Co-ownership spending

[crafty bison]

What a surprise, £10.5m is absolutely fine for Roma. So in under a week they have thrown away £18.5m by buying 50% of a player (who wouldn't be able to play for them) and then selling that share for a much smaller sum.

This happens time and time again in Serie A. This is ruining the game.

[crafty bison]

I've been thinking about this overnight and I think this actually exposes two distinct, though related, problems.

Problem 1 is a straightforward bug: Italian clubs are bidding for co-ownerships as if they were bidding for full transfers, and paying accordingly.

Problem 2 has been in the game for longer, and is that Italian clubs who own 50% of a player, and receive a bid for that 50%, aren't correctly judging the value of that 50% - i.e., they aren't asking for enough money.

This is exemplified above. First, Roma pay £29m for Gokhan Inler - a reasonable sum if they were buying the player, but in fact it's only 50%. But then, Roma receive a bid of £10.6m for that 50% only 2 days later, and they accept it, because they are incapable of correctly valuing the 50% that they own.

Thoughts?

[Champion]

This is a game breaker for whom play in Italian leagues, it should be fixed with a patch.

[Romanista.]

it indeed should be fixed. and not only are the fees unrealistic, but you can directly sign the full ownership again for 1/3 of what they paid you. ex:inter co-own my player 9.75M and then i buy the other 50% for just 3.7M

[Mitja]

can't it be 'fixed' by using in-game editor?

[NotWordsButDeeds]

it indeed should be fixed. and not only are the fees unrealistic, but you can directly sign the full ownership again for 1/3 of what they paid you. ex:inter co-own my player 9.75M and then i buy the other 50% for just 3.7M

I did that on one occassion just to see if I could. Then I decided not to do it again to preserve the game.

[Ihsaan]

I know it's not the point, but it was completely the other way on 9.2.0. I couldn't buy Hamsik for 25M, but then had an 8.5M bid accepted for half of him. I bid 8.5M for the other half the next day and got him for 17M despite bids of 25M+ being accepted. I tested this and had bids accepted for Kaka, Pirlo and Pato, so I think it was a bug that they were trying to get rid of and overshot somewhat.

[Guest]

The question has to be asked, has anyone from SI commented on this issue?

[crafty bison]

can't it be 'fixed' by using in-game editor?

How do you suggest doing that?

I tried lowering players' reputations once the bids came in, but that was too late, clubs don't pull out of deals. I considered trying moving the player to be 'fully' at the new club (e.g. trying to put Inler at Roma after they'd paid £29m for him) but it crashed the game as it thought he was on loan from Roma to Roma or something like that. The only fix that would work would simply be transferring the money back to the overpaying club as best as one can, but that would be incredibly laborious and difficult to account for each time.

A quickie patch can't be that difficult, they need to fix this aspect of the transfer module for FM10 anyway so once it's fixed surely they could put 9.3.1 out.

I have PMd Paul Collyer to alert him to this thread, and he has told me he passed it on to "QA".

[Stu Coleman]

Hi,

We are aware of the imperfections in the Italian co-ownership market and these issues are already under review.

Cheers.

[NotWordsButDeeds]

these issues are already under review.

Stu, does this mean under review for FM10 or a patch before then?

[Sporting Forever]

Normally I'd say that's going a bit far, but considering that two of the three biggest leagues in Europe have been screwed throughout every single patch, I have to agree on this occasion. Its certainly made me think twice about buying FM10.

I'm sick of these type of errors.

Last year was the registration bug that affected Spain, corrected only in February. Now this? C'mon, if this was in England the patch was already out.

I'm not thinking twice, i'm thinking 10 times if i will buy this game next year.

No excuse for this bug, when this was reported i started a new game and went on holiday half season. Guess what? In January transfer window the italian clubs were already spending like crazy.

It only took 10 minutes to discover this.....

[Dave.C43]

Stu, does this mean under review for FM10 or a patch before then?

I wouldn,t hold your breath hoping for a fix,I know Im not Still,only 7 mths or so till FM10 ships with a whole load of new(and no doubt plenty of current)bugs for US to discover.

[digsy11]

I noticed this tonight when Inter bid 50million for 50% of De Rossi, it's just stupid beyond belief.

[stevvy]

Awwwww damn, just started a new Juve save and got really into it.

If this is a bug I'll just stop playing FM09 all together.

that'd be over-reacting, given that there are other leagues, not just Italy-1 issue in 1 league doesnt mean you should stop playing the game completely

[crafty bison]

No, but a lot of us have invested time in saves based in Italy, a quick-fix patch would be a nice gesture.

[Nik_Dut]

Don't hope for another patch, mates.

SI will likely released another patch. They need your quids for next patch in the name of FM10.

So, let's pretend it is not a bug, like the no face regen thing.

[NotWordsButDeeds]

Loading an old save I have, where I'm in July 2013 on patch 9.2, I looked back at Serie A transfers for the whole game.

Only 3 co-ownerships were above £1million, the largest being only £2.4m.

Maybe those of us wanting to play in Italy will have to revert to 9.2??

[david22]

Really no patch for this? I didn't even know about that old co-ownership bug but i'd rather have that + not exploit it than see my only career game of fm09 be destroyed if I continue on with this

[david22]

And i'm never reverting back to patch 9.2 with that horrific match engine, I never want to see it again.. this sucks so much

[raffo141]

i see your point but like...39million isnt selling a player on the cheap plus i tink the logic behind it is say in my league lazio want 40million for a player russo...Inter bid 24million to co-own him as well as juve and then they would pay the rest when they can or when they need him and hes good enough havent had that situation on my game cos lazio keep rejecting it seems pretti normal in mine and im running 9.0.3

[crafty bison]

Please type in proper sentences, I can't understand the point you are making.

[Crpls]

Like me, he doesn't seem to be experiencing this problem in his game (yet, possibly.) Although SI have confirmed it does seem to be an issue. I'll happily continue along not having it, though.

[Raniel3]

Guys if you look at the transfers after the summer window 2009, you will clearly see the following:

1. There are too many Co-ownerships and too little "normal" transfers between italian teams. IRL there aren't that many co-ownership transfers, just because it is easier and more economic to loan players. There are maybe 10 co-ownership transfers every year in Serie A. In FM there are 20-40 every window. It seems like italian teams in FM rather do co-ownership with italian teams and buy the real players from foreign countries. to be fair there are some normal transfers, but they are minority instead of majority.

2. The teams buy the "wrong" players for co-ownership. In contrary to FM or even what FM-games might think, co-ownerships IRL in Italy aren't done to "test" young players, no way. It is too risky for both sides, as either one team pays for a player who doesn't become a good player, or the other team receives too little money for 50% of a promising player. And a seriosly working society doesn't like to do auctions after all.

So in real life these co-ownership transfers are almost every time done with 23-27 year old players, who didn't play that good for their team but still seem to have the potential. So the team sells 50% of the player and let's him try his luck in another team, however they still have the chance to call him back if he does well. It's like loaning out, only a bit more "I'm not sure he will be good, but I don't want to sell him completely now".

And the most important fact: IRL Co-owned players ALWAYS change teams. there are almost no co-ownership deals where the player remains at his club, however in FM it is almost every deal.

3. The teams pay TOO MUCH for Co-owning players (and not having them change teams!). IIRC correctly there has never been a co-ownership-deal above 5 million in italy, pretty sure never above 10 million at least. Teams just won't spend all their money on having 50% of a player.

4. The thing with buying 50% of a player for 30 million and then selling for 10 million one week later. Just stupid. Or another example: Napoli sell 50% of Hamsik to Inter for 15 million... 6 months later they buy the 50% back for 30 million...

So after all it is really ruining a game in Italy. The transfermarket is just bugged, the teams aren't reinforcing, they just spend too much money on co-owning players. It really makes no sense doing an Italy game

[crafty bison]

Thank you for the real-life clarifications Raniel3. It seems this part of the transfer system needs an overhaul.

[GanRob]

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?p=2930277#post2930277

Hello, I'm the italian betatester head assistant and my goal is to point out to SI what can be improved in the italian part of the game.

Thanks to all who have contributed to write here what should be done to improve the italian coownership system.

To do a realistic transfer system for a game it is really a difficult thing. Adds coownership to it and everything will blow up.

Many of the suggestion in this thread will be pointed out to SI for a review.

1. There are too many Co-ownerships and too little "normal" transfers between italian teams. IRL there aren't that many co-ownership transfers, just because it is easier and more economic to loan players. There are maybe 10 co-ownership transfers every year in Serie A. In FM there are 20-40 every window. It seems like italian teams in FM rather do co-ownership with italian teams and buy the real players from foreign countries. to be fair there are some normal transfers, but they are minority instead of majority.

Game starts with more than 200 players in coownership beetween italian teams. Cause there are 20 teams in Serie A, 22 Teams in Serie B, 18 teams for every Lega Pro Group (5 groups), there are a total of 132 teams. This means that, in average, at least one coownership deal for a team is done in reality.

In FM2009 patch 9.0.3 I have not seen more than 70 coownership deals done for year (two transfer windows) so I think we are not out from real statistics.

2. The teams buy the "wrong" players for co-ownership. In contrary to FM or even what FM-games might think, co-ownerships IRL in Italy aren't done to "test" young players, no way. It is too risky for both sides, as either one team pays for a player who doesn't become a good player, or the other team receives too little money for 50% of a promising player. And a seriosly working society doesn't like to do auctions after all.

So in real life these co-ownership transfers are almost every time done with 23-27 year old players, who didn't play that good for their team but still seem to have the potential. So the team sells 50% of the player and let's him try his luck in another team, however they still have the chance to call him back if he does well. It's like loaning out, only a bit more "I'm not sure he will be good, but I don't want to sell him completely now".

And the most important fact: IRL Co-owned players ALWAYS change teams. there are almost no co-ownership deals where the player remains at his club, however in FM it is almost every deal.

You are partially right, but you forget that many coownership deals are done as "part exchange" deals (for example team A sells a great player to Team B, B team pays it with money + the coownership of one two of their more promising players). Unfortunately this is not supported in FM and I don't think will be in the neat future.

3. The teams pay TOO MUCH for Co-owning players (and not having them change teams!). IIRC correctly there has never been a co-ownership-deal above 5 million in italy, pretty sure never above 10 million at least. Teams just won't spend all their money on having 50% of a player.

This is absolutely true. I don't think a coownership can be paid more than 2mln, but I will discuss it in the near future with my italian forum. This should really sorted out for FM2010.

4. The thing with buying 50% of a player for 30 million and then selling for 10 million one week later. Just stupid. Or another example: Napoli sell 50% of Hamsik to Inter for 15 million... 6 months later they buy the 50% back for 30 million...

This is caused by a bug. Future fee offer should not be applied to secret offer. As for now AI tends to bid for the Future Fee Callback Cause, both teams bid equals and the player remain on the same team. This should be really sorted for FM2010.

Other things that should be good sorting out should be the buy of only half of an already coowned player and the coownership loan.

Unfortunately this system is really complex to understand and implement.

[lukekarts]

This bug is crazy. The only positive is it basically redistributes wealth in the Serie A, but when the top teams are essentially spending their entire budget on nothing each season it isn't exactly a challenge to play in Italy.

Inter bought half of Kaka in my game for £81m. Haven't got a clue what will happen when this is up but I can't see AC Milan losing him as Inter's finances are now "ok".

Rosina got halfway to Florence for £15m before Fiorentina and Torino then accepted a £5.5m each way bid from Juve. Nice.

Udinese lost countless players (Zapata, Inler, Quagliarella) for about £30m a half, then moved them on for an additional £10m each for the remaining half. Glancing at the editor yesterday their bank balance was about £130m and budget about £110m. They will probably buy half of Pato for all of that next time a transfer window opens.

[david22]

Just seen Inter spend 18mil on half a promising regen player then sell the same half days later for 8mil to Bayern Munich

seriously messed up, I can bare little bugs but this is too much

[Aaron_AO]

if SI cant fix this just release an optional patch with NO co-ownership whatsoever.

should make most ppl happy cos keeps the game challenging.

[Cubelar]

lol in one game i saw Inter pay 30.5 million euro for a co-ownership of Pandev

then 3 days later Chelsea bought Pandev for a total of 15 million Euro, 7.5 million to both teams

[digsy11]

Is there anyway you can stop co-ownership via the Editor?

I've never used it myself some I'm totally clueless when it comes to editing but if the option is there can someone tell me how to do it?

[Galactus]

I don't have this issue, did you lot patch and continue a game or start a new game?

[Sir_Liam]

I've not played in Italy on FM2009, but on my game which is now in 2015, Serie A seems to be far closer than other leagues. E.g. in Spain Barcelona and Real Madrid are still the best sides, Bayern are top in Germany, Arsenal dominate in England, but in Italy Milan and Inter are currently struggling, while the likes of Napoli and Genoa have consolidated themselves as top teams. This is probably down to this bug. I do recall seeing a ridiculous co-ownership deal once where someone lost a fortune on a player.

I can see it being easy to dominate long term in Italy.

[grappa]

This is absolutely true. I don't think a coownership can be paid more than 2mln, but I will discuss it in the near future with my italian forum. This should really sorted out for FM2010.

That's not true though, even if it's too extreme in FM now. Right now Motta is on loan at Roma who will buy half his contract for 3.5mln because of an agreed fee. Three years ago Roma signed half of Pizarro for 6 mln, etcetera.

[hehehemann]

Its already been posted by an SI games employee that there will be NO further patches for FM09 as they have started on the next version.

[crafty bison]

Yes, in fact they stated it directly in the equivalent thread to this one in the bugs forum, which has prompted uproar from a few of us

[NotWordsButDeeds]

Crafty, I've went back to 9.2 - the situation on 9.3 is absolutely terrible. I just holidayed a year and the biggest c/o deals were £2.5m and £1.1m; the rest were under £1m

[Aaron_AO]

9.20 is dumb too in that you can get ibrahimovic/de rossi/zapata real cheap.

they should have just scrapped co-ownership.

[NotWordsButDeeds]

9.20 is dumb too in that you can get ibrahimovic/de rossi/zapata real cheap.

they should have just scrapped co-ownership.

Only if you want to exploit it. Not much fun in that.

[crafty bison]

I'm going back to my Southampton save

[JimmyWangYang]

Do we have 100 % confirmation that there's no patch/fix coming for this? Someone need to start an online petition or something to get SI to listen.

[richarnd]

Agreed. As bugs go, this is a pretty big one. As far as I'm concerned it not only makes Italy unplayable, but harms the realism of any game in which Italy is enabled. The borked finances of the italian clubs mean they will be much weaker players in the international transfer market, and will be much weaker opponents in european competition over the long term. The advantage of simulating the league if you are not actually playing there - increased realism - is not only absent, the opposite is the case.

A game with Italy enabled is less realistic and ultimately less enjoyable due to this bug. I suspect that the majority of FM players have Serie A enabled. This is hardly a small-time issue.

[Jops14]

Yes i always enable italy spain and england. I must admit since i got thwe game i havnt played in italy although i almost inevitably will sonner or later, and its a worrying bug, i wont be as extreme as some people and possibly not buy the game, although it is slightly frustrating to see an extremely experianced company such as SI constantly releasing buggy games, i mean they aren't EA are they??

As regards to the but, 5 years into my games, and inter keep bidding £45M to co-own Vela from roma, the only save is that roma keep rejecting the offer.