karlgwilliam

Time to lose the sliders

66 posts in this topic

Any body else think it is time to lose the sliders in the tactics, I mean how many managers would say to a full back you need to be on -5 for attacking etc etc.

I think it is about time we make the game more real, we should now give players orders maybe along the lines of telling the full backs I don't want you pushing forward today or I want you to overlap the winger at all times I mean that is how it is done in real life surely.

You wouldn't lose anything from the game as you would still need to find the right players with the right stats to play in the style you like and as I say I am sure real managers don't use sliders when setting their team up for a game.

Any one else think this could the way forward for the game?

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too time consuming to do this for all the players individually, it isnt a bad idea though

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Surely it's the same thing though. Just think of it like this: If you push your full backs "forward runs" slider up then you are saying to him " I want you to push up and overlap today"

The fact that it is done by a slider doesn't make any difference. In fact it actually give you more control. If you have the slider you have really fine control over how much he pushes up, if it was purely on manager orders we would have 2 or 3 options only.

Finally of course real managers don't use sliders, that;s because this a computer game and not real life!

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The sliders and individual instructions give enough detail to give the players these instructions IMO. Anything more detailed and it would take a ridiculous amount of time and effort to set tactics for each game. The problems are currently with the bugs in the game and players not acting in the way we instruct them to on the sliders and instructions. Hopefully these will be ironed out for patch 9.3 though so you might see an improvement.

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yeah i like your idea, it wouldnt need to be done every game oviously you could save the preferences.

If there was a huge list of commands/instructions divided down into different aspects of a players approach to the game you could then just drag them over the appropriate player and give them specific instructions. IMO, the sliders suck and i would be suprised if they were kept in fm10

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Any body else think it is time to lose the sliders in the tactics, I mean how many managers would say to a full back you need to be on -5 for attacking etc etc.

I think it is about time we make the game more real, we should now give players orders maybe along the lines of telling the full backs I don't want you pushing forward today or I want you to overlap the winger at all times I mean that is how it is done in real life surely.

You wouldn't lose anything from the game as you would still need to find the right players with the right stats to play in the style you like and as I say I am sure real managers don't use sliders when setting their team up for a game.

Any one else think this could the way forward for the game?

I play football to a fairly good level in NZ.

The only tactical instructions I ever receive is 'same as always, mate'. Or I receive some sort of instruction regarding the opposition player I am facing. I never receive in depth tactical instructions.

The team as a whole receives tactical instructions at the last training session before a match. Individual players don't really.

So how the hell do you translate that into FM, you can't. The sliders although abstract work. I can't imagine how they would get the depth of tactical instructions within FM to work without them.

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I think that a PPM style tactics sytem for individual player instructions might be the way forward. It'd be clearer than the current system and allows players the chance to know exactly what they are getting their players to do.

The instructions would be targeted for specific positions, for full-backs it might be "get forward", for central midfielders "move the ball quickly". Sliders for team instructions are fine but really aren't that useful when trying to get your players playing in a particular way due to their complexity.

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yeah i like your idea, it wouldnt need to be done every game oviously you could save the preferences.

If there was a huge list of commands/instructions divided down into different aspects of a players approach to the game you could then just drag them over the appropriate player and give them specific instructions. IMO, the sliders suck and i would be suprised if they were kept in fm10

Yeah you could save preferences but you wouldnt want your fullback overlapping every game would you? Against lesser opposition maybe but say against Christiano Ronaldo or any number of top wingers. I just dont think many people have the time or patience to go through every tiny instruction depending on who you're playing. There would be countless changes to make per game.

It sounds old-fashioned but reading the manual you get with the game helps to understand the settings of the sliders. Im not saying they're perfect but what feature of the game is? Someone will always pick holes in a certain aspect of something.

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no of course you wouldnt - i agree - but you could save instructions in much the same way you save tactics...so you could have preset instructions for each player depending on who you were playing and then if you wished tweak them slightly u could

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I think any instructions given to any particular player should show the effect it will have on that players positioning on the pitch in real time. For example, the more you slide the "mentality" setting, a yellow shaded area extends in front of the player on the pitch layout to show you how much space he will cover.

Likewise, "passing" shows the range of passing you have asked for by arrows on the pitch.

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Cheers for the reply's guys I do think the sliders are good in the game but like I have said I am sure there are only a few instructions given to players for games most weeks, I doubt someone like Frank Lampard is told to do something different every game. I know the sliders can do this but might make the game closer to the real thing with orders rather then the slider bars. Just another sense of realism I guess plus we fiddle with the sliders most times in a game so not much harder to tick another instruction.

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It is the same thing just in a different format.

In real life a manger will say get down the wing whenever cross the ball in the danger area and that sort of stuff so you set him to do that by using your head and selecting the correct settings.

If there was settings like what you said and no sliders it would be too easy don't you think?

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Well, the problem is how you would for example adjust how deep you want your defensive midfielder to drop, how far your target man should stay from your other striker, how wide you want your wingers to go from the inner midfielder, how high up the pitch you want a specific player to start putting pressure on the opposition, and so on, without the sliders. This is stuff that real managers deal with and fine-tune during training, not in terms of a tactical instruction on match-day, so maybe that's where it should be moved in FM as well. Just changing the tactics to different "orders" however limits you a lot compared to the current system with very tweakable mentalities, closing down and other slider instructions.

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The sliders are just too unrealistic

As said before, no manager asks a player to player 18 attacking or 2 creative freedom

I play football for many years now and what sometimes the managers say is like "today, the full back is slow, try to win him with pace" or "try to help the midfield whenever you can"

I do agree with PPM playing a more important role in FM. Sliders should go for good. If it's realism you really want.

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you have some good points I do agree with you. I think the sliders are here for a long time i think though

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Well, the problem is how you would for example adjust how deep you want your defensive midfielder to drop, how far your target man should stay from your other striker, how wide you want your wingers to go from the inner midfielder, how high up the pitch you want a specific player to start putting pressure on the opposition, and so on, without the sliders. This is stuff that real managers deal with and fine-tune during training, not in terms of a tactical instruction on match-day, so maybe that's where it should be moved in FM as well. Just changing the tactics to different "orders" however limits you a lot compared to the current system with very tweakable mentalities, closing down and other slider instructions.

This is exactly what I was getting at. We work on tactical things in training until we go blue in the face and can do them in our sleep. Its impossible to replicate this on FM though IMO.

Also when we play we start the game at 1,000 miles an hour. If we get a goal we push for a second. If we get that we automatically drop back our mentalities, drop the pace and play keep ball. In FM you have to tell the players to do that, IRL its an automatic thing because thats what we have discussed at training. This is also impossible to replicate as well, as many people wouldn't like that lack of control over tactics this affords. But IMO it would be more realistic.

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Yes, and I agree it would be hard to trade the sliders for something different. But for the sake of realism this should be done!

Would be really nice if SI decided to make this change for FM 2010.

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Surely tho with the sliders you lose something from the game, With the sliders if you say to a full back no forward runs no long shots then no matter what his stats he will do as he is told!!. Without sliders you would be under more pressure to find the right player to fit the style you want to play.

I manage a sunday league side and even if i tell a player don't push forward if he doesn't want to play like that he will go forward therefore i would need to change system or try to find a player that will do as i say. Hope that makes sense. You would need some options like the stay back for set plays and so on

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I guess a better way of saying it is who would ever tell a player no long shots today no forward runs and don't be creative of course you might say don't push forward today but a player will play the game as he see's it and if it isn't good enough then you need a better player.

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Surely tho with the sliders you lose something from the game, With the sliders if you say to a full back no forward runs no long shots then no matter what his stats he will do as he is told!!. Without sliders you would be under more pressure to find the right player to fit the style you want to play.

I manage a sunday league side and even if i tell a player don't push forward if he doesn't want to play like that he will go forward therefore i would need to change system or try to find a player that will do as i say. Hope that makes sense. You would need some options like the stay back for set plays and so on

Sometimes they still don't do as they are told, AFAIK, even with the sliders.

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We don't necessarily need to replace the sliders with something else.

Maybe add a "Simple" tab in the Tactics screen, that have all the basic instructions like "Quick passing" or "Hold onto lead". If you turn "quick passing" on, it will reduce the Passing style slider a few notches and increase the Tempo slider a few notches (no need to know exactly how many). The "Hold onto lead" command will max out the Time Wasting slider and reduce the Tempo slider to 1.

The sliders would be in the "Advanced" tab and you can use it to tweak more if you feel like it.

The same can apply to Player Instructions, e.g. giving a winger a "Cut in" command will adjust his Crossing, Through Ball, and Passing Style sliders automatically to reflect this. Similarly, giving a "Mark Player X Tightly" command to a centre back will make his Marking to Player X and Tight Marking Yes.

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I guess a better way of saying it is who would ever tell a player no long shots today no forward runs and don't be creative of course you might say don't push forward today but a player will play the game as he see's it and if it isn't good enough then you need a better player.

It is long shots rarely though and not never and it is the same with all the other things like that. Also creative freedom determines how much you want your players to listen to your instructions. If you want a rigid formation and tactics you lower it and and you want them to just make their own decisions what to do then you raise it.

They still use their own mind (well artifical mind :p) to make the right call.

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I guess then we should get rid of them instructions as you would never say to anyone can you rarely have long shots today please. I just think we should make the game more around a player stats then sliders telling him what to do with every little thing

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You don't really need to tell each player every little thing you want them to do. Leave them all at default and give them a bit more creative freedom and they will play naturally.

Unless you're managing in the lower league in which case yes you need to instruct your players exactly how you want them to play, otherwise they'll just mess up the game.

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If you can do just fine with the "Simple" instructions though, what's the point of ever going into the "Advanced" ones? It sounds like a recipe for either the simple instructions not being competitive enough in the ME for your team to be as successful as it should, or the advanced settings making your team unrealistically overpowered. It's sort of a tough thing to balance seeing how top teams do play under rather strict tactical models, but a computer game player won't necessarily want to set one up (yet wants to be equally successful in the game). How much realism do you sacrifice for the purpose of making the game accessible? Sliders probably aren't the answer considering the amount of people who can't come to terms with them, but a different approach that doesn't offer the same tactical freedom is essentially a step back.

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I guess then we should get rid of them instructions as you would never say to anyone can you rarely have long shots today please. I just think we should make the game more around a player stats then sliders telling him what to do with every little thing

But surely that happens in reality.

"Their keeper is dodgy and the conditions are going to be bad. I want you to test him with long shots and crosses often."

"Keep possession, be patient and don't take speculative long range shots."

I am sure some managers would issue those instructions from time to time.

Basically if you don't to use them in FM all you do is leave the slider in the middle and if you want them to make their own decisions more often give them high creative freedom.

You don't have to use the sliders to control every little thing.

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If you can do just fine with the "Simple" instructions though, what's the point of ever going into the "Advanced" ones? It sounds like a recipe for either the simple instructions not being competitive enough in the ME for your team to be as successful as it should, or the advanced settings making your team unrealistically overpowered.

The "Simple" instructions would be just shortcuts to preset slider tweaks, just like the Set To drop down menu, so it's basically a more accessible tactics setting alternative. At the end of the day, people will still go to the Tactics forum to download a working tactic, anyway, but having "Simple" instructions will at least make Tactics more intuitive to some.

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I play football to a fairly good level in NZ.

The only tactical instructions I ever receive is 'same as always, mate'. Or I receive some sort of instruction regarding the opposition player I am facing. I never receive in depth tactical instructions.

The team as a whole receives tactical instructions at the last training session before a match. Individual players don't really.

So how the hell do you translate that into FM, you can't. The sliders although abstract work. I can't imagine how they would get the depth of tactical instructions within FM to work without them.

thats actually given me a good idea... training atm is pretty bland to say the least maybe you could practice tactics or learn new tactics in training and practice them and get feedback from your assistant? for example Joe Bloggs isnt quite up to standard on delivering hes freekicks or Joe Bloggs jr was looking very tired after 30 minutes on the wing. what you guys think of that?

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thats actually given me a good idea... training atm is pretty bland to say the least maybe you could practice tactics or learn new tactics in training and practice them and get feedback from your assistant? for example Joe Bloggs isnt quite up to standard on delivering hes freekicks or Joe Bloggs jr was looking very tired after 30 minutes on the wing. what you guys think of that?

Yeah, personally I think training needs more improvement than tactics. A more clear link between the 2 would be a good improvement I think. You try and drill into the players what you want them to do in terms of tactics for their next match and also set pieces and so on.

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Yeah, personally I think training needs more improvement than tactics. A more clear link between the 2 would be a good improvement I think. You try and drill into the players what you want them to do in terms of tactics for their next match and also set pieces and so on.

yeh training is just a bunch of not very intricate sliders... which dont give you much feedback if your doing the right thing or not. say in training if you had practice matches which im sure they do in real life and you could split the first team into 2 teams and then spread some youth in between those 2 teams and have a training match. also the harder you train the players the faster they achieve their potential ability but the more tired they get! so this would mean people would train harder in the offseason which fondly enough is what they do. also id like to see players come back from holidays "unfit" which is usually the case in real life

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To be honest, I really can't see the sliders lasting much longer.

They are so infuriatingly vague that it's all just a matter of trial and error, even for seasoned managers. I did notice PaulC speak about them (sliders) on Hammer1000's thread recently, and it appeared that SI are at least open to the idea of exploring new avenues as far as tactics are concerned.

With the current set-up, when calculated; the different amount of tactical (slider) combinations available comes to a TWENTY FIVE BILLION, SIX HUNDRED MILLION!!!

And that is BEFORE we decide whether to counter-attack, tight mark, play offside, focus our passing etc etc etc......

Read that number again: 25,600,000,000

How in the name of God are we supposed to tell the difference between 18,190,567,333 and 18,190,567,334??? :confused:

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As it turns out, when I add the other four sliders in, the number comes to:

TWO TRILLION, SEVENTY THREE BILLION AND SIX HUNDRED MILLION

SI: Need to wise up. :thup:

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I don't mind sliders at all but the number of clicks on some is far too much. I do agree with the OP about how unrealistic it feels to tell a player to for example, play a -4 Normal mentality etc. I know it's a game, I just don't like the way this is set up.

On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing a few more sliders added and the number of clicks on others reduced. As long as there was a "Mixed" setting on the new sliders, then it would be up to the individual to play with it or not.

Imo, the game appears to be in need of a Defending Width slider as well as the Attacking Width slider we already have which is simply called Width.

But also, there ought to be a way to tell one winger to stay narrow, and the other winger to stay wide, for example. So individual instructions sliders for this could be -

Player width

Narrow/Mixed/Wide

Player movement with ball

Cut in/Mixed/Go wide

Also -

Crossing Style

To Feet/Mixed/To Head

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Sorry, that number is actually ONLY: 1 382 400 000 000, or something daft like that. (some of them only have 2 options, as if it matters)

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Wee Aja, you know your probablility and permutations. ;)

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Sorry, that number is actually ONLY: 1 382 400 000 000, or something daft like that. (some of them only have 2 options, as if it matters)

dont worry mate we get the point. and i agree with you its quite mind numbing

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dont worry mate we get the point. and i agree with you its quite mind numbing

There are "Only" over a TRILLION different tactical set-ups available to us. (Probably closer to 2 Trillion). Incredible.

I have a feeling Prof. Hawking would rock at FM :thup:

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There are "Only" over a TRILLION different tactical set-ups available to us. (Probably closer to 2 Trillion). Incredible.

I have a feeling Prof. Hawking would rock at FM :thup:

yeh there has to be a better way did you read my idea further up in this thread? if so what did ya think?

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yeh there has to be a better way did you read my idea further up in this thread? if so what did ya think?

I'd like to see next opposition-specific training:

Your next team are noted to be weak down the right wing. Ok, so spend a couple of days leading up the the match practising "Right wing" focus passing. This is exactly what teams do in real life, and couldn't be that hard to implement into FM. would certainly add a very welcome addition of realism.

An and let's be honest here: despite FM being the digital incarnation of heroin, it's not in the slightest bit realistic.

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Any body else think it is time to lose the sliders in the tactics, I mean how many managers would say to a full back you need to be on -5 for attacking etc etc.

I think it is about time we make the game more real, we should now give players orders maybe along the lines of telling the full backs I don't want you pushing forward today or I want you to overlap the winger at all times I mean that is how it is done in real life surely.

Managers might not say I want you to play on mentality 18. But in real life the mangers would say "I want you to play 5 yards further forward". So yes it can be that detailed.

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Managers might not say I want you to play on mentality 18. But in real life the mangers would say "I want you to play 5 yards further forward". So yes it can be that detailed.

It's still not realistic when conveying what you want a player to do by using sliders.

I think there should be basic settings accompanied with individual and opposition instructions.

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It's still not realistic when conveying what you want a player to do by using sliders.

I think there should be basic settings accompanied with individual and opposition instructions.

Yeah, I agree it is not realistic but I get the impression that karlgwilliam is taking it to the extreme.

This post explains a bit of what I mean:

http://www.community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=2466314&postcount=26.

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I'd like to see next opposition-specific training:

Your next team are noted to be weak down the right wing. Ok, so spend a couple of days leading up the the match practising "Right wing" focus passing. This is exactly what teams do in real life, and couldn't be that hard to implement into FM. would certainly add a very welcome addition of realism.

An and let's be honest here: despite FM being the digital incarnation of heroin, it's not in the slightest bit realistic.

I think something like this could be a great addition if done properly. That way your backroom staff will have more importance as well. For example: you depend on your scout to tell you about your next opposition. If the scout knows his stuff, he'll give you a good indicator of what you need to work on in order to break down the opponent. Good coaches would then help by making the preparation more effective.

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If SI wants to keep the sliders (which I think they shouldn't...) maybe reducing them from a range of 1-20 to a range of 1-3 or 1-5, like the forward runs or long shots sliders.

I too agree that an option of width in the individual player tactics would be a great add for the game. Close-Normal-Wide. Something like that. Because, for example, there are some times that the manager wants to tighten their defence but keep the forward wingers open for a chance of counter attack.

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Guys good disscussion I wouldn't want it taken to the extreme but i just think maybe a new more realistic why of telling players what you want them to do is needed. The sliders do it now but as i say real managers don't use sliders if we want the game to be realistic and we like to be able to chat to players then that is how the tactics should be done too. I think the training is a real good point i liked it when you could select what type of training they did i.e pig in middle that sort of thing can't remember what version that was now i think 4

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There are some times that the manager wants to tighten their defence but keep the forward wingers open for a chance of counter attack.

Yeah, totally agree with this point here :thup:

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I think the biggest problem is you just don't know what effect your tweaking with the sliders does to your tactics. For example, if I tell my winger to run with the ball and cross often I don't know for sure it's making any difference, positively or negatively. SI have made a step in the right direction with the ass.man feedback section but that's far too vague and bland at the moment to be of any real use.

I think there should be a visual feedback page instead that shows your instructions playing out in relation to how the game is going (i.e. space available overlapped with winger movement).

It's hard to explain what I mean, maybe this would just make it too complicated.

However, I DEFINITELY agree the sliders need reducing.... 20 possibilities is too much. Make it a maximum of 5 or 6 (Minimal, low, occasionally, half and half, often, all the time). But don't have it as sliders/numbers.... have it as words like I just typed out.

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I like the sliders and hope they stay. It's not realistic but it gives the element of micro-management control that I enjoy.

I just want more information on how they affect your team rather than it needing so much guesswork.

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Any body else think it is time to lose the sliders in the tactics, I mean how many managers would say to a full back you need to be on -5 for attacking etc etc.

I think it is about time we make the game more real, we should now give players orders maybe along the lines of telling the full backs I don't want you pushing forward today or I want you to overlap the winger at all times I mean that is how it is done in real life surely.

You wouldn't lose anything from the game as you would still need to find the right players with the right stats to play in the style you like and as I say I am sure real managers don't use sliders when setting their team up for a game.

Any one else think this could the way forward for the game?

This is an excellently plagarised post... you even used the same thread title...

Where did you get this from then?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=73229

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This is an excellently plagarised post... you even used the same thread title...

Where did you get this from then?

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=73229

Thats a pretty bad assumption to make, maybe he doesnt read the part of the forum you posted in, I'm sure you aren't the only person to have the OP's idea ;)

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