kipfizh

AI Experiment - The Bandits are back for FM09

2,155 posts in this topic

[B]A little history lesson[/B]

Back in FM07, an experiment was created to analyse how the game engine would handle extreme circumstances. A fictional team, the Bandits, were created, given 22 superstar teenagers, a huge bank balance and the freedom to rise up from their initial starting point of the Conference South.

In addition, two bad eggs were created. Equally as talented as the kids at the Bandits, they had abysmal mental statistics, with no intention of loyalty or even working hard.

The experiment ran for over two years of real time, and nearly 70 years in-game.

[EDIT - if you want to skip straight to the first update, you'll find it here:

[url]http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=2946303#post2946303][/url]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]What did we learn?[/B]

Back in FM07, reputation was everything. Once the superstars had all retired, all the Bandits could claim to be was rich. Their financial status (by then they were worth close to a billion) didn't seem to help their reputation all that much, and they were unable to buy decent players, and more importantly, attract a decent manager. The fact that their board had less talent than Titus Bramble's weaker foot didn't help either.

That said, the Bandits did make it to the Premiership, although it took them a good few decades to make it. They nearly won it one year, but in the end, despite being the second richest club in the land (behind Chelsea), all they had to show for seventy years were three League Cup trophies. No league, no FA Cup, no European glory.

As for the players, the young Bandit kids all moved on within two years, and most went on to forge terrific careers in the Premiership (and one in Milan). Those that struggled, notably the wide players in Chelsea's midfield (Chelsea were playing a narrow 5-3-2 while they were there) lacked the ambition to move to a club more suited to them, and as such lost valuable years of their careers.

The idiots, being complete muppets, were set to hate the biggest clubs in Europe, and as a result refused to move to them. However, they did complain that the second rate clubs they stayed at weren't good enough, so they weren't exactly helping themselves. Despite playing well themselves, it became apparent that having Anelka's sulkier brother in your dressing room is bad for the club - wherever they went, their team struggled despite their awesome individual talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Why did the experiment end?[/B]

Well, my laptop died. But in reality, it was coming to a close anyway - there were plenty of things we learnt along the way, and plenty of ways I'd change the experiment if I started it again. All these are detailed below.

In the end, only the England league structure had changed in 70 years - if you don't run a country as a playable league, the dominant teams don't change, and if you don't play a league on full detail, the scorelines rarely vary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]So what is staying the same?[/B]

The Bandits have been recreated for FM09 (replacing Fisher in the Conference South), and are once again blessed with a huge bank balance (25m to start), fanbase and stadium. In other words, they are financially set for life.

The 22 superstar kids have also been recreated, with two for every position of a standard 4-4-2. They have perfect attributes (adjusted down on game start), perfect mentality, are both footed, versatile, fit,honest, excellent in a free role, and have just passed their 17th birthdays.

Each kid has 150 CA and 200 PA, loves the Bandits, and is as loyal as can be. That probably won't stop them leaving, however, although they have minimum reputation to delay their inevitable departures.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]What about the changes?[/B]

[I]The 22 superstar Bandits:[/I]

In FM07, the kids were wonderful, but altogether a little unambitious. In that experiment, their ambition was set to 1, but here it has been raised to 15 so that they can recognise when their careers have stalled. It should also drive them to succeed with a passion they didn't have before. Thanks for VonBlade for this suggestion.

Also, only a handful of the FM07 starlets went into management when their careers ended, probably again because of a lack of ambition. This time, they have maximum desire to step into management.

Finally, each of the 22 have been given a second nationality, varying all around the world, from huge nations to obscure. The test is to see if any of them choose their second nationality as the country to represent (thanks to Meitheisman for this one). They are as follows:

Goalkeeper 1: Argentina
Goalkeeper 2: Brazil
Left Back 1: Croatia
Left Back 2: Denmark
Right Back 1: Equatorial Guinea
Right Back 2: France
Centre Back 1: Germany
Centre Back 2: Holland
Centre Back 3: Italy
Centre Back 4: Jamaica
Left Mid 1: Kazakhstan
Left Mid 2: Luxembourg
Right Mid 1: Mexico
Right Mid 2: New Zealand
Centre Mid 1: Oman
Centre Mid 2: Portugal
Centre Mid 3: Qatar
Centre Mid 4: Rwanda
Striker 1: Spain
Striker 2: Thailand
Striker 3: USA
Striker 4: Vanuatu

[I]The idiots[/I]

In FM07, there were only two idiots, and they could play absolutely anywhere (except in goal). Both started the game unattached, and both acted as if being a moron was a national competition. In FM09, there are four (count em) of them. One goalkeeper, one defender, one midfielder and one striker.

Each of the outfield idiots can play centrally or wide, and they are excellent in a free role. However, they have no work rate or teamwork, their mentality is the worst possible, with a 1 for everything except ambition and controversy, which are maxed. They are dirty hackers, and they like to dive into tackles and argue with the referees.

Like their counterparts at the Bandits, they also have a second nationality, completing the 26 alternative nationalities starting with every letter of the alphabet (except X - they aren't any!). Their second nationalities are:

Idiot Goalkeeper: Wales
Idiot Defender: Northern Mariana
Idiot Midfielder: Yemen
Idiot Striker: Zambia

They also hate 22 clubs the world over. Why 22? Well, there are 21 clubs with a reputation of 8000 or more, and they are:

England - Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool
Spain - Real Madrid, Barcelona, Sevilla, Valencia
Italy - Inter, AC Milan, Juventus, Roma, Fiorentina
Germany - Bayern Munich
France - Lyon
Portugal - Porto, Benfica, Sporting
Brazil - Sao Paulo
Argentina - River, Boca

In addition, they detest the Bandits, and all they stand for. All their hate, incidentally, is marked as permanent.

And the idiots also want to move into management. They didn't in FM07, and the thought of the most unstable men in the world guiding the careers of others is frankly hilarious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Who are the Sheriffs?[/B]

The Sheriffs are the antithesis of the Bandits. Replacing Bognor Regis in the Conference South, they are the Bandits great rivals, and the natural home for each of the idiots. All four start contracted with the Sheriffs, a club they love. But an idiot's love is never permanent, and unlike the kids over at the Bandits, their favouritism of the Sheriffs can fade. It should be interesting to see how the idiots fare at the same club - in FM07 they never played together.

The Sheriffs have exactly the same reputation, financial muscle and youth setup as the Bandits, and their ground, the River Styx, is identical to the Bandits' home of Ocean View Park. The only difference is that the Bandits have a sugar daddy while the Sheriffs do not.

Each of the 22 Bandits hate the Sheriffs as much as the idiots hate the Bandits.

Note that while the Bandits start with 22 players, the Sheriffs begin with only four. They will be forced to use their financial strength immediately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Surely the Bandits and the Sheriffs are almost identical, and once the players leave there will be no difference?[/B]

The ethos at a club comes from the top, so in this version of the experiment, both the Bandits and the Sheriffs are assigned a chairman, a director, a manager and a coach. All are appropriate to their clubs.

The Bandits chairman has the same mentality as the superstars (including their ambition), while his chairman stats read 20 for business and resources, 15 for patience, and 8 for interference. With their financial clout, the odd chairman purchase is no bad thing.

The Sheriffs chairman is the opposite, with the same mentality as the idiots, and chairman stats reading 1 for business, 20 for resources, 1 for patience and 20 for interference. He's rich, talented and annoying.

Both chairmen have 200 CA and are aged 30. The directors are in exactly the same ilk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]And the managers?[/B]

The Bandits' manager is the same age and mentality as the chairman, and also has 200 CA. The tactical attributes that have been set are: 20 for attacking, flexibility, free roles, pressing, tactical knowledge, tempo and playmaker usage, 5 for dirtiness allowance, and 1 for sitting back. The idea is to make him play attacking, flowing football.

On the non-tactical side, both scouting judgements abilities, buying players, man management, motivating, and working with youngsters have been set to 20. Everything else is set to zero to randomise them - the other attributes personalise the manager without necessarily making him better or worse.

As for the Sheriffs' manager, he has the same awful mentality of his boss, and the same 200 CA talent. His attacking preference and allowance of dirty play is set to 20, as is his hardness of training and discipline. The combination of him as a hard taskmaster and the idiots as lazy beasts could be fiery. He is as brilliant a spotter of young talent as his Bandits counterpart, and loves to play mind games.

The Bandits also have one perfect coach, with the expected excellent mental strength and ability, while the Sheriffs have a brilliant but insane one teaching their young players how to play. Both want to become managers in their own right.

Note that all players, and all off field staff, have a minimum reputation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Any other changes to the clubs?[/B]

Both clubs have been relocated to Poole, with the area growing to a 20 million+ acropolis, with a maximum attraction rating. It is where the kids want to be, but which club's youth academy will get them?

[B]Finally, how about the changes to the game world itself?[/B]

In FM07, only England was a playable league, meaning the rest of the world stayed fairly static, and brilliant young players could not be tracked, sometimes disappearing because they played in the wrong country. In addition, nothing was played on full detail, which normalised a lot of the results. The Bandits never had a more extreme scoreline than 5-1 in the 70 year history.

England is still the main country, but each of the nations with a 8000+ reputation club (Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Brazil and Argentina) is playable down to their nation's second tier, and those nations are joined by Belgium (for work permit reasons), Holland and Scotland.

Also, the whole of the English game will be played on full detail (including cups), as will all competitive internationals in the world (in FM07 the same countries qualified endlessly because this wasn't the case). In all other playable leagues, the top division and the domestic cups will be on full detail, as will continental competitions.

A country by country breakdown follows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]England[/B]

Playable down to Blue Square North/South (max depth - 6/6).
Full detail on for all leagues, FA Cup, League Cup, Johnstone's Paint Trophy, Community Shield, FA Trophy and Conference League Cup
Full detail off for reserve and under 18s

[B]Argentina[/B]

Playable down to Second Division (max depth - 2/2).
Full detail on for First Division
Full detail off for Second Division

[B]Belgium[/B]

Playable down to Second League (not max depth - 2/3).
Full detail on for Pro League, Belgian Cup and Super Cup
Full detail off for Second League, Under 19s and Under 21s

[B]Brazil[/B]

Playable down to Second Division (not max depth - 2/3).
Full detail on for First Division and Brazilian Cup
Full detail off for Second Division, all state competitions, reserves and Under 20s

[B]France[/B]

Playable down to Ligue 2 (not max depth - 2/4)
Full detail on for Ligue 1, French Cup, Coupe de la Ligue and Champions Trophy
Full detail off for Ligue 2, reserves and Under 18s

[B]Germany[/B]

Playable down to Second Division (not max depth - 2/3)
Full detail on for First Division and German Cup
Full detail off for Second Division and Under 19s

[B]Holland[/B]

Playable down to Eerste Divisie (max depth - 2/2)
Full detail on for Eredivisie, Dutch Cup and Super Cup
Full detail off for Eerste Divisie, reserves and Under 19s

[B]Italy[/B]

Playable down to Serie B (not max depth - 2/3)
Full detail on for Serie A, Italian Cup and Super Cup
Full detail off for Serie B, reserves and Under 20s

[B]Portugal[/B]

Playable down to Liga Vitalis (not max depth - 2/3)
Full detail on for Liga Sagres, Portuguese Cup, League Cup and Super Cup
Full detail off for Liga Vitalis, reserves and Under 19s

[B]Scotland[/B]

Playable down to First Division (not max depth - 2/4)
Full detail on for Premier League, Scottish Cup, League Cup and Challenge Cup
Full detail off for First Division, reserves and Under 19s

[B]Spain[/B]

Playable down to Liga Adelante (not max depth - 2/3)
Full detail on for Liga BBVA (La Liga), Spanish Cup, Super Cup and Federation Cup
Full detail off for Liga Adelante

[B]Continental Competitions[/B]

Full detail on for World Club Championship, Champions League, UEFA Cup, Intertoto Cup, Super Cup, Copa Libertadores, Copa Sudamericana and Recopa
Full detail off for North American competitions (not sure why this was even an option given that I'm not running any North American leagues)

[B]Internationals[/B]

Full detail on for World Cup, African Nations, Asian Cup, European Championships, Gold Cup, OCE Nations Cup, Copa America, Confederations Cup, Olympics, all youth equivalents, and qualifiers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Game Start[/B]

So having started the save, what is instantly noticeable?

1) The players have had their attributes reduced to 11 across the board (originally set to 20), except for many physical attributes, flair and a couple of others, that remain at 20. This is because their CA is 150, and they still have time to improve in the right areas for their positions. This was expected.

2) Their home reputation has been adjusted to fit their stunning ability. Set to 1 in the database, they are all 6749/10000 so quite famous. Their reputation outside England is still minimal.

3) The perfect coaches have had a few coaching attributes dropped from 20 to 18. They can't be perfect, it seems. Fair enough.

4) Both perfect coaches were given the assistant manager position at their clubs.

5) All the players have become part of international youth setups immediately. 18 of the 26 are involved with the England Under 19s or England Under 21s squads, while Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Italy, France, Portugal and Spain have taken their players. Only Centre Back 1 is overlooked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So here's a quick question to start off - in FM07 you could add players to your shortlist even when unemployed, which was extremely useful for this experiment, as I got all the news about each of the players I was tracking.

This doesn't seem to be the case in FM09, is there any way of doing it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excellent start to the night after a tiring day at univ. About shortlist issue, people tend to add themselves to lower league clubs & form a list there, holidaying & saving the list as far as I know. Never tried it though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='5ergio']Excellent start to the night after a tiring day at univ. About shortlist issue, people tend to add themselves to lower league clubs & form a list there, holidaying & saving the list as far as I know. Never tried it though.[/QUOTE]

Good idea. Might add myself as a second tier Belgian manager or something, so that there's no way I can interfere (a Blue Square North side could get promoted and meet either the Bandits or Sheriffs, or meet in a cup).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Read through a lot of the FM07 threadbut never posted there, will voice my support in this version though :thup:

Unfortunately I can't help you with the shortlist much though and 5ergio's suggestion is the only one I know of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great to see this again. Made for awesome reading. :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think you can also add to a shortlist as International manager. So perhaps you can manage a country that the players are not involved with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Think your gonna have to add youself as amanager and use ast manager. Not ideal. but should work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When a thread needs 12 introductory posts you know it's going to be a stormer :D

Looks good already Kip, the improvements and additions should make this even more interesting than the previous version.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So excited the bandiots are back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
great to see this back up and even more interesting this time around. Only way around the shortlist problem I've found is to take control at a club where I know there will be no interference with the players involved. Good luck Kip :thup: (not that you'll need it :D)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Same as above followed the last one from last year onwards but never posted (not sure why) will be fully behind this one

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I am looking forward to following this :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Tomaldinho']When a thread needs 12 introductory posts you know it's going to be a stormer :D
[/quote]

It's actually a very good way of doing things imo, I'd have still read it all if it was in one post, but I'm sure a lot of people would have been put off if they saw such a mahoosive opening post :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I would say this needs to be a sticky, but I think with the interest its gonna generate it's gonna be high up anyway.;););)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Not that many people come into the CSE forum though, do they? Most head straight for GD and OTF so this may get lost by the masses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='DB1']I would say this needs to be a sticky, but I think with the interest its gonna generate it's gonna be high up anyway.[/quote]

to quote Ter from the original experiment -
[QUOTE]
No, it doesn't need to be a sticky. It's not any more important than any of the other topics.

You don't need to constantly bump it either as I'm sure kipfizh will post an update when he gets a chance then everyone can discuss the results.[/QUOTE]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Tomaldinho']Not that many people come into the CSE forum though, do they? Most head straight for GD and OTF so this may get lost by the masses.[/QUOTE]

Judging from the number of replies already, there'll be a fair few readers :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='PaulHartman71']It's actually a very good way of doing things imo, I'd have still read it all if it was in one post, but I'm sure a lot of people would have been put off if they saw such a mahoosive opening post :D[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I can't help but scan read huge swathes of paragraphs. I have to do so many posts because I'm utterly unable to keep things concise :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh god yes!! Here we go and I'm in from the start!! Good luck kip :thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Good to see it start again!

For CB1 not having a call up: has it something to do with the German team not being licensed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Its like a new patch release. The buzz is high. Can honestly say I am really looking forward to the new Bandits. Rivals and second nationalitys. These are going to make it very interesting

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Grec']Good to see it start again!

For CB1 not having a call up: has it something to do with the German team not being licensed?[/quote]

Maybe Kip needs to "internet search engine"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can't wait for this! I think the best way to do the shortlist thing is to become manager of a weird nation who have no games except the odd friendly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='Grec']For CB1 not having a call up: has it something to do with the German team not being licensed?[/QUOTE]

Absolutely no idea, but I'll watch his situation and see if it changes!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can't wait :) Only started reading towards the end of the 07 experiment so glad to be here from the start this time and good luck :thup:

One question though, that's alot of leagues, I take it you've got a PC that will be able to handle that many 20 years down the line?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Pre-game analysis - Bandits squad[/B]

The Bandits start the game with only the original starlets, all with 150 CA and 200 PA. There are no other youth players at the club.

[B]Pre-game analysis - Sheriffs squad[/B]

The Sheriffs are forced to bring in a few players to augment their squad of four, and their initial set looks like this:

Idiot Goalkeeper, 17, GK, 150-200
Idiot Defender, 17, SW, D RLC, 150-200
Idiot Midfielder, 17, WB RL, DM, AM RLC, 150-200
Idiot Striker, 17, FC, 150-200
Miller, 16, MR, 66-177
Jones, 16, MC, 43-115
Clifford, 16, DC, 43-105
Garvey, 15, DC, 40-40
Lees, 16, MC, 39-73
Fairclough, 16, ST, 37-110
Whittingham, 15, MC, 35-53
Martin, 16, GK, 34-111
Hook, 16, DC, 29-112

A tiny squad, and the idiots are the senior members at present. And what role models they are.

In all seriousness, they do have a gem - Miller has a tremendous potential of 177 (not that he'll still be with the Sheriffs when he gets there), and his CA is the best of any player in the Blue Square South, beyond the 22 starlets and the four idiots. For this level, he is a special talent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Pre-game analysis - World beaters *WARNING!!!!! - Player naming!!!!!!!*[/B]

Typically, once the regen system was in full flow in FM07, there were around four 190+ CA players in the world at any one time, and between 20 and 35 180+ CA players. We won't find out until much later whether this is the same in FM09, but we can take a look at the initial numbers, and see if they are balanced with the regen numbers in years to come. So here are the current 190 CA players:

Cristiano Ronaldo (Man United/Portugal, 23, AM RL, 190/195). Will surely reach his peak in the next couple of seasons.
Lionel Messi (Barcelona/Argentina, 21, AM RLC, 190-195). Even younger than Ronaldo, will be in this list for years.

And that's it. So a lower number of 190 CA players to begin with, whether that's because the regen system used to create too many, or whether it is tougher to reach 190 CA in FM09 will become clear in the years to come.

[B]Number of 190+ CA players : 2
Number of 180+ CA players : 12
Number of 170+ CA players : 60

Number of 190+ PA players : 24 (excluding starlets and idiots)
Number of 180+ PA players : 142 (excluding starlets and idiots)
Number of 170+ PA players : 515 (excluding starlets and idiots)

[/B]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[B]Pre-game analysis - Best players in the Blue Square South[/B]

(excluding starlets and idiots)

Miller (Sheriffs, 16, MR, 66-177)
Main (AFC Wimbledon, 27, FC, 65-70)
Holmes (Chelmsford, 20, AMR, 64-123)
Rainford (Chelmsford, 29, MC, 64-75)
Riviere (Eastleigh, 29, AM RC, 63-70)
Turk (Newport County, 27, DM/AMC, 62-72)
Davis (AFC Wimbledon, 24, MC, 62-70)
Dudfield (Chelmsford, 28, FC, 61-69)
Sheringham (Welling, 20, ST, 60-97)
Kedwell (AFC Wimbledon, 22, ST, 60-72)

The Sheriffs' young right winger, John Miller, leads the way, and he and Holmes can expect big moves in the coming years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kipfizh = legend.

Watched the FM07 Bandits ever since week 3 or so, and loved it all the way (despite the lack of success).
Can't wait for this one!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It would be funny if all the younger players at The Sheriffs ended up learning bad habits from the Iditiots :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This looks very good Kip, hopefully will be as good as the original:thup:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Great updates, I love the detail you go into, it immerses us into the story more than any other experiment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='corinthiano']It would be funny if all the younger players at The Sheriffs ended up learning bad habits from the Iditiots :D[/quote]

Yeah that would be a superb touch. Particularly if those players then stuck around at the Sheriffs. They could gain a reputation as a breeding ground for absolute fools!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote name='corinthiano']It would be funny if all the younger players at The Sheriffs ended up learning bad habits from the Iditiots :D[/quote]

I'd love to see this happening. Idiot players all around the world. Now that will be fantastic to watch :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Right, we're set to go. Turns out the holidaying manager must be a club manager (the Netherlands Antilles managerial post does not allow a shortlist), so VW Hemme in the Belgian Second Division have an absent manager. Ah well.

I won't be holidaying the first season until tomorrow, so until then:

1) Feel free to make any predictions you see fit to make.
2) Let me know of any more pre-game analysis posts you want to see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'll be quite interested to see how the two teams adapt to losing their best players (as much as the idiots are idiots, they're still good!) after the first season. And just how both the teams progress (or don't) over time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.