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DJ68Alkmaar

too few shots on goal - the proof

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I find it rather strange that more people haven't actually complained about the unrealistically low number of shots on goal in FM2009. Ever since CM00/01 I've been of the opinion that SI has never really got this part of the game engine quite right, but I don't ever recall things being quite this bad. I'm not going to waste any time providing stats of how few shots on goal there have been in the game I'm currently playing......you will all have your own experience to draw on. But I'm sure most will agree that it's an extremely rare occurence when both teams manage to have at least 10 shots on goal.....in many games there might only be 7 or 8 from the dominant side. Instead, I've been doing a bit of research to prove the point.

Taking last weekend's games from the English Premiership, Serie A and the Bundesliga:

Premiership - the home team had an average of 17.9 shots on goal (5.5 on target) and the away team had 10.3 shots (2.7 on target)

Serie A - the home team had an average of 15.3 shots on goal (6.5 on target) and the away team had 15.8 shots (5.6 on target)

Bundesliga - the home team had an average of 18.1 shots on goal (7.2 on target) and the away team had 12.1 shots (4.3 on target)

Granted, it's only one weekend, but I've been checking for a while now without taking notes and this weekend was no exception.

FM2009 is significantly out of synch with "real life" and I'm afraid it's really spoiling things for me. Games are often dull affairs and for the first time in a long time I find myself asking the same question: why am I doing this ?! This is not even close to reality !

As I said, I think this has always been a slight problem with CM/FM. As for the reason why it has got worse in this version.....I'm not totally sure, but I have noticed that tackles per game by certain players have gone through the roof. League leaders in FM2007 (the closest to a good game engine SI have got to IMO) had about 5 tackles a game. In this version it's more like 9.....in so many games I've seen central defenders winning 10 tackles out of 11 or something like that. No wonder people are complaining about too many long shots ! The balancing between defenders and forwards is out of synch.......defences are on top.

Ok, that's my gripe. Thanks for getting this far.......unfortunately time is precious these days and I can't spend too much time with this game anymore. I was going to stay quiet and just quietly give up on FM and move on but frankly I find it quite annoying that SI keep taking one step forward and another one back. If they are really committed to providing a realistic simulation then this is bread and butter stuff they really should be getting right by now. No excuses.

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I don't get you. I DO get around 10-20 shots on goal, 5-8 of which are on target.

Same here, I usually get around 8-12 shots per game

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Do you have any cross-referencing stats from your FM 09 save? Take a weekend in the Premier League from your game and post the results so we can compare.

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Try and mix up your team strategy?

More attacking teams with the right blend of players will get more shots away

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I'm not going to waste any time providing stats of how few shots on goal there have been in the game I'm currently playing

... and therein lies your problem. To be honest I haven't noticed anything wrong with the shots on goal. Admittedly there were too many on FM08 though.

Even if you do provide stats, people will always be able to say "it's your tactics".

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But I do agree that I'm starting lose my patience and enthusiasm for the game because I feel cheated of my efforts. I've said this a few times, but I will say it again.

WHAT'S up with stupid goal post!!!!

Every time I see the ball hitting the post or easy shots exactly delivered to the keeper, which is many many times every game, I feel that much more cheated. Looks like I won't be buying FM2010 in such a hurry then....

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But I do agree that I'm starting lose my patience and enthusiasm for the game because I feel cheated of my efforts. I've said this a few times, but I will say it again.

WHAT'S up with stupid goal post!!!!

Every time I see the ball hitting the post or easy shots exactly delivered to the keeper, which is many many times every game, I feel that much more cheated. Looks like I won't be buying FM2010 in such a hurry then....

How many shots against post and bar are you getting in a season?

Do you have any pkms that show an unrealistic amount in a game?

If so let us know. Thanks.

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Do you have any cross-referencing stats from your FM 09 save? Take a weekend in the Premier League from your game and post the results so we can compare.

I'll try and do that Stokes 83.....thanks for showing interest. As for the others, I'm not simply interested in how many shots MY team has on goal. I'm looking at the bigger picture....how my opponent plays, how other teams in the division are performing ( for the sake of realism ), and the possible connection with long shots people have been complaining about, successful tackle rates etc and whether there are balancing issues between defenders and forwards and so on. I'm not complaining because MY team is performing badly....it's not. But most of the matches I've played and other matches I've monitored within the same division, Champions League matches, internationals etc have been unrealistically short of shots on goal.

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I find it rather strange that more people haven't actually complained about the unrealistically low number of shots on goal in FM2009.

It's probably because there isn't that much of a problem. I agree with other posters that there is MAYBE a few too many shots hitting the bar/post, but not enough to ruin the game.

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Ok, playing in Serie A in my game, the number of shots on goal for the last weekend were (and forgive me for not listing the teams but I'm kind of in a hurry.....):

7 v 7

13 v 8

7 v 3

13 v 7

15 v 2

9 v 8

7 v 6

12 v 5

4 v 4

5 v 7

In no match did both sides manage to get at least 10 shots on goal. That's a rarity on any FM weekend. But last weekend in the real world, out of 29 matches in the Premiership, Serie A and the Bundesliga in all but 8 of the matches, BOTH teams had at least 10 shots on goal. Do you see my point ? This is not simply about my team or my tactics.......I'm interested in the realism of FM as a whole. In the real Serie A, the average number of shots per game was 15.3 v 15.8.

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it was a problem i was having with lower teams but playing as tottenham in the prem im getting 15-20 every game

my problem is that not enough are going in!

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Oh please stop this. Last year we had 30 shots on goal each match.. and finally its realistic in Fm09 - and you still complain !? :(

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i have to agree with dj68alkmaar, but would also like to add that dispite the fact that i have tried setting ALL my players to NO long shots, still at least half of my teams shots are from long range. and for some reason it dont make any differance to the amount of shots i have weather i put all players to long shots often or not at all.

also can someone please check on the amount of goals score per weekend the same way that the shots states have been put on here - real life v FM life. as i keep seing news reports something like this - another day in the prem has seen 14 teams in action with 12 goals scored. i know that this does happen, it just seems to be happening at around about 1 goal per team ish MOST of the time.

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Oh please stop this. Last year we had 30 shots on goal each match.. and finally its realistic in Fm09 - and you still complain !? :(

It's not realistic. That's why I've posted. I've provided enough evidence to support my argument and to at least have a debate about it. Where is yours to suggest that FM is realistic in this regard ? You've not responded to the figures which clearly illustrate my complaint. If you're not smart enough to analyse the evidence (which is sufficient to reveal a discrepancy between the real world and FM's version of it) then you've got the game you deserve. Enjoy it.......

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How many shots against post and bar are you getting in a season?

Do you have any pkms that show an unrealistic amount in a game?

If so let us know. Thanks.

i think i have had 30 plus shots hitting the bar/post against me in 1 season, i havent seen that many in my entire life of going to football matches every weekend

i play as st johnstone and they have a striker called andy jackson and he currently has 16 for finishing yet misses the target most of the time

does anyone have problems with :

1 - the goalie diving about half an inch

2 - players ball watching, like my player is about 1cm away from the ball yet the opposition player miles away gets to it first

sorry to go a wee bit off topic, just wondered if it was just me or not lol

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There's enough shots, its long shots that are the problem, i'd say 85% of shots both by my team AND the ai come from miles outside the box, even if they have better options on.

That and the woodwork, I agree, every match someone hits the post or crossbar at least twice. I've had two games where my team has hit the crossbar 8 times.

Seriously, it doesn't take long to notice these things. Do SI have people just playing through seasons normally as part of their testing or not?

@ Jim - yes and yes. Goalkeepers are trapped in some kind of glass tube that stops them from moving left and right, and I've seen my goalkeeper watch a ball trickle to a stop on the 6 yard box while the striker runs from the half way line to tap it in.

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Couple of points. Firstly, we dont add blocked shots to the total if they are blocked early. This is because it is hard to judge them as on or off target. I have no idea if the stats in the newspapers IRL include these.

Secondly, about the woodwork. I am pretty confident its physically working as it should, however there are 2 possible factors at play 1) Some players may be placing their shots in the corner which increases the chance of hitting the post and 2) the woodwork wasnt hit enough in pre FM2009 match engines, due to a limited ball physics model

Paul

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If i hadn't have uninstalled Paul i would have uploaded some more pkms - i think its related to the long shots issue, but the woodwork is hit way, way too often.

And no, shots that are blocked are not counted in newspapers or the bbc stats, according to a friend of mine who works for the AP.

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When the number of shots hitting the woodwork is greater than the number of goals being scored somethin aint right :(

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When the number of shots hitting the woodwork is greater than the number of goals being scored somethin aint right :(

I watch matches almost constantly day to day as part of working on this and I haven't seen that at all. It happens, of course, as it does in real life, but it never feels excessive. Its quite a mystery this to be honest......

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I disagree with the topic starter.. Actually, this is the best thing in fm09 (obviously is only my opinion), because in 2008 the number of shots (and i mean dangerous shots) was far too high.

In fm 2009, the shots showed in the match summary are maybe a little less than IRL, but only because IRL every shot (even if it is a shot missing by a mile, or a sort of pass to the keeper) is taken into account.

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Maybe my players are playing too much golf & are aiming for the white "stick" out of habit! BTW,is a shot that hits woodwork on or off target?

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Good job posting this thread DJ68Alkmaar, i have noticed this problem with the small number of shots since the demo, and it's was the same as last year when i posted about the possesion problem (as in smaller teams keeping the ball more than stronger teams), and the replies were similar to the one in this thread (eventhough i could prove them wrong showing irl stats), but that problem is still in the game this year though.

One more thing i noticed is the distance covered, as only wingers or fullbacks run more then 10km per match. While other positions like DM's that irl are the ones the run the most, they usually only cover 8km per match, while irl they usually cover 11km or even more. And CD's they usually cover 7km in FM, while irl they cover around 9km.

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does anyone have problems with :

1 - the goalie diving about half an inch

2 - players ball watching, like my player is about 1cm away from the ball yet the opposition player miles away gets to it first

sorry to go a wee bit off topic, just wondered if it was just me or not lol

Yes and yes :D

Especially the second one, they sometimes just stand almost on the ball vibrating even with close down set to whole pitch while an opposing player charges from 30 yards away and wins the ball.

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I fully agree that there are too few shots in the game. And before you ask - no I'mnot doing badly, I'm doing well.

However, here's some shot statistics from my save.

11 v 15 (that one looks good)

6 v 13

7 v 2 (come on..)

14 v 3 (still the scoreline is 1-2)

6 v 6

4 v 16 (annoying I only managed to draw 2-2)

4-13 (score: 0-4)

7 v 7

16 v 7

13 v 4

4 v 11

11 v 4

9 v 2 (ending 1-1)

12 v 4

6 v 11

9 v 4

5 v 15

8 v 7

12 v 9

19 v 3 (was winning that one 5-0)

4 v 11

14 v 3

10 v 11

Here's the Bundesliga shots table after 14 games this season

Pos Mannschaft Played. Shots

1. 1899 Hoffenheim 14 265

2. Bayern München 14 263

3. Werder Bremen 14 246

4. VfB Stuttgart 14 242

5. Bayer Leverkusen 14 238

6. Bor. Dortmund 14 232

7. VfL Bochum 14 209

8. VfL Wolfsburg 14 208

9. Hamburger SV 14 202

10. Schalke 04 14 201

11. Karlsruher SC 14 186

12. Arminia Bielefeld 14 179

13. Hannover 96 14 173

14. Eintracht Frankfurt 14 172

15. Hertha BSC 14 165

16. Bor. M'Gladbach 14 161

17. 1. FC Köln 14 159

18. Energie Cottbus 14 147

Even the worst team (cottbus averages more than 10 shots a game, leaders Hoffenheim and FC Bayern are close to an average of 20 shots, FC Bayern had 33 shots against Cottbus this weekend - On FM I can't get 30 against a really bad non-league team even when fielding my best squad.

On my save, Bremen (2nd place have had 141 shots in 15 games so far), Nürnberg (17th) a massive 89.

something surely can't be right if the runner-up in game has less shots after 15 gamess than the worst team IRL after 14.

Also, there are too few goals - 343 in 140 games - 2,45 in average. While that does not seem too bad (can't expect more than 3 goals a game as it's been last week here), some more shots would lift that stat as well. But please make close range efforts more likely - or rather make marking and tackling less effective..

Btw. IRL we've seen 390 goals in 126 matches, averagin 3,09 per match (that's really quite high but an average of around 3 is the norm, except in Serie A :p)

Cheers,

Richard

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Thank you LeoVieira and Richard Bieritarier......There was a time when this forum was a place for debate but it seems like those days have gone. Your stats Richard seem to mirror mine.....so it's not simply my game after all. But not enough people seem to care about the realism issue, even when the stats are staring them in the face. I was initially encouraged to see PC join in but it seems that woodwork is a more pressing concern.....Anyway, it's good to see another Bundesliga fan......can't believe Hoffenheim this season !

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Here is the stats i got from one weekend's games from FM and RL (Not including blocked shots).

La liga - FM - Home Team: 10.4 - Away Team: 7.6; RL - Home Team: 14.4 - Away Team: 9

Italia Serie A - FM - Home Team: 9 - Away Team: 7.8; RL - Home Team: 13.1 - Away Team: 12.2

German Bundesliga - FM - Home Team: 9.3 - Away Team: 8.2; RL - Home Team: 14.3 - Away Team: 10.1

English Premier League - FM - Home Team: 11 - Away Team: 5.7; RL - Home Team: 14.3 - Away Team: 7.7

As you can see, there's clearly more shots on goal irl that in the game.

A question for the devs - Wouldn't it be the case to make the in game clock run as a rl clock? Maybe be this could be a solution for the low number of shots on goal and players covering less distance than irl. But then there's the number of tackles problem that the op mentioned, maybe that's because players hold the ball too much instead of passing?

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Well, I'm bound to Bundesliga due to my origin :D

Like to run Ipswich as well as I used to live there for some time.

Btw., yea Hoffenheim is brilliant, but tbf. I predicted they will battle for international football before the season. Hopp gives them the mones and Rangnick always knew how to form a team when he's not put under constant pressure to play a player that has been signed although he didn't want him (like it was at Schalke some years back). I remember him getting Ulm promoted to top tier football and after he left tht team went down to 5th or even sixth level in no time.

Anyways, btt: Probably all the stuff we're seeing also has to do with match speed as well. In my games mostly the player trying most passes plays around 40 of them. with strikers down to 10 or 15 at most (unless you face a really weak team). Unfortunately I have no stats to back that, but seeing that in almost avery match I've read stats of there was a player with at least 70 ball contacts (mostly 80 or more) I would imagine players would try more passes in general. May have to do with the fact that especially midfielders are stalling and looking for a pass very often (defenders as well), which again may come down to something I notice which is that marking seems to be far to effective to me.

I'm offline for tonight. Got to get up at 8 tomorrow morning.

Cheers,

Richard

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Here is the stats i got from one weekend's games from FM and RL (Not including blocked shots).

La liga - FM - Home Team: 10.4 - Away Team: 7.6; RL - Home Team: 14.4 - Away Team: 9

Italia Serie A - FM - Home Team: 9 - Away Team: 7.8; RL - Home Team: 13.1 - Away Team: 12.2

German Bundesliga - FM - Home Team: 9.3 - Away Team: 8.2; RL - Home Team: 14.3 - Away Team: 10.1

English Premier League - FM - Home Team: 11 - Away Team: 5.7; RL - Home Team: 14.3 - Away Team: 7.7

As you can see, there's clearly more shots on goal irl that in the game.

A question for the devs - Wouldn't it be the case to make the in game clock run as a rl clock? Maybe be this could be a solution for the low number of shots on goal and players covering less distance than irl. But then there's the number of tackles problem that the op mentioned, maybe that's because players hold the ball too much instead of passing?

It's consistently about 3-5 off per team. Interesting. As Paul said, it might be that blocked shots are not counted. However, it might also be that there are not quite enough missed tackles (there are certainly too many successful tackles anyway) or perhaps not quite enough pot shots from 20 yards out (which seems inconceivable given the number of complaints about long shots, but there you go).

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It's consistently about 3-5 off per team. Interesting. As Paul said, it might be that blocked shots are not counted. However, it might also be that there are not quite enough missed tackles (there are certainly too many successful tackles anyway) or perhaps not quite enough pot shots from 20 yards out (which seems inconceivable given the number of complaints about long shots, but there you go).

if they add even more long shots they should rename it Target Practice 2009 :D

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Speaking of blocked shots, there seems to be too many of them. In real life, the ball manages to go past without hitting the defender even if they are standing right before you. But in FM it seems if the defender is standing roughly in front of you the shot almost always gets blocked or deflected. This is probably the most significant factor in the lack of shots on goal.

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When i counted the irl shots, i didn't include blocked shots. There are as much or even more blocked shots irl than in the game.

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I think blocked shots in the game are about right. They're just not shown very well.

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Yeah blocked shots on its own are OK, but when you put it as a ratio between non-blocked and blocked it feels a bit high imo. Just how I feel about it though.

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if they add even more long shots they should rename it Target Practice 2009 :D

You can see the unwinnable situation here. If SOG go up by 6-10 per match, yet scorelines remain the same (and scorelines are pretty much spot on), we will get dual complaints of:

1: Too many long shots

2: Players missing 'easy' scoring opportunities

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What I would also be especially interested in is the number of 'clear cut chances' generated on average in each match on FM, and real life. However the clarification of chances as 'clear cut' can be based on opinion, but it would be interesting to see a comparision, if one is possible ?

What do people think about the number of 'clear cut' chances created per game? Accurate? Not Enough?

Personally I think that deep defences, getting lots of men behind the ball, with tight marking, have been implemented a touch too well, resulting in defensive midfielders and centre backs being too effective at closing out the opposition forwards. This might explain the lack of shots, and also the heavy weighting of long range efforts.

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I watch matches almost constantly day to day as part of working on this and I haven't seen that at all. It happens, of course, as it does in real life, but it never feels excessive. Its quite a mystery this to be honest......

You got to be ******** me mate.

Just got this game and ive played 15-20 games of my first season and the first thing that came to my mind is that theres an excessive amount of shots hitting the framework. It´s just plain stupid. In a couple of games ive seen more hits to the framework in this game then from all games ive watched on TV and all games iveplayed on computer since CMI (maybe not completely true :).

Of all the games ive played i have in all games but one hit the post or bar atleast once, in one game against Celtic i hit the post 4 times and the bar twice. My opponents had one in the post. Overall its not that many but i´d say theres an average of 2 balls hitting either the post or bar per game.

And dont give me any BS thats its my tactic - i dont have a slider that says "The post gives double points - aim for it".

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You can see the unwinnable situation here. If SOG go up by 6-10 per match, yet scorelines remain the same (and scorelines are pretty much spot on), we will get dual complaints of:

1: Too many long shots

2: Players missing 'easy' scoring opportunities

Do free-kicks count as shots on target? they do right?

If so, there's a definite lack of shots in open play from closer to goal.

There's another issue with free kicks - where players always shoot from odd angles instead of crossing them into the box as well.

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There's another issue with free kicks - where players always shoot from odd angles instead of crossing them into the box as well.

I was jsut thinking that about 10 minutes ago when my player shot from an odd angle when it was crying out for a whipped cross into the box.

On the shots on goal issue, I find some games I see lots of shots and in other games I see hardly any, and IMO I think this is realistic. As is the amount of goals scored.

My only gripe would be that strikers constantly miss one on ones in the middle of the goal, they seem to just smash it at the goalie, this both for and against me (so its not my tactics).

I think this is the best match engine we have had in a long time.

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This seems quite interesting and the SI guys to seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Many many people are comlaining that long shots are too frequent, (I'm not personally experiencing this), but I am experiencing too many shots hitting the woodwork, (more shots hitting woodwork than goals being scored).

If SI increase the number of shots, but keep the number of goals the same, then how long will it be before the dreaded "Superkeeper" threads start to resurface.

If we also take into account the many complaints thet people are making that there are too many opportunities from long punts by the Def/GK, (that is under review), then the SOG is likely to be reduced still further.

Maybe a reduction in the number of chances created by a long punt downfield and an increase in the number of long shots might be the answer.

I suppose it's a bit of a balancing act.

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I suppose it's a bit of a balancing act.

The understatement of the century ;)

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There's another issue with free kicks - where players always shoot from odd angles instead of crossing them into the box as well.

Yes that is rather annoying, even when you specifically instruct them to cross it they seem intent on hitting row Z :D

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I think more through balls are needed. Even my players who are set to "through balls often" hardly seem to play any, instead choosing to shoot from miles out or pass sideways. I think this is why there aren't so many shots from in and around the edge of the area.

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I think more through balls are needed. Even my players who are set to "through balls often" hardly seem to play any, instead choosing to shoot from miles out or pass sideways. I think this is why there aren't so many shots from in and around the edge of the area.

But then you'll have even more clear one on ones of which there already are too many. It'll either end up in ridiculous scorelines again or the strikers need to be artificially handicapped even more to balance the results.

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