9.3.0 - has made a terrible game, even worse!

[La Furia Roja]

Look Nebu, if people get carded for calling someone else fanboys and what not, then surely cards need to be handed out for trying to incite others as well. I would pm a mod about this but there's 0 chance they would respond.

he was banned/infracted for swearing mainly, i agree with it, there was no need, someone gave an opinion on his post and he told them to ***** off!

i think this thread may be done now

[Nebu]

All I did was reply, and might I add without swearing or namecalling, to his whine post? It is hardly inciting to tell him to stop whining, he himself said he failed at the game, not like i sprung out form below the troll-hideout-bridge and called him a loser.

Drunkpunk: I simply do not understand people saying the game is becoming harder. To me it is more or less, in regards to tatics and economy, the same as it's been since 2d was introduced. Yes more features are added and the game has been made more deep, but generally, with exception perhaps being 09 with a new engine acting *a bit* differently, you've always known what to expect.

[Bigs]

I brought the game yesterday and have only played the latest patched version.

Seems ok to me. My only quibble is that the 3d match engine doesn't make a lot of sense. It looks like it is completely based on the 2d engine. This means that the ball bounces off players quite a bit and tackles involve running into each other. Looks a bit weak. This being said it is a great advance. Actually seeing the ball fly into the net is fantastic and despite the somewhat unrealistic nature of the 3d version it is a great step forward.

I am looking forward to FM2010 to see how they improve the 3d engine. Considering what I have heard about previous bugs. The latest patch seems to work like a dream.

[DanGLiverpool]

This game in my opinion has become easier than it was last year, only a bit easier, but still a bit easier.

[Sweed]

First I am glad to see Paul C post that SI won't be dumbing down the game.

Second is if so many people are now hating FM and the game is going in the tank why are there record sales?

As for tactic building being so complex I have to say I don't get it. I am from the US and almost 50 years old. I had the typical US view of "soccer", that it is boring, until I found FM in 2006. Knowing nothing about football I found the tactics forums here, specifically the TT&F (back in 2006) thread from wwfan, very helpful. Not so much for playing FM but more for learning about how real football is played.

Other than learning that "mentality" is where a player plays on the pitch I can't think of much in the TT&F that I couldn't figure our for myself if I grew up watching football. I would kill for a game like FM that was done for either American football or basketball so I could dive right into the tactics without first having to learn the game from scratch. As it is now much of what I do tactically on the pitch I do envisioning how it would work in basketball, IE tight marking=denying ball and making opponent work hard to get it, loose mark a guy that is quick so he can't get by my slower player but close him down hard when he gets the ball forcing him to make a quick decision, get out on the counter (fastbreak in basketball) if I have a speed advantage, etc. etc. These things are not hard for me to do using my knowledge of basketball with some minor tweaking. I can only imagine how much fun and easier it would be if I had grown up watching football. I am seriously jealous of all of you that can play the game that way.

If you guys want to see something that is really tedious go download some of the American text management sims. Front Office Football, Draft Day Sports Pro Basketball, DDS College Basketball, Total Pro Football (one year and done), etc. and you will be very happy with the lack of news articles, player interaction, budget problems, tedious tactic building (or lack of real tactics at all). When you come from a background of these games to FM you stand in awe:thup:

The only American game that even comes close is "Out of the Park Baseball" and it lags far behind FM in the depth of player interaction but actually out does it in keeping stats (nature of the beast baseball is a sport that can be measured quite well with many numbers and formulas), history, and player building. No regens in OOTP all new players are generated from scratch.

A game like FM is going to be complex. It can't have the depth it does and be simple, not going to happen. We as game buyers will have to make a decision as to whether it is worth the time it takes from our lives to play or not.

[Nebu]

Excellent post, Sweed and yes I imagine i'd feel quite lost if having to suddenly manage tatics in basket or American football

[meomao]

Now why can't more people discuss the game in this manner?

Although I personally find the game fairly simple, I can concede that if I were a first-time user then it would take a long, long time to get used to the game. As someone who has bought the game every year, it's more of a plug-and-play-and-experiment experience for me. Basically, checking out the new features, then fiddling with tactics, and then I'm away. I'll report bugs and upload examples, and watch the game improve as the patches arrive.

But that's what the T&TF is for. As the game gets more complex, the more instructions are needed. And the fans who have been with the game for a long time are largely satisfied - otherwise you'd have a lot more complaints on the forums.

If the game doesn't evolve it'll die. 3D was a huge advance, and this itteration was always going to take a while to bed in. 9.3.0 is a huge step up in quality IMO, and I expect FM10 will be too.

Thanks: I do not think that is right to bash developer and users that like the current state of the game! We're only here to discuss and to exchange our opinions.

I have nothing against TT&F, instead I find great that some users spend their times to develop in depth tactic guide. I've read the document and find it brlliant. And I appreciate the whole idea behind TT&F.

As I said before, difficulty would not be a bad thing and I agree that the game have to develop. I agree tht the game is not so difficult. If you manage a big team is quite easy. But it's too complex and it's not user friendly. That's my concern.

I only think that the game interface should be more intuitive, smoother and more responsive. The gameplay should be more organic and quicker. I think that a good example of balance between difficulty and good gameplay is Rome Total War.

At the end it's a managerial game, so it's not the game for casual users. Nonetheless a simpler interface would be better for everyone.

I make an example: the tactic should be descriptive and not use sliders. If you use a RoO system, it's really a pain in the arse to set the mentality for each player and a complete waste of time in terms of good game development.

I could continue with many examples. I hope that with FM10, SI will make an overhaul of the game interface.

[Nebu]

The game interface? I disagree completely. The slider-mechanic is perfect for fine-tuning the strategy just as you want it and it does NOT take much time to set every single player instructions using it, not to mention you only have to do it once - unless you want to alter the instructions obviously.

The interface is very simple and easy to use, definitely intuitive. For instance look at the absolutely amazing myriad of shortcuts to the various screens.

Only point I really agree with is load times, but I am not sure that is something easily done.

[meomao]

Second is if so many people are now hating FM and the game is going in the tank why are there record sales?

Because SI is the first company in gaming history that have find proper tools to fight piracy. Simple as that. It has taken 3 months to crack the game and it's almost a record, really a great achievement. That's the reason behind the success of FM09 in terms of sales figure.

[Rupal]

The game interface? I disagree completely. The slider-mechanic is perfect for fine-tuning the strategy just as you want it and it does NOT take much time to set every single player instructions using it, not to mention you only have to do it once - unless you want to alter the instructions obviously.

The interface is very simple and easy to use, definitely intuitive. For instance look at the absolutely amazing myriad of shortcuts to the various screens.

Only point I really agree with is load times, but I am not sure that is something easily done.

Cannot agree with you there - you seriously shouldn't have to consult a 50 page manual to get your head around the tactical interface.

PaulC has acknowledged that there is room for improvement here.

[DanGLiverpool]

I can't see the complications with the game. It is easy tactically, a bit harder than 08, but 08 was way too easy. You don't need some super duper tactic to win a game. It is simpler and probably more rewarding to use the preset tactics that are there.

[Nebu]

And I fail to see that you have to consult a 50 page manual to do so, you need knowledge of football sure, but this is a football sim game, just as with, say a flight sim, you need to have some basic knowledge, in FMs case of football tactic.

Making the interface simpler, while not dumbing down the game, would be an incredible hard task, i'd rather they spent resources on other aspects of the game than on this.

[La Furia Roja]

exactly, the 50 page guide is only if you want to go inside each tactic and find out what makes each one tick. Its not that harder concept to grasp, if people spent the time they did on here complaining about how tough it is on working their tactics 90% wouldnt have a problem!

[Rupal]

Making the interface simpler, while not dumbing down the game, would be an incredible hard task

Why? When PaulC himself has said that they are looking at doing exactly that?

[Sweed]

Because SI is the first company in gaming history that have find proper tools to fight piracy. Simple as that. It has taken 3 months to crack the game and it's almost a record, really a great achievement. That's the reason behind the success of FM09 in terms of sales figure.

Are you saying sales would be down if the game was cracked\pirated?

I guess my counter is that if the game is too complex and going in the tank why bother to d'load a crack of a game you won't play\don't like? In other words gamers are still getting FM one way or the other to play, I assume because they enjoy it.

Sales have been up every year not just this one with added complexity every year, have they not?

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding your post:):confused:

[Nebu]

Stop saying "while Paul C has said" ; rupal, that is not an argument I can use really, make your own arguments instead of just referring to him

Anyhow, because, as I already said, it is quite simple considering how deep it actually is. Keeping the advanced options, while also somehow making it easier to use is something yuo dont *just do*. Tell me, what is hard for you to do in the tatics interface? What is it you want a player/team to do that takes alot of effort using the current interface?

Also are you just talking about the tatics interface or the entire interface? Because you havent commented on, for instance, the numerous shortcuts in the game, never seen so many shortcuts in any other game tbh.

[La Furia Roja]

i dont think the piracy thing has alot to do with it, they are record sales cause the game is getting better. There are just some players that can not be please. The main topic of this thread (before we got into sales figures) was that someone thought it was too hard and all the information needed to win should be right there, the TT&F guide was written, perfectly imo, with all the information that was requied, yet it was too long. I personally dont see the point of selling the game and in the manual saying if you play this formation with these tactics you will win, it would be like having God mode in commander keen!

[Rupal]

Bottom line, Mr "gonzdons", if you dont like the game now you may never do.

But then the point made by many about the tactical interface is I think a valid one and one we have definitely taken on board.

What we wont do is dumb the game down, or add difficulty levels. For me the choice of team is your difficulty level.

Stop saying "while Paul C has said" ; rupal, that is not an argument I can use really, make your own arguments instead of just referring to him

Anyhow, because, as I already said, it is quite simple considering how deep it actually is. Keeping the advanced options, while also somehow making it easier to use is something yuo dont *just do*. Tell me, what is hard for you to do in the tatics interface?

I am quoting PaulC because he has said 1) that SI are having a serious look at the tactical interface and 2) that they won't dumb the game down. So your post suggesting that you can't do one without the other is not what the game developers believe is it? Or do you claim that you know better than they do?

I am successful enough using the tactics interface because I have taken the trouble to look at the manual. However, unless I had, I would probably in the position of someone who thinks that common sense suggests that your defenders' mentality should be defensive, for example, when that only applies on certain occasions. The interface is not that user friendly - if it was, people wouldn't be moaning about it, as quite a lot have on quite a number of threads.

Yes, there are shortcuts - so what? Most games have the number they need - that's no big deal. It's not that hard to move your mouse for goodness' sake.

[Sweed]

Cannot agree with you there - you seriously shouldn't have to consult a 50 page manual to get your head around the tactical interface.

PaulC has acknowledged that there is room for improvement here.

Of course there is always room for improvement, I think almost anyone will concede that since nothing is perfect. But some improvements will come with more shortcuts not less choices and some will complain about that.

One suggestion that I like, that I believe PaulC said he would look at, is making the "team mentality" adjust the player mentality when moved in game. IE move team mentality up one and all individual player mentalities move up one. A huge improvement that makes 11 adjustments possible with only one "click and slide". And also doesn't add any more choices to the interface.

With regard to the 50 page manual and having to read it, that is just a myth. I have to believe most that post this argument haven't even read the TT&F guide. I'll go back to my earlier post, the only thing in the TT&F manual you have to know to understand tactics is mentality=where a player lines up on the pitch relative to his position. Been so long since I've read the actual FM manual but I would think\hope that info is available there so the TT&F is not really needed at all. The rest is simply movement from that position and instructions on marking etc that I would think anyone growing up watching football would understand.

[DanGLiverpool]

I haven't read the manual. Not doing too badly.

Some people make life way too complicated for themselves.

[Rupal]

.

With regard to the 50 page manual and having to read it, that is just a myth. I have to believe most that post this argument haven't even read the TT&F guide. I'll go back to my earlier post, the only thing in the TT&F manual you have to know to understand tactics is mentality=where a player lines up on the pitch relative to his position. Been so long since I've read the actual FM manual but I would think\hope that info is available there so the TT&F is not really needed at all. The rest is simply movement from that position and instructions on marking etc that I would think anyone growing up watching football would understand.

OK well you take that argument up with wwfan and Millie then. I'm sure that they will take issue with you there. Personally, like a lot of other people, I have found the manual very helpful.

[Nebu]

I am quoting PaulC because he has said 1) that SI are having a serious look at the tactical interface and 2) that they won't dumb the game down. So your post suggesting that you can't do one without the other is not what the game developers believe is it? Or do you claim that you know better than they do?

I am successful enough using the tactics interface because I have taken the trouble to look at the manual. However, unless I had, I would probably in the position of someone who thinks that common sense suggests that your defenders' mentality should be defensive, for example, when that only applies on certain occasions. The interface is not that user friendly - if it was, people wouldn't be moaning about it, as quite a lot have on quite a number of threads.

Yes, there are shortcuts - so what? Most games have the number they need - that's no big deal. It's not that hard to move your mouse for goodness' sake.

So what? One thing that defines good interfaces is exactly just that, shortcuts.

People wouldnt moan? Oh how wrong you are, people moan about everything.

I quite honestly dont understand your example. For one thing, im more concerned with how easily you can modify various things thus the functionality and accessbility of the interface, not understanding the various tatical concepts - that info you can get from the guide or tooltips.

Your example doesnt illustrate, to me anyway, how the interface was difficult to use properly in order to achieve whichever mentality you want your defenders to use.

[Sweed]

Cannot agree with you there - you seriously shouldn't have to consult a 50 page manual to get your head around the tactical interface.

PaulC has acknowledged that there is room for improvement here.

OK well you take that argument up with wwfan and Millie then. I'm sure that they will take issue with you there. Personally, like a lot of other people, I have found the manual very helpful.

I never said it didn't help. I only said it is a myth that you HAVE to read it to be able to understand tactics in FM.

[RobbieStart]

Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

Tbh, im getting sick of people like you constantly moaning about FM, simple, if you dont like it? dont play it, shut up moaning for gods sake, i think its ace like most 'Football Manager Fans'

[Rupal]

So what? One thing that defines good interfaces is exactly just that, shortcuts.

People wouldnt moan? Oh how wrong you are, people moan about everything.

I quite honestly dont understand your example. For one thing, im more concerned with how easily you can modify various things thus the functionality and accessbility of the interface, not understanding the various tatical concepts - that info you can get from the guide or tooltips, guides etc.

Your example doesnt illustrate, to me anyway, how the interface was difficult to use properly in order to achieve whichever mentality you want your defenders to use.

The whole thing is fiddly and unless you read the manual you don't have a proper idea of how the various sliders interrelate.

Are you saying it is really clear how the overall attacking mentality slider of the team relates to the individual slider mentalities of the players and how they both relate to where you have your closing down sliders and passing sliders set for your team and your individuals?

Nobody is suggesting that it is hard to move a slider, if that's what you're on about. But which ones to move and how much to achieve a particular effect isn't so simple.

[La Furia Roja]

Tbh, im getting sick of people like you constantly moaning about FM, simple, if you dont like it? dont play it, shut up moaning for gods sake, i think its ace like most 'Football Manager Fans'

if you actually meant to quote that post and not the op than way out of line mate, if you read the thread he was against the negative opinions and loves FM how it is, be a bit more careful with your quotes

[Rupal]

I never said it didn't help. I only said it is a myth that you HAVE to read it to be able to understand tactics in FM.

It all depends what you mean by 'understand tactics' though, doesn't it?

To go back to an earlier post of yours, I don't think that the TT&F people would agree at all that the only thing you need to understand is mentality settings.

Anyway, off to watch Carling Cup final on the telly!

Have fun with the game and keep winning!

[Indi75]

This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh.

This for me has to be one of the biggest common misunderstandings of the playing populous.

It's simply not realistic on our part to enter ourselves into the gameworld and then expect everything from transfers to results to go the way they did in real life whilst blind to the fact that the team we are managing is likely also performing differently to real life.

Should I now stop my Liverpool career because we are in danger of winning the Premiership?

Should I kill off my Hoffenheim game because I'm struggling whilst the real life team is doing rather well?

I certainly wouldn't call the researchers biased morons either. I'd agree some of them need to be moderated in terms of their assessments, but there's a whole thread open for that in the data forums.

[STANNY08]

Nobody is suggesting that it is hard to move a slider, if that's what you're on about. But which ones to move and how much to achieve a particular effect isn't so simple.

It is simple though, trial and error. Tweak a slider a bit and see if it has the desired effect, if not tweak it again, then tweak another slider. And when i say see if it had the desired effect i dont mean look at the result, watch the match, look at the stats, there is tons of information available in this game that it is much easier to determine what works and what doesn't.

In FM 09, for the first time ever the assistant manager is actually very useful. He gives you tactical advice befor each match, and he updates his advice during the match. I am yet to read the TT&F guide you all speak of, someone has told me about it and sent me it in an email, but i feel i am finaly having great success with the game, because it gives so much information. I have never been in the tactics forum as i wouldnt want to stumble accross a super tactic that wins me every game as that would ruin football management sims for me, but despite the lack of any help i have taken Leeds from league one to premiership within 4 years which for me is a great as I usually settle in the championship befor getting sacked!

To the op if you are not willing to read the guide at least try and use the tools available in the game. It seems to me you are expecting to win everything with very little effort, which much like some of the points you raised is not very realistic now is it!

[Nebu]

What stanny said basically. Do you think irl managers dont test various things and see how it functions in the actual games?

And yes, I am saying the relation of those sliders is perfectly understandable, what's so hard about it?

This is a simulation people, not a "press I winzors buttan". That wasnt intended to you btw rupal, but just whiners in general.

[Mike7077]

This for me has to be one of the biggest common misunderstandings of the playing populous.

It's simply not realistic on our part to enter ourselves into the gameworld and then expect everything from transfers to results to go the way they did in real life whilst blind to the fact that the team we are managing is likely also performing differently to real life.

Should I now stop my Liverpool career because we are in danger of winning the Premiership?

Should I kill off my Hoffenheim game because I'm struggling whilst the real life team is doing rather well?

I certainly wouldn't call the researchers biased morons either. I'd agree some of them need to be moderated in terms of their assessments, but there's a whole thread open for that in the data forums.

This is an exceptional post, in my opinion, and is something I was just thinking to myself too. A lot of people start criticising the game when things don't mirror real life, even though the truly unrealistic thing is to expect the game to mirror real life exactly.

That said, I do think the game goes too far sometimes. The way Arsenal's game fitted the match engine like a glove was/is ridiculous. It's also ridiculous that it should ever be possible for Man Utd under Alex Ferguson to finish 5th in the first season and then get nowhere near the title in the second. I mean, look at the manager, look at the squad. No way would they finish under Spurs! That is simply going too far. Similarly, on FM08, Arsenal spent £60million on Lionel Messi in January! There's so much wrong with that.

[Rupal]

It is simple though, trial and error. Tweak a slider a bit and see if it has the desired effect, if not tweak it again, then tweak another slider. And when i say see if it had the desired effect i dont mean look at the result, watch the match, look at the stats, there is tons of information available in this game that it is much easier to determine what works and what doesn't.

You still would need to spend a lot of time mucking about in ignorance to decide, for example, that your wing back needed to be on mentality 11 or that closing down needed to be +3 to your DC's mentality for your MCa without looking at the manual or on the net IMO.

I suppose it's OK if you've got enough time to spend working it out. I still don't think it's very user-friendly though, all the same.

[JD nawrat]

This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

Just because he has a low rating on long shots, doesn't mean he can't score from them.

Take the video from above as an example. Now, SI rate Paul Konchesky to be at a 12 for long shots... Decent, but not great.

That like saying 'Oh, this defender has a finishing rating of 4, therefore he must never score a goal against me'.

Did you see John Terry's goal yesterday, against Wigan?

SI rate his Finishing to be at 10. He scored from outside the box.

He hasn't scored many with his feet... But to score one like that? Not very realistic... ?

Exactly.

Just because he has a low rating, it doesn't mean he can never score from a distance. =\

[Matt ex SEGA]

Where did i say there was?

His post was clearly looking to incite people, particularly the OP.

Use the report post function if you don't think the mods are going to see a specific post. Then it gets raised to all the mods.

[ToonForever]

Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

I've hated Football Manager since the whole Champ Man split, and I think that the tactics in the current version are simply ridiculous. Quite frankly, I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks, reading up on other peoples tactics (TT&F '09, etc), just to be able to play.. a GAME (and don't even get me started on the joke that is the SI instruction manual - my dead Gran, could have written something more intelligible than that drivel)! If I want to dedicate my life to football magement, then I will obtain my UEFA badges and actually become a real manager/coach.. and guess what I'd be paid for it, and wouldn't have wasted my life! FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

My point really is this - if you are a real manager you are trained to be so, and have the all the necessary "tactics" at your fingertips (IE - you have been taught them). FM '09, however, expects you to have obtained said badges already, and have intricate knowledge of the tactics of world football - which is quite frankly, a load of crap, otherwise we would all be leading real-life teams to the championships of our choosing. "Realism" - my arse!

And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course; FM is supposed to be accessible - it is not (I played Champ Man for the first time when I was 11/12, and absolutely loved it - whereas the current game makes me want to throw my mouse out the window!). FM is supposed to give ordinary armchair fans the excitement of managing their own teams - which it does not, because unless you are a top team, no tactics actually work as they should (and believe me, I have tried).

This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh. And don't get me started on the player ratings in the SPL - unrealistic does not even start to explain it.

I hate FM 2009, then - I've tried all the tactics out there, and quite frankly am not prepared to dedicate my life to what is after all, just a stupid game. I won't be buying another version of this game until the above is fixed, and I know many hundreds of ordinary "champ man" fans whom won't bother either. Well done SI, for creating one of the most disappointing games I have ever played.

Wow, I get better behavior out of my young sons, and they fight constantly. FM *is* fun, and I'm a Yank who only came to football in the last decade. I'm sorry you don't have the time to be arsed to figure it out. Reading the TT&F, developing my tactics around my players with downloadable wizard and the info therein has supplemented greatly not having my badges, tyvm.

So be a good lad, pick up your toys, climb back in the pram, and perhaps go pick up CM. You can still download diablo tactics, choose to have your very own tycoon, and basically not play real football.

If that fails, there's always FIFA09 or PES. Those make a nice diversion...

[Larker]

gonzdons, i will buy you FIFA Manager, and you can play it, win everything, every match, play 2-1-1-1-4-1 with gerrard in goal. Because its "Simpler" than FM

I will do that if you promise never to return to this forum again.

This message will self destruct in 10 minutes, or be moderated

[Johnyboy]

Fm is a highly critisced game yet highly succusfel and acclaiamed ..I know you are entitled to your opinion but i heavily disagree.Patch 9.3 has made the gamme immesnly good

[MelbVictory]

Has anyone else noticed that the latest patch has completely screwed up closing down? I can barely make it a half without having to sub both my ML and MR, and both strikers struggle to see out a game. Obvious decision - reduce closing down. This results in all my players standing off to the extent, that I've actually had an opposing defender, with a long shot rating of 4, score a screamer from thirty yards. Which of course, is "very realistic".

I've hated Football Manager since the whole Champ Man split, and I think that the tactics in the current version are simply ridiculous. Quite frankly, I feel that I shouldn't have to spend hours/days/weeks, reading up on other peoples tactics (TT&F '09, etc), just to be able to play.. a GAME (and don't even get me started on the joke that is the SI instruction manual - my dead Gran, could have written something more intelligible than that drivel)! If I want to dedicate my life to football magement, then I will obtain my UEFA badges and actually become a real manager/coach.. and guess what I'd be paid for it, and wouldn't have wasted my life! FM is after all, supposed to be fun and enjoyable, but for the vast majority of users, this game has now become and absolute pain in the arse to play!

My point really is this - if you are a real manager you are trained to be so, and have the all the necessary "tactics" at your fingertips (IE - you have been taught them). FM '09, however, expects you to have obtained said badges already, and have intricate knowledge of the tactics of world football - which is quite frankly, a load of crap, otherwise we would all be leading real-life teams to the championships of our choosing. "Realism" - my arse!

And to all you "fanboy" idiots out there, FM is supposed to be fun - which it is not, unless you have no actual life to lead of course; FM is supposed to be accessible - it is not (I played Champ Man for the first time when I was 11/12, and absolutely loved it - whereas the current game makes me want to throw my mouse out the window!). FM is supposed to give ordinary armchair fans the excitement of managing their own teams - which it does not, because unless you are a top team, no tactics actually work as they should (and believe me, I have tried).

This is not to mention the fact that the FM researchers are clearly biased morons, eg, nearly every season I start in the SPL, sees ICT finish in the top four, even though IRL, they are just off the bottom - "realistic", eh. And don't get me started on the player ratings in the SPL - unrealistic does not even start to explain it.

I hate FM 2009, then - I've tried all the tactics out there, and quite frankly am not prepared to dedicate my life to what is after all, just a stupid game. I won't be buying another version of this game until the above is fixed, and I know many hundreds of ordinary "champ man" fans whom won't bother either. Well done SI, for creating one of the most disappointing games I have ever played.

If you don't like a game normally - what would you do? " I don't like EA Golf 09, I'm gonna go bag them on their forums." Or not. So why this thread. You obviously think SI have let you down. Whereas other game makers wouldn't recieve this kind of drivel. Its a game like every other game out there and SI are just a company trying to make so money. They happen to consider what their customers think but you shouldn't feel emotionally attached to them.

What you need to do is this. Stop playing. Move on. (Or, if you actually are a fan, some constructive criticism that might help; like, "Hey SI, loved your older games, but I find FM09 too hard, tactics are too cpmplicated for me and its making me not play. probably stop me buying it in the future. They'll get X amount of such posts and may act on it.)

Otherwise, you have wasted your energies.

[matthiele]

a few people have stated that the ease and simplicity of the early cm/fm games was the reason for their success. i think this is totally wrong. with every installment of the series most people have looked for more to be added to the game to make it more realistic. the reason the early games were successful was because they were a lot more in depth than the competition and long may it reamain that way.

as far as it taking too long to make a tactic i have never had this problem either.

i have played football all my life and coached as well so maybe i know a little about football but i dont think it has been that hard to form a tactic that works and has not taken me that long to do so. i have had success as well as failure at the game and that is part of the fun.

so far 9.03 seems really good to me. sorry.

[tudge4bwfc]

Well I didn't bother reading what you have written - cos well what's the point, eh? Moron.

I have persevered with FM, because I loved Champ Man so much, and hoped that the game would eventually return to such great heights, but it has not. If you are not interested in what I have to say, then don't read it. I for one, couldn't give a hoot, what you think, when what you have said is pure drivel.

Any other constructive debate would be welcome, however.

i kind of agree in small doses of what you wrote but my friend championship manager 01/02 is free to download off the championship manager forum then download the latest patch i think its up to date from the start of this season

[Steboyuk]

I definatly agree to an major extent - Football manager is rapidly moving away from your average football fan who enjoys football, and would love to take his favourite club to glory - now its for seasoned manager simulation diehards who most of spend hours simply create a tactic, which is not how it should be.

The trouble is on FM 09 is that realistic tactics now dont work! I have had massive sucess in previous versions - Ive watched football for years and I am (IMO) very very knowledgable about the subject - I have a level 2 FA coaching badge and have managed for years, yet on this game I set up my 442, Im carlisle - my 442 should work becuase it suits the team well - we play attackingly and wide at home, whilst away i play more narrow and sometimes sacrifice my creative deep lying FC for an extra midfielder to pack the midfield - If anybody wants to see my tactic i will post it and looking at it, there is no reason why it shouldnt work - the result? I get outclassed everygame - I mean properly battered, having say 33% posession and getting carved open time and time again, I lie bottom of the league despite having a squad capable of automatic promotion.

So, I look around the tactic forum after trying some other things which fail, and here's the trick ive found - on Football manager - the trick to sucess is simply to what is succesful on this years game and then exploit it - past FM's it was simply get a pacey striker, then devise a tactic around knocking it over the top, he runs onto it and scores - it worked everytime, or how about football manager 05 - a ridiculously easy game where the key stat was Dribbling - if a player had a good dribbling stat he would play like god - I remember for Celtic i signed Mick Galloway, a non league player who was *****, but had 19 for dribbling. Played him as an attacking mid he simply picked up the ball and skinned the opposition, ending up with about 25 goals.

So whats THIS years succes - apparantly its 'globasiing your mentality' and to 'not to play too attacking' I looked at a tactic which has been hugely successful, the knap 442 or whatever - its the most ridiculous tactic ive seen - it had the team mentality as attacking, and then he hasnt altered a players mentality. Hmm.. ALL the players are attacking, Im instructing my keeper to attack - how does that work?

People tell me I should have all my players a similar mentaility, im sorry but thats bollocks - Why on earth would my goalscoring striker have a mentaility 2 notches above normal, the same as my centre half? HES A STRIKER for crying out loud - its ridiculous.

SI - dont you see whats happening here? Every year, the casual gamer falls away and cant be bothered with it anymore - when Fm 05 came out, I knew about 20 people who got it and regualrly played on it, now I know 2 people who have got it, and one of them has given up already, whilst the other just plays as Man United, gets a tactic of here and plays becuase thats the only way he can enjoy it anymore.

Soon FM is simply going to become a small group of Football management simulation nerds who spend their lives working on unrealistic tactics that work - I can just see it now, them laughing at normal FM fans with things - haha look at him, hes telling his goalkeeper to defend, haha hes telling his striker to stay upfront and attack as much as possible, what an idiot.

Ive played CM since 1993 and ever since CM 01/02 (which will never be beaten, ever) My enjoyment levels have gone down - Fm 2005 was good until I realised how easy it is, Fm 2007 had me playing quite a bit - But its all going downhill - I barely played 2008 at all and 2009 is becoming incredibly tedious and UNEJOYABLE. SORTITOUTSI

[wwfan]

Upload your tactic and I'll have a look. If that's the kind of possession percentage you are getting something is terribly wrong. Although, through reading your post, I can already see what it is.

Think of the mentality slider as existing in sections. The lowest section would be defensive, the section around defensive and normal mentalities as counter attacking, the mid range as balancing risk and reward, the high normal/low attacking section as attempting to control possession, and the higher attacking as very aggressive. Each section determines how your team will generally play, with individual sliders fine tuning positioning within an overall match strategy. Use forward runs to decide which players you want to get into attacking positions, which ones you want to operate in supporting positions, and which ones you want to stay back and focus on defence. NB for attackers, no FWRs will help the player drop deep into the hole, rather than stay back.

ONce you conceptualise things like that, I think you'll find everything much easier and the sliders will begin to make more sense.

[Steboyuk]

But the thing is, Im not!

Heres the tactic:

http://rapidshare.com/files/204662341/Blue_Army__Everton__Jan_2009_.tac.html

Note - I use it with Carlisle, not Everton. Just set it up again for you using Everton.

Well ill explain it to you before you rip me to shreads:

Team instructions:

Mentality: Attacking - Were a good side, we should be dominating games and attacking.

Creative Freedom - Were not THAT good and only have 3 creative players in the side, so its below average.

Passing style - Just above from short, but gets overruled anyway.

Tempo - just below average, I want us to build up the play, keeping possesion before hitting it to my target man's feet - Micheal Bridges in the hole, where we can attack from there.

Width - Wide: Lets stretch opposition and use the whole width of the pitch, I have two very good wingers and they should be on the ball as much as possible.

Closing Down - needs to be high or else it just dosent happen on this game.

Time wasting - rarely, were a good side and dont need to.

Defensive line - just back from average, defenders arent the quickest.

Be interesting to hear what you're saying, what from the very small amount Ive read from you, you seem a decent bloke - can explain my individual player instructions if you want also.

[wwfan]

As explained in my previous posts, your mentality settings are shot to hell. Basically, all players need to be within eight mentality notches of each other, with the chosen range determining the rough nature of the tactic (as detailed above). Without getting this right, none of the rest of the advice will help much.

Other issues:

1: No holding midfielder. Your current settings have both FBs and all midfielders running forward. When the opposition breaks your DCs will be horribly outnumbered and exposed by the massive gap between the defence and midfield (which is intesnified by your realtively low d-line given the generally high mentlaity settings of your players)

2: Likewise, your whole midfield and attack is closing down heavily, whereas your defence are sitting back. Thus, the midfield will rush forward and close down willy nilly, while the defence will back off, making that gap even wider and even more dangerous.

3: Defensively, other settings, (tackling and marking) seem to have no pattern to them. What is your logic in the settings?

4: Likewise, your atacking strategy seems confused. Why is one FB rushing forward with high creative freedom and lowish CD, whereas the other is staying deeper, has no CF and has higher CD? Given this lack of continuity throughout the team, it looks like you are trying to set individual settings for each player rather than having an overall tactical strategy you can adjust to fit certain players if required. It is just too random as it is.

It looks to me as if you have a strategy you wnat to follow, as outlined in your team instructions, but don't know how to fit players into the system. You need to work that out to achieve success. The best thing for you to do is read TT&F. I know it's long, but it will sort every problem you have out in a jiffy. I can guarantee you'll start enjoying the game again if you apply its principles.

[Steboyuk]

' Basically, all players need to be within eight mentality notches of each other'

This is where Fm is going totally wrong -

1. Thats a load of bollocks

2. How the hell do are people going to know this?

Onto your points -

1. No Holding midfielder - I do have a holding midfielder, hes the LCM, He is mentality is set to only one notch above defensive, he closes down everywhere becuase, well thats what Defensive midfielders are there to do? Their job is to break up attacks and then find a pass to a teammate to counter. Tackling on hard, becuase again thats what a defensive midifielder does, and he has a good tackling rating. His forward runs of mixed in my eyes has him only getting forward when we have the ball in very advanced areas (due to his mentality) He marks his man tight (their most attacking CM or AMC) to prevent them influencing the game, he does this quite well.

I fail to see how he is not a defensive midfielder, watching him in a game he is most certainly a defensive mid - when were on the attack he is normally just in front of the two CB's, picking up clearances. Also note i have tried him more defensive - but then he just sits right infront of the LCB doing nothing.

2. The two strikers close down often, why wouldent they? As is the same for the wingers who should be closing down whenever neccesary. Def mid closing down I have explained, what sort of Defensive mid DOSENT close down? likewise with my more attacking midfielder who closes down and irritates their defensive mid, stopping him getting on the ball and dictating the play - this is seen in real life often also. Two centre backs only close down when neccesary - this is obvious, when do you see a centre back leaving his striker to rush off and close down? dosent happen. The Fullbacks vary - my right full back has more pace and can therefore close down his winger, my left full back is slighter slower and therefore telling him to stick tight to his winger would be suicide.

3. Why on earth would they have a pattern? Different defenders use different techniques of defending - there isnt some sort of universal method of defending that every defender should use - My right back tackles hard because hes good at tackling, my left back is in between - hes not a great tackler and more of an attacking full back - i.e Marcelo, Sergio Ramos, Maicon, Rafeal for example, Two other CB's are the same as they arent particular brilliant at tackling so hard would be too risky. Onto marking - RB marks his man, the winger - as a fullback you dont mark zonally - any coach will tell a fullback that your position depends on the position of the winger, same as the left back, same as the two Cb's - man marking is a risk free policy that I and many coaches use. Cb's use tight marking, pretty much every centre back worldwide does, espeically in England where I am playing.

4. My left back is one of the best footballers in my side, and is my attacking full back - he gets forward, he runs with the ball (dribbling 17) and he picks passes and through balls. Fail to see what is wrong here. He has low closing down as already explained. My right full back is slightly different - he is more of a defensive full back, so he does not attack as much, his forward runs are limited as is he running with ball, CF is obvioulsey little becuase technically, hes not particularly brilliant.

I still fail to see why when I play with this tactic I get mauled week in week out.

[wwfan]

All I can do is show you the door, it is up to you whether you go through it.

The eight notches was worked out via a little experimentation. I'd agree that the manual doesn't help enough here. The way you have mentality working, you are basically telling your defenders that the team will be playing defensively today, whereas you are telling the attackers the team will be attacking. This leads to a lot of misplaced passes and confusion in the ranks. The team needs to be told what to do (the eight notch margin) with players given more or less attacking roles within that strategy. That's how it works.

1: Holding midfielder. He will hold with a mentality similar to that of the DCs and no FWRs. I just played a match with your tactic and he drifts way too far forward (very noticably too). With the tighter mentality system, he'll automatically be in the right position.

2: It's the fact that two lines are rushing forward, whereas one drops off, which opens a gap, not that you shouldn't be closing down high. Settings need to be closer together, with d-line raised. It is the combination that is killing things. The opposition gets behind the midfield, easily exploits this space and then BANG, goal!!

3: Players can do different things, yes, but within the confines of a tactical plan. They can't do just any old thing, which is how your tactic looks right now. It is fine to adjust things to suit your player, but without a holistic plan, it will be totally disastrous. You need to be sure of the first before trying the second.

4: See three

In a practice game with your tactic, I just suffered the worst league defeat I have ever had in 9 seasons of my current save (4-0), and this was in a match I was 4/6 favourites to win. If you continue pursuing this method, you will never get to grips with the game. You need to reconceptualise your playing methodology or you will never enjoy FM09. I assume you want to, which means first accepting that your methodology is flawed and secondly embracing a working one. Once you do, and really get it, then you'll be able to make the kind of individual adjustments you are trying to make.

[Sky]

I have yet to extensively play the game on the new patch, but i think it just rejuvenated my interest for the game after taking almost a month long break. First things i've noticed is that my defensive midfielder (or actually, MC with barrow) is now playing much better and getting decent ratings, at least at around the same as other players, and he's actually doing his job.

The ball physics seem to be much more realistic, with the ball "floating" through the air rather than whizzing around. Not sure if this was an intentional tweak, or the match engine performance was improved.

I'm using the same tactic from previous patches, a 4-3-1-2 with three center mids and an AMC, so i'm not sure about how the wingers perform just yet. I will give it a try when my two main wingers recover from their injuries.

[Steboyuk]

Well Im not having a go at you - simply the game which in my opinion is flawed.

Im sorry - but mentality either needs to be totally overhauled or simply explained - Defenders defend, striker attack - They are worlds apart, but that is football and that is how football works. How am i telling the defending my TEAM is playing defensively today? My team mentality is attacking, and surely my defenders should know that considering we are playing a wide 442 with out and out wingers and two strikers that are set to attacking he realises I want my team to attack, but as i have overuled the mentality for HIM PERSONALLY, Ive told him to defend - he is a defender, his job is to defend. How would that lead to a misplaced pass? just becuase Ive told my striker I want him to attack? Bizarre, and also surely the defender knows were attacking today due to my team talk of expect a win, and my press conference saying we wouldent be holding back? Or are these simply cosmectic and useless areas of the game (wouldent surprise me)

1. Holding mdifelder in my experience is OK where he is and I dont concede particularly many, he seems in a good position for me, rarely passing the half way line until we are in a promising position. When I play him defensively as you suggest, he literraly stands infront of the LCB when they have the ball, doing nothing in particular. Also - im sure your right btw, but if thats true then again the game have got this wrong, defensive midfielders arent fully defensive, or else they would be playing either literrally in DMC position in a THREE MAN MIDFIELD, which I dont use. From what your saying - the same mentality as a DC with no forward runs - So that should work out to him simple standing in a line with your two Cb's? due to them having exactly the same instructions.

2. Are you seriousley suggesting that midfielders and strikers should not close down? How exactly can you stop the opposition getting in behind my midfield - my defensive mid, who is tight on their most creative attacking mid has him covered, only moving off of him when neccesary, my cnetre backs are NOT dropping off - they have tight marking set to both strikers, therefore the gap isnt that big. Pushing up my defensive line would be suicide due to my Cb's having pace of 12 and 6.

3. You havent exactly made a point there have you? Im sorry - my left back is a good footballer, my right back isnt the best, more a defensive full back. WHY on earth would i tell them to play the same way? Total rubbish - for example lets say I have Luke Young - a defensive right back who is capable of playing centre half. Hes not the best on the ball but is a solid defender, and Patrice Evra on the left side. Are you seriousley telling me I should make these players play the same way? Watch them in real life - Evra plays as a wingback at the very least and is often higher up the field than the left midfielder in front of him - Luke young is totally different, he gets forward if he has to IE to provide an out ball to a central midfielder, he will very rarely commit further than the winger and certainly dosent try and beat men like evra does on the ball. Accoridng to you (or more the FM match engine), telling them to play their natural game, to the best of their abilities would be wrong, and it would unbalance my tactic, which it wouldent at all.

I agree - my tactic is awful, On football manager - however it basically mirrors your average modern day 442 and should be a decent tactic - looking at this tactic there is nothing that jumps out to you as ridiculous. The tactic makes sense - yet on FM its a disaster. Im getting 40% of possesion? Why?

Also, this was my tactic I have used in every FM up to now, and its been very sucessful for me in those versions, the players did what i told them and it was a joy to watch them - they fed my deep lying creative striker to feet, moved off him, the deep lying front man plays it out wide usually, and gets himself into the box and bang it worked. On 09 I very very rarely have a chance started by my deep lying forward which considering he is my target man is a bit strange.

[Mitja]

When I play him defensively as you suggest, he literraly stands infront of the LCB when they have the ball, doing nothing in particular.

this is exellant point, plus i've NEVER seen AI using MCd in FM09. thus i can't see no point why it is a fundamental feature of TT&F.

your discussion shows incomprehensibility of slider system, i'm sure even Mourinho wouldn't find it much easier than you do. tactically FM is years behind from what you're suggesting.

but the best thing you could do to enjoy the game again is to listen what wwfan said. don't think of mentality as 'defensive -> defend' 'attacking -> attack' instruction. players will still defend and attack no metter what. mentality effect player's riskyness, positioning, passing direction and some more things. let's hope it's replaced with more detailed but simplier instructions in future.

[baker.simon]

Alright fair enough, but if SI don't know how to play it, then how is Joe Bloggs off the street supposed to manage?? I keep going back to my opening points, but in my opinion the game used to be fun, and is now nothing but a complete slog.

Do you not maybe think that back when you was 11/12 or whatever playing CM, it was easier and more fun because you had more time on your hands? I mean, really, what do the younger generation do apart from maybe a paper-round and some homework? Maybe you find it harder to get into because you have less time due to more responsibilities, work, family etc. I find it harder to play FM these days, well marathon sessions anyway, but thats because i have to juggle a job, wife, kids, house, diy and all associated stuff. That means its harder to get into a good run of games in what little spare time i have but, after 15/16 years playing CM/FM im still as addicted as ever.