kipfizh

AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

2,155 posts in this topic

[quote name='StewartJRobertson']I actually laughed out loud when i read that Bent was on 90k p/w. That has to be the most ridiculous thing that has happened in this experiment.[/QUOTE]

It may seem to be one of the dafter things to have occured during the experiment, but perhaps it actually shows the mentality of the AI with the actual attributes they've been given.

Whereas the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly, the Sheriffs want immediate success, even if it is to the detriment of their finances.

Lets see what effect it does have. :)

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To be fair, while paying 90k/pw is way excessive it kind of make sense. If you have the money and can maintain it is a very working way (maybe not prudent, but it gets the job done) to getting better good players into lower leagues. I mean, IRL Bent would never had said no to that contract :)

Also interesting result in terms of AI behaviour, i.e. that you can overrule the normal considerations of reputation, like/dislike etc if you hike someone's salery enough.

However, will be interesting to see if the super board/manager can manage to run the club into major deficit but I doubt it though.

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[quote name='robterrace']It may seem to be one of the dafter things to have occured during the experiment, but perhaps it actually shows the mentality of the AI with the actual attributes they've been given.

Whereas the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly, the Sheriffs want immediate success, even if it is to the detriment of their finances.

Lets see what effect it does have. :)[/QUOTE]

Isn't it The Bandits who are paying the £90k p/w?

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Could it be possible that the Bandits go into administration because of financial collapse later on, if these are the wages they're paying in League 2?

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tbf, with 80000 coming a week, I doubt they will ever go into administration.

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Even that can only bring in a finite amount of money, even if its high. Especially as prices in L2 won't be that high. They had a massive starting balance (presumably increased by now) and that will see them through. Admitedly I have no idea where income (which will be mostly gate reciepts until the championship at least) stands in relation to the wage expenditure at the moment so they may still be making a massive profit and there's nothing to worry about but I doubt they can afford many more players at such high rates. and existing players will be prone to wanting a better relative wage. Even if large wages do push the club into a loss the balance comfort cushion is so great that unless they get stuck for years in the lower leagues (which doesn't look like happening this time) it'll be fine. Anyway as high as 90k is in L2 its still a realistic wage for the game as a whole so we can't assume that means that individual wages will increase to 150-200k plus or something in the premiership just because logic would otherwise dictate that in normal circumstances a team will be paying much more there then in L2. They may just have reached the higher wage level early because of their circumstances.

I think I'm doing the wrong degree.

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[quote name='StewartJRobertson']I actually laughed out loud when i read that Bent was on 90k p/w. That has to be the most ridiculous thing that has happened in this experiment.[/QUOTE]

I've seen evidence in my game of why this happens - wage demands are always relative to the wage budget. I can remember a few occasions where a player demanded a certain wage from me, I got a higher budget from my board, and suddenly everyone's demands went up. I guess this is an extension of that - the players know the Bandits can shell out the cash, so they demand it.

Mind you, we complained that they didn't in FM07 - I don't really care if they pay massive wages as they aren't going to be into financial difficulties.

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I find it quite interesting that players, and the game itself takes that into account with regards to wage demands.

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[quote name='robterrace']It may seem to be one of the dafter things to have occured during the experiment, but perhaps it actually shows the mentality of the AI with the actual attributes they've been given.

Whereas the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly, the Sheriffs want immediate success, even if it is to the detriment of their finances.

Lets see what effect it does have. :)[/QUOTE]

How can you say that the Bandits are willing to build and spend slowly? If anything they are even more desperate for success than the Sheriffs.

Just to be clear, im not bothered by the massive spending of either team. It will be interesting to see what effect it has on players transfers in the future. I wonder if they are setting a dangerous precedent here. Will all future signings be demanding these kind of wages and will the Bandits be able to sustain it.

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[quote name='StewartJRobertson']I actually laughed out loud when i read that Bent was on 90k p/w. That has to be the most ridiculous thing that has happened in this experiment.[/QUOTE]

it'll be even funnier if he doesn't perform

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You've got to remember the Bandits have got genuine gate income coming in, they don't have bored billionaires running the show. If the gate income is covering the wages then it is financially prudent, even if at first glance is seems excessive.


Kip - I'm Vinson Massif, you absolutely thrashed me in a friendly :D

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I think its great that the game is accurately portraying what a RL manager and RL club would do, the AI is throwing its weight and cash around as would happen in real life with all that money coming in.

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[quote name='Wegason']I think its great that the game is accurately portraying what a RL manager and RL club would do, the AI is throwing its weight and cash around as would happen in real life with all that money coming in.[/QUOTE]

Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate. This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits. Personally i dont think it would happen in real life, no matter what financial strength the club had. 90k is more than the entire wage budget for clubs at that level. Money is still money and no matter how much they have, this has to be noted as being significantly extravagant. On wages of 90k a week i also reckon they could have attracted better quality than Marcus Bent. If they dont get promotion then these wages have been wasted.

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[quote name='StewartJRobertson']Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate. This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits. Personally i dont think it would happen in real life, no matter what financial strength the club had. 90k is more than the entire wage budget for clubs at that level. Money is still money and no matter how much they have, this has to be noted as being significantly extravagant. On wages of 90k a week i also reckon they could have attracted better quality than Marcus Bent. If they dont get promotion then these wages have been wasted.[/QUOTE]

It's similar in a way to Man City offering Kaka £500k a week, they are clearly trying to punch above their weight by shelling out extortionate wages.

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[quote name='StewartJRobertson']Is that accurate though? 90k p/w in league two? There is no precedent to suggest that is accurate. [/QUOTE]

There is no precedent to suggest [i]anything[/i]. There is no precedent for the combination of that league position, that average attendance and that level of cash. In such circumstances, you cannot meaningfully argue from what has happened before, and have to look at whether the decision makes sense in the circumstances. I think it does: with no money worries for the time being, the club's focus has to be on promotion.

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The question has to be asked though, with a willingness to pay those wages in League Two, if they get promoted, will that willingness see them promote every season until they reach the Premiership? They may be attracting quality players in the Championship by offering an absolute fortune to them. If they do promote that quickly, we may see real life players we've heard of playing for the Bandits in the Premiership.

That would be awesome.

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[quote name='Jack Rudd']There is no precedent to suggest [i]anything[/i]. There is no precedent for the combination of that league position, that average attendance and that level of cash. In such circumstances, you cannot meaningfully argue from what has happened before, and have to look at whether the decision makes sense in the circumstances. I think it does: with no money worries for the time being, the club's focus has to be on promotion.[/QUOTE]

You are jumping on half a quote here mate. I do go on to say "This is obviously a unique situation with the Bandits." Im not saying that there should or could be a precedent. You are deliberately taking my point and changing its context. What i was saying is its impossible to say that the AI is being accurate because this is what would happen in real life. If you are going to quote me in future, please actually read what i posted in the first place. Cheers.

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[quote name='Wegason']The question has to be asked though, with a willingness to pay those wages in League Two, if they get promoted, will that willingness see them promote every season until they reach the Premiership? They may be attracting quality players in the Championship by offering an absolute fortune to them. If they do promote that quickly, we may see real life players we've heard of playing for the Bandits in the Premiership.

That would be awesome.[/QUOTE]

I think that is a real possibility on my own dafuge save my club was bought as we took the step up to the championship and could buy top class players straight away and I believe that my club could have taken the step up to premier league even with an AI manager.

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A little sidenote for future ideas or whatnot:

If the players would have obscure nationalities (Wallis & Furtuna, Bhutan, Somalia) and their reps being what they are (minimum), then wouldn't it take them longer to leave considering
a) when creating them you'd tie them for many years with the club and since they wouldn't receive work permits, their contracts would remain as they are for a long time
b) it would take some time for the players to get international recognition to ever play for their obscure countries, thus getting the work permits required to move within the English leagues (as I'd fathom other leagues would have lower interest in them)
c) again, it would take a number of years for some of the premiership or championship sides to get belgian or polish feeders enabling them to buy the players, and putting them on a course of loan>reputation gain>international call-ups>work permit
d) finally, if none of the above actually happened, then in 5 years all of them would gain British citizenship allowing them to freely move and expand themselves at still a young age of 22

With these in mind, the goal of the Bandits retaining their players and reaching with them fame and glory could be more attainable, at least from a theoretical point of view. But as I said, just a mere idea :)

And kip, your threads are awesome (as I've also read the 2007 one fully), I don't know when you have the time man, all I can say is cheers and keep up the good work!

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In the 07 experiment the bandits were extremely well off, but never utilised that wealth, so it's very nice to see the club spending big on a player and with wages so early in the save.
It appears there has been a minor change or 2 under the hood of FM
Players dropping down divisions for a fat paycheck seems a fair reflection of the game today.

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[quote name='aemud']A little sidenote for future ideas or whatnot:

If the players would have obscure nationalities (Wallis & Furtuna, Bhutan, Somalia) and their reps being what they are (minimum), then wouldn't it take them longer to leave considering
a) when creating them you'd tie them for many years with the club and since they wouldn't receive work permits, their contracts would remain as they are for a long time[/QUOTE]
Not really, no. It would take at most a couple of years for foreign clubs to notice them, and they'd be snapped up by clubs from countries that don't require work permits.
[QUOTE]b) it would take some time for the players to get international recognition to ever play for their obscure countries, thus getting the work permits required to move within the English leagues (as I'd fathom other leagues would have lower interest in them)[/QUOTE]And again, they'd move on to Italian, Spanish, French and German clubs, and would probably never play in the English leagues. Well, at least until several years later when the likes of Chelsea would shell out a fortune for them.
[QUOTE]c) again, it would take a number of years for some of the premiership or championship sides to get belgian or polish feeders enabling them to buy the players, and putting them on a course of loan>reputation gain>international call-ups>work permit[/QUOTE]And of course, by that time they'd be playing for Milan and Real and Bayern, so it's a moot point.
[QUOTE]d) finally, if none of the above actually happened, then in 5 years all of them would gain British citizenship allowing them to freely move and expand themselves at still a young age of 22[/QUOTE]Replace "British" with "Italian" and/or "Spanish". :)

[QUOTE]With these in mind, the goal of the Bandits retaining their players and reaching with them fame and glory could be more attainable, at least from a theoretical point of view. But as I said, just a mere idea :)[/QUOTE]
It sounds like a nice idea, but unfortunately it's unattainable. Sure, they'd have two or three, maybe even four years with at least a few top class players, but by the time they reach European-class football their starlets would have been gone all the same.

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Thing is, it's surely possible to force the players to stay with the Bandits forever, by one quirk of the database or another - it just wouldn't be much of an experiment.

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indeed, I don't think it would take a rocket surgeon to accurately guess how the perfect club with 22 perfect players would turn out.

What a tease that little teaser was, five days later and I'm all ready to explode with anticipation.

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I had looked at the thread for a week before friday afternoon, now I wish I hadn't.... Kip we know its a bank holiday but we need the season update :D

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Even if this experiment is kind of under extreme conditions I still think that this issue with the high wages in lower leagues is something that has to be tweaked by SI games. There has to be an attribute for "negotiations skills" for AI managers. Not everyone is good at it, in the same way as players can demand higher wages if they "smell" if the club that is interested in them has a lot of money managers must be able to predict what the player is prepared to play for in spite of their wage demands. As it is now this recommendation that assistant managers give "sign at any cost" seems to be taken quite literally by the AI managers.

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The teaser was just because the report wasn't quite finished :) It nearly is now :)

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Oooo Kip thats cruel! We talking within hours or this week or what?? Hope you're feeling better and over the 'swine flu' :P

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[quote name='kipfizh']The teaser was just because the report wasn't quite finished :) It nearly is now :)[/QUOTE]

Good to hear, looking forward to it :thup:

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Can't wait for next update. Got a feeling a shock may be in the offing. Maybe a shock for the Bandits. Hope i'm proved wrong but could promotion be difficult this year.
Ps - 10 pages and only 2 seasons. Amazing

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Bah, the antipication is growing by the hour, can't wait for the next update!

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An update today would soften the blow of the CL final defeat slightly...

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I was hoping an update would soften the blow of Newcastle getting relegated. it never came, :(

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Actually, I don't even want an update today.


(reverse psychology)

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I wonder if Kips interest is on the wane.... it wouldn't surprise me.

*gets on knees and prays to god that isnt true*

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I must admit with such long breaks between updates im struggling to get into the new experiment.Anyone else think less detailed reports in quicker succession would be better?

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Is there any way that any of us can help you with the writing up of reports Kip? It seems as if with all the extra detail that you have added in this experiment, you have given yourself a bit of an epic task. If there is anything we could do to help, im sure you wouldnt be short of volunteers.

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I think less detailed but more reports is the way to go. This experiment does seem to be dragging on a bit, without much experimentation.

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maybe if we all contribute a fiver a month, kip can quit his job and become a full-time FM experimenter!

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[quote name='civilservant']I wonder if Kips interest is on the wane.... it wouldn't surprise me.

*gets on knees and prays to god that isnt true*[/QUOTE]

Ye of little faith. ;)


[quote name='TB36']I must admit with such long breaks between updates im struggling to get into the new experiment.Anyone else think less detailed reports in quicker succession would be better?[/QUOTE]

Can't say I agree - the format is absolutely fine as it is, yeah it may be a bit slow but anyone who followed the FM07 version will know that patience is a huge virtue when it comes to this experiment.


[quote name='wisescummer']I think less detailed but more reports is the way to go. This experiment does seem to be dragging on a bit, without much experimentation.[/QUOTE]


Admittedly this experiment isn't rapidly going through the updates like others, but at the end of the day its quality not quantity that makes an experiment worthwhile. Kip was ill for a while and also has a job + family life to contend with, all take precedence over FM.


In your own time Kip, it will be worth the wait. :)

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£500 a month isn't too bad, if Kip doesn't think it's enough then he isn't worth our adulation! :mad:

I don't think I'd want anything missing from the current format, even if it made it considerably quicker. Admittedly this gap has been a bit much, but there are mitigating circumstances, what with Kip's miraculous recovery from swine flu and so on. That said, if it's not here by tomorrow, heads will roll.

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There are some outrageous comments flying about in here. Anyone that's run an experiment should sympathise with kip - the amount of data and reports he has to do will take days not hours imo. Well worth the wait :thup:

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[QUOTE=Walcott\'s Wonderkids;3283627]Ye of little faith. ;)

Can't say I agree - the format is absolutely fine as it is, yeah it may be a bit slow but anyone who followed the FM07 version will know that patience is a huge virtue when it comes to this experiment.

Admittedly this experiment isn't rapidly going through the updates like others, but at the end of the day its quality not quantity that makes an experiment worthwhile. Kip was ill for a while and also has a job + family life to contend with, all take precedence over FM.

In your own time Kip, it will be worth the wait. :)[/QUOTE]


Good to see you back WW :)

All the people that want less details and more reports, it'll be a bit harsh but, can you please create your own db and holiday the game for yourself please? We are looking for a story here, not only an experiment. We are (The mighty Bandits) not a created team that you read pages of updates every week. The bigger the success, the longer we have to wait ;)

Kip, I, talking only for myself, won't even mind if you write the report one month later. I, as an avid follower of the '07 experiment and as the proud creator of the facebook fan group, would like US to write history all over rather than romping through updates. I'll be one of the happy bunch when we celebrate our first EPL trophy while the Sheriffs were drooling over our success.

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My comment seems to have attracted undue criticism. I wasn't criticising Kip. I was merely saying that if there is too much detail in the reports he could leave a few out. I was trying to suggest he could make it easier for himself, while still fulfilling the goal of seeing how the AI deals with the bandits and Sheriffs over a long period. This is a fantastic experiment, but perhaps its scope has become too wide, thus frustrating the overall aims.

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I'm wondering if at this rate we will have enough data on this experiment in two years time, i.e. by the time FM11 is released. The 07 experiment went on for 2 years. If this experiment is taking longer to do (this may not be the case), it might be wise to carry it on for 3 years instead of 2.

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