kipfizh

AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

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We're FM players, why would we bother with a trivial thing like 'outside'? Except to get the new games perhaps.

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I went outside once...

...please don't make me do it again.

Make the nasty man go away mummy!

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yeah, you 'williamshankley'

Look, your a relative new member of this forum. I'm very patient and understand that people have other lifes as well as posting experiment findings on a forum. I'd suggest you cut Kip some slack. As for posting angry smilies because he hasn't posted, that's pathetic.

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Look, your a relative new member of this forum. I'm very patient and understand that people have other lifes as well as posting experiment findings on a forum. I'd suggest you cut Kip some slack. As for posting angry smilies because he hasn't posted, that's pathetic.

I think we all know who was in the wrong there. And it certainly wasn't williamshankley...

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I never asked for an update and there were also some happy smilies too....

williamshankley's post was a poor attempt at reverse phycology. He tries to make himself look right whilst at the same time hoping to speed up the process of an update. You have been sussed out.

As for you unknown hacker, if that is your real name, well bumped my friend, well bumped indeed ;)

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Agreed. A thread that is this good does not need any bumping. The second Kip posts an update we all pile back in here to read it, even if there has been an abyss of time between updates. But as has been said before, everyone has their own lives to lead and I'm sure Kip will post an update when there is one and when he has the time to write it.

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Sorry folks, I really hoped to have the update completed before I go on holiday but it isn't going to happen, so instead I'll post the first half of the season report (coming right up). I'm back next Friday and shortly after that the full report will be out.

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Club reports – August-December

Bandits

The media predicted the Bandits to finish second behind Ipswich, a spot that would gain them automatic promotion, but after a spectacular summer of signings, the fans wanted more – they were expecting the league title.

And they started well, with a 3-0 win at Bury, Cameron Jerome and Craig Gardner scoring on debut, and Maynard adding the third. League Two Cheltenham were no match for them in the Carling Cup, leaving with their tails between their legs after a 4-0 defeat, and the Bandits made it ten unanswered goals in three games with a 3-0 win over Rotherham in their second league game.

The stunning start might have caused a little complacency, and they went down 1-0 to Aldershot the following week, but that was probably a timely reminder that they need to work hard, ahead of a Carling Cup tie with Burnley, the Championship side that knocked them out of the same competition three years earlier.

And it was a great display, the Bandits running out 2-1 winners to suggest that competing in the Championship is within their reach. Now they had to make sure they got there, and they got back to winning ways in the league with a 3-0 win over Shrewsbury. By the time the transfer window shut at the end of August, the fans were delighted with the signings, and the club had won five out of six games. Things looked up.

September began with a 2-1 win over Yeovil in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy, before their league form slipped a little, a 1-0 defeat at Forest being followed by consecutive draws with Morecambe and Rochdale. After another 0-0 draw with Bradford in the third round of the Carling Cup, they lost on penalties as their early season form started to seem a distant memory.

The fans continued to hope that the team's struggles were just a case of players not yet gelling, and as September turned into October that belief seemed to be vindicated, as the Bandits went on a run of seven wins in eight, their only dropped points a 1-1 draw at Doncaster. The run began with 2-0 and 4-0 wins over Tranmere and Swindon respectively, before Bristol Rovers exited the Johnstone's Paint Trophy with a 3-1 defeat. Wins over Carlisle, Millwall and Huddersfield briefly put the Bandits top, before that draw with Doncaster dropped them back to second.

The two dropped points spurred them on, however, and they finished October with a 6-0 destruction of Southend. They remained second, but having scored more goals than anyone else in the league, conceding just five in the process, they remained favourites for the title. It helped that Cameron Jerome had already scored nine goals in fourteen games, a ratio David Healy could only dream of.

League One – End of October

November began as October had ended, with an impressive victory, 2-0 at Brighton, before a disappointing 2-0 home defeat to Gillingham put paid to their hopes in the Johnstone's Paint Trophy. One cup still remainined – the FA Cup – and they started that campaign in style, winning 3-0 at AFC Wimbledon.

Draws with Crewe and Stockport followed, and as November slipped away the fans began to wonder if they could be consistent enough to take the title – too many soft points were being dropped, and Gillingham were looking good.

But for the rest of the year, the fortunes of both clubs switched. Gillingham faded badly and would end December in fourth, while the Bandits won every game from that draw with Stockport. Confidence came flooding back with a 6-2 destruction of Scunthorpe, before a 3-1 win away to Shrewsbury took them into the third round of the FA Cup. A 1-0 win over MK Dons was followed by a trio of games against promotion rivals, success ensured by a 4-0 win over Ipswich, a 3-0 triumph over Bournemouth, and a 1-0 win at Gillingham. Further victories over Wycombe and Burnley only strengthened their position at the top.

As the year ended, the Bandits were in a dominant position. Top of the league by ten points, they had only conceded ten goals in 24 games, scoring 57 and demonstrating that they are clearly the best side in the league. They are also still in the FA Cup, where they will face Championship Sheff Utd.

Promotion was surely assured.

League One – End of December

Sheriffs

The fans were unsure whether the club had made enough signings in the summer to compete in the Championship, and they were certainly to be tested on the opening day, a trip to Wigan kicking things off. But in truth, they battered their hosts, Philliskirk and Plummer scoring in a comfortable 2-0 win.

Days later, a late Plummer goal was enough to see off MK Dons in the Carling Cup, before other new signings got in on the act against Bradford, Dyer and Henderson scoring in a 3-0 win.

It was all going a bit too well, and Portsmouth changed all that, the Championship favourites running out 2-1 winners despite another Plummer goal. Days later the new star scored in the first minute of the Carling Cup tie against Norwich, but the Canaries came back to win 2-1 and end that particular cup dream.

They needed to get back on track, and after pummelling Sheff Utd in their next league game, they finally got a 1-0 win through McAllister's goal. As the transfer window shut at the end of August, they were actually top, with nine points from four games, but it was already clear that this step up was going to be a big one.

September began with two draws, 1-1 at Norwich and 2-2 at home to Plymouth. But days later, they suffered a heavy 3-0 defeat at the hands of Watford as the realisation struck that the Championship was going to prove tricky. But they bounced back with a 3-1 win over Swansea, a draw at Bristol City, and a 6-0 demolition of Hull in which Plummer plundered a superb hattrick.

The result was all the more impressive given that Hull were in the Premiership last season, but ironically, the Bandits helped the Sheriffs to that huge win by signing three Hull players in the summer.

The mood was buoyant, but Leicester brought them crashing back to earth, rushing to a 3-0 lead inside 18 minutes of their next game. A decent fightback saw the match end 3-2, but the damage had been done. A good win over Sheff Wed put them back on track, before a 1-0 defeat at Crystal Palace at the end of September dropped them back to sixth.

At the end of September, they sat on the edge of the playoffs, but as the top scorers in the league, largely thanks to Plummer's nine goals in fifteen games. But they were conceding freely against far superior attack forces, and it would take a great effort to stay in the promotion hunt.

Championship – End of October

November was a mixed bag, as they alternated between victory and defeat – a 1-0 win over Cardiff was followed by a 1-0 defeat at Blackpool, and then a 1-0 win over Burnley preceded a 3-1 defeat at Wolves. An impressive 2-1 win against Southampton kept them in the playoffs, but they were having to fight very hard for it.

They were gifted a win in their next game, a 3-1 win over QPR, as opposing keeper Lee Camp scored two own goals in a calamitous display. And they came back from 2-0 and 3-2 in the next game against Derby to secure a valuable 3-3 draw with a late McAllister goal.

Their form continued to impress, a 2-0 win over Birmingham securing their place in the playoffs, but three defeats in the last four games of the year pushed them back down again.

At the end of December, the Sheriffs sat sixth, in the playoffs only by goal difference, in a very tight league. A couple of new faces would be hugely welcomed by the fans as they chase an unlikely fifth consecutive promotion into the big time.

Championship – End of December

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woo, excellent as always Kip, I'm liking the table snapshots - gives something a bit more concrete to focus the mind. Looks like we need have no concerns about The Bandits, but this year's thrills are with the Sheriffs. I think I predicted that their successive promotions would blow up in their face at Championship level, but I'm hoping to be proven spectacularly wrong.

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Would be great if the Sheriffs got to the Premier League.

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That should be the performance from the beginning but anyway. Top of the league and clearly dominating when focused. Championship, here we come!

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Superb.

Bandits looking a shoe-in for the title and even the Sheriffs have given themselves a chance. With the transfer window opening, they could easily sign the two or three players they need to turn sixth place into something much better. I find it amazing that they've done so well against so many strong sides, but fair play to them.

Have a good holiday Kip and looking forward to the remainder of the report...

KUTGW

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Wohoo! Go Bandits! It's nice to see Bandits have done as well as everyone expected. And also well done Sheriffs. I'm really surprised seeing them doing so well in Championship. It would be great if they got promoted but don't think that will happen.

I guess they will both be in Championship next season and that is going to be absolute thriller both challenging for promotion to EPL.

Have a good holiday Kip and thanks for an excellent update :-)

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*Sigh* It's tough when the bandits (or the sheriffs if you swing that way) face your club, even more so when they're in direct rivalry and get hammered, don't know whether to be delighted or disappointed. Still now we're miles off the top a nice revenge victory wouldn't do too much damage. Sheriffs doing much better then expected, could well make playoffs, and who knows what may happen then. Note to Bandits management, don't sign too many players off a single club in the sheriff's league next time.

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Awesome update Kip, I too hope you enjoy your holiday. As a Norwich and a Bandits fan, I laughed quite hard when Norwich dumped them from the Carling Cup. I eagerly await the next update, where the Bandits will surely achieve promotion

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Good to see the Bandits look good for promotion. Also nice to see Leicester City on top of the Championship. :cool:

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Prediction for the season from me:

Bandits to win the league by 15 points or more

Sheriffs to lose in the playoff final.

And is Maynard the Bandits player bought from Bristol City?

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Hey there Kip.

I'm just one of hundreds of silent followers of this thread and wanted to say hi. Was reading your experiment back in FM2007, and still reading it now. KUTGW. Never give up. :)

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Im amazed at the Sheriffs rise through the leagues. I really hope they dont gain promotion to the Premiership this year. My ideal scenario would be a Bandits V Sheriffs Playoff final for Premiership status next year. Although i doubt i'll get my wish, i can always dream. Bandits team this year will do well in Championship next season and if the manager brings in a couple more stars, they could end up dominating next year as well.

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I'm quite confused with the experiment - as good a read as it is, I am not clear on what the experiment is trying to achieve. It would be useful if you referred to your hypothesis and variables more regularly.

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It's not really trying to achieve anything imo, it's more for enjoyment

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The one for FM07 was more of an experiment, this one is probably more of a hobbie than a experiment.

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I'm quite confused with the experiment - as good a read as it is, I am not clear on what the experiment is trying to achieve. It would be useful if you referred to your hypothesis and variables more regularly.

His aim is to basically go deep into the game engine to see what happens when the engine is exposed to extremes.

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His aim is to basically go deep into the game engine to see what happens when the engine is exposed to extremes.

I realise that, but I would prefer a comment here and there about how what has happened corresponds to what we know, and how it matches up with the original hypothesis etc.

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The 07 experiment was really important, showing us for instance how important reputation is in the game. This experiment hasn't really gone far enough yet to draw any real conclusions.

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I realise that, but I would prefer a comment here and there about how what has happened corresponds to what we know, and how it matches up with the original hypothesis etc.

Well it hasn't really been so exposed yet, when the Bandits have retired, that will be when we will get the best out of this.

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First when a little bit quicker becasue there wasn't so much to it in the beginning, extra reports etc. got added as we went along.

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Just caught up with this over the last couple of days - really interesting, and hats off for the amount of effort put in to it.

A couple of things that are interesting with the star players and idiots:

* The CA development of goalkeepers is obviously a bit slower compared to outfield players

* The reputation of the league you're playing in seems to make a huge amount of difference to CA development, rather than necessarily the reputation of the club you play for

* Center-backs didn't quite seem to be getting as high an av.rating as other positions - either because it's generally harder to get good ratings in that position (especially when you're playing for a team who wins most games) or maybe because being either-footed isn't quite as useful as it is for other positions

* Being an either-footed striker with a lot of pace is quite clearly deadly, even if your finishing is below 15.

* It seems that having an awful personality really blocks CA growth, even when a player is getting fairly regular football at a decent level (and being really ambitious if obviously not enough on its own!). I wonder if any of those idiots will ever get their CA moving forward?

I'm really surprised that Rangers have managed to hang on to their two star players - is Rangers' rep quite high, or are the world reps of the two players pretty low? Are there major clubs interested in those two players?

And it's weird that the two coaches disappeared in to obscurity so soon.

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Different positions have different peaks, iirc GKs don't peak until their early to mid 30s for midfielders and striker is is mid to late 20s. Defenders somewhere in between.

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Hi Everyone.

I have been away from the forum for a while, had a lot of personal issues and other commitments which kept me away from the forum.

First of all i owe Kipfizh an apology as i disappeared without really completing Bandits club crest and kits. :( How did you manage to get them on? I don’t think i uploaded it before i left, also who designed the badge for the sheriffs?

Back on topic, I Just finished reading the whole 16 pages, took me 2 days to go through it and was worth every minute. It’s fantastic to see the experiment back on and the level of detail on each update which we have come to expect from Kipfizh :thup:

Regards

Abs

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Took me a few days to read this and wow what an experiment!

The reports are amazing and i couldnt stop reading them!

I can think of nothing to improve on the reports but I see 1 flaw in the experiment.

Most of your starlets are capped by England, So in my opinion this gives far too much of an advantage to England, and anything related to England nationally and domesticly.

Now obviously you set it out at the beginning for the Bandits to have all the starlets, but you knew for a fact that after 1 season they would all of been transferred, so no real advantage was given to the club.

But chances are England will win the world cup and the European cup when the starlets are in their mid 20's and will give the nation a very high reputation boost, and in all likelihood increase the future generated chars CA and PA for England.

If the game was left to its own devises and if the starlets were never made, the chances of a world cup and European cup win would of been allot lower.

So to summarize what ive just said.

Starlets have given England too much of an advantage and will affect the future generated chars in game, giving english clubs an even greater advantage

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Took me a few days to read this and wow what an experiment!

The reports are amazing and i couldnt stop reading them!

I can think of nothing to improve on the reports but I see 1 flaw in the experiment.

Most of your starlets are capped by England, So in my opinion this gives far too much of an advantage to England, and anything related to England nationally and domesticly.

Now obviously you set it out at the beginning for the Bandits to have all the starlets, but you knew for a fact that after 1 season they would all of been transferred, so no real advantage was given to the club.

But chances are England will win the world cup and the European cup when the starlets are in their mid 20's and will give the nation a very high reputation boost, and in all likelihood increase the future generated chars CA and PA for England.

If the game was left to its own devises and if the starlets were never made, the chances of a world cup and European cup win would of been allot lower.

So to summarize what ive just said.

Starlets have given England too much of an advantage and will affect the future generated chars in game, giving english clubs an even greater advantage

Yeah but Kip gave the Starlets in this experiment a second nationality, Some have took up this nationality, Ie one starlet plays for Brazil, Another for Italy.

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Yeah but Kip gave the Starlets in this experiment a second nationality, Some have took up this nationality, Ie one starlet plays for Brazil, Another for Italy.

Yes and it was obvious that most would stick with England playing in England, probably born in England also.

Perhaps with Kip adding the second nations to them he was aware of the possible imbalance that would happen and thought it might suffice.

But out of the 22 of the starlets we have

4 defenders

7 midfielder

3 attackers

14 in total

All playing for England.

Thats a whole team with 200 PA

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Yes and it was obvious that most would stick with England playing in England, probably born in England also.

Perhaps with Kip adding the second nations to them he was aware of the possible imbalance that would happen and thought it might suffice.

But out of the 22 of the starlets we have

4 defenders

7 midfielder

3 attackers

14 in total

All playing for England.

Thats a whole team with 200 PA

That is exactly what i as thinking, When these stars hit their 20s the Enland National Team will be just too powerful for the rest of the world.

I think it would of been more fair from an international point of view of the experiment if the stars were evenly distributed among the countries.

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It seems that you've missed the point.

The entire purpose of this experiment was to add some extreme factors to the game and see how the AI reacted. If Kip had simply done everything in his power, as you seem to be suggesting, to avoid changing the status quo, then what would be the point of the experiment? What you are suggesting is to simply run the game on holiday mode with no alterations, which is something that any one of us can do, quite simply, for ourselves.

Personally, I think it is better to create a national side that is insanely gifted, so that, as you pointed out, the successes of the current crop of starlets might influence the reputation for the future and thereby could produce a higher standard of regens for England. It will be interesting to see just how much of an impact it can have and whether it creates a ripple of lesser successes long term or whether the game has some way of evening things out.

Spreading the talent thinly throughout the International squads would add nothing to the experiment. It would be no better than if the FA decided to award all Premiership clubs with 10 bonus points at the start of the season. No one would benefit, and it would have absolutely no influence on the outcome at the end of the season.

You have to remember that, although Kip's posts are a great read and highly entertaining, he is essentially just trying to see what the game does under extreme circumstances. The more it is removed from real life, the better the experiment and the more we can all learn about the AI within the game.

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Kip gave all of the starlets dual-nationality, England and one other country.

I actually pointed a while back that those whose second nationality for a so-called "bigger" nation (Brazil, France, Spain, Argentina) chose their foreign countries, while the rest belong to "smaller" countries (Zambia and quite a lot else) chose England.

In the original experiment almost all of the Bandits become England stars anyway.

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That’s fair enough, but I think from an international point of view, the game will end up as England domination for number of years.

I think it would of been slightly better to have some players from smaller nations already declared for that nation, and have England as their second nationality, this was we could of seen some surprise results on the international scene.

But this version of the experiment should be very interesting to see how everything unfolds in years to come.

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it would probably be a worthwhile experiment to create a team with all of the resources and so on of the Bandits but with no starlets, and see how things are different in the long run, but I do think that's another experiment entirely. This experiment is so good because, well, primarily because kip does a great job of pulling a compelling narrative out of it all, but on a technical level also because there are a lot of quite distinct variables at play, and at the end we'll have an excellent insight into the roles that they play, separately and in relation to each other.

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