A Closer Look at Training.

[ron.e]

Training Updating

OK, so Training is updated once a week. That's Sunday for me in the greek league, but people 'd better check whether it's the same day in their league too. So on Sunday the Training Levels are updated and Training Happiness too. Arrows in squad training screen are updated then too. That's when the game looks at each player's training schedule.

Consequeces:

- It does not matter what training schedule the player has during the week, it only matters what he has enter Sunday.

- Training Levels only take into account the schedules enter Sunday. So they are not gradual as I thought.

- If a player is unhappy with training, the message will not go away till Sunday, even if you have lowered his workload considerably.

- It probably does not make sense to lighten workload after games (when condition is low) in order to avoid injuries, because the game probably does not find out. "Rest days" are a different matter, see below.

Still to find out:

- If training is only updated on Sunday, how is injury probability calculated with respect to current condition and how does the training schedule affect them?

- How are "Rest days" calculated into a player's condition?

PS. Ron, I 'll write my opinion to your last post later.

Very informative Lyssien. For the first time ever i'm really taking an interest in training, and most importantly i am seeing the benefits and the reward of it. What do you mean by "It does not matter what training schedule the player has during the week, it only matters what he has enter Sunday" and

"Training Levels only take into account the schedules enter Sunday. So they are not gradual as I thought"?

How do i find out if my league training update is on sunday as well?

Ps. I look forward to you getting back to my earlier post. Thanks

[Lyssien]

Thanks for the advice Sfraser. When i say fitting in i mean giving them all their first team chance. Especially when they are around the same age and same positions. By what you're saying, do you mean this:-

16-22 Give me personal regimes that bring out the best in their strenghts e.g if a youngsters a central midfielder and i decided to make them into Mcd, if they have positioning and tackling at 12 then i would focus on those areas. Am i right?

22-28 I really don't know what to do with players like this. Any suggestions? Maybe a general regime to make them good all-round players.

28-32 I was thinking of putting them on speciallised training regimes like tugs that will train them on the stats that are needed for the position. Am i right?

Have i got it completely wrong? If i am right about this, does it matter whether i'm at a top 4 club or a conference team? and do you think it's a good idea to have regimes for every single player at the club? sorry for all the questions. Thanks

My plans usually go like this:

15-16 Youth Training schedule.

Be careful not to overwork them or injure them. I make slight adjustments to the default youth schedules (after creating a specific one for each player), so that I favor the regimes that are needed for each player player. However, as SFraser has explained before, it is crucial to train everything enough, so that each player reaches maximum developmental rate.

17-23 (or until he reaches his PA)

Can further favor the attributes I really want to focus on. But still need to make sure that that player devlops in everything, so that he has a good developmental rate. In the ages 17-19, I need to make sure that the player reaches minimum prerequisite values in certain attributes I care about, so that he can be used in first team matches (e.g. I don't want my winger to have off the ball = 5, so I may need to try to devlop it fast). Also, severe alteration of physical attributes needs to happen here, if desired.

23-29 (or around there anyway)

This is the best time to try severe redistribution of attributes, if things have not gone exactly as desired until then. If the player is already exactly as you wished him to be, a general schedule will probably maintain everything (or develop evenly). However, it may be too late to completely alter the physical attributes, so the main work on them has to be already done.

29-

Maintenance

What do you mean by "It does not matter what training schedule the player has during the week, it only matters what he has enter Sunday" and

"Training Levels only take into account the schedules enter Sunday. So they are not gradual as I thought"?

How do i find out if my league training update is on sunday as well?

The game only knows what schedule the player had enter Sunday, so it assumes that's the schedule the player has until next Saturday. Whatever alterations you make on the schedule, won't be taken into account until the following Sunday.

To give an extreme example: Assume I design a schedule for Player X and reduce everything to zero except for Tactics Training which I put on maximum. Then, on Saturday I reduce Tactics Training to zero too and heighten Shooting training instead. The game is only going to "see" this latter schedule, it will never know that this player trained on Tactics, so it's like he never trained on Tactics.

How to find out the "training updating day": In a test game, design a schedule for a player that only focuses on one regime (e.g. Tactics) and everything else is set to null. Then check this player's Training Levels every day, until you see them change. The day they change, is "your Sunday".

[Lyssien]

Training Updating

OK, so Training is updated once a week. That's Sunday for me in the greek league, but people 'd better check whether it's the same day in their league too. So on Sunday the Training Levels are updated and Training Happiness too. Arrows in squad training screen are updated then too. That's when the game looks at each player's training schedule.

Consequeces:

- It does not matter what training schedule the player has during the week, it only matters what he has enter Sunday.

- Training Levels only take into account the schedules enter Sunday. So they are not gradual as I thought.

- If a player is unhappy with training, the message will not go away till Sunday, even if you have lowered his workload considerably.

- It probably does not make sense to lighten workload after games (when condition is low) in order to avoid injuries, because the game probably does not find out. "Rest days" are a different matter, see below.

Still to find out:

- If training is only updated on Sunday, how is injury probability calculated with respect to current condition and how does the training schedule affect them?

- How are "Rest days" calculated into a player's condition?

OK, I figured out "Rest Days" and injury probability, too.

The game only sees the schedule the player has when it becomes Sunday, and it assumes he is going to have this schedule for the whole following week. Therefore, if a player loses condition abruptly (e.g. because he played a match) we have no way of reducing his workload, because his weekly schedule has been set on Sunday. So the game offers us another way: "Rest days"! So "Rest days" are the way to reduce the schedule we have already set, in order to reduce injury probability when condition is low!

[Flek]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OIELMHK0

My schedules ready for download. This is the same as for 08, so its not tweaked for 09. Feel free to use them and upload them on other pages, would be nice with some feedback and suggestion for tweaking etc.

Hi Iselilja. It is good to read your posts. What does MID stands for in your training regime?

[ron.e]

My plans usually go like this:

15-16 Youth Training schedule.

Be careful not to overwork them or injure them. I make slight adjustments to the default youth schedules (after creating a specific one for each player), so that I favor the regimes that are needed for each player player. However, as SFraser has explained before, it is crucial to train everything enough, so that each player reaches maximum developmental rate.

17-23 (or until he reaches his PA)

Can further favor the attributes I really want to focus on. But still need to make sure that that player devlops in everything, so that he has a good developmental rate. In the ages 17-19, I need to make sure that the player reaches minimum prerequisite values in certain attributes I care about, so that he can be used in first team matches (e.g. I don't want my winger to have off the ball = 5, so I may need to try to devlop it fast). Also, severe alteration of physical attributes needs to happen here, if desired.

23-29 (or around there anyway)

This is the best time to try severe redistribution of attributes, if things have not gone exactly as desired until then. If the player is already exactly as you wished him to be, a general schedule will probably maintain everything (or develop evenly). However, it may be too late to completely alter the physical attributes, so the main work on them has to be already done.

29-

Maintenance

The game only knows what schedule the player had enter Sunday, so it assumes that's the schedule the player has until next Saturday. Whatever alterations you make on the schedule, won't be taken into account until the following Sunday.

To give an extreme example: Assume I design a schedule for Player X and reduce everything to zero except for Tactics Training which I put on maximum. Then, on Saturday I reduce Tactics Training to zero too and heighten Shooting training instead. The game is only going to "see" this latter schedule, it will never know that this player trained on Tactics, so it's like he never trained on Tactics.

How to find out the "training updating day": In a test game, design a schedule for a player that only focuses on one regime (e.g. Tactics) and everything else is set to null. Then check this player's Training Levels every day, until you see them change. The day they change, is "your Sunday".

I totally understand now. Sorry to be a pain. But when you say training levels do you mean the monthly bars on the training overview or do you mean the green arrows in the training section? Thanks

[ron.e]

Sfraser - What does SB,OM,SM mean? Thanks

[Hattijr]

There are some questions i always wonder about :

Do strikers need any Defending-training ?

Can i just put strikers on ZERO defending-training ?

Isn"t some skills "free" anyway ?

When the player is around 15 until 19 year, would it be best to focus on Technical training rather than Psysical training?

More aerobic than strength anyway -since they "stop" progress inn Aerobic- when they are around 24 years anyway ?

-But still develop there strength when they are olde than 24

A bit confused on these :-)

Anybody has some opinions ?

Speak freely please :-)

[danish chelsea]

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=OIELMHK0

My schedules ready for download. This is the same as for 08, so its not tweaked for 09. Feel free to use them and upload them on other pages, would be nice with some feedback and suggestion for tweaking etc.

Please upload somewhere else.. Or else please email me the scehdules to jdvst@yahoo.com. Thanks...

[James8]

I have spent considerable time trying to get the notch numbers to appear alongside the training sliders. Unfortunately, I am writing to say that at this moment in time it cannot be done, which is a big shame.

It appears that the text is set from within the game and is thus inaccessible. I have conferred with Radestock who managed to number the tactics sliders and he has confirmed this also.

I would encourage all those who have been following this thread closely and would like to have a more user friendly control of the training sliders to request SI to include numbered training sliders in the next iteration of the game. Particularly for those of us who seek to find the max./optimum workload for each player individually.

[SFraser]

Orginal Post Updated, alongside some new ideas regarding Training Levels etc.

Please let me know what you think. I have tried to incorporate a lot wider information regarding development into the new OP.

[DJ Sir Matthew]

SFraser, thank you for making me more interested in the training aspect of FM.

Maybe a stupid question, but when you say: Generally speaking there are two key limits you want to find for each player, and stay under. These limits are a players tolerance of Fitness/Physical Training and his tolerance for the Overall Schedule Workload.

What do you mean with the Fitness/Physical Training? Is that the Strength training or the Aerobic or a combination of both?

[Lyssien]

SFraser,

good job on the new OP! A minor correction: Training Progress bars are monthly, not weekly (Training Levels bars are the ones that are weekly). Also, I recommend you mention somewhere that training arrows (in the squad training screen, imo these arrows need to get some mention in the OP), training happiness and training levels are updated once a week, this is vital information in order to keep track of them.

While your new results on Training Levels and also Work Rate are extremely interesting (I haven't tested them yet), it is going to be interesting to see how null training in some regimes affects overall developmental rate (of Current Ability).

Ron,

Training Levels are the bars on the bottom left corner of the player's "training overview" screen.

[SFraser]

SFraser,

good job on the new OP! A minor correction: Training Progress bars are monthly, not weekly (Training Levels bars are the ones that are weekly). Also, I recommend you mention somewhere that training arrows (in the squad training screen, imo these arrows need to get some mention in the OP), training happiness and training levels are updated once a week, this is vital information in order to keep track of them.

Cheers, I will fit that in soon.

While your new results on Training Levels and also Work Rate are extremely interesting (I haven't tested them yet), it is going to be interesting to see how null training in some regimes affects overall developmental rate (of Current Ability).

I am getting some very interesting results with no training in certain areas and sky high training in others. The quirk is that you can reduce say Defending to zero and increase other training areas to make up the difference in Overall Schedule Workload, but it wont produce an equal Overall Training Level intensity. At first glance this appears like a bad thing but I am not convinced it is bad at all. By decreasing or minimising the increase in the Overall Training Level intensity I can increase my Schedule Workload higher before players start complaining.

My current save is in October and I am getting regular and impressive attribute increases on a near weekly basis throughout the majority of my squad.

Another thing I noticed was that immediatly after pressing continue from my match and processing the post match data, my 18 year old wonderkid that scored in the match gained around 10 attributes (no joke) including +1 to Free Kick Taking which he is not training whatsoever, but he was my Free Kick Taker in that match. I had left him out for a few games prior and that was only his second league start of the season. His morale also went up from Good to Very Good, that atleast was predictable.

[RT--]

Interesting that you say work rate is so important. Does professionalism (hidden) contribute at all, do you think?

I'm still trying to get my head around training levels - previously, I'd assumed that if you set all the training areas to be equal, and all your coach stars were equal, any imbalance in the training levels would be down to player personality. I had players who had the same training bars in every area, but were working slightly harder at 'defending' for instance (they had higher training levels in defending), and I wanted to know why. But now I know coaching stars (before 9.3.0) weren't a perfect guide to actual coaching levels, so I'll have to check again.

If imbalances are down to personality, though, I'd be interested as to how this works. What sort of personality would make a player train more on his ball control than any other area? When we say personality, is it actually affected by his playing attributes or position? I ask this, because in another thread, you mentioned that Anderson would probably develop his physical stats because of his high natural fitness.

[ron.e]

Since reading this thread i've been hooked on training and i've been really getting into it atm. The great thing is, it's paying off and i've even started making my own training regimes for youngster but not so much for older players. I'm in charge of blackpool in the championship at the moment and i just bought this winger.

Now i know his strenghts. They stick out like a sore thump. So what i've decided to do is, try and maintain his strenghts while working tirelessly on his weakness. How do you improve determination?

I have given him a regime with high strenght, tactics and set-pieces. With attacking and shooting not far behind and also some ball control in there as well. I'm not sure how he will take to it, but if he is unhappy then i will bring the workload down abit. In terms of the regime, have i got the right idea? Thanks. Ps i still don't know my training day. Does anyone know what the day is for the english leagues?

[ron.e]

I've just worked out that my training day (when training levels change) is thursday. Is that just for blackpool, the championship or in all the english leagues? Thanks

[Lyssien]

Ron,

Determination is improved with tutoring, if you tutor the player with somebody who has a higher determination.

I don't know what good players look like in the Championship, but it's clear that your #1 priority should be his stamina and secondly his crossing (if you are planning to use him as a standard winger). His stamina is the real problem here, hopefully this guy will have some room for improvement, what do your coaches think? Otherwise he may not make it (or you may need to sacrifice some of his speed, unfortunately).

I don't think his Tactics need so much training, tactics also improve a little bit with age anyway. Basically, you are in trouble because of his stamina, so if I were you I would focus mainly on Strength Training. If he has room for general improvement, I would probably try to steadily develop Set Pieces and Shooting, maintain Aerobic, Ball Control, Attacking and Tactics and strongly focus on Strength. That's how I would start, then of course I 'd need to watch his training arrows to see how well it's working and tweak accordingly. Depending on your tactics (how you are planning to use him) you might want to diverge more from this plan. When he becomes more balanced in the areas that interest me, I 'd change his schedule with a more balanced one.

If imbalances are down to personality, though, I'd be interested as to how this works. What sort of personality would make a player train more on his ball control than any other area? When we say personality, is it actually affected by his playing attributes or position? I ask this, because in another thread, you mentioned that Anderson would probably develop his physical stats because of his high natural fitness.

I am almost certain to have noticed that this depends on Personality attributes (most of which are hidden), positions and current level of his attributes (i.e., a technical player may not like too much strength training). It may depend on other factors too. There may also be a random factor in there, I don't know. These imbalances do not last forever, they change with time, so I don't think they depend too rigidly on something.

[ron.e]

Ron,

Determination is improved with tutoring, if you tutor the player with somebody who has a higher determination.

I don't know what good players look like in the Championship, but it's clear that your #1 priority should be his stamina and secondly his crossing (if you are planning to use him as a standard winger). His stamina is the real problem here, hopefully this guy will have some room for improvement, what do your coaches think? Otherwise he may not make it (or you may need to sacrifice some of his speed, unfortunately).

I don't think his Tactics need so much training, tactics also improve a little bit with age anyway. Basically, you are in trouble because of his stamina, so if I were you I would focus mainly on Strength Training. If he has room for general improvement, I would probably try to steadily develop Set Pieces and Shooting, maintain Aerobic, Ball Control, Attacking and Tactics and strongly focus on Strength. That's how I would start, then of course I 'd need to watch his training arrows to see how well it's working and tweak accordingly. Depending on your tactics (how you are planning to use him) you might want to diverge more from this plan. When he becomes more balanced in the areas that interest me, I 'd change his schedule with a more balanced one.

I am almost certain to have noticed that this depends on Personality attributes (most of which are hidden), positions and current level of his attributes (i.e., a technical player may not like too much strength training). It may depend on other factors too. There may also be a random factor in there, I don't know. These imbalances do not last forever, they change with time, so I don't think they depend too rigidly on something.

Thanks for the info lyssien. It has really come in handy. My coaches think he has potiental to be quality player. I will take your advice. By what you're saying, mental stats grow with age. If he was 27 then i wouldn't bother with mental stats because they are mainly down to personality. Am i right here? I've got a right winger in my squad who has determination of 15 so i've told garcia that he should adopt fletcher-taylors approach to the game both mentally and in terms of movement on the pitch. I guess if all goes well. His determination and off the ball should increase as well as some other mental stats. Is that right? I will try what you've said about training and get back to you. His has CA 104 PA 143.

[ron.e]

I'm sorry for the double post. But basically what you're saying is, between 17-20 first thing you concentrate on is his physical side. Age 21-24 would be techique side of things. 24-28 concentrating on both techique and mental. Age 28-31 strictly maintain. Or is it just a case of buying a player and knowing his strenghts, and maintain/slightly improve and weakness, strongly improving those depending on how you want to play him. If it's the latter, then it will be really tricky when you've got a first team and reserve squad of maybe 25-40 players. And i can't see myself making regimes for each and every player. What do you think?

[Jophilo]

Cheers, I will fit that in soon.

Another thing I noticed was that immediatly after pressing continue from my match and processing the post match data, my 18 year old wonderkid that scored in the match gained around 10 attributes (no joke) including +1 to Free Kick Taking which he is not training whatsoever, but he was my Free Kick Taker in that match. I had left him out for a few games prior and that was only his second league start of the season. His morale also went up from Good to Very Good, that atleast was predictable.

Hi SFraser,

can you up a screen of you wonderkid and a screen of his training please ? I'm really curious and i want to see how you go to shape your training. And can you explain what you want from your wonderkid, to see how you put this into his schedule.

Thanks.

[SFraser]

Hi SFraser,

can you up a screen of you wonderkid and a screen of his training please ? I'm really curious and i want to see how you go to shape your training. And can you explain what you want from your wonderkid, to see how you put this into his schedule.

Thanks.

Hey, I have 4 screenshots I can put up of him just now. The Wonderkid is Mario Balotelli and I used the editor to put him in the Manchester United squad at the start of the season, but I did not touch anything else. The advances may look like I have fixed him through the editor but the training screens and attribute chart will show otherwise. My use of an edited database is one of the reasons I don't usually post screenshots. However I am sure you will agree that these results are certainly impressive and desireable, if not spectactular.

Balotelli at Inter July 2008

Balotelli at Manchester United November 2008

Balotelli Training Regime Manchester United November 2008

Mario Balotelli Untrained Attribute Increases November 2008

This player is my pet project in my current save although I am seeing improvement levels throughout the overwhelming majority of the players at my club. I am approximately 3 and a half months into this save so these are the results for only one quarter of a season.

You will notice on the third screenshot that he is happy with his very heavy training schedule even though his aerobic and strength training is high. You will also notice that six areas of individual training levels are sky high, but his overall training level remains low.

On the second screen you will notice that his Determination has increased by one point in each of the last 3 months. This is due no doubt to Wayne Rooney being his mentor. The vast majority of the rest of his attributes have increases by one point, including a few of those he is not training for.

The second screen also shows his match performances. 5 starts and 5 sub appearances in 3 months is not the greatest quantity of playing time, but he has achieved 3 Man of the Match, 4 goals and 3 assists. His passing accuracy and shooting accuracy is high given his attributes and his average rating is also quite impressive.

The final screen shows attribute increases over time for attributes he is not training for. Either this is match practice at work or natural development, I am not completely sure. I have observed in others players that their attributes in areas they do not train can diminish, but these players tend not to play very much.

Overall Mario Balotelli is definately the success story of my first three months managing these players. His development is impressive but his match performances easilly surpass expectations. If he continues to develop in this manner than I will have one of the most awesome attacking line-ups in football.

[Jophilo]

Hey, I have 4 screenshots I can put up of him just now. The Wonderkid is Mario Balotelli and I used the editor to put him in the Manchester United squad at the start of the season, but I did not touch anything else. The advances may look like I have fixed him through the editor but the training screens and attribute chart will show otherwise. My use of an edited database is one of the reasons I don't usually post screenshots. However I am sure you will agree that these results are certainly impressive and desireable, if not spectactular.

Balotelli at Inter July 2008

Balotelli at Manchester United November 2008

Balotelli Training Regime Manchester United November 2008

Mario Balotelli Untrained Attribute Increases November 2008

This player is my pet project in my current save although I am seeing improvement levels throughout the overwhelming majority of the players at my club. I am approximately 3 and a half months into this save so these are the results for only one quarter of a season.

You will notice on the third screenshot that he is happy with his very heavy training schedule even though his aerobic and strength training is high. You will also notice that six areas of individual training levels are sky high, but his overall training level remains low.

On the second screen you will notice that his Determination has increased by one point in each of the last 3 months. This is due no doubt to Wayne Rooney being his mentor. The vast majority of the rest of his attributes have increases by one point, including a few of those he is not training for.

The second screen also shows his match performances. 5 starts and 5 sub appearances in 3 months is not the greatest quantity of playing time, but he has achieved 3 Man of the Match, 4 goals and 3 assists. His passing accuracy and shooting accuracy is high given his attributes and his average rating is also quite impressive.

The final screen shows attribute increases over time for attributes he is not training for. Either this is match practice at work or natural development, I am not completely sure. I have observed in others players that their attributes in areas they do not train can diminish, but these players tend not to play very much.

Overall Mario Balotelli is definately the success story of my first three months managing these players. His development is impressive but his match performances easilly surpass expectations. If he continues to develop in this manner than I will have one of the most awesome attacking line-ups in football.

Thanks very much SFraser. It's instructive. I'm gonna take a look and tell you if i have question about this ;-).

[Lyssien]

SFraser,

I think that your results in those screenshots are very early and we need to wait to see how things go.

Myself, I am not yet convinced on two things:

1) Balotelli's unworked attributes have also developed equally to the worked ones. This indicates that all these improvements are "natural progression", both for worked and unworked attributes.

2) The fact that overall Training Level is lower than overall wokload is a good thing or a bad thing? I am not convinced that it is good. It may mean that although you are training him very hard (very heavy workload in the schedule), you are not gathering much (low overall training levels). Again, I may be wrong, but this needs further reserarch.

I am giving you a hard time with this post, but I think it's crucial to make sure on these things.

Ron,

Your player will probably make it with the PA he has.

Off the ball won't improve with tutoring, just determination and all the hidden personality attributes, provided that the mentor is better at them than the youngster.

I am saying that the main work to improve physical must happen until the player is 23. It's never too early to improve the rest of the attributes either, it's just that with physical one needs to be faster, because later they don't change much.

Yes, it is a lot of work to do this for all players. That's up to you, really. What training can do is to help you get there if you decide to use it. If you think it's too much work, maybe you should focus on players whose attribute distribution is clearly problematic, and try to work solely on them.

[SFraser]

SFraser,

I think that your results in those screenshots are very early and we need to wait to see how things go.

Myself, I am not yet convinced on two things:

1) Balotelli's unworked attributes have also developed equally to the worked ones. This indicates that all these improvements are "natural progression", both for worked and unworked attributes.

2) The fact that overall Training Level is lower than overall wokload is a good thing or a bad thing? I am not convinced that it is good. It may mean that although you are training him very hard (very heavy workload in the schedule), you are not gathering much (low overall training levels). Again, I may be wrong, but this needs further reserarch.

I am giving you a hard time with this post, but I think it's crucial to make sure on these things.

These are the very same points I am faced with in my game. Balotelli's progression does not correspond to his training distribution, but equally does not correspond to his overall training level. However if you look at the details of the screenshot then his progression would correspond to his match performances and schedule intensity.

If you look for example at the level of training he receives for tackling and compare it to the number of tackles he makes per game and the number of fouls he has conceded then there is perhaps a correlation with his improvement in tackling.

My theory is that training distribution is a long term means of relocation of attributes whereas training intensity and match performances determine short term development rate.

As for your second point it is an understandable conclusion, but yet Balotelli is none the less improving dramaticly in the 3 months I have been his manager. The schedule I have Balotelli working on is representative of the schedules my entire squad work on, and I am seeing continual improvements across the board unless those players are both over 30 and rarely playing.

[Rashidi]

Lyssien,

I don't know if you remember this, but in FM2008, I was trying to determine the effects of just using overall training workloads for deriving optimum benefits. Has anyone in this thread, collated all the results per area (ie.defending, attacking, setpieces, etc) to see what the nett effect is? When I did what I did for FM2008, I was fairly confident that if as a manager you had an overall goal..such as developing world class wingers with a bias towards certain attributes, you could structure someones training and then work on those areas for a few seasons at least by just adjusting their workloads.

So a youth player would have emphasis on physical development

18-21 balanced, physical and technical

21-28, technical emphasis

28-35, balanced training..

Has anyone tried something like this?

[SFraser]

Lyssien,

I don't know if you remember this, but in FM2008, I was trying to determine the effects of just using overall training workloads for deriving optimum benefits. Has anyone in this thread, collated all the results per area (ie.defending, attacking, setpieces, etc) to see what the nett effect is? When I did what I did for FM2008, I was fairly confident that if as a manager you had an overall goal..such as developing world class wingers with a bias towards certain attributes, you could structure someones training and then work on those areas for a few seasons at least by just adjusting their workloads.

So a youth player would have emphasis on physical development

18-21 balanced, physical and technical

21-28, technical emphasis

28-35, balanced training..

Has anyone tried something like this?

Achieving high Overall Training Levels while maintaining a relatively low Overall Schedule Workload seems to be something of an unwritten law in training discussions, an undiscussed consensus opinion if you will. This is a valid approach if Overall Training Level is some form of a modifier rather than some form of display. However the consensus opinion regarding Training Levels is that they display the results of the Schedule Workload Intensity in the relevant areas, modified by a players own application and dedication to training through his Determination and Work Rate Attributes. Where there is a disparity is between Overall Training Level and Overall Schedule Workload. I have shown that a high Overall Schedule Workload does not correspond to a high Overall Training Level.

Training Levels do correspond to Training Progress over time, and Overall Training Level does correspond to Overall Progress over time. Schedule Workload does not correspond to Overall Training Level or Overall Progress. By reducing one individual area of training to zero and redistributing the points elsewhere you can maintain the Overall Workload, increase the intensity of Individual Training Areas, observe a corresponding increase in Individual Levels of Training, observe a corresponding increase in Individual Progress in those areas, but observe a decrease in Overall Training Levels and Overall Training Progress.

Now again the common consensus is the Overall Training Level and Overall Training Progress measures a players Training Levels and Training Progress within his Schedule. I disagree with this. It is clear that by reducing even one Level of Training to Zero that it is impossible to get Overall Training Level and Overall Progress above the final dashed line, irrespective of the Schedule Intensity or the scale of Training Levels and Improvement in each individual Area.

If the boundaries that make up the divisions in the Level and Progress graphs are consistent and absolute and do not change in meaning or what degree they represent then a low Overall Level of Training and Training Progress has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the high Level and Progress of Individual Areas. This is important.

The conclusion is clear. Overall Training Level and Overall Training Progress do not measure the intensity or effectiveness of a Training Schedule. They measure the Level of Training and Improvement of the player as a Complete Player. They are displaying a Players Training Level and Progress in every attribute and in every Area of Training. These bars represent the Level of Training he is recieving and his Progress towards becoming a Total Footballer, developing and improving every possible attribute.

Just to Recap. Overall Training Level does not measure the Overall Level of Training a Player is training at, it measures the Level of Training he is undergoing towards an Overall Improvement in every trainable attribute. Overall Training Level means Training Level towards becoming an Overall Complete Player. Overall Progress does not mean a Players Progress in his particular schedule it means his Progress towards Overall Improvement in every trainable Attribute. It means his Progress towards becoming an Overall Complete Player.

The implications of this statement finally allow us to truly control the rate of attribute increases and their distribution. By reducing Overall Training Level and Overall Training Progress while maintaining the Schedule Workload and increasing Individual Training Levels and Individual Training Progress we will be able to target specific areas for development as we can ensure that training attribute increases count towards Specific Improvement and not Overall Improvement.

The other point is that anyone that has ever tried to maintain high Overall Training Level and high Overall Training Progress will never be able to achieve specific targetted player attribute distribution. If I am correct then the common consensus regarding training levels and improvement have ruined any and every attempt to create a custom schedule for a player.

[Rashidi]

Achieving high Overall Training Levels while maintaining a relatively low Overall Schedule Workload seems to be something of an unwritten law in training discussions, an undiscussed consensus opinion if you will. This is a valid approach if Overall Training Level is some form of a modifier rather than some form of display. However the consensus opinion regarding Training Levels is that they display the results of the Schedule Workload Intensity in the relevant areas, modified by a players own application and dedication to training through his Determination and Work Rate Attributes. Where there is a disparity is between Overall Training Level and Overall Schedule Workload. I have shown that a high Overall Schedule Workload does not correspond to a high Overall Training Level.

Just to Recap. Overall Training Level does not measure the Overall Level of Training a Player is training at, it measures the Level of Training he is undergoing towards an Overall Improvement in every trainable attribute. Overall Training Level means Training Level towards becoming an Overall Complete Player. Overall Progress does not mean a Players Progress in his particular schedule it means his Progress towards Overall Improvement in every trainable Attribute. It means his Progress towards becoming an Overall Complete Player.

The implications of this statement finally allow us to truly control the rate of attribute increases and their distribution. By reducing Overall Training Level and Overall Training Progress while maintaining the Schedule Workload and increasing Individual Training Levels and Individual Training Progress we will be able to target specific areas for development as we can ensure that training attribute increases count towards Specific Improvement and not Overall Improvement.

The other point is that anyone that has ever tried to maintain high Overall Training Level and high Overall Training Progress will never be able to achieve specific targetted player attribute distribution. If I am correct then the common consensus regarding training levels and improvement have ruined any and every attempt to create a custom schedule for a player.

So if I were to understand what you are trying to say...a player who has been set targetted training in say defending for example..and has intense levels for defending and physical but low in others may not necessarily improve as much as someone else even if the overall workload is medium?

[SFraser]

So if I were to understand what you are trying to say...a player who has been set targetted training in say defending for example..and has intense levels for defending and physical but low in others may not necessarily improve as much as someone else even if the overall workload is medium?

No I am saying the precise opposite, that Overall Training Levels and Overall Training Improvement show how a player is working towards improving as an Overall Player.

For example take Christiano Ronaldo. In the last two years how much do you think he has improved Overall? Is he better at tackling and more defensively aware? Does he slice open defences with through balls? Does he work hard to close-down space and win the ball back? As an Overall player how much has he improved? Ronaldo's Overall Improvement in the last two years is quite low, but his Attacking Improvement in the last two years is beyond what anyone could have expected and he is one of the most dangerous players on the planet in attack and one of the most useless in defence.

Attempting to Balance Overall Training Level and Overall Improvement with Individual Training Levels and Individual Training Progress will see a well balanced player that improves slowly in every area. If you ignore Overall Training Levels and Overall Training Progress and focus on a few keys areas at maximum intensity you will get a player that does not improve much Overall but improves rapidly in a few key areas.

In other words the lower Overall Improvement is and the higher Individual Area Improvement is the greater the bias in favourite of that area for attribute increases, rather than any and all areas.

Everyone assumes that Overall Training Level and Overall Training Progress represent the final analysis of a players actual training levels and actual improvement. It doesn't, it represents the bias in favour of General Development.

If you want to set a player a schedule that targets his Defending and Tactics then you want to get his Overall Training Level and Overall Improvement as low as possible while getting his Defending and Tactics Training Levels and Improvement as high as possible. The greater the difference between Overall Improvement and Defending/Tactics Improvement the more attribute increases will be favoured in Defending/Tactics rather than anywhere else. The higher his Overall Improvement the more attribute increases will be spread around his entire set of statistics. The schedule workload will magnify the quantity and rate of attribute increases.

Look at these screenshots:

Observe the extent to which Bale is improving, observe the distribution of his improvements, look at his schedule workload and look at his Overall Training Progress. The same thing is occuring with Jonny Evans too.

[RT--]

Composure's a difficult one, isn't it?

There are plenty who suggest that it's important for defenders (and you can imagine why) but it's lumped in the 'shooting' category, which makes it very difficult to train properly.

There are a couple of quirks of the training categories that alter the way I look for certain players. I always try and find wingers with good crossing stats, because it's a pain training set pieces - I'd rather sign a player with low dribbling, because at least the 'ball control' category develops other useful attributes.

[SFraser]

Composure's a difficult one, isn't it?

There are plenty who suggest that it's important for defenders (and you can imagine why) but it's lumped in the 'shooting' category, which makes it very difficult to train properly.

There are a couple of quirks of the training categories that alter the way I look for certain players. I always try and find wingers with good crossing stats, because it's a pain training set pieces - I'd rather sign a player with low dribbling, because at least the 'ball control' category develops other useful attributes.

Very rarely do stats tend to decrease unless a player is not playing regularly or past his peak. Match practice also seems to increase attributes for younger players, so you can increase certain "set peice" attributes for example by having a young player take plenty of throw ins or free-kicks.

It is dissapointing that Evans' composure has decreased but it is to be expected given the amount of games he is playing and his training regime.

[Lyssien]

Lyssien,

I don't know if you remember this, but in FM2008, I was trying to determine the effects of just using overall training workloads for deriving optimum benefits. Has anyone in this thread, collated all the results per area (ie.defending, attacking, setpieces, etc) to see what the nett effect is? When I did what I did for FM2008, I was fairly confident that if as a manager you had an overall goal..such as developing world class wingers with a bias towards certain attributes, you could structure someones training and then work on those areas for a few seasons at least by just adjusting their workloads.

So a youth player would have emphasis on physical development

18-21 balanced, physical and technical

21-28, technical emphasis

28-35, balanced training..

Has anyone tried something like this?

Yes, I remember the thread and I just took another look to refresh my mind. The assumptons in that thread seem logical enough, on the right track surely.

Currently, I don't run experiments because of not affording the time, but I do pay close attention to how my players react to their training (which I tweak a lot). So what I do is:

1) Imbalance the schedule a bit in favor of the most important attributes to improve for each player.

2) Watch their training arrows and the training levels (updated every week) and further tweak the schedules according to how happy I am with them.

This has been working well so far for me, players generally improve and improve even further in the important attributes. However, this method does not answer the question of optimization (could I be getting these results faster?) and the question of development management (what is better for overall Ability development: balanced schedules, slightly imbalanced schedules, heavily imbalanced schedules or it does not make a difference?)

[ron.e]

Yes, I remember the thread and I just took another look to refresh my mind. The assumptons in that thread seem logical enough, on the right track surely.

Currently, I don't run experiments because of not affording the time, but I do pay close attention to how my players react to their training (which I tweak a lot). So what I do is:

1) Imbalance the schedule a bit in favor of the most important attributes to improve for each player.

2) Watch their training arrows and the training levels (updated every week) and further tweak the schedules according to how happy I am with them.

This has been working well so far for me, players generally improve and improve even further in the important attributes. However, this method does not answer the question of optimization (could I be getting these results faster?) and the question of development management (what is better for overall Ability development: balanced schedules, slightly imbalanced schedules, heavily imbalanced schedules or it does not make a difference?)

I like this idea. But when you say balance, physical and technical, how best would you implement this in a training schedule? Thanks

[ron.e]

Does anyone know what stat levels are needed for each division? premiership 16+ championship 14+ for example. Thanks

[Rashidi]

Yes, I remember the thread and I just took another look to refresh my mind. The assumptons in that thread seem logical enough, on the right track surely.

Currently, I don't run experiments because of not affording the time, but I do pay close attention to how my players react to their training (which I tweak a lot). So what I do is:

1) Imbalance the schedule a bit in favor of the most important attributes to improve for each player.

2) Watch their training arrows and the training levels (updated every week) and further tweak the schedules according to how happy I am with them.

This has been working well so far for me, players generally improve and improve even further in the important attributes. However, this method does not answer the question of optimization (could I be getting these results faster?) and the question of development management (what is better for overall Ability development: balanced schedules, slightly imbalanced schedules, heavily imbalanced schedules or it does not make a difference?)

Yeah seems like the same way I do it and it has been a successful method for me as well. I divide my routines based on DCs, FBs, DMC, AMC, Wingers, Strikers, TM, Keepers and Youth. If we assume that no player will ever improve in ALL attributes, it follows that you should be able to target training based on roles and personalities. I may move a player from one schedule to another if I feel he needs more defensive training, however in most cases there is a clear division in roles and responsibilities.

Last season I ran a test where I created these schedules and then just adjusted the Overall Intensity every quarter.

Q1 - Intensive

Q2 - Heavy

Q3 - Medium

Q4 - Medium - Holiday

The overall benefits were apparent and players showed improvements in their CORE areas of speciality. I rather get a 2 point increase in dribbling for a winger than a 1 point in dribbling and 1 in finishing. I also practised NEVER taking anyone off training. Even if a player is injured the game automatically takes this into account. This method doesn't give me a clear answer on whether this is an optimised way of doing things either.

[phnompenhandy]

rashidi - I'm astonished that you could put everyone on intensive training with no ill effects. Is it really true that this is 'safe' at the beginning of the season?

[Rio_V]

Terrific thread. Got me re-interested in training. A few questions:

1. I noticed you deleted the Slider Mechanics section from your original post. Do you still think it generally applies?

2. I noticed with Bale's training that you have Shooting and Set Pieces all the way to the left. Has your experience demonstrated that players won't decrease in attributes even if their training is almost non-existent in those areas? Also, b/c he can apparently deal with it, will you now leave him on a Very Heavy training schedule throughout the season? Doesnt this increase the risk of a training injury?

3. If you have an older player that you want to just "balance" on training. Would that basically mean that you just want them set on all levels at about 8-10?

Thanks, again. This is great stuff.

[SFraser]

This has been working well so far for me, players generally improve and improve even further in the important attributes. However, this method does not answer the question of optimization (could I be getting these results faster?) and the question of development management (what is better for overall Ability development: balanced schedules, slightly imbalanced schedules, heavily imbalanced schedules or it does not make a difference?)

What is best for Overall Improvement is clearly a balanced schedule, but depending on how CA and PA is calculated this may not equal the highest rate of Ability improvement. If CA and PA are calculated by core positional attributes then the highest rate of Ability improvement is a schedule that provides the highest rate of attribute increases in the smallest number of training sectors. This leads to a low Overall Training Level and low Overall Progress level, but if you interperate these columns to mean a players training level and progress across all his attributes then this is ideal.

The overall benefits were apparent and players showed improvements in their CORE areas of speciality. I rather get a 2 point increase in dribbling for a winger than a 1 point in dribbling and 1 in finishing. I also practised NEVER taking anyone off training. Even if a player is injured the game automatically takes this into account. This method doesn't give me a clear answer on whether this is an optimised way of doing things either.

This version of Football Manager has lead me to the conclusion that Match Performances, Playing Time and reaction to events have a profound impact on the rate of improvement of a player. As stated in my original post it is my view that training intensity acts as minor modifier to improvement rates but has a cumulative and perhaps multiplicative influence on other improvement factors.

For example this week saw me play and defeat my closest title rivals by 2 goals to 1 away from home. I have a Winger that was a regular starter at the start of the season but has been left out of the starting lineup 3 times in my last 5 matches without me talking to him or the media. He did not play in that match and has just improved in his Determination, Aggression and Workrate along with a few ball control and aerobic attributes. Likewise 2 of the 4 players that have played 18 of my 21 matches this season have increased in Influence by one point this week. These two players are under 23 and the other 2 players are over 26.

Either there exists a vast quantity of coincidence in my particular save or there are a vast quantity of logical and fundamentally important relationships between the activites of players within a club and the details of their development. I think it highly unlikely that specifics can be predicted even if the base mechanics are revealed, but conversely general principles will hold true once they are understood, and a manager can have expectations of reactions to even subtle changes.

As to the question of optimisation, my opinion would be that there is no catch-all method of optimisation of development. Optimal development will be profoundly influenced not only by the player, but by the squad, the managers decisions, and the shape of the season. You can maintain high intensity training to give yourself the greatest baseline rate of development but the actual factors that will modify this into large gains or large decreases or a midline between the two will depend on non-training factors.

1. I noticed you deleted the Slider Mechanics section from your original post. Do you still think it generally applies?

The most important factors of the slider mechanics in my opinion is the ratio between different training areas and the Overall Schedule Intensity. Because factors outside of training have such a large role to play in actual development then doing training by-the-numbers and aiming for precise increases based solely upon slider position is in my opinion fallacious. The ratio between the sliders will determine the distribution of attributes that are gained, but the gaining of attributes is a process that takes much more into consideration than training alone.

2. I noticed with Bale's training that you have Shooting and Set Pieces all the way to the left. Has your experience demonstrated that players won't decrease in attributes even if their training is almost non-existent in those areas? Also, b/c he can apparently deal with it, will you now leave him on a Very Heavy training schedule throughout the season? Doesnt this increase the risk of a training injury?

I find with regards to Schedule Intensity that the risk of injury in training is reduced to a minimum if a player is slowly introduced to successivly higher levels of training from lower levels. This is especially true during the Pre-Season where every player has been away from training for alteast a couple of weeks, barring the occassional discrepancy. I am approaching the peak of the Winter months and I am planning to experiment with intensities to see if the only downside of high intensity is indeed increased injury, or if I am infact overworking those players that play regularly.

As for the first part of your question, I find that attribute decreases are profoundly influenced by playing time and age. In short with no training in Set Peices and very little Match Practice then the modifier for Bales set peice attributes will be negative, and they will decrease. Conversely with no training in set peices and regular match practice the modifiers on Bales set peice attributes will be either zero or a small net gain for those he actually uses often. Bale is young and his CA is much less than his PA. This acts as a positive modifer that can be enhanced dramatically or reduced to a small negative depending on circumstances. Older players are the opposite, they have a tendency to decline rapidly and improve very rarely.

3. If you have an older player that you want to just "balance" on training. Would that basically mean that you just want them set on all levels at about 8-10?

If the difference between the sliders is 0 then in theory this should spread attribute changes equally amongst all his attributes. Whether or not the distribution of change is infact equal will depend upon a variety of external factors influencing the rate of change of those attributes. Age alone seems to have a massive impact on the decline of physical attributes so this might be a large negative modifier that is only kept overwhelmingly biased by balanced training sliders. I cannot say for absolutely certain what the case is, but in my experience physical attributes are the quickest to drop and the hardest to maintain in an older player.

[Rashidi]

rashidi - I'm astonished that you could put everyone on intensive training with no ill effects. Is it really true that this is 'safe' at the beginning of the season?

In FM2008, I once had a light intensity schedule for players and started to gradually wind them up, problem was I had a large number of unfit players. This season, I decided to up intensity early on in preseason, and by the first week I'd drop it down to a "Very Heavy" schedule. This time around...it ain't that bad...

As in all things you need balance, my style of training has always been to see it drop in intensity around April. Which would mean they are approaching end of season in reasonable condition. Then when they take that break, its something like 3-4weeks?...once they get back its upping intensity. Seems to work fine for me...and I've noticed, I'm one of the few guys who has been complaining about injuries. The average team should get around 30 injuries a season...I average around there..sometimes lower and most players start the season 100% match fit

[Cityull]

Really good thread, it took me about an hour to read it all but i've finished now and it does make you think. most of what is said is pretty obvious but jumps out at you when you read it from someone else

[Cityull]

I do have a question about compsure training as i don't want to 'waste' training when i could use it better in other areas.

Composure is in shooting, and I noticed sfraser uses no shooting for jonny evans training. can someone explain this to me? I always have used shooting training for all outfield players but if theres no need then great

[Dirty_ACE]

Excellent thread guys, but I don't think I'm really understanding the training aspect still. Here's a screen shot of one of my fullbacks:

His overall training level is pretty much maxed out, is this good? Is this the effort that he's putting into his training?

I've also noticed a big decrease in my team's performance this season, and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with training. I checked all my players and they're all happy about their training, no problems, but the performances are not satisfactory. I have changed schedules during the summer to ones that have higher physical training for all positions. Could this be the reason why they're not playing well?

If you look at the screen shot I posted, does the level of physical training seem too high?

[catafan]

It's always nice to have so much discuss here.

To simply put, I don't agree with the OP to some points and here is my opinion:

==Training==

In FM09 Training schedule only (or little more than) shapes the player's attributes which are restricted by player's CA. For example, if you want your player to have high Pace, give him intense aerobic training which will take more share in CA distribution (ignore his unhappiness). If you are not happy that some attribute of a player has decreased, just increase the corresponding notch by one or two clicks further, no matter what position it was at (there is no such rule that how many notches ensure an attribute won't drop).

If you want your players to keep getting green arrows fast, try to boost their CA fast, rather than adjust your training schedule.

==CA increase==

To increase CA quickly, the player needs

(1) To be young, a player over 24 can hardly boost their CA significantly.

(2) competitive match practice For under 18 kids, don't play them too much in first team matches, barely better. For 18+ players, the more matches the better. And for all, the higher score the better, the higher quality of match the better. Non-competitive matches can only boost players' CA to a limited value (~145 for top club first team, ~135 for reserve team). If you don't give your player who has a high CA enough competitive match time, his CA decreases.

(3) Professionalism and Ambition. The two most important traits for a player to grow his CA or keep his CA from decreasing. Obviously the higher the better. Can't say which one is more important than the other yet, but IMHO Workrate has little effect.

Thanks for reading.

[Lyssien]

Ron,

I just make a schedule intuitively, then watch the training arrows and tweak accordingly.

Cityull,

Composure is important for everybody, but sometimes you need to sacrifice something in order to gain something else. Shooting is one of the obvious regimes you can sacrifice for defenders.

Dirty Ace,

There is nothing wrong with your training and your physical training is fine. No, your results are not down to training, training only affects matches indirectly, by changing the players attributes.

Catafan,

Welcome to the discussion. I agree with most you are saying (I don't know about Work Rate because I have not tested it). I perfectly agree on your disagreement about "minimum notches", as I have already stated before.

But are we sure that training does not affect overall development at all? Sfraser believes that overall workload affects this and I tend to agree with that. If overall workload made no difference, that would mean that the default general schedule could have everything on zero notches!

[catafan]

Catafan,

But are we sure that training does not affect overall development at all? Sfraser believes that overall workload affects this and I tend to agree with that. If overall workload made no difference, that would mean that the default general schedule could have everything on zero notches!

I would like to say the Overall workload probably does affect CA improvement but at a very limited degree (that's why I said "only or little more than shaping attributes").

If you sign a free player (has no club, hence no training at all) and put him in training he often has his CA increased by a couple of points in a short time, but thereafter the CA increase stops unless he begin to have match experience. In another word increasing the overall training workload is more like a one-off approach to boost CA, but won't affect the speed of the long-term development. Since most of us give players a fixed amount of overall training workload (maxium amount in a range of acceptable injury rate I assume), I cannot see there is much for us to do regarding changing the overall training workload.

Certainly the high amount of overall workload increase the player attributes faster than a low one, but remember the attributes are restricted by CA. If a bulk of green arrows are temporarily brought by a high training workload while the CA remains unchanged, they will disappear or red arrows will appear on some attributes to compensate.

Cheers

[SFraser]

The minimum notch concept is something I also disagree with and have since removed from my original post, however SI have explained that training level graph heights do correspond to a number of attribute increases. They did not explain the time period nor the extent of the modifiers. In theory the minimum notch idea is sound but only if you specifically know the exact numbers and the exact formulae to use, which no one that would contribute to a discussion does know to my knowledge, and is likely to involve too many variables to be of much predictive use anyway, hence the theory is for all intents and purposes practically flawed.

==CA increase==

To increase CA quickly, the player needs

(1) To be young, a player over 24 can hardly boost their CA significantly.

(2) competitive match practice For under 18 kids, don't play them too much in first team matches, barely better. For 18+ players, the more matches the better. And for all, the higher score the better, the higher quality of match the better. Non-competitive matches can only boost players' CA to a limited value (~145 for top club first team, ~135 for reserve team). If you don't give your player who has a high CA enough competitive match time, his CA decreases.

(3) Determination and Ambition. The two most important traits for a player to grow his CA or keep his CA from decreasing. Obviously the higher the better. Can't say which one is more important than the other yet, but IMHO Workrate has little effect.

You are on the right track with this but it is far from a complete overview of the factors involved in development. There is not only a compound effect from these factors but there is also a compound effect with training intensity and there are relationships between specific attribute increases in reaction to specific actions and events, moreso than the simple increase in personality related attributes in response to a fine that everyone is aware of.

Age alone is a complex factor affecting not only the maximum potential rate of CA change, but also whether that change is positive or negative, and modifying the rate of change and the intensity of change required for positive or negative growth of specific attribute fields independantly.

If I were to assume the mechanics of development based upon what I have seen I would state that attributes have a natural decay rate that is different for each field of attributes atleast, perhaps different for each specific attribute. Age works as an non linear modifier on the independant decay rates of fields/attributes whereas training intensity and perhaps every coded action and reaction ingame work as linear modifiers counter-acting this decay rate in the vast majority of circumstances. PA is the limiting factor of positive development but as age increases it becomes increasingly difficult to produce the quantity of positive modifers on attribute decay rates to improve a players attributes, and eventually the effects of age overwhelm positive modifers and the player can no longer reach his PA under any means and must inevitably decline.

A simplified metaphor would be a bar that naturally reduces over time but gets filled up over time through actions, reactions and events. When the bar is full the attribute goes up 1 point. When the bar is empty the attribute goes down 1 point. Age will eventually modify the natural decay rate to produce overwhelming reductions in many attributes.

Catafan,

Welcome to the discussion. I agree with most you are saying (I don't know about Work Rate because I have not tested it). I perfectly agree on your disagreement about "minimum notches", as I have already stated before.

But are we sure that training does not affect overall development at all? Sfraser believes that overall workload affects this and I tend to agree with that. If overall workload made no difference, that would mean that the default general schedule could have everything on zero notches!

Work Rate should act as a modifier on the extent to which training improves attributes. There is no doubt in my mind that training does improve attributes.

However there is still a grey area, for if the ratio of training controls the ratio of all/most attribute increases then the ratio of training cannot simply add a minor quantity of positive modifier to development. Either training works in two ways, as both the controller of distribution ratio and at the same time contributing a small increase as per that ratio, or the training ratio affects only the ratio of attribute increases and the Overall Workload controls the rate of increase training contributes. I favour the latter in theory but have no proof that it is true.

[Cityull]

sfraser- how do you find having very high workload?

[Rashidi]

Ron,

I just make a schedule intuitively, then watch the training arrows and tweak accordingly.

Cityull,

Composure is important for everybody, but sometimes you need to sacrifice something in order to gain something else. Shooting is one of the obvious regimes you can sacrifice for defenders.

Dirty Ace,

There is nothing wrong with your training and your physical training is fine. No, your results are not down to training, training only affects matches indirectly, by changing the players attributes.

Catafan,

Welcome to the discussion. I agree with most you are saying (I don't know about Work Rate because I have not tested it). I perfectly agree on your disagreement about "minimum notches", as I have already stated before.

But are we sure that training does not affect overall development at all? Sfraser believes that overall workload affects this and I tend to agree with that. If overall workload made no difference, that would mean that the default general schedule could have everything on zero notches!

Fact about FM is that you need to manage the number of games a player takes part in a season. Of that I'm almost certain. You can set up the ideal training schedule, but if you don't bleed a young 18 year old into senior matches, then his overall rate of development will be low. I think we all agree on this point.

For the best development rate in terms of age..we should be looking at:

<18- Youth matches, and if possible loan periods with teams that will play him in as many as half the matches a season

>18 & <21 Premiership Player must be on loan to a championship side where he is an important player, or you need to ensure that he plays as often as he can for the senior side, even if he were to come on for less than 45 mins,

>21, should be a squad player whom you give at least half the season matches to play (coming on as a sub means he needs to play at least 22 matches.

Here I am focusing only on the development of players...an area that has sparked my interest lately....I'm fairly sure I'm threading on familiar ground for many, sometimes its good to rehash old stuff

[higgins]

Ron,

...training only affects matches indirectly, by changing the players attributes.

Not only, imo if you overtrain a player, he could be not well fit or fatigued, so his performance on the pitch could drop down, he could get an injury...etc...

Then a training regime too hard could let your player unhappy and their performance will drop again.

Or not?

[ron.e]

Not only, imo if you overtrain a player, he could be not well fit or fatigued, so his performance on the pitch could drop down, he could get an injury...etc...

Then a training regime too hard could let your player unhappy and their performance will drop again.

Or not?

I decided to have as high workload as the player can take. If he becomes unhappy i will lessen it until he becomes happy. I want to train my youngster, who is a DC, to have more composure. How much of a benefit will it be if i put him on shooting training? Thanks

[Rio_V]

Question regarding "unhappy with training workload." I had been under the impression that training levels, settings and player reactions reset every week. I had set my players on new training schedules and watched as they were able to deal with a pretty intense level of training. Over a month later, a few players are now "unhappy." I had thought that their unhappiness would have shown up a lot sooner. So, has anyone figured out when a player decides they are "unhappy with the training workload?"

Btw, I am very happy to report that I have schedules on heavy and very heavy and have yet to see a single injury from training or that would suggest to me that it has something to do with the workload for a player.