kipfizh

AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

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Blimey, these reports are getting long. Honestly, how do you folks feel about the season report sections? They are extremely long, if you read it all, then great, but if not, do say, because sometimes when I see a big block of text my eyes go fuzzy. I'd be interested to know if it is actually read.

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Excellent update as usual Kip. The problem is with the long updates that everybody will have something in particular that is interesting them. I, for example, am enjoying watching the former Bandits and their careers whereas others will be closely observing the changes in the league challengers etc ... If you wanted to shorten it, you'd struggle to decide what to cut.

BTW, up the Sheriffs! We are number 1!

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yes! Come on! The Sheriffs going up ahead of the bandits! I KNEW WE'D BATTER THEM :D :D

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p.s: (had to get that out first, having declared for the sheriffs from day one) i read every word, but am all for your ease. If there's something you want to cut, please do, but the season story write ups are excellent.

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Sheriffs pass the Bandits :D

And Nordveit :D

oh, and kip, I do read everything, although sometimes I skim promotions/relegations.

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Nice one Kip, I thought I would be satisfied with an update, but you just made me want to the update. Anyway, keep up the good work, obviously from the following in the thread it is appreciated.

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Excellent update kip. I agree with what Greasy chip butty is saying, different people will like different sections.

My personal opinion is that competitions around the world could be shortened to a two or three sentence summary of interesting points of note, just like you did anyway in this report talking about Rangers and Lazio. I also think some sections of world view could be cut/trimmed. Personally, World club reps and co efficient section could be chopped without taking too much away from the enjoyment of the report. Also maybe the ones to watch and world beaters sections could be updated once every two or three seasons.

At the end of the day though, you are the one that has to type all this up, so cut what you want, we will still read this thread religiously no matter what sections you drop.

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Blimey, these reports are getting long. Honestly, how do you folks feel about the season report sections? They are extremely long, if you read it all, then great, but if not, do say, because sometimes when I see a big block of text my eyes go fuzzy. I'd be interested to know if it is actually read.

Read it all :)

Nordtveit at Sheriffs...means this Norwegian will have to support them from now on. Glory hunting ftw (though I'm in doubt as to how they'll do in the Championship - picking them for a good cup run, some glory signings - could imagine Stewart Downing or John O'Shea joining for cash).

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Yet another excellent update Kip. :thup:

With the Sherrifs now overtaking the Bandits it really makes you now want to know what happens next season? Can the Sherrifs get an amazing and near impossible 5th straight promotion to the Premiership and can the Bandits escape Division 1?

With the Sherrifs now a league ahead this might mean they will be able to attract a higher quality player to their team and thus leave the Bandits behind for a few seasons until they (possibly) catch up.

As for shortening and taking out which reports I would do the following -

World View – National Coefficients (remove)

World View - Distribution of 180+ CA players (add it every few seasons)

Summary (shorten)

Competitions – Around the world (remove or shorten)

Competitions - England (shorten)

The way the club reports was done this season with merging the 2 sides in the same report was excellent (this mainly works as they are in the same league).

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I blame the Bandits manager for not buying more players in January :mad: No need to worry though, I just can't see the Sheriffs getting promoted again.

I'm surprised that Man Utd haven't bought any of the starlets. It's going to have a bad impact on them very soon.

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Great read Kip took quite a long time to get through but didn't get bored at any point. Probably as short as you could make it which stops it from being boring.

Very annoyed at the sheriffs getting promoted to the Championship before the Bandits but i think they have been very unlucky in the playoffs.

Very interested to see who goes to Sheriffs now they are in the Championship, also would be good to see Bandits pull off some good signings for the extra push next season.

I think the Sheriffs won't do that well in the Championship unless they get a good investment as they didn't even have one of the top 10 players in League One.

Keep it coming kip can't wait until the next update and appriciate the amount of time and effort you have put in so far and will in the future.

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Very annoyed at the sheriffs getting promoted to the Championship before the Bandits but i think they have been very unlucky in the playoffs.

Very interested to see who goes to Sheriffs now they are in the Championship, also would be good to see Bandits pull off some good signings for the extra push next season.

I think the Sheriffs won't do that well in the Championship unless they get a good investment as they didn't even have one of the top 10 players in League One.

Time to break out the old cilque about great players not making a great team :p

Sour bandits fans!

'Mon the sheriffs!

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It happened, they leapfrog us. They do seem to have a knack for coming from behind. When I saw they had Nordtveit I had a bad feeling and it was going so well. Anyway that aside, it had been a very productive day and great to be rewarded with an update. Also looks like the starlets have mostly entered their peak, what a WC in store, and I believe I saw a world player of the year as well, anyone predict right.

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Blimey, these reports are getting long. Honestly, how do you folks feel about the season report sections? They are extremely long, if you read it all, then great, but if not, do say, because sometimes when I see a big block of text my eyes go fuzzy. I'd be interested to know if it is actually read.

Like plenty of others I'm sure, I do read through each update but haven't contributed before. Would admit that there's large sections I don't look at (reputations of premierships teams, world clubs off the top of my head).

You could maybe drop bits and pieces from the next report at your own discretion and see if anyone cares enough to moan...

Anyway, in terms of negotiating large blocks of text, as a polite suggestion I'd say that some parts of it could be more user friendly. Ever tried using the 'code' tags on here?

So for example, this:

Player reports - Idiots

Idiot Goalkeeper (England)

2008-09, Sheriffs, CA 150: Apps 51, Conc 46, Cln 22, MoM 5, YC 5, RC 0, Avg 6.99

Transfers to Falkirk for £80k

2009-10, Falkirk, CA 150: Apps 25, Conc 26, Cln 11, MoM 1, YC 0, RC 0, Avg 6.84

Transfers to West Brom for £2.7m

2009-10, West Brom, CA 150: Apps 16, Conc 15, Cln 6, MoM 0, YC 0, RC 0, Avg 6.94

2010-11, West Brom, CA 150: Apps 35, Conc 47, Cln 7, MoM 1, YC 0, RC 0, Avg 6.95

2011-12, West Brom, CA 150: Apps 40, Conc 45, Cln 13, MoM 2, YC 0, RC 0, Avg 6.93

2012-13, West Brom, CA 150: Apps 45, Conc 78, Cln 10, MoM 1, YC 0, RC 0, Avg 6.85

Notes: Concedes a lot more goals than normal this season, but West Brom survive in 16th largely due to their being four very poor teams in the division. Moves on to eight caps, but his CA is preventing him from becoming a bigger star. That, and the fact that he keeps complaining of personal problems, and then demanding a wage hike.

Honours

None

Could become:

Player reports - Idiots

Idiot Goalkeeper (England)

 
[font=Courier New]Season   Club      CA   Apps Conc Cln  MoM  YC  RC  Avg   Transfer   Fee[/font]
[font=Courier New]2008-09  Sheriffs  150  51   46   22   5    5   0   6.99  Falkirk    £80k[/font]
[font=Courier New]2009-10  Falkirk   150  25   26   11   1    0   0   6.84  West Brom  £2.7m[/font]
[font=Courier New]2009-10  West Brom 150  16   15   6    0    0   0   6.94[/font]
[font=Courier New]2010-11  West Brom 150  35   47   7    1    0   0   6.95[/font]
[font=Courier New]2011-12  West Brom 150  40   45   13   2    0   0   6.93[/font]
[font=Courier New]2012-13  West Brom 150  45   78   10   1    0   0   6.85[/font]

Notes: Concedes a lot more goals than normal this season, but West Brom survive in 16th largely due to their being four very poor teams in the division. Moves on to eight caps, but his CA is preventing him from becoming a bigger star. That, and the fact that he keeps complaining of personal problems, and then demanding a wage hike.

Honours

None

Hopefully that worked...I think it should look a bit easier on the eyes with more regular columns. It just might save a little on typing it out as well.

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Kip - i do read it all. KEEP THE NATIONAL CO-EFFICIENTS. Its really interesting. I didnt realise until recently that it could change and it would be interesting to see if we ever see some obscure country getting like 4 UCL places....

Otherwise - i'm also all for your ease. And the shorter the time between the updates the better. At this rate we're still only looking at about 20 FM years per real life year, and that would be a shame. I think the best thing would be to just SHORTEN certain sections, i dont think removing any is necessary - i for one find them all fascinating, and great though your writing style is, it occurs to me that cutting that down a bit rather than removing some of the more numbers-based sections would probably save you the most time....

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Just read BhermyBhoy's post - i do agree with him in that it does make it a lot easier to read, digest and analyse. But then it's always been done in that way on these threads - we might get a bit nostalgic!!!! Nah - i think innovation is key here. I'd probably adopt BhBh's idea...

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Re: reports

Turns out I can't word a question very well - I wasn't actually asking if there were sections you thought could be removed. I meant specifically the season report section for the clubs, which is a HUGE block of text, especially in an exciting season. I know it's one of (if not the) most important bits, but I wondered if it was being fully read, or skim read as it is so huge....

Just to let you in on something, all the sections people have suggested cutting out take so little time that it wouldn't be worth it. There are only three sections that take probably 80% of the time:

Transfer reports

Club season reports

Player reports

The last one of those, detailing the careers of the starlets and idiots, actually takes the longest BY FAR, probably in the region of 3-4 hours continual work (I take screenshots of all 26 players, copy out stats, transfer details, look at caps/goals, club awards, personal awards, happiness, injury history and any other anomalies). I like bermybhoy's suggestion, I might try to incorporate that...

But once I'm past the player reports part of the overall thing, I know I'm only a few hours from completing the whole lot, the rest can be whipped through at speed. The 'round the world' trophy roundup, for example, takes about ten minutes.

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Re: reports

Turns out I can't word a question very well - I wasn't actually asking if there were sections you thought could be removed. I meant specifically the season report section for the clubs, which is a HUGE block of text, especially in an exciting season. I know it's one of (if not the) most important bits, but I wondered if it was being fully read, or skim read as it is so huge....

I'd be amazed if there was one person that skimmed through the season report. It's beautifully written and is the meat in the sandwich if you ask me. While I understand that you don't want to spend so long over it, I'd be sad if it was pared down to just a couple of paragraphs. That said, as always, it's in your hands and whatever morsels you throw out to us will be gratefully devoured!

Loving the whole experiment and like everyone else, I really cannot wait for the next installment. It's better than any book I've ever read on the game (football that is, not FM, natch.) and it's as unputdownable as any paperback.

KUTGW and may you be blessed with endless uninterrupted hours with which to do nothing but update the thread for all of us unworthy, complaining, pestering nutters!

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The season reports are the ones I read most in depth - I don't care that they are huge, they are the most interesting, at least to me.

The starlets & idiots while interesting, I tend to spend less time on.

I find the team dynamics more interesting the the individual players, but that's me.

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Re: reports

Turns out I can't word a question very well - I wasn't actually asking if there were sections you thought could be removed. I meant specifically the season report section for the clubs, which is a HUGE block of text, especially in an exciting season. I know it's one of (if not the) most important bits, but I wondered if it was being fully read, or skim read as it is so huge....

Skim it??...I get my coffee, sit back and savour it. Excellent read as always so if you're happy putting the time and effort into the current updates I'm sure you'll have plenty of avid readers.

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All three main ones are the biggies. season reports are always what I look forward to most and this edition I've warmed to transfer news (its club news after all) and the player reports much more, and the latter was part of the original point of this whole exercise so even when I skipped it during the last version would never have wanted it gone because lest we forget, this isn't about providing a club to rise through the ranks for us to follow no matter how much a part of the appeal it is.

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Yeah - i wouldnt cut down the season report AT ALL - i think its more the player reports that you could cut down a little. I wouldnt want them cut, DEFINITELY, but i dont think we need the depth you go into every year - obviously at the end of their playing careers its different...

Either way, Kip, it's really good at the moment - i think the last update was probably one of your best ever. But I'm seriously worried for your sanity if you think 3-4 hours to go is "close to the end"!!!

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I read every single word of the season report and for me it is the thing i look forward to most. I also take great interest on the starlets and idiots reports. Would be gutted if these were shortened, but totally understand if you need to save a bit of time. You really should be getting paid for this.

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Re: reports

Turns out I can't word a question very well - I wasn't actually asking if there were sections you thought could be removed. I meant specifically the season report section for the clubs, which is a HUGE block of text, especially in an exciting season. I know it's one of (if not the) most important bits, but I wondered if it was being fully read, or skim read as it is so huge....

Just to let you in on something, all the sections people have suggested cutting out take so little time that it wouldn't be worth it. There are only three sections that take probably 80% of the time:

Transfer reports

Club season reports

Player reports

The last one of those, detailing the careers of the starlets and idiots, actually takes the longest BY FAR, probably in the region of 3-4 hours continual work (I take screenshots of all 26 players, copy out stats, transfer details, look at caps/goals, club awards, personal awards, happiness, injury history and any other anomalies). I like bermybhoy's suggestion, I might try to incorporate that...

But once I'm past the player reports part of the overall thing, I know I'm only a few hours from completing the whole lot, the rest can be whipped through at speed. The 'round the world' trophy roundup, for example, takes about ten minutes.

The reports that you named up there in taking the longest are the ones i actually enjoy reading the most. I know we all complain about the length it takes you to write it. But without those three then it wouldn't make the experiment the same. But if you want to try new ideas you can always test new style reports in updates. Get some general feedback, And see what the craic is from there. Keep up the good work Kip

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I only scroll through the player reports for the starlets and the idiots. I never once clicked on one of their screen shots. Uploading the screenshots must take a considerable amount of time so maybe you could add them every 3-4 seasons when there is a significant change in stats.

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I only scroll through the player reports for the starlets and the idiots. I never once clicked on one of their screen shots. Uploading the screenshots must take a considerable amount of time so maybe you could add them every 3-4 seasons when there is a significant change in stats.

Good point, i never actually click on these screenshots either. If that takes a lot of time then maybe that is something you could think about cutting.

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Blimey, these reports are getting long. Honestly, how do you folks feel about the season report sections? They are extremely long, if you read it all, then great, but if not, do say, because sometimes when I see a big block of text my eyes go fuzzy. I'd be interested to know if it is actually read.

I must say I absolutely hoover up all the info.

If I was to tell you what interests me the least it would be the club reputation/finances.

Personally I like the co-efficient info too, but unless there is change happening, (which is unlikely), then that's maybe something that you could get rid of. maybe only post it if it makes interesteing reading because of a shift in power/success somewhere.

I think that every little section adds something to the progress though.

Excellent stuff:thup:.

A little worrying that even at such a "mid" level of league that the physical ability of Nathan Tyson seems to completely overshadow the goal-scoring technical ability of David Healy.

FM hasn't got many things wrong again over the years but i do think they are missing the boat here.:thdn:

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Only time I skim the season report is when I am scrolling down checking for an update, the second I see it, I scroll back up, sit back and enjoy the bliss that is Kips writing style...

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If that's what you were refering too, then I have to agree with everyone else. The team report and transfer news is the meat and potatoes of the experiment! I have to be honest and say that I skim most of the other stats, as this thread for me is more about the story and the rise and rise of the Sheriffs :D

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I read every word of the season report. It is brilliantly written. Everything else in the background goes on mute or turned off so I can take in every word.

It is a brilliant experiment which I will continue following even if I hardly post in this thread

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With regards to the bits and pieces that make up your report, I would actually like to see why things have changed and go into some more detail on that.

I mentioned in my earlier post that i like the co-efficients, but I really only like them if they show change. What I mean is if Spain, England and Italy stay at the top, and then we get Germany, France and Holland, and then Portugal Russia & Scotland, (with just a little bit of swapping between these), and then the same clubs come in the next 2 groups, (again with a little bit of shuffling), then it doesn't really add anything to the update.

If however Austria zoomed up tha rankings to 20, (like they did), then I would want to know what caused the rise in the rankings. Did Sturm Graz or rapid Vienna or Salzburg get to the group stages of something or was it gradual progression.To my mind, unless you go the whole hog and give us an explanation behind any changes we might see then you might as well not show us the changes.

Apologies if that comes across as rude. It really isn't meant that way:o.

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Only time I skim the season report is when I am scrolling down checking for an update, the second I see it, I scroll back up, sit back and enjoy the bliss that is Kips writing style...

Agreed to Muzgrob there. Reading every bit of the report, taking a look at the screenies, maybe spending an hour on it :) However spending an hour just to predict & actually read that Sheriffs won the league... Now that's just cruel but I saw that coming (call it a pessimist's curse) :thdn:

The starlets are dominating mostly. That Striker3 has to move to somewhere else or we'll have a 750+ goals career at the hands of AI which is extraordinary in my eyes :eek:

Fantabulous work as always Kip. :thup:

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I had a look on all the superstars attributes - and it struck me that none of them had particular high technical values. It seems, the psysical and mental att. take all of the CA. Not even the worl-class-strikers reach af Finishing att. on more than 16...

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fwiw I read every single word of all of your updates as well as every single post in the thread before typing anything myself and I usually will at least drop a couple of lines after each update. If I was forced to pick a section that interests me less than the others it'd be the world beaters and the upcoming stars sections but from what you said these don't take you much time so I'm not sure it'd be worth it to get rid of them. I'll join the majority and say that in the end it's really up to you to write as much as you like and cut whatever section you think isn't worth your time and effort though and like Bermybhoy suggested if you want to cut a few sections to see if your readers care enough to moan it's fine by me but the clubs season summary, no matter how long and wordy it is, often is the most captivating section imo.

Regarding this specific update I'm thrilled to see Lyon have such a wonderful season, winning the national trebble and the CL the same year goes beyond my wildest dreams for my team irl. I'd also agree with Jimbokav1971 and would like to see more details in the European Coefficient as when looking at them this time I was shocked to see France gain the fewest point out of all the top 10 nations even though Lyon won the CL, did all the other French teams get knocked out in the group stage of the CL and early in the UEFA cup?

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Regarding this specific update I'm thrilled to see Lyon have such a wonderful season, winning the national trebble and the CL the same year goes beyond my wildest dreams for my team irl. I'd also agree with Jimbokav1971 and would like to see more details in the European Coefficient as when looking at them this time I was shocked to see France gain the fewest point out of all the top 10 nations even though Lyon won the CL, did all the other French teams get knocked out in the group stage of the CL and early in the UEFA cup?

I think here, there might be a flaw in my report. I don't know when national coefficients get updated, but I've noticed after doing this for a couple of seasons that on May 31, the coefficients are a year behind, i.e. in May 2013, the coefficients are correct up to the end of the 2011-12 season. So Lyon's successes will appear in next season's report.

If anyone knows when these are actually updated, I'll zoom the game on to that date and do it properly.

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Ok, first off, phenomenal update as usual Kip, you are the master storyteller of these forums. Secondly, I read everything you write up, partly because you write it so well and partly because I find it genuinely interesting. As far as national co-efficients are concerned, I think that even if they are a year behind, on May 31 the co-efficients are updated for the next season. So maybe it should just be the way the game does it? (If that made any sense at all...)

And finally, I can't believe the Sherriffs leapfrogged us, oh nooooooooooo! C'mon Bandits!

Looking forward to the next update Kip, KUTGW!

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oh Bandits Bandits Bandits. Not good enough. I was right that the Sheriffs would go straight up, and I'll stick by my claim that they'll crash and burn (again, just because if I'm right I'll look smart), but it's beginning to seem that their temperament is better suited to reaching the big boys quicktime than the Bandits' is. You can afford to be ambitious in a way that would be foolish for most if you have the funds and talent to back it up, and that's what the Sheriffs have, while the Bandits are perhaps being unnecessarily patient and aiming for a steady, stable progress that they could easily do better than. But in another sense, the Sheriffs are the ones being sensible, building themselves a solid squad while the Bandits rely on the marquee players who, if they don't cut the mustard (as Healy didn't), bring the whole team down with them.

I don't always read everything, but I think everything we currently have is of great value. I wouldn't want to lose anything! If anyone thinks the report is getting too long, one thing I would suggest the occasional little in-text summary, emboldening lines like The Bandits make it through January with three wins and a draw and are three points behind the league leaders, just to assist anyone who's skimming.

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Good point, i never actually click on these screenshots either. If that takes a lot of time then maybe that is something you could think about cutting.

Same for me, have never clicked the screenshots and find I skip the starlet/idiot reports completely in this experiment, as they don't seem so interesting as the previous experiment.

I love reading the season reports, a brilliant read every time.

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I think here, there might be a flaw in my report. I don't know when national coefficients get updated, but I've noticed after doing this for a couple of seasons that on May 31, the coefficients are a year behind, i.e. in May 2013, the coefficients are correct up to the end of the 2011-12 season. So Lyon's successes will appear in next season's report.

If anyone knows when these are actually updated, I'll zoom the game on to that date and do it properly.

On my game the European Co-Efficients were released/updated on the 15th of June

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I had a look on all the superstars attributes - and it struck me that none of them had particular high technical values. It seems, the psysical and mental att. take all of the CA. Not even the worl-class-strikers reach af Finishing att. on more than 16...

That would be because Kip gave them 20 in every attribute in the editor and witht the current CA system it's not possible to be that good in the game so the game lowers most of the attributes. Some attributes have a lower weighing which allows them to stay high.

@Kip: I wouldn't want anything cut from your report because it's so good! Although I do agree with Jimbo about the league rankings, if you did that the report would be even more fantastic.

My opinion about what actually happened in the report: ****! ****! ****. ****ing Sheriffs.

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I think here, there might be a flaw in my report. I don't know when national coefficients get updated, but I've noticed after doing this for a couple of seasons that on May 31, the coefficients are a year behind, i.e. in May 2013, the coefficients are correct up to the end of the 2011-12 season. So Lyon's successes will appear in next season's report.

If anyone knows when these are actually updated, I'll zoom the game on to that date and do it properly.

Thanks for the response. I'm pretty sure the rankings are updated at season end so between June 15th and June 20th. If you could post them as of July 1st to make sure I think it would make more sense. Thanks in advance. :thup:

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My predictions.

Bandits to have best short-term success, Sherrifs in the middle-term will catch up as they won't have as many players to replace, but the Bandits will get to the Premiership first.

Long-term I think both will win at least something.

Bring it on!

Satisfyingly close to what is actually happening, though I'll need the Sheriffs to stall in the Championship.

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Great update as always Kip, and don't cut anything out of the season reports, they are the best bit and always read in full by me.

I do have one question though, and apologies if this has been answered before. I've noticed when looking at the screenshots of the starlets that the spread of their attributes is almost identical for all the players, with the focus being on physical and mental attributes and no-one having a single technical attribtue over 15.

Is there any reason for this?

I just think it would have been great to see the players developing slightly differently, so that the strikers had high finishing and technique with the defenders having higher tackling and marking. I was always under the impression that you set their mental attributes to be high and then just set the CA and PA, leaving the other attributes to be determined by the game. Is this correct or am I missing something?

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The season report is fine as it is. Imo it's the best part of the experiment and doesn't need changing.

I agree with a post a few above that the screenshots of the starlets could be cut. Now they're all nearing 200 CA they're not really going to change from season to season until they hit a major decline, so maybe they could only be posted if there's a significant change in CA for a player.

As for the actual season, I'm surprised the Sheriffs were promoted ahead of the Bandits. I can't see them getting a 5th promotion in a row though next season. I think the Bandits will go up automatically though.

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Disappointed to see the Bandits fall behind the Sheriffs. Who would have thought that would happen two seasons ago. Cant imagine the Sheriffs will go straight up from the Championship though, and im confident the Bandits will finally escape League one this season. That should set us up for a cracking race to get to the Premiership.

C'm'on the Bandits

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