What is wrong with this 4-4-2? (Paris FC, FM21)

[m.ollie]

Hello,

I took over Paris FC as that is a club that is neither non-league nor a good club. I wanted to test something different than I usually do, having read this post.
I went with a 4-4-2 formation, with the intent of playing aggressive football, but also kind of "pulled back" - considering that we're not the best side. I basically want to play a mix of everything - press hard, but also let opponents attack from time to time and counter-attack quickly. So I scraped together an easy formation and focused on building familiarity with it.



PIs:
CDde - Pass It Shorter, Take Fewer Risks
CMde - Pass It Shorter, Take Fewer Risks, Dribble Less
CMsu - More Direct Passes, Take More Risks, Roam From Position

However, even though we've been winning games (currently sit 1st in the league after a couple of matches), I notice many glaring issues with it. First of all, we create a lot of bad chances (almost no clear cut chances) and pretty much only win by a goal or so (our finishing is terrible, but my strikers aren't world class either), while even the most sit back opposition can have 2 shots on goals, and 2 goals. Defence is often caught with through balls. Our goalkeeper is also often player of the match, which is never a good sign. I honestly think everything we've won so far was due to luck.

I wanted to ask whether what I think is correct, so:
1. F9su and IWsu on the same flank take the same space. I haven't really noticed it in-game, but it only seems logical. The reason I went with that is that Hanin, my LWB, is one of the best players on the pitch and an aggressive player (has many attacking traits), so I want to play him as WBat. Am I correct here or the IW actually runs into the space created by F9? Not sure whether this is a good combo, or a bad one. Honestly I'm thinking I should drop the F9 entirely, maybe switch to 4-4-1-1?
2. Not sure what to think about WMat on the right. The reason I don't play a winger here is that Belaud is pretty slow, has mediocre dribbling, but has decent defending attributes. I still want him to attack more often than not - he actually has the most assists. My rightbacks are also not very good, so I want them to sit deeper most of the time. Is this flank just something I need to improve player-wise (after 1st season I guess), or tactically flawed?
3. Intensity is too high. Maybe introduce a split block, with defence sitting back more and trying to avoid through balls, while midfield tries to win the ball back? Higher DL and standard LOE?
4. Playing wide. Just not sure about this one. I want to stretch the opposition for AF to make quick runs from through balls, but this doesn't really happen. Most of my goals happen from outside the box.

I lack experience managing sides that are mediocre in their league so perhaps I ask too much of my players and it's just the way it is. What would you change here? What would you play if you were in my shoes? Thank you in advance for any advice. :)

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, m.ollie said:

I basically want to play a mix of everything - press hard, but also let opponents attack from time to time and counter-attack quickly

I fear that exactly is the major problem here. I mean, you can play a so-called hybrid style of football that mixes a couple of styles, but it still has to be consistent and with a clear idea in mind. Otherwise, it's hardly going to work. 

In other words, you can play a mix of something, but not of everything. 

Anyway, I can tell you how I would tweak your setup of roles and duties if you want me to, and after that we can discuss instructions  

[m.ollie]

32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

I fear that exactly is the major problem here. I mean, you can play a so-called hybrid style of football that mixes a couple of styles, but it still has to be consistent and with a clear idea in mind. Otherwise, it's hardly going to work. 

In other words, you can play a mix of something, but not of everything.

That is true, I will have to rethink how I want to play exactly. But for this tactic I wanted my playstyle to be more direct - I don't mind if I lose goals, as long as I outscore my opposition.

32 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Anyway, I can tell you how I would tweak your setup of roles and duties if you want me to, and after that we can discuss instructions  

Sure, let's hear it.

[Tsuru]

I think Experienced Defender can help you more with roles, duties and TIs and on the style itself. But personally I don't like a MC Support on a 442 (doesn't look like to make enough foward runs, too bureaucreatic sometimes), neither the False Nine (maybe more suited for a single striker system) and I would consider changing the WB on Attack (exposes your flank too much) for a FB on Attack or WB on Support. Also the Attacking mentality sometimes is a little bit risky. I think those are some points to consider in order to improve your tactic.

[Falahk]

Roles look really good, but I'm honestly not so keen on the ti's and pi's

The main strength of a 4-4-2 is the defensive shape (How it covers the whole pitch), if you play with heavy pressing in this formation you compromise your shape to much and gaps will open up for the opposing team to exploit 

As a general rule of tumb, 4-5-1dm and 4-2-3-1 are good for aggressive press over the whole pitch, 3-5-2(and it's variations), Brazilian box and narrow diamond formations are good for aggressive pressing inside your own half, while for the 4-4-2 anything more then the default settings is probably overkill 

That being said, what changes would I make?

1) ditch all ti's and pi's you currently have, they are ether redundant due to player roles and attacking mentality or unsuitable for the formation you are using 

2) add shoot less often pi to all players possible, to reduce the amount of long shoots (I preffare this over work ball into box ti since I think the ti also tamper with other settings rather then just long shoots)

3) add offside trap (with attacking mentality you are playing with a high line so this makes a lot of sense)

4) set gk distribution to fullbacks (unless your gk have amazing delivery, be it long kicks or passing), it's the safest way to build play from the back and would not result in instant lose of possession 

5) consider adding lower LOE, this is not something I have playtested, but it should in theory work really well and make the team more compact 

Edited November 29, 2020 by Falahk

[m.ollie]

1 hour ago, Tsuru said:

But personally I don't like a MC Support on a 442 (doesn't look like to make enough foward runs, too bureaucreatic sometimes), neither the False Nine (maybe more suited for a single striker system) and I would consider changing the WB on Attack (exposes your flank too much) for a FB on Attack or WB on Support. Also the Attacking mentality sometimes is a little bit risky. I think those are some points to consider in order to improve your tactic.

That's why I gave Roam From Position PI to the CMsu. I have to admit though - looks very bleak on pitch, average rating of 6.64, no goals, no assists. What would you say about using a Roaming Playmaker in that position? Would that add some positive movement? This is the guy. Not brilliant, but very balanced, and one of the better players I currently have.

As for WBat I find that it's not really a concern - CMde covers the area for him. Haven't noticed many opposition entrances from that side of the pitch. F9 is something that I'm strongly considering of dropping, I don't know how I'd fit 2 strikers in my squad without it though...
Attacking mentality is something that I want to keep as a "core" of my tactic, if I can.
 

1 hour ago, Falahk said:

That being said, what changes would I make?[...]

Really sensible advice. I created a second tactic with the same roles (except for CMsu -> RPM) and your suggestions. Kept shorter passing and lower risk on CBs though, as they are bad technically. Don't want them to try long passes because they just lose possession that way. Since the guy that plays RPM has the Comes Deep To Get Ball trait I'm guessing that even if the ball ends up with defenders they will just pass it to him or fullbacks.

Thank you for the replies.

[denen123]

2 minutes ago, m.ollie said:

That's why I gave Roam From Position PI to the CMsu. I have to admit though - looks very bleak on pitch, average rating of 6.64, no goals, no assists. What would you say about using a Roaming Playmaker in that position? Would that add some positive movement? This is the guy. Not brilliant, but very balanced, and one of the better players I currently have.

As for WBat I find that it's not really a concern - CMde covers the area for him. Haven't noticed many opposition entrances from that side of the pitch. F9 is something that I'm strongly considering of dropping, I don't know how I'd fit 2 strikers in my squad without it though...
Attacking mentality is something that I want to keep as a "core" of my tactic, if I can.
 

Really sensible advice. I created a second tactic with the same roles (except for CMsu -> RPM) and your suggestions. Kept shorter passing and lower risk on CBs though, as they are bad technically. Don't want them to try long passes because they just lose possession that way. Since the guy that plays RPM has the Comes Deep To Get Ball trait I'm guessing that even if the ball ends up with defenders they will just pass it to him or fullbacks.

Thank you for the replies.

Or just make him a box-to-box? It is coded to go further forward in transitions together with your desired "roaming effect". Plus, high pressing systems are built around numerical advantages in the middle, together with available. Whatever variations of the 4-4-2(bar the asymmetrical 4-2-4 or 4-4-4-1-1) is not suited for higher pressing. 

You can, however, use the split block to cover zones out wide and force press on your ST. That is a very good option to consider. It'll force your opposition middle and with an aggressive pivot(i.e BWM and Dlp, whatever switch/combo or iteration of defend-support used will be the trap to essentially steal the ball)

Pressing should be looked at more as traps. It is really sweet watching a well thought out "trap" work the way you want it to.

[blj-fabolous]

Prefered foot: Left only.  So switch with Mandouki, and make him Box to Box because you want a strong transition.

[Tsuru]

12 minutos atrás, denen123 disse:

Or just make him a box-to-box? It is coded to go further forward in transitions together with your desired "roaming effect"

This. I think a BBM is perfect for a second midfielder player on 442 systems, he helps the more defensive partner and attacks when necessary, moving around the pitch wherever he is needed. I use BWM D and BBM on my 4411 and they work very well.

26 minutos atrás, m.ollie disse:

F9 is something that I'm strongly considering of dropping, I don't know how I'd fit 2 strikers in my squad without it though...

See if the False Nine can play as a Pressing Foward or Deep Lying Foward, both roles can be very good in a 442.

[m.ollie]

30 minutes ago, denen123 said:

You can, however, use the split block to cover zones out wide and force press on your ST. That is a very good option to consider. It'll force your opposition middle and with an aggressive pivot(i.e BWM and Dlp, whatever switch/combo or iteration of defend-support used will be the trap to essentially steal the ball)

Pressing should be looked at more as traps. It is really sweet watching a well thought out "trap" work the way you want it to.

That sounds really intriguing actually. I realized I actually have never played a BWM before, and I have a decent player for that role (Mandouki) - good aggression and bravery. So I will force the wide players and strikers to press more, while keeping all the others on default press.

What do you think about this setup?

                 PFat - PFsu
IWsu - BBMsu - BWMde - WMat
  WBat - CDde - CDde - FBsu
                      SKde

Will the IW and BBM not take each other's space?

Edited November 29, 2020 by m.ollie

[Tsuru]

32 minutos atrás, m.ollie disse:

That sounds really intriguing actually. I realized I actually have never played a BWM before, and I have a decent player for that role (Mandouki) - good aggression and bravery. So I will force the wide players and strikers to press more, while keeping all the others on default press.

What do you think about this setup?

                 PFat - PFsu
IWsu - BBMsu - BWMde - WMat
  WBat - CDde - CDde - FBsu
                      SKde

Will the IW and BBM not take each other's space?

Swap the sides of the BBM and the BWM, despite the better foot, and you will be fine.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Tsuru

[frukox]

14 minutes ago, m.ollie said:

That sounds really intriguing actually. I realized I actually have never played a BWM before, and I have a decent player for that role (Mandouki) - good aggression and bravery. So I will force the wide players and strikers to press more, while keeping all the others on default press.

What do you think about this setup?

                 PFat - PFsu
IWsu - BBMsu - BWMde - WMat
  WBat - CDde - CDde - FBsu
                      SKde

Will the IW and BBM not take each 

Occassionally, yes however, if you set him to stay wide, it would not be a big deal. Your right flank doesn't have the right support. I can't see an efficient attack plan here. What about this?

                 

           DLF(S) PF(A)

IW(S)  DLP(S) BBM(S) WM(A)

FB(A) CD(D) CD(D) FB(S)

                   SK(D)

This system aim to control the left side and attack on the right side and is suitable for progressive possession football with a medium block.

 

[Experienced Defender]

9 hours ago, m.ollie said:

But for this tactic I wanted my playstyle to be more direct - I don't mind if I lose goals, as long as I outscore my opposition

Just a moment to clarify something... A more direct playstyle and the "score one more" philosophy are not the same thing. They can be used together as elements of a tactical approach, but do not have the same meaning.

Perhaps you meant a fast attacking style, rather than more direct playstyle? 

[Experienced Defender]

@Ruskin Mate, if you want to discuss your tactic or some of its elements, please start your own separate thread and you'll get feedback there 

Because this one is exclusively about the OP's tactic. 

[Louisking1992]

I Would personally not use the "wide" TI in a 442, especially when playing with an attacking mentality as this will increase many things such as the risk taking. 

The wider you play, the bigger the distance between each player, meaning you are basically maximizing the risk of losing the ball. When using a flat 4-4-2, your centre midfielders are vital, asking them to be further apart with no one behind (a DM) will make it more difficult to keep the ball (watch Arsenal when we play Xhaka-Ceballos in the middle, the gaps between them both cause huge issues during build up and also when tracking back. 

[m.ollie]

Thank you for all your feedback. I have since moved on from 4-4-2, as I was having very mixed results with it even after the tweaks. They definitely helped, but I didn't want to end up in the lower end of the league trying to force it. Part of it was probably due to mediocre team cohesion (that has since improved), but I also think my players weren't really fit for it. Especially the defence was really bad, the amount of goals that their mistakes costed me... Also, as I mentioned before, my best player (Hanin) is my wingback, whom I want to play as a WBat, while my wingers are neither very pacy nor can dribble all that good. I felt like they didn't contribute to the game very much, usually lost the ball straight away against better opposition.

I decided to counter this defensive masquerade by playing a 5-2-1-2 formation, counter-attacking football. So far it has worked wonders. I even managed to beat PSG (the derby!) in Coupe de France after a penalty shootout. This result alone makes me think this tactic is much better for my team than the 4-4-2 I've been trying to force. Considering this is still the first season I thought they'd destroy me by like 10 goals. They played their best XI (except for the goalkeeper), too. Really glad with that one.

Below is a screen of results with each formation. Ignore the friendlies - just sharpness farm against really weak teams. Games I started 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 I switched to 5-2-1-2 almost instantly.



Now, 5-2-1-2 is not going to work against weaker opposition that is not willing to attack me - as seen in some of the pathetic 0-0 draws against weaklings. I didn't have any plan B at the moment and decided to play it safe instead of switching back to 4-4-2 that lost me so many goals. So now I'm building a 4-3-3 DM formation that will be more attacking, while hopefully the defensive midfielder should mitigate the defensive issues I've been having. It's still early days so I'm not deleting the 4-4-2 yet, for sure.

If anyone is interested here's the 5-2-1-2 I've been playing. Maybe you have some advice on that, too?


 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, m.ollie said:

 

2 hours ago, m.ollie said:

If anyone is interested here's the 5-2-1-2 I've been playing. Maybe you have some advice on that, too?

Up the Defensive line to standard to get optimal compactness, which is especially important for the counter-attacking football you seem to want to play.

Play all 3 CBs on defend duty, because there is no need for one cover and 2 stoppers in this kind of tactic. Alternatively, the central one could be a stopper and the outer 2 on defend. 

Narrow attacking width is basically unnecessary, as your formation is already narrow + your low team mentality also makes it proportionally narrower. 

Distribution to fullbacks makes no sense, simply because your formation does not employ fullbacks but only wing-backs. Therefore, you can change it into Distribute to flanks.

Be wary of using a role such as RPM in central midfield, considering the formation you are using and the playing style. If you notice defensive issues there, change him into a DLP on support.

If counter-attacking football is what you want, then this formation (5212 narrow) is not the best idea. Consider switching to a flat 532 (with 3 CMs) instead. 

[Experienced Defender]

And of course, be very careful with the counter-press instruction. Do not use it unless you are confident that your players are good enough to execute it properly.

[frukox]

9 hours ago, m.ollie said:

Thank you for all your feedback. I have since moved on from 4-4-2, as I was having very mixed results with it even after the tweaks. They definitely helped, but I didn't want to end up in the lower end of the league trying to force it. Part of it was probably due to mediocre team cohesion (that has since improved), but I also think my players weren't really fit for it. Especially the defence was really bad, the amount of goals that their mistakes costed me... Also, as I mentioned before, my best player (Hanin) is my wingback, whom I want to play as a WBat, while my wingers are neither very pacy nor can dribble all that good. I felt like they didn't contribute to the game very much, usually lost the ball straight away against better opposition.

I decided to counter this defensive masquerade by playing a 5-2-1-2 formation, counter-attacking football. So far it has worked wonders. I even managed to beat PSG (the derby!) in Coupe de France after a penalty shootout. This result alone makes me think this tactic is much better for my team than the 4-4-2 I've been trying to force. Considering this is still the first season I thought they'd destroy me by like 10 goals. They played their best XI (except for the goalkeeper), too. Really glad with that one.

Below is a screen of results with each formation. Ignore the friendlies - just sharpness farm against really weak teams. Games I started 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 I switched to 5-2-1-2 almost instantly.



Now, 5-2-1-2 is not going to work against weaker opposition that is not willing to attack me - as seen in some of the pathetic 0-0 draws against weaklings. I didn't have any plan B at the moment and decided to play it safe instead of switching back to 4-4-2 that lost me so many goals. So now I'm building a 4-3-3 DM formation that will be more attacking, while hopefully the defensive midfielder should mitigate the defensive issues I've been having. It's still early days so I'm not deleting the 4-4-2 yet, for sure.

If anyone is interested here's the 5-2-1-2 I've been playing. Maybe you have some advice on that, too?


 

I love this formation when it comes to playing counter attacking football but your AM should be very hard-working as you definitely need him for your defensive transitions. He cannot basically slack off. Anyway, you know your team.

Your tactical analysis tells you that they are penetrating from the center and the left flank. It's not surprising given the mentality gap created by your WBA and CMD and a roaming playmaker in the center. You may change your CMD to a CAR and RPM to a DLPS like ED said. 

Your DL and LOE basically means you protect your goal on the edge of the penalty area. So maybe you can try upping them by a notch and I'd remove Run at Defence and I also echo ED that you don't need a narrow width. Both instructions may cause your team to lose the ball in your transitions. So those may also be the reason for your conceding goals.  Good luck:)

[Tsuru]

I also used a 5-3-2 and it´s variations for some time, but I don´t like narrow formations on FM. Maybe I didn´t have the right players to play a narrow system, but I also feel that they are very demanding and I never do the flanks very well - the WB/FBs don´t attack enough neither defend very well, always looking like outnumbered. I also feel that the CD´s have to be really good to play that way, so these kind of formations are a "no" for me, I prefer 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1, 4-2-3-1 and 4-1-4-1 DM wide. 

However, I think the key point here is the midfield. You need to be very precise here to place a trio that protect your defense and at the same time do not isolate your strikers, otherwise your team will simply hoof the ball foward and waste possession. Maybe using three midfielders on a line is easier - one of them will protect the space in front of the defense, the other one will help him and link midfield and attack, and the third one may be a little bit more advanced, almost like an attacking midfielder but starting deeper to help the other two.

Hope you can improve your system and have success.