AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

[Gregos]

Will Leeds ever stop being favourites for relegation? I do hope kip comes back soon as this experiment is awesome... I read the last one with great interest. I have a feeling both clubs might be staring relegation in the face this season...

[5ergio]

With FM2011 closing in the horizon, I, too, lost my belief in this continuing. Very big thanks to Kip for all his work up to now if he ever sees this

[kipfizh]

Hi folks,

Apologies for the very long absence, I had no idea whether I was going to have the time to continue the experiment or not so didn't want to say a) that it would, and keep you hanging, or b) that it couldn't, if there was some chance of it happening.

Sadly, it is difficult for me to have a spare minute at the moment (new job, new baby), let alone enough time to compile the sort of report that would continue the experiment in faith (there is only so much cutting down before it becomes worthless), and with no prospect of that changing this side of Christmas I'm afraid I'm going to have to call it a day on this particular experiment. By the time I could pick it up again, FM11 will be in full flow, and in keeping with my 'purchase every two years' policy, I will have moved on to that.

I would like to say a massive thanks to everyone who has followed this, and the FM07 one which went so much further - what started out as a big of fun turned into a huge affair because of your reactions to it. So thank you, genuinely. You are the reason I want to return and continue.

Once things settle down, I will be back in 2011 with a new experiment, in the new game, and using the new functionality (look for the Bandits and Sheriffs in the lower lower lower leagues). I will start it at a time when I can commit to putting in the required hours - stringing along with an update every six weeks isn't ideal for anyone.

Once again, thanks - and sorry this one couldn't go further. But to utter an immortal phrase, I'll be back...

[chopper99]

It was good while it lasted Kip. I look forward to the next one and cheers for the effort put in over the year as these have always been an essential read.

Good luck with the new baby mate, mine's 14 months old now so I know exactly how much time they take up. Enjoy.

[BenArsenal]

Cheers kip. You'll always be a legend in CSE regardless.

[markymarky]

we thought we were your baby. :'(

ah I kid, you have given us a lot of good times and I'm sure everyone will join me in wishing you the best in your exciting new world. Would you be interested in uploading the game file if anyone is interested in continuing it? Even just zooming through a couple of decades to give us a very wide-scope resolution would be nice.

[5ergio]

Cheers for the notice Kip. Congrats on both the job & the baby. Let's all have a good rest till FM2011 then. It will surely be a cracking one given the new features

[DB1]

If you believe he will return............... he will.

Congratulations all round Kip.

Good to have you back.

Viva La Bandits

[leonavich]

I saw Kips name and got excited! Thanks for the stories and memories. Bandits will live on in my mind.

Until 2011... Up the Bandits

[ivanro]

Thanks a lot for everything, Kip. We'll be waiting for your next update, whenever it is. Good luck and have fun with life.

[JRHaggs]

Kip is dead! Long live Kip!

[jcalton]

Can only echo the above Kip, I've loved following this experiment!

Roll on FM11

[Muzgrob]

Loved the experiment while it lasted, good luck in sorting all the stuff in your life and I look forward to reading your absolutely gripping reports in a new experiment sometime in the future.

[fabioke]

Thank you for your time and your effort.

This thread was better then a lot of books that I read.

Good luck with your job and your child.

[23 Carra Gold]

Well I have to say I really enjoyed reading that - all 21 pages! Every page was enjoyable, and I'll definitely be following any future projects. I've learned a lot from this thread; it was educational as it was enjoyable. I'd like to mimic fabioke by saying thank you very much for your time and effort.

[Vintage]

Cheers for the update KIP. Shame you've had to call it a day. But there is life outside of FM. (as i've just found too)

Good luck with your personal quests. And i look forward to the next update.

[Guest roberto922]

You actually read through all 21 pages? About 20 and a half pages is filled with people wondering if Kips dead.

[SnakeXe]

I read through the original thread using CTRL+F "kipfizh"

Shame this one couldn't get as far as the first, one of my favourite things on the entire forum. Thanks for the hours of entertainment kip, and good luck with real life!

[Chilliconcarnie]

Sad to see this end before its time.

Please be sure to post about the new thread in the main forum as I'm sure everyone who regularly posts/checks there will be waiting for it!

[Guest roberto922]

post in this thread too though, I never go in CSE anymore.

[Detritus]

Is this series dead now? It would be understandable if a shame but I really enjoyed reading these.

[chopper99]

Epic uppage.

I'm guessing as it hasn't been updated for over 8 months that it definitely is dead.

In fact this is Kip's last activity

Last PostAI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09 09-09-2010 09:17

[Kenco]

It would be good if somebody else could take it over. Woudn't be the same as Kip doing it, but would be nice to see it live on.

[5ergio]

Come on guys. Don't up a topic like this one. I had a heart attack seeing it on top thinkin we are back in business!! Jokes aside though, I don't quite thing anything similar to this will have the same effect so we should better accept the fact that Bandits are over after all those glories

[kipfizh]

Afternoon everyone.

As I talked about above, this particular incarnation of the experiment is dead - life simply got too busy for me to continue, and it would be nigh-on worthless to pick up again, since it is based on FM2009.

However, the series is 100% categorically NOT dead - I actually haven't purchased FM since FM2009 but will be getting FM2012, and the experiment will return once the game has stabilised. That doesn't mean waiting until after Christmas, it means waiting for the first/second patches to come out that address the things missed in development. So while I predicted that the next iteration would be FM2011 (which was wrong), it will return in 2011. Just.

So what can you expect? Well, without knowing what is in FM2012 yet, it is hard to say, but the Bandits and Sheriffs will return, each with their pre-determined squad and staff members, entered at the lowest rung of the football ladder that I can put them in, which might even be a custom league. I'll be utilising as many of the new features from the three FM games since FM2009 as possible, before constructing those mammoth reports I always keep you waiting for I even have a plan of when I can do it.

Stay tuned.

[kipfizh]

Oh, and one person bumps the thread after months and three old school fans are there within half an hour? You guys are awesome.

Looking forward to coming back.

[Detritus]

I'd just like to put on record that I made all this possible... Please form an orderly queue for the secret ballot to vote me the most awesome bumper of old threads... *takes a bow whilst holding flowers*

I'll add Bandits 2011 (Xmas) to Star Wars:TOR in my list of things I'll be impatiently waiting for.

[Kenco]

Kip lives!!!

And has just got us all really excited. I'd like to retract my earlier notion for someone else to take over...

[5ergio]

Ohh sir you still are a big tease!! Roll on FM2012 then. We should bump Miles to hurry the production

[GreyedOutMan]

OOoooooo I'm so excited now. Kip - could you start to reveal your plans during the summer to keep us entertained?!

[Vintage]

I unbookmarked this thread. But thank the lord for the Bandits fan page on facebook. Good to hear from you Kip & i look forward to Fm12 & your first update (and the months pining & waiting for the next )

[kipfizh]

Maybe every time SI release a feature, I should do the same

In all seriousness, I do want to open a quick poll for one of the features, which is around the nationalities of the players. In the FM07 project, all 22 starlets and both idiots were English only. In the FM09 project, the 22 starlets and four idiots had dual nationalities - English and one other, where each of their other nationalities were different from each other. I want to change it up a bit this time, and I've got a selection of options. Please choose from the following, and if you can back up your choice with a compelling reason why it should be chosen, your vote will count double.

a) Make all starlets and idiots English only (as FM07)

b) Make all starlets English only and all idiots another nationality only

c) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality - English and one other, where that other nationality is different each time (as FM09)

d) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality - English and one other, where the 'other' is picked from a pool of 4-5 leading nations.

e) Make all starlets and idiots an entirely random nationality.

f) Make all starlets and idiots an entirely random nationality, but make sure no nation is picked twice.

g) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality, where both nationalities are picked at random.

h) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality, where both nationalities are picked at random, but no nation is ever picked twice.

i) Split the starlets and idiots in half, between two nationalities, so that both country could play 11 starlets if they wanted.

j) Other - please specify.

I'll start the voting (my vote doesn't count double!) with e - I like the idea that a small nation can get lucky by getting three starlets, but also that they wouldn't be scuppered by dual nationality, and all their players choosing to play for the bigger nation. I imagine a situation where Luxembourg get two strikers and a central midfielder and suddenly become a force, and I'd be interested to see what effect that has on co-efficients, and maybe even that nation's league.

[letissierandhenryaregreat]

h) Make all starlets and idiots dual nationality, where both nationalities are picked at random, but no nation is ever picked twice.

Because it would be good to slightly alter the experiment rather than try the same experiment again. But I think a good idea would be to have Bandits affiliates across the world to see if players are more likely to choose to play for the country they are residing in rather than another one.

But anyway, it's good to see you back, kipfizh. Unfortunately, I wasn't on the forums when you ran both of the Bandits sign-ups; but I spent a couple of hours scrolling through them when I first joined the forums.

So...once again, it's good to see you back.

[5ergio]

I'd like to say "A" just to see Englang get knocked out by penalties one more even with the starlets Jokes aside though I'd go with E & J coupled. Totally randomize the nationalities but make sure they are the smaller ones in different parts of the world. Maybe make a pool of 40-50 countries and randomize in between them so some may get lucky to have 2-3 starlets as well.

[0gris]

H) Would definitely be the most interesting as you would come up with COMPLETELY random results.

[Sheriff 1993]

H) as said in previous post for increased randomness

Didn't follow the previous series, but i'm now up to speed after reading though the past two editions

Good to know that this will be back in the future

[glennuk]

Spent all day reading this From start to finish.

GOOD DAY

Even greater by the fact its starting again. I believe its because i was reading

[Cuddlefish]

I vote for H.

I love randomness, it's just so.. random!

[GreyedOutMan]

I reckon you should make each starlet random nationality, but only within the nations with very low co-efficients. As you mentioned, Kip, it would be interesting to see how smaller nations progressed, but if done at random, it will unfairly advantage one of the bigger nations - its unlikely any nation would be picked twice, and the highest ranked team with a starlet would have a huge advantage. If the starlets were split randomly between, lets say, the 50 or so starlets with the lowest status, it would make World Cups more interesting.

I dont know what you think of this (and I realise it could make your reports too long) but I'd be in favour of having a larger number of starlets - provide each of the teams with a larger squad so that more players are split between the nations.

I make it 220 nations on FM in total. If you set the bar at 100 ranking points, you would be splitting the players between approximately 35-40 nations (this is going on my game from 2021, but I doubt the numbers would be hugely different). Set it at 50, and you have around 20 nations. Would be great to see how much of a lift a couple of starlets would give a nation like Somalia, Aruba or Tonga. My recommendation would be that you should set it at the level which means that each nation would have, on average, two starlets. In practise, some will have none and others might have 4-5. I like this element of randomness, and it would be interesting to see how the distribution of high CA players varies amongst the nations who benefit. Does having two starlets from a country where there are very few players already in the database lead to having a team like Equatorial Guinea rapidly rising through the rankings? OOooooo I'm going to try this, it's exciting!

[letissierandhenryaregreat]

I reckon you should make each starlet random nationality, but only within the nations with very low co-efficients. As you mentioned, Kip, it would be interesting to see how smaller nations progressed, but if done at random, it will unfairly advantage one of the bigger nations - its unlikely any nation would be picked twice, and the highest ranked team with a starlet would have a huge advantage. If the starlets were split randomly between, lets say, the 50 or so starlets with the lowest status, it would make World Cups more interesting.

I dont know what you think of this (and I realise it could make your reports too long) but I'd be in favour of having a larger number of starlets - provide each of the teams with a larger squad so that more players are split between the nations.

I make it 220 nations on FM in total. If you set the bar at 100 ranking points, you would be splitting the players between approximately 35-40 nations (this is going on my game from 2021, but I doubt the numbers would be hugely different). Set it at 50, and you have around 20 nations. Would be great to see how much of a lift a couple of starlets would give a nation like Somalia, Aruba or Tonga. My recommendation would be that you should set it at the level which means that each nation would have, on average, two starlets. In practise, some will have none and others might have 4-5. I like this element of randomness, and it would be interesting to see how the distribution of high CA players varies amongst the nations who benefit. Does having two starlets from a country where there are very few players already in the database lead to having a team like Equatorial Guinea rapidly rising through the rankings? OOooooo I'm going to try this, it's exciting!

I think that is a bit too much starlets. If too many teams have starlets then it will be hard for an opposing starlet to make a difference. It will be an equal playing field again. Give around 10-15 minnow nations starlets and we might receive better results.

[GreyedOutMan]

Id like to see whether having one starlet makes a huge difference though. Will we end up with World Cups between only teams who were originally given starlets?!

[letissierandhenryaregreat]

Id like to see whether having one starlet makes a huge difference though. Will we end up with World Cups between only teams who were originally given starlets?!

What about having a starlet manager for each nation with a starlet player?

[BuffaloPhil]

You need to consider the effect that nationalities have on work permits etc - if a starlet is (for example) Brazilian only, he won't break into the national team whilst he's still with the Bandits (at least for a few years) which will impact on his ability to gain a work permit. That could of course be another tweak to the game - these players would have to stay with the Bandits or move to a country which doesn't require work permits, as they wouldn't get a permit for a move to an English club.

My suggestion would be to split them between the eleven lowest ranked EU nations so they get two each, would be interesting to see how much that would allow these nations to challenge the established powers in Europe.

[letissierandhenryaregreat]

You need to consider the effect that nationalities have on work permits etc - if a starlet is (for example) Brazilian only, he won't break into the national team whilst he's still with the Bandits (at least for a few years) which will impact on his ability to gain a work permit. That could of course be another tweak to the game - these players would have to stay with the Bandits or move to a country which doesn't require work permits, as they wouldn't get a permit for a move to an English club.

My suggestion would be to split them between the eleven lowest ranked EU nations so they get two each, would be interesting to see how much that would allow these nations to challenge the established powers in Europe.

If that happens then results will stay fairly similar. The Starlets should be spread out across continents so they don't hinder each other's nation's progress. But the point about work permits is a good shout.

[FlownCanary]

Awesome to see you back Kip! I can't wait to see the Bandits return!

My vote is for i) Split the starlets and idiots in half, between two nationalities, so that both country could play 11 starlets if they wanted..

I like this, we might see an idiots vs starlets world cup final! It would be great for those who are a fan of one or the other.

[PRDH]

Ideally I like the idea of random countries, but the work permit is an issue. Unless you set them all to have English as a second nationality (since they've come through the youth academy of the clubs) but make sure they are declared for their main nation. Thereby having the best of both worlds! Voila!

The randomness would be fun, and the chance for Armenia, or similar, to end up with a couple of starlet strikers would be fun to see.

[Braumiller]

Wow, a revival!!

I would like to see;

j) All starlets and idiots are dual nationality. Main nationality is different for each and made up from the lowest 50-ish smallest nations in the game. Second nationality is then English for all. This would (hopefully) add an extra dimension to see if they follow their heritage and play for their small nation, or end up playing for England. If even half a dozen play for their home nation on the world stage it would be great to see if they could elevate their nation into the World Cup or other international tournaments.

[glennuk]

Just wondering if there is any chance to know (If you know) or see a screenshot of how the premier league seasons went in the FM09 bandits.

SO frustrating reading it all and not knowing how they played in the premier league.

EIther way loved this experiment

[BigShane]

Can't remember if I've previously posted, but this is by far my favorite thread on these forums and I've had it bookmarked for ages so I'm delighted to see kip's back!

With regards to the nationalities I'd love to divide the starlets up into groups and put them each into small nations to see how much they impact them. Maybe groups of 2-3 divided between 10 countries?

In order to get around the EU thing, give them English as a second nationality, but have them already declared for the small nation. Or even give them 1 cap each.

Summary: Option (j) and welcome back!

[kipfizh]

Hmm, at the moment I'm leaning towards a combination of your ideas. The consensus seems to be:

a) Randomness is good.

b) Dual nationality is more popular than single.

c) Low ranked nations should get them.

d) Work permit could be an issue.

So at the moment, the winning combination would be to pick dual nationality for each player, where one nationality is a low-ranking EU nation and the other is a low-ranking nation from somewhere else in the world.

The alternative is to randomly pick one low-ranking nation from anywhere in the world (including EU), declare them for that nation, but give them English as another nationality. But most of you seem to be preferring the dual nationality.