenders?

If one of those options is going to tell us more about FM, I suspect it has to be option (e). Option (f) is very similar, but prevents us from having the possibility of two players combining, which gives us yet another dimension.

Very much looking forward to the coming developments Kip :)

Good points, well made. Since the idea of the original experiment was to see how FM deals with certain extraordinary occurrences, it might be an idea to try and explore a few of these. Dependent on how many starlets and idiots there are going to be in the next experiment, you could do something like this :

11 starlets (one in each position) in one major nation such as England, Spain, Italy etc

5 starlets (varied positions) in a medium nation (Austria, Hungary etc)

3 starlets (one defender, one midfielder and one attacker) in a small nation (Estonia, Montenegro etc)

1 starlet in a tiny nation (Liechtenstein, Andorra, San Marino etc)

5 starlets (varied positions) in a tiny nation

1 starlet in a medium nation

and the same for the idiots (that's 26 of each idiot.) I'd suggest doing this all in Europe as there's more variation in the quality of nations there than any other region, plus it would help with the work permit issue.

As another variation without actually using the starlets or idiots it might be interesting to remove all the players with a PA over say 130 from one major nation, just to see how they bounce back as regens come through. (My preference for this would be France :D )

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snooty_jim and others, very well argued case. I think you touch on a particularly valuable point, which is the variety of things we can find out. The desire to see what effect stars had on San Marino doesn't actually mean all 22 starlets have to be at poor nations - a handful will be enough to see what effect they have.

So, perhaps I'll write a little bit of code (it's what I do, after all), that takes all the names and assign them to random countries, and run that in a loop until at least one country has two or more (just so we don't have 26 distinct nations, it'll be fun if SOMEONE has an advantage). Then, I'll either give all the players a second nationality of English, but declare them for their chosen nation, or fiddle with the EU settings, depending on how the new editor works.

The selected countries might affect which countries I run on full detail - would a Turkish star return to his homeland if the league was fully available?

Ok, next poll:

This one is regarding the idiots. I won't disclose my plans for how many, positions etc, because that's all set in my mind, but I do want to make them more interesting than they were in FM09. Just to recap, in FM07 they were superb players who fell out with everyone, but had the ability to play well. It meant they travelled around a lot and never really tasted success, but their raw talent was such that every struggling club was willing to 'give them a go'. In FM09, all the players started with 150 CA and 200 PA, and the idiots actually got worse year on year, because a greater link was made between personality and training.

As a result, in FM09, they were nigh on useless. No-one got on with them, but their lack of progression meant that they would be doomed to a life of mediocrity. All valuable info to learn, but not very interesting.

This year, they will change again. They will still be stunningly talented, highly controversial, disloyal hackers and divers, who dislike the Bandits, each other and anyone who isn't a 'yes man'. But, and this is a big but, I'm considering making it so that despite all their flaws, they are actually hard working players, with the rationale that even with their idiotness, they are self-aware and selfish enough to know that they need to put in some yards.

So here are some options. Again, pick your favourite, or suggest something else.

a) Make them as FM07 and FM09, and see how the game handles them now.

b) Maximise their workrate and determination, to make them work at their own game, but otherwise make them as FM07 and FM09.

c) Make two factions - half of them a), half of them more hard-working, determined by equally controversial and disloyal. Make both factions like everyone else in their faction, and hate the other side.

d) Other....

Thoughts?

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I'd go with c. I'm pretty sure FM12 will treat the idiots just as in FM09 as they will not give their bests but to track a few players that can become world beaters waste their careers in mediocrity is just as entertaining. On the other hand, we should definitely have a few self aware idiots that knows they have to train to be good but they are controversial as much as they are hard working :)

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I'd go with half-half, i.e. Option C.

A hard-working but controversial player would be like Tevez, wouldn't it? You can't argue that he puts his head down and gives his all during games, but he just can't keep his mouth shut and stop complaining...

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Agree with the two above. Option C for me too.

It'll not only be more fun if you keep it from us, (at least initially) so we don't know which idiots will work hard, and which won't. But it also offers another level of comparison to see how the game handles extremes.

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BenArsenal - Hard working controversial would surely be much more of a Balotelli? No-one doubts he's brilliant, and has got better, but he remains a true knob. Similar, I guess, with Barton, Cassano and the like. Whereas the otherend of the 'idiot-spectrum' are players like Jermaine Pennant (though he's turning full-circle), who never reach their lauded potential, and perhaps Axel Witsel is getting that way. Nigel de Jong also springs to mind, but his off-field antics aren't reported on much...

So with the two, we could see a Balotelli/Gazza version of an idiot versus a Witsel/Paul Merson version - never quite getting there, but still being quality in their own way

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I know you have already made you decision of how the players get their nationality, which includes making sure players are eligible for work permits, but I think a completely random method has merit, as if players end up coming from a non-EU background, it would be interesting to see how that impacts their career, whether they stay in England to gain a dual nationality or move abroad to a league without work permit rules - as you said, this experiment is all about seeing how extreme situations are handled - in this case having a star player who is having trouble getting a work permit! Therefore, I would vote for (e) or (g)

As far as the idiots dilema goes, I would be leaning towards ©, again to see what we can learn from both batches of idiots

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Option C for me too. Good to see this will be back. Remember finding the FM07 thread when the players were at their peak and catching up with it over the course of a few days, slowing down as I got closer to the latest posts so I wouldn't 'finish it too soon', a habit I have when reading a particularly good book :)

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Option C for me :)

Think it would be interesting to see how much the engine has changed in regards to how it calculates work rate, training and a rise in CA.

Either option C

or D

And have it so that you set them all up as idiots and then have their work rate as a random stat, which means then when you load you may not have exactly half and half, but a random selection of players who may have high work rate, average, low and stupidly low.

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BenArsenal - Hard working controversial would surely be much more of a Balotelli? No-one doubts he's brilliant, and has got better, but he remains a true knob. Similar, I guess, with Barton, Cassano and the like. Whereas the otherend of the 'idiot-spectrum' are players like Jermaine Pennant (though he's turning full-circle), who never reach their lauded potential, and perhaps Axel Witsel is getting that way. Nigel de Jong also springs to mind, but his off-field antics aren't reported on much...

So with the two, we could see a Balotelli/Gazza version of an idiot versus a Witsel/Paul Merson version - never quite getting there, but still being quality in their own way

I wouldn't put Balotelli as hardworking. More like supremely talented but idiotic. A bit like Maradona actually.

Some people can get away with anything purely on talent.

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just nice to see Kip back and a few other familiar contributors, interested to see what happens next

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I'd go with option C. It would be good to see how's selfishness vs lazyness in FM

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I have an additional idea for the experiment:

Make some "celebrities"; players with extremely high reputations but are absolutely useless at football. Make some of them come from big nations such as England, Brazil and Spain and the others will come from minnows such as the Faroe Islands, Macau (China PR) and Anguilla. It would help figure out many things about the game, such as whether one player's reputation can affect attendances and it will also be intriguing and interesting to observe.

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So i am a little late to the "party" but i got a feeling to check out this board after months and months of not doing so. So yay "They're back" :D

Anyways i vote C and not letting us know which batch of Bandits are which until they retire.

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This is still going on?

lol

lol

lol

c) Make two factions - half of them a), half of them more hard-working, determined by equally controversial and disloyal. Make both factions like everyone else in their faction, and hate the other side.

That gets the nod from me. More "fun" factor and also the greatest scope for insight.

Hope you are keeping well Kip. ;)

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I don't know if I'm the only one, but my main focus in reading this was on the teams performances. After about 3 seasons you simply know what's coming at te players. The idiots keep stagnating and act like idiots, while the bandits slowly build their monumental carreers. After the third season I only read the team reports. And I bet that keeping up with al the statistics is a hell of a lot of work, wich - imho - was unnecessary.

I've read alot of stories over the past years here, this was one of the best of them.

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Welcome Back Kip!

Option C gets my vote, as its really like having the Best, the worst and the few in between.

In regards to the players' nationality, I have a feeling that one good player wont make much of a difference in the larger sense (World Cups, etc) but it definitely does in the qualification stages. This is what I notice in my save anyway. The lower nations and randomizing a loop to have 2-3 for a couple of nations sound like a better idea than randomizing everyone as it gives them a chance to compete in the major competitions, not just qualifying rounds. Otherwise, it will be a case of lost in the crowd of international obscurity.

Really great to see you back Kip... Bring on FM12!

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Oh my, seems I've been away from this forum for a bit too long. Welcome back, Kip! :)

I can't wait for this new experiment, it's gonna be awesome. And I like the idea of both random nations, to see what effect the players have on their chosen nations, and of split-dedication idiots, it will be interesting to see how much a hard-working self-absorbed loudmouth can achieve :)

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I would vote for letting the game treat the idiots as the same as FM09, I would like to see if things differ at all, although I'm definitely outnumbered here...........

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snooty_jim and others, very well argued case. I think you touch on a particularly valuable point, which is the variety of things we can find out. The desire to see what effect stars had on San Marino doesn't actually mean all 22 starlets have to be at poor nations - a handful will be enough to see what effect they have.

So, perhaps I'll write a little bit of code (it's what I do, after all), that takes all the names and assign them to random countries, and run that in a loop until at least one country has two or more (just so we don't have 26 distinct nations, it'll be fun if SOMEONE has an advantage). Then, I'll either give all the players a second nationality of English, but declare them for their chosen nation, or fiddle with the EU settings, depending on how the new editor works.

The selected countries might affect which countries I run on full detail - would a Turkish star return to his homeland if the league was fully available?

Ok, next poll:

This one is regarding the idiots. I won't disclose my plans for how many, positions etc, because that's all set in my mind, but I do want to make them more interesting than they were in FM09. Just to recap, in FM07 they were superb players who fell out with everyone, but had the ability to play well. It meant they travelled around a lot and never really tasted success, but their raw talent was such that every struggling club was willing to 'give them a go'. In FM09, all the players started with 150 CA and 200 PA, and the idiots actually got worse year on year, because a greater link was made between personality and training.

As a result, in FM09, they were nigh on useless. No-one got on with them, but their lack of progression meant that they would be doomed to a life of mediocrity. All valuable info to learn, but not very interesting.

This year, they will change again. They will still be stunningly talented, highly controversial, disloyal hackers and divers, who dislike the Bandits, each other and anyone who isn't a 'yes man'. But, and this is a big but, I'm considering making it so that despite all their flaws, they are actually hard working players, with the rationale that even with their idiotness, they are self-aware and selfish enough to know that they need to put in some yards.

So here are some options. Again, pick your favourite, or suggest something else.

a) Make them as FM07 and FM09, and see how the game handles them now.

b) Maximise their workrate and determination, to make them work at their own game, but otherwise make them as FM07 and FM09.

c) Make two factions - half of them a), half of them more hard-working, determined by equally controversial and disloyal. Make both factions like everyone else in their faction, and hate the other side.

d) Other....

Thoughts?

A high workrate and Determination but low teamwork just might do what you want. Or high Determination and low workrate and teamwork for the more "C Ronaldo" mentality. It sounds like you're looking more towards the Ronaldo type Big I-am player, Kip.

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Kip hasnt posted for 3.5 months. Planning for the challenge or given up? (Just thought I'd bump this in case he's forgotten about us :p)

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Don't worry, I'm still here, and still very much doing the experiment. As civilservant said, it'll be around or just after the turn of the year, patch dependant. Of course, if there are few issues with the game post first patch, I'll do it on that.

As for features, I honestly haven't looked at what is in FM12 yet. Got into reading here again before the SEGA hacking saga, so took a break to play my own game (FM09, no less!). Will start reading now...

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Hmm, so having had a look at the new features, I don't see too much that affects the experiment, apart from some bits that might improve things, such as a more accurate representation of countries and their ability to change in strength over time.

I'm actually more interested in the editor, and whether any of the changes give me more scope for playing around. One thing I am interested in - did anyone add extra leagues below the bottom default playable one? And is it effective?

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People added leagues down to level 10 for FM10, and it worked pretty well. There were real-world problems with the league that meant those mods didn't work so well for FM11, but it shouldn't have those problems this time round.

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are you thinking of starting the bandits at a much lower level this time around then? might be interesting, although I could see it getting a bit dull if they need twelve promotions just to get to the Premiership...

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That'll teach me for giving up and unbookmarking :D

If it counts, I think dual-nationality, but at very low levels (the Malta/Faroe/Andorra's of this world). If you fancy potential to pop here and there then there are enough EU nations these days to have a tiny EU nation and a tiny 'other' nation.

Given that you'll have 22 idiots and 22 starlets (if memory serves, which it might not) it might be worth putting four per nation otherwise you'll quickly end up with guys in those borderline-good nations like Bulgaria and Mexico.

One of the big gains this year will be the ability to add leagues, so if a player moves to Grampus Eight, it's only a click away from following them properly.

Hooway the Bandits :D

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Indeed the "add-remove" league option will be lovely to chase players wherever they are :)

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interesting read, but way too many variables. plus, the sheriffs were really only bound to get good players. all they had were poor players to start with, but could easily overcome that with correct spending, which they did.

a better experiment would be to have the Bandits have wonderkids with terrible management, but all of them have minimum fee release clause of 100M. The Sheriffs would have terrible players, but good management, and no fee release clauses.

Now, you may be thinking that the Sheriffs could easily just get all good players, which they will, but the Bandits have already quality players. it would be more of a good players + bad management vs. bad players + good management. the one you did was good players + good management vs. bad players + good management.

I'm thinking about doing one similar, or a save where you have two groups of wonderkids, but one group is given a consistency rating of 20 and important matches of 1, and the other would have the a consistency rating of 1 and an important match rating of 20. Ho I could explain in depth but what would you think?

consistency vs. inconsistency. would the important matches factor come into play, during promotions, playoffs, and regular league games, or would consistency have a larger role.

just some thoughts. I have a billion ideas.

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The reason that good management was used was the original Bandits thread they never really got anywhere because they had consistently terrible managers.

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haha i just started to read this for the first time last night and ended up staying up until 2am :\

Waiting patiently on the next edition :)

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I would suggest lowering the starting CA to around 100 and (if you start the Bandits/Sheriffs on level 10 or something) maybe put the starlets in other clubs higher up.

I would find it more interesting following their development not being 100% sure they would max out their potential...

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