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Conceding an insane amount of shots / Fiorentina 5-3-2


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My main aim with this new Fiorentina save is to experiment with defensive tactics.

I tried to set up a 5-3-2 that will get me winning balls close to the middle of the pitch and launching long balls to my strikers up front.

After reading a lot about defensive set up and mentalities, I decided to opt for a positive/attacking mentality, to make sure my players aren't too passive and are taking enough risks when attacking.

Seven games into the save, I'm consistently conceding an outraging amount of headers and shots inside the penalty box.

When coming up with the tactic I was assuming I'd be under a lot of pressure in games, but was hoping the formation will restrict the opponents to mostly low quality chances. Well, it's nothing like what I expected.

I mostly faced mediocre sides so far, and all of them had a very easy time getting balls into the box. I'm not sure where the problem is. Pressing isn't too low, and the defenders aren't that bad, or at least shouldn't be.

Would appreciate any help.

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The two most glaring things I can see straight away is you are using a lower LOE, with no counter press, so you are basically inviting the opposition into your penalty area. Also with the get stuck in, you are probably conceding a lot of free kicks, which will be much nearer your penalty area with no press.

As you are playing a back 5 plus a holding DM I would raise your LOE to higher. If you insist on using so many Defensive instructions you should add counter press when the ball is lost. These two instructions will at least mean getting nearer to your penalty area is considerably harder. 
Also noticed you aren’t scoring too many either, outside of your front 2, no one else will be anywhere near the opposition goal. 
I’d make your left WBA, your right WBS, and your right CMA. 
OR

change the BWM into your dlpd, with your left mid a bbm. 
You have 3 centre backs, so you need more penetration from your wingbacks and midfield. 
Hopefully that helps 

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I have been developing a counter attack system at my save in Portugal and maybe I can help. Why? Because I have been playing counter attack on Positive mentality, too, on a similar way you are trying to do.

I really think you need some tweaks on roles and duties and maybe even adjust the formation, your team looks like to be very passive and the two upfront might be easily isolated. Just think...why do you need a DMC with three CDs? Why both Wingbacks on Defend, who is going do to the flanks? Being defensively solid does not mean you need 9 players on your midfield.

I also think you added too much TIs. On Positive mentality the passing is more direct by default, so More Direct Passing makes it very long and you can waste possession. Be aware of Hit Early Crosses too, here on my team I feel it rushes things a little bit too much and maybe it isn´t always necessary.

Also In Transition you can use just Counter and Distribute Quickly, I think you do not need to specify to whom. I don´t however agree with Counter Press on this kind of system you are trying to create, because it can expose you very badly. Maybe Regroup when you need to defend more, but even that I wouldn´t use all the time.

Also we have to consider that counter/defend systems are not easy to manage. You may need to adjust instructions with some regularity during matches, and you may need a B plan when your system is ready. Just think about it...if you play counter/defensively and suffer a goal, what you will do if the opponent retreats and starts passing the ball until the end of the match? Will you keep the play the same way or will be more agressive to try to score a goal and come back to the match? And if you do, will you keep playing aggressive or you will come back to the counter/defend strategy? Those are very important questions that managers that play on more attacking systems usually don´t have - they normally keep attacking and pressing all the time because their goal is to make more goals, they are not really worried about not suffering them or not about playing with less risks and use the space left by the opponents. 

Edited by Tsuru
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Thank you all for your responses! Much appreciated.

I tried applying some of the advice given, but the defence remains shocking, even though we now press higher and more urgently. The CB's typically average something between 6.2 and 6.5.

 Will probably have to restart the save.

 

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I have also been having bad luck with a 5-3-2 formation - no chances created and the opposition getting good scoring opportunities out of the wazoo. I am trying to replicate the style of Marco Rossi with Hungary, where in defence the formation is more like a 4-4-2, with the wingback on the attacking side of the opponent getting back into the back line, and the central defenders pushing to the other side accordingly. Is there even a way to properly replicate this in FM? Seems like there is no way of telling a CD to shift outside or play wider.

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Maybe try changing the DLP to Defend so he holds position in front of the back 3 a bit better 

Your right wingback won't offer the team much going forward, try changing him to Support to try & stretch that right flank 

Then, a CM(A) with a TM(A) behind him doesn't seem like a good combination, try changing one one them to Support 

You could even make adjustments to your back 3, I don't play with a back 3 much but the central CD on Cover (as there's a DM in front of him) or the outer CB's to Stopper ( to try & add protection to the flanks) makes sense

Your front two will lack lateral movement so will get picked up by the opposition & won't offer much out wide when you have to one in the AML/R stratas 

Be More Disciplined is one I never use, seems very rigid to me, like you're stiffling your team 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Chris2509 said:

Thank you all for your responses! Much appreciated.

I tried applying some of the advice given, but the defence remains shocking, even though we now press higher and more urgently. The CB's typically average something between 6.2 and 6.5.

 Will probably have to restart the save.

 

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For me, looking at that, you're absolutely chocking your team of creativity and you're overly cautious which means you're handing over the initiative to the other team. I've had a quick look at Fiorentina's team in game and this is probably how I'd set up using those players and that formation.

Vlahovic (PFsu) + Kouame (PFat) I'd go double PF here and really stress those opponents defenders.

Castrovilli (MEZat) + Pulgar (CARsu) With this pairing I'm stretching the midfield whilst still having a runner in midfield.

Biraghi (WBsu) + Amrabat (DLPsu) + Lirola (WBat) Now this is where the combinations start coming in. Biraghi supports Castrovilli and they have the offensive pivot in Vlahovic ahead. On the right you'll get Pulgar supporting the attacking Lirola. Amrabat can step into midfield on support creating a sort of double pivot with Pulgar.

I'd go with the same back three but play Pezzella on the left as Maksimovic prefers playing in centre/right.

Dragowski (SKde) You're playing high up the pitch on a positive mentality so having a SK would help.

Try that as a starting point and see how you get on :) 

Edited by Justified
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Have you tried moving the DLP from the DM strata into central midfield and playing with 3 in the middle? That will force the other midfielders wider to support the flanks, and push your defence out further and make you more competitive in the middle.

the second thing I would do is change the duties in your back 3: either 2 stoppers either side of a cover defender; or leave the 2 wide CDs on defend and change the middle defender either to a CD(C) or L(S).

I'm having no defensive problems in FM20 wth a 5-3-2 with Bolton (with a libero and 3 CM - 2 carrileros either side of a DLP) in fact we have the best defensive record in League One after 12 games.

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In the first tactic, the reason you were conceding so many goals was most probably defensive overkill - even your WBs were both on defend duty, so you posed no attacking threat at all, which led to constant pressure from the opposition. Because even in the most defensive tactic, you still need to have some attacking bite. And in a narrow bottom-heavy system, the wing-backs are very important in this respect, especially as their forward runs are sufficiently covered by the relatively conservative midfield trio.

The second tactic looks a bit better overall, but the problem is the right flank, where your defensive WB is basically left to his own devices.

Another question is which exact type of defensive football do you want to play - passive (like catenaccio) or more proactive (i.e. counter-attacking)?

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On 27/11/2020 at 06:10, Chris2509 said:

My main aim with this new Fiorentina save is to experiment with defensive tactics.

I tried to set up a 5-3-2 that will get me winning balls close to the middle of the pitch and launching long balls to my strikers up front.

After reading a lot about defensive set up and mentalities, I decided to opt for a positive/attacking mentality, to make sure my players aren't too passive and are taking enough risks when attacking.

Seven games into the save, I'm consistently conceding an outraging amount of headers and shots inside the penalty box.

When coming up with the tactic I was assuming I'd be under a lot of pressure in games, but was hoping the formation will restrict the opponents to mostly low quality chances. Well, it's nothing like what I expected.

I mostly faced mediocre sides so far, and all of them had a very easy time getting balls into the box. I'm not sure where the problem is. Pressing isn't too low, and the defenders aren't that bad, or at least shouldn't be.

Would appreciate any help.

image.png.de8e537b0528cb34b8bb4a6b03108c9d.png

 

image.png.d72b6c7feee9c3c3496e3f74a8d2c552.png

image.thumb.png.787d55c4c19d9cb4cde48a7295bfa891.png

 

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3 at the back formations are ideal for defensive counter-attacking sides but defending with a low block is not that easy because you need 8 players who can actually defend so attributes like anticipation, concentration, positioning, strength, jumping reach, bravery, marking,tackling,aggression, determination are essential. In addition to this, you definitely need your running midfield to have some passing, composure, vision and stamina to see goal creating opportunities and need great physical and tactically aware wing-backs with some crossing abilities to pull this low block effectively. I don't know your players so what I can recommend is just for illustration and thinking purposes:

 

                       GK(D)

WB(S) CB(S) NCB/D) CB(S) WB(S)

                          A

             CM(A)   DLP(S)

             AF(A)     TM(A)

A right-footed AF(A) is better for quick crossing opportunities with his stronger foot)

At least positive (for more forward-thinking passing, tackling, shooting, more forward runs, etc.)

Key instructions are simple for direct counterattacking football:

In-possession:More direct passing, higher tempo, hit early crosses(you need to hit opposition quickly before they settle), play for set-pieces(you are going to have low possession percentages you need to get the best out of dead-ball situations. Set them appropriately) 

In transition: Regroup(if you are one of weaker teams in the league), counter

Out-of-possession: lower LOE(hallmark of low block tactics), tight marking(you can't afford to give space to opposition players in your third), get stuck in(for quick turnovers and proactive defending), at least more urgent pressing(the same reason)

 

Edited by frukox
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Thank you all guys! I've read and enjoyed each single comment. A lot to think about.

I'm currently doing a different save, but this got me inspired to restart the Fiorentina save at some point, or at least implement your ideas in my current one.

Defensive football is for sure a lot harder set up correctly!

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59 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

It's true, but at the same time I am not sure if Fiorentina is (was) the right type of team (club) for such a style of football. 

Based on the squad available, I liked the idea! Two physical forwards, good passers and defenders...it seemed like a good base for some hoofball. 

Would you generally avoid this type of approach with top 6-8 clubs? Specifically talking about bottom-heavy formations. 

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1 hour ago, Chris2509 said:

Based on the squad available, I liked the idea! Two physical forwards, good passers and defenders...it seemed like a good base for some hoofball. 

Would you generally avoid this type of approach with top 6-8 clubs? Specifically talking about bottom-heavy formations. 

Yes, personally I generally set up a medium block and look for fast transitions. If the opposition doesn't attack me with a lot of runners and they plan to soak up pressure and hit on the counter, this time I'll try a medium-high block and progressive possession football if I have the right personnel.

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2 hours ago, Chris2509 said:

Would you generally avoid this type of approach with top 6-8 clubs? Specifically talking about bottom-heavy formations

Absolutely. I would consider such tactical style only when managing an underdog. But even then, not necessarily every single underdog, because some underdog teams cannot play defensive football effectively. 

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