(FM21) Gustavo Potterini’s Fondazione Tre: 5-2-3 | 3-4-3 (OK it's really Graham Potter)

[CaptCanuck]

Just having a little fun with the title there, to make it sound more snazzy :-)

But yes what we’re having a go at here is using Potter’s work at Ostersunds and Brighton to build out a tactic, hopefully have some nice passages of play, and win matches.

 

What We Aim To Do

 

This 5-2-3/3-4-3 or however you want to call it, at it's simplest focuses on:

• playing out of the back with CBs happy to be on the ball
• a midfield pivot capable of connecting CBs, WBs, and attacking front 3
• a pair of WBs that can provide width and attack the box
• a front three that can interchange positions, pressure the opposition, and score goals
• the ability to press and play a higher line, while also being able to drop to a back 5

 

Graham Potter is an interesting chap; through The Open University and some smaller roles he first focused on the sports science and social aspects of the game, then he did the hard graft through the tiers of Swedish football, giving the Ostersunds supporters some incredible European nights. A cup of coffee in Swansea and then onto the sunny South coast with Brighton.

 

 

I’m a Chris Hughton fan, but will readily admit his football isn’t something we maybe want to emulate here or watch if a club has good players who are capable of more. So Potter has brought that more to the Seagulls, if it’s currently only in the style of play and not necessarily the results. So let’s try and apply a flavour of it to FM and add the results component too.

 

While I may have bumped Graham out of the Brighton job, we’re using this as our mantra:

“Players that are brave, that aren’t afraid to make mistakes. That can get on the ball and show courage and really try to enjoy their football. If the players are enjoying their football, there’s a chance that the supporters will enjoy it as well. And that’s how you grow and develop as a club.”

 

Graham Potter breaks down the Galatassaray match with “The Coaches Voice”: https://youtu.be/sfW_BSsChp4

 

As you see if you watch them play, and as we want to do, this means no DLPs or APs or Trequiristas that the team expects to dominate the ball and create openings, but a side full of players happy to be on the ball. In FM terms that translates into largely generic roles for players with high decisions, determination, off the ball, vision, and teamwork.

 

More TIs in possession than I’ve used before, provide the framework in which these keen and clued up players will execute. PIs applied to some roles, such as roam from position, move into channels, and more aggressive passing, gives us the flexibility and dynamism, so that the players aren’t simply following orders and predictable.

 

Tactic (FM20 base tactic, FM21 updated one bit further down)

 

Team Instructions

 

In Possession

• Shorter passing - we want to be on the ball and work triangles and not force things in general terms.
• Work ball into box - whether the attack comes through the middle or after being kicked out to the WBs, we want it all coming together in and around the box, which marries up with being fairly narrow and having a front 3 that will typically be in there, looking for their own chances or occupying the back 4, so others can have a go.
• Be more disciplined - I’d tried empty tactics, with a few TIs and PIs and while they’ve worked great against middling teams, I’ve wondered if maybe against the better sides, if just the roles and mentality weren’t enough for my players to go on. So with this, the baseline is now do as you're told, with freedom given to some players via their role or PIs to create the dynamism and flexibility in possession and attack.
• Focus play through the middle - If the BPDs come to the double pivot, it’s their job to push or pass. With one of them ball carrying focused and the other ball distribution focused. With In-Out-In or In-In-In play. There should be a mid wide left and deep wide right outlet at all times or the chance to return to the BPDs. The Andre-Nenem partnership is where I like to think our class is, when the form of the WBs and front 3 varies.
• Higher Tempo - let’s get the ball zipping around shall we.
• Fairly narrow - WBs will be wide enough as it is and with only 2 in central midfield (plus the PF dropping) it shouldn’t be overcrowded. And with shorter passing and up tempo play and lots of one-two able players we want the ball zipping along. It also leaves us in better counter pressing position.

 

In Transition

• Distribute to Centre-backs - this is fundamental to the build up play
• Distribute quickly - let’s be peppy and positive
• Counter-press - we’re going to lose the ball sometimes, let’s get it back

 

Out of possession

• Higher DL - higher but not too high. We’re not a counter attacking team, so setting it here works.
• Higher DOE - we have a split block, with the front 3 applying more urgent pressure.

 

PIs

 

• BPDs - Get wider in possession. This is key in getting reasonable triangles between the BPD-CM-WB when playing out from the back. And if nothing is on, they can recycle to the GK or play into the CD, who then has the opposite BPD, GK, or either CM. And once the ball is going forward the wider BPDs give those same CMs and WBs a better outlet for recycling. Keeping that width pulls the oppositions AM/ST/CM further away from the middle we’re looking to play through.
• CML - Roam, move into channels, and dribble more gives possession and build up an option other than pinging it around and with high quality technically proficient players in that role, maybe they can skip past a defender or two
• CMR - More direct passing. We want someone who will throw it crossfield, try a through ball, or otherwise stretch the defense and the areas they have to cover.
• Front 3 - Roam from position for the wide two. Let them find space and drag defenders to create space. The PF will already be dropping deep, so setting him to roam is not something we need to do to create movement.

 

Concessions to FM

 

The main one is not having 3 BPDs across the back. Especially at Brighton, Dunk playing in the middle will launch forward balls whenever possible. But for our Brighton, we’re leaving a solid CD in the middle, who will still be on the ball but more to keep it ticking over amongst the back 4 and 2 midfielders.

 

Less a concession and more a limitation? Not being able to selectively press or have strong side/weak side locks easily and quickly means we just go with a straight up 3 man press, where normally they have a 4th player get involved depending on where the opposition sets up and what side the ball is on.

 

Note: This OP is FM20 based - FM21 tweaks and impressions start Dec 7 post.
UPDATE Jan 11: FM21 tactic post here - it's just further down the page, but though a link might be helpful:

 

Results

 

So far so good?

Now we’re hardly the 2020 incarnation of the Seagulls: we’re the 2027 version, which means a preseason prediction of 4th. But in the moneybags Premier League, where Liverpool or Chelsea have spent the last three seasons buying our best player for increasing ‘record fees’ each time, and Burnley - since relegated - can sign a 33yr old Neymar, there’s always more to do to stay at/near the top.

 

Conceding only 3 goals from open play shows the base defense is sound and conversely that maybe we need to tighten up our set piece defense.

Going forward, joint top scorers shows we’ve got the goals in us that IRL Brighton lacks. But then IRL Brighton also doesn’t have 3 young Brazilians and 2 Argentinians plucked from South America thanks to some excellent scouting.

 

With ½ a season left, it’s all to play for. And I’ll follow up with some examples of play and take a look at some key partnerships, when I’m next back playing FM in the next couple evenings.

If anyone has any observations or experience running a back 3 or 5 that could further improve play, let’s have it :-)

 

Edit - thanks to @Djeon36 for sending me down this path, when I was getting ready to resign and take the RB Leipzig job, after having enough of trying to get an AMC working.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by CaptCanuck
added fm21 to title

[Nix0n]

drop fmf 

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Nix0n said:

drop fmf 

If you are looking for a plug'n'play tactic, you should better look over here. 

[Experienced Defender]

14 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

Potter has brought that more to the Seagulls, if it’s currently only in the style of play and not necessarily the results

I absolutely love how BHA play under Potter. Results will come (although they already aren't bad either) 

[Djeon36]

Hey this is insane! didn't expect that you would go all the way with this idea!! Great post going to definitely give this a try. Potter's Brighton this year is really interesting tactically and its awesome to see that you have done so much research on it. Do you also add any PI for the WB? I assume that by giving the BPD the stay wider PI it might overlap with the WB positions?

[CaptCanuck]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I absolutely love how BHA play under Potter. Results will come (although they already aren't bad either) 

Yes if you watch their matches with the final 3rd of the screen covered it looks really promising, lol, they just get stuck once they get down to the 18yd box.  They did so well during the restart, hopefully they figure that out again, as they cannot be having matches like the WBA one too often.

[CaptCanuck]

2 hours ago, Djeon36 said:

Hey this is insane! didn't expect that you would go all the way with this idea!! Great post going to definitely give this a try. Potter's Brighton this year is really interesting tactically and its awesome to see that you have done so much research on it. Do you also add any PI for the WB? I assume that by giving the BPD the stay wider PI it might overlap with the WB positions?

Thanks! I tried a CWB on the right in preseason, but in reality it didn't make things better. With roam from position hardcoded, they came inside too much when it wasn't warranted and overly packed the middle. Maybe a CWB (like an IWB) would work with a W instead of an IF, but I wanted to stick with the front 3 being in/around the 18yd box. With the right-sided WB(a) when the defense compresses around that front 3, the WB can make late runs into the box for shot attempts or far post crosses. The video quality is crap here and the spectators disappeared (like a Covid match), but this is an example of that movement:

But there are no special PIs for that R-WB(a) just the defaults. The L-WB(s) I have left as default, with the exception of checking one of the crossing options, but I've forgotten which I will check later. The idea being he's less aggressive (still a WB though) and could ping crosses from the depth of the 18yd box or deeper - which occurs in the vid too - as opposed to being on attack and running down to the corner flag.

The WB who scored is an attacking winger I am retraining. His 3 defensive attributes were 9ish IIRC, so OK enough to put him out there. He says he doesn't like being retrained, but he's got 4-5 goals and assists so far this season, so tough. But even my 5th WB who can cover both sides and is actually playing a fair bit due to injuries and internationals has 4-5 goals too from that right side.

Edited October 27, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[zabyl]

20 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

CMR - More direct passing. We want someone who will throw it crossfield, try a through ball, or otherwise stretch the defense and the areas they have to cover.

Direct passing PI can be added lo LB (assuming if he has good passing, technique and decisions) who is on a support role behind an IFa on the left. Maybe this can make play more predictable and effect build-up badly or can increase the variety of attacking plays.

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, zabyl said:

Direct passing PI can be added lo LB (assuming if he has good passing, technique and decisions) who is on a support role behind an IFa on the left. Maybe this can make play more predictable and effect build-up badly or can increase the variety of attacking plays.

Thanks for that. Ya that was the idea with adding the crossing PI that's not on for the WB-S. I will take a look at the general passing aggression for him as well.

I've got one WB who can pull it off, the other guy is excellent defensively and physically, but might not quite be the smoothest passer, so it's something I could turn on/off depending who is starting.

[NotSoSpecialOne]

Just idle curiosity based on your CWB comment about it coming inside; is there a reason behind the WBs being in that strata instead of in the defensive midfield strata?

Tactic looks great and the results do too. 

[CaptCanuck]

5 hours ago, NotSoSpecialOne said:

Just idle curiosity based on your CWB comment about it coming inside; is there a reason behind the WBs being in that strata instead of in the defensive midfield strata?

Tactic looks great and the results do too. 

Thanks @NotSoSpecialOne :-) They get up the pitch enough from the defensive strata I didn't see any need to move them to the DM level. And I like a solid back 5 in defense, when we're out of possession. I tried the DM strata a few times in preseason and I didn't see any real gains during the attacking phase. We still get to what is effectively a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2/3-4-2-1 going forward.

Here's an example of a fairly typical recycle from a positional POV. This is from an FA Cup 1/4 final last night - ball has gone from well in Man City's half,  back to the GK and now we're starting to push forward again. You can see the RWB still in the opponents half and the LWB still pretty high up

I did a video of this excellent team goal, but the vid quality is a bit crap, unless it's on 1080p and you expand the screen, so will try another rip tonight.

Edited October 28, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[NotSoSpecialOne]

1 hour ago, CaptCanuck said:

Thanks @NotSoSpecialOne :-) They get up the pitch enough from the defensive strata I didn't see any need to move them to the DM level. And I like a solid back 5 in defense, when we're out of possession. I tried the DM strata a few times in preseason and I didn't see any real gains during the attacking phase. We still get to what is effectively a 3-4-3 or 3-4-1-2/3-4-2-1 going forward.

I think the only real gain is that a CWB wouldn't be inclined to drift inside in that strata, as you have the CM(Su) otherwise occupying the space inside he'd be drifting into. Just tangently musing; the logic of your tactical choice makes plenty of sense to me.

 

 

[lfds89]

Based on the Coaches' Voice video alone, I would say:

- Wingers are AP (probably with At duty). He wants to create space for them, and have them receive the ball in that space in front of defence. And probably as RCAM and LCAM. Even defensively he says he only wants them to cover the half-space.

- Both wider CDs on St duty. He wants them to be aggressive on their wingers cutting inside

- Possibly with Overlaps on both sides, but I don't know if that won't slow down too much the attacks.

The rest would probably be exactly like what you have.

[Bankyyy]

Really interesting! Always liked the idea of a 343, but never managed to get it to work. Although a different formation, I wondered if you'd seen this article about a double diamond (https://theathletic.co.uk/2165721/2020/10/28/atalanta-ajax-analysis-champions-league-michael-cox/).

Do you see any examples of that in game play?

 

[CaptCanuck]

3 hours ago, Bankyyy said:

Really interesting! Always liked the idea of a 343, but never managed to get it to work. Although a different formation, I wondered if you'd seen this article about a double diamond (https://theathletic.co.uk/2165721/2020/10/28/atalanta-ajax-analysis-champions-league-michael-cox/).

Do you see any examples of that in game play?

 

Thanks for the link. I can regularly get the initial bit - BPD/WB/CM/IF diamond - on the left or right side in the build up when playing out of the back (you can actually see it in the screenshot above). It's limited to one side at a time though, as the other CM and the PF will start coming over to the ballside, so the opposite side width is really only held together by the WB.

Of course after the BPD releases the ball that's effectively him done, as he won't progress much past the centre line, unless one of the players goes back to him when their progress is stunted or their is a loose ball situation. I occasionally see one of the back 3 carry it up, when the defense gives them space to do so when marking the WB/CM, but it's rare. They really want to stay at the centre circle.

Edited October 29, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

6 hours ago, lfds89 said:

Based on the Coaches' Voice video alone, I would say:

- Wingers are AP (probably with At duty). He wants to create space for them, and have them receive the ball in that space in front of defence. And probably as RCAM and LCAM. Even defensively he says he only wants them to cover the half-space.

- Both wider CDs on St duty. He wants them to be aggressive on their wingers cutting inside

- Possibly with Overlaps on both sides, but I don't know if that won't slow down too much the attacks.

The rest would probably be exactly like what you have.

Ya apart from the Arsenal matches, I am not that familiar with his Swedish work, I should take more of a look on Youtube once the current season is out. As the wider pair of Brighton's front 3 will get narrower (like RCAM/LCAM) when the middle guy drops or just stays deeper full stop, like with Lalanna and it's more a front 2, but they don't act like APs. But I do like trying the idea of...
    PF
AM AM
... in a 2nd tactic.

I hadn't thought about putting the left CB on ST too - mainly cause I just hadn't thought much about them after the season got rolling - I can had ST to the left guy too and see how that plays out. We get enough outside go-forwarding from the WBs naturally that the overlaps isn't necessary.

Thanks!

[CaptCanuck]

This was the goal I screenshotted above:

Good example of things working well, starting with a loss of possession, regaining possession, recycling to the keeper, back to the L-BPD, to the L-WB, to the L-IF, into the middle for the two CMs, over to the R-WB, and then back to the L-IF.

Admittedly, City's RB totally fell asleep, but the things I hope the tactic will do - CB making the correct decision - getting into the MF pair - having the opponents back 4 collapse into protect against the attackers, leaving the wings open. We don't have examples of this every match; however, in this match we ended up with two and here's the second:

This starts from the goal kick, and features the PF dropping deep to link up. Again it's about getting the opposition ball watching and then get the WB in there, this time to score instead of assist.

Of course when the defense is more clued up, then what? First, that is a problem and can lead to the equivalent of a motorway pileup with half the players on the pitch in the 18yd box and leading to no space and blocked shots. Second we do occasionally work around that with more patient build up and I need to dig up an example of that.

Coming down the closing stretch to the season, we're certainly not flying like the first half, but winning stuff is still on.

[CaptCanuck]

Just one more example, as we finished up the season. This example shows another quality team goal, where the L-IF dropping to take the pass from the BPD - which is the ½ space Potter talks about in the vid above - before laying it off to the L-CM, who then has the PF drop to support him, drag defenders out, and then kick it out for the cross. Enabling the R-IF to be one on one against the leftback for a headed goal. Bravo the L-IF does have the comes deep player trait, which influences his propensity to help out.

Season's End

So how did the season end? Obviously not every goal was a cracker and not every chance was a conversion. April in particular was an awful run of league matches against largely middling to relegation fodder opponents where we went 1-2-2 (4 scored | 6 against) and temporarily gave up first place and you got that feeling you were getting ‘FMed’. But a clutch final 3 matches wrapped things up and we ended up with a domestic treble. Generally goals were down in the second half, but on the season we only allowed 9 goals from open play which was excellent and 18 from dead balls... what's the opposite of excellent?

On the tactic front, we solely used the 5-2-3 formation and tactics above, except for one match against Lyon when we were down to 9 men and the 2nd ½ of one leg against Bayern when nothing was working. Otherwise except for mentality and role duties nothing was changed and we went every match and competition with it.

TBF, while the previous season was rubbish, two season's ago we also did the domestic treble. But still doing it with a completely different tactic from the last one was cool :-) Now it's time to press on with it.

Next Steps:

• Figure out what needs to be done to break down teams when things get too packed in the box. We had a number of matches with lots of blocked shots, especially when we have the front 3 all in and around the box against good defensive sides.
• Add new back 3/back 5 tactics. The two in mind are a low block version of the current one or at least a mid block and one where the front 3 is two up front with an AM behind. Brighton have used that on at least one occasion with Llanana in that AM/SS/F9 spot
• Look at if there is a way for the double pivot to properly pivot, as sometimes they stay on the same level, making them easier to mark. In one of the new tactics I am going to use non-generic roles and see how that goes.

Edited November 1, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

Two more examples, then I need to put on my DoF hat on and work through preseason player moves before getting to those tactics :-)

Traffic Jam

Here is a good defensive side, closing me down, and my IF decides against passing it back out, has nothing else on, takes a 0% shot and gives up a goal kick. In lieu of being more aware and patient and going back outside, is there a way to mitigate it or maybe I need the patience and know that not every move will come off.

Good Diamond Play

As @Bankyyy asked about above, this is about as good as that can get, before the BPD gives up the ghost and won't get much further forward. Here we see the BPD go to the WB and move, to be available for another pass when the defender pressed the WB, the IF maintains the point of the diamond, and the CM trails the defender to narrow it up and provide an easy pass once it goes back to the BPD:

Once the ball gets to the CM, the WB can start moving down the touch line, to progress the diamond further up the pitch, and offer an outlet once the CM passes to the IF. Unfortunately, the IF decided to peg it to the 18yd box and take a speculative 20yd shot, when an easy pass was there out to the WB.

Edited November 1, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[davidbarros2]

Anyone gave this a go for the FM 21 edition?

I do love (at times) the football that Graham Potter is trying to implement, and tho the front 3 not play 100% the same as IRL, this tactic plays some lovely decent football and grinding out great results.

@CaptCanuckmany thanks for your contribution 

[CaptCanuck]

2 hours ago, davidbarros2 said:

Anyone gave this a go for the FM 21 edition?

I do love (at times) the football that Graham Potter is trying to implement, and tho the front 3 not play 100% the same as IRL, this tactic plays some lovely decent football and grinding out great results.

@CaptCanuckmany thanks for your contribution 

Thanks @davidbarros2

I've been trying to give it a go through all the bugs and other issues with FM21. I'm playing as Brighton - and except for a new LWB and Ajer from Celtic, I've been using the current Brighton squad. I've only played a handful of matches, but it looks promising (or at least not worse) so far, some quick observations:

• Lallana and Bissouma are doing a good job in MF and there is more central play than FM20
• Maupay definitely drops more out of the PF role than FM20, I need to watch more matches, but I am wondering if PF(At) might work better, as he has drop deep as a player trait anyways.
• Am seeing a number of quality goals, throughballs and the like
• I had to put Dunk in the centre CB role to Cover, to mitigate the over the top behaviour in FM21, that is well no pun intended OTT
• Buggy WBs running to end line, turning towards goal, and getting corners is hurting wing play, so it's good centre play is better
• On corners, because I have the outside CBs set to wider, one of my two players on the centre line stands on the near side touchline, that's another thing that is a bug, so I may need to mitigate that as well in the tactic

Will continue to plug away and see how it goes, before making any changes and I also haven't tried the two up top formation yet, but might in the FA Cup

Edited December 8, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[LHurlz]

Very interesting thread, I'm a big fan of 3-4-3 irl but can never seem to get it going in FM, typically struggle badly with chance creation.  I'm definitely gonna give it another go now using your tactic as a template!

[CaptCanuck]

Right so have gotten to the midway point in the 2020/21 season and it seems that this ever so slightly tweaked tactic is working pretty well:

The only real changes are DCL from St to De and DC from CD(De) to BPD(Co), that along with the more defensive minded Roberts at DL instead of my offensive, crossing pickup, which seemed to have solidified the backline.
We'd been up and down defensively the first couple months, but after giving up 14 goals over a 6 match stretch in December, we've stuck with this setup and given up 3 over the last 5, with 2 of those being 88th/89th minute. So no means certain, but promising.

We're also scoring more, which you'd hope if you are conceding more and that's left us here at the 1/2 way mark, which is a decent effort with the standard Brighton squad, as most of the buys have been for the future and not necessarily at their peak skills now:

I was hoping for a safe 50-55 point season and be able to spend more time experimenting, but in with a shout for the Europa League, I guess we should be sensible and stick with what is getting results. And must be doing something right to get a nickname, lol:

Edited December 15, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

One thing I would like to try and 'fix' is the width the CBs maintain. I wanted that width to help stretch the defense horizontally all the time and also open up vertical passing lanes to the AMR and AML. But maybe that theoretical is nice theoretically but they don't close ranks quickly enough with possession loss to make it worth while.

Example here, where a missed Brighton pass gets played too far and ends up with the keeper, who then plays it to their CB, who then launches one deep. I think we know how this one ends

It wouldn't have mattered here, but I was wondering if it would be better to play either the DCL or DCR with normal ' in possession' width? And if so, do I choose the CB with the WB(a) and IF(s) or the one with WB(s) and IF(a).

Edited December 15, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

One of the things we want to try and accomplish offensively with the wider CBs is get the BPDs to bypass the 'safer' MF pair and hit the IFs/Ws when there is an opening.

Effectively we skip from defense to attack, without the midfield transition - eventhough the CMs then join in to support the attack - and that's what we see in these two chances here. As an aside, each of the two chances involves 8 or 9 of the players on the pitch, so a genuine 'team effort'.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[ich bin Lior]

PI ? OI ? fm21, looks great man.

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, ich bin Lior said:

PI ? OI ? fm21, looks great man.

Thanks

PIs:

• they are listed above, I've stuck with the same in FM21 so far, bar the changes to the DCL and DC to try and combat the long through balls
• I think am going to try something/anything to mitigate the FM21 wing play, as it's frustrating to see the defenders collapse, giving room to the WB, to only have him muck about until the defenders come out to him and then it's a corner

OIs;

• I press any BPDs and any decent CMs, again to try and combat the long pass
• Otherwise I tend to let the assman have a go and he typically puts tighter marking on CFs. Not sure I like this and sometimes turn it off, as I worry that might actually lead problems at the back, instead of prevent them.
• Generally I find the assistant does less prematch OIs than my assistants in FM20, but maybe that's more who I've hired than the game

TIs:

• I play around with Balanced - Positive (default) - Attacking based on the opposition. I think going 'down' to balanced has seen better results than up to attacking
• Change width sometimes depending on how packed the opposition makes the middle

Sometimes with roles, to close out the match I have put Ajer at the CMR and change it from CM(s) to DLP(d) to see if he can just sensibly control things. Not sure if that genuinely does do anything vs leaving it a CM(s or d), yes theoretically it should, but I need more matches to tell for sure. And of course change some A-S-Ds around now and again too.

Edited December 16, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[FMplaymaker300]

21 hours ago, CaptCanuck said:

Thanks

PIs:

• they are listed above, I've stuck with the same in FM21 so far, bar the changes to the DCL and DC to try and combat the long through balls
• I think am going to try something/anything to mitigate the FM21 wing play, as it's frustrating to see the defenders collapse, giving room to the WB, to only have him muck about until the defenders come out to him and then it's a corner

OIs;

• I press any BPDs and any decent CMs, again to try and combat the long pass
• Otherwise I tend to let the assman have a go and he typically puts tighter marking on CFs. Not sure I like this and sometimes turn it off, as I worry that might actually lead problems at the back, instead of prevent them.
• Generally I find the assistant does less prematch OIs than my assistants in FM20, but maybe that's more who I've hired than the game

TIs:

• I play around with Balanced - Positive (default) - Attacking based on the opposition. I think going 'down' to balanced has seen better results than up to attacking
• Change width sometimes depending on how packed the opposition makes the middle

Sometimes with roles, to close out the match I have put Ajer at the CMR and change it from CM(s) to DLP(d) to see if he can just sensibly control things. Not sure if that genuinely does do anything vs leaving it a CM(s or d), yes theoretically it should, but I need more matches to tell for sure. And of course change some A-S-Ds around now and again too.

what about changing the Pressing Forward to a Shadow Striker and going strikerless?

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, FMplaymaker300 said:

what about changing the Pressing Forward to a Shadow Striker and going strikerless?

Interesting. I've not used an SS in any earnestness before. I'd be worried we wouldn't get the pressure on the CBs that a PF provides and make it too easy for them to bring it out of the back and/or lump longballs up for scoring chances.

In the 523 I keep wanting to use more of we've got a spot for an SS, but behind a PF/CF combo, it's likely an AM is the better option.

I'm coming up to youth intake time and since I don't want to lose a season's worth of potential regens, I am going to put the season on hold until the next patch - and hope they fix crosses too - so I might go back to an older save from the Xmas period and have a play with formation changes there.

[Barnet]

Just discovered this thread having not been on the forums for a while and I have to praise CaptCanuck as I've been doing the same quietly in the background since FM20.  What I've ended up with is almost identical with a few shape variations and tactical variations to suit the way Potter flexes shape in game. 

1.  moving a CB forward into DMC to make a 4-1-2-2-1 

2.  moving the 3 forwards into AM(S), PF, PF  5-2-1-2  

3.  both of the above, to a 4-1-2-1-2 

 

Tactically, there are a few differences which are more due to some of the issues I see with the way Potter plays at Brighton - so although this may not be true to FM, I think it's true to the ethos.

In Possession

For the Final Third I use "Low Crosses".  I want to rely on the mobility and movement of the strikers rather than lump balls in.  This helps to get the ball in quicker rather and also helps with limited aerial ability.   (To this end I also set the WBs PIs to cross Near Post, to avoid the Keeper)

For Approach Play I do not "Focus Play Through The Middle"     just tried it with and without and felt I was able to progress the ball faster without opting to focus play in this way. I want faster front to back and this I felt was slowing us down a bit.

 

In Transition

When possession has been won, I "Counter".  I find that otherwise transitions aren't seized upon quite as effectively,

  

Out of Possession

On the tackling side, I don't often see players go to ground, so I have opted to "Stay on Feet"

Also the team work hard and are "More Urgent" in their attempts to recover the ball/get back in shape

 

 

[CaptCanuck]

On 29/12/2020 at 02:48, Barnet said:

Just discovered this thread having not been on the forums for a while and I have to praise CaptCanuck as I've been doing the same quietly in the background since FM20.  What I've ended up with is almost identical with a few shape variations and tactical variations to suit the way Potter flexes shape in game. 

1.  moving a CB forward into DMC to make a 4-1-2-2-1 

2.  moving the 3 forwards into AM(S), PF, PF  5-2-1-2  

3.  both of the above, to a 4-1-2-1-2 

 

Tactically, there are a few differences which are more due to some of the issues I see with the way Potter plays at Brighton - so although this may not be true to FM, I think it's true to the ethos.

In Possession

For the Final Third I use "Low Crosses".  I want to rely on the mobility and movement of the strikers rather than lump balls in.  This helps to get the ball in quicker rather and also helps with limited aerial ability.   (To this end I also set the WBs PIs to cross Near Post, to avoid the Keeper)

For Approach Play I do not "Focus Play Through The Middle"     just tried it with and without and felt I was able to progress the ball faster without opting to focus play in this way. I want faster front to back and this I felt was slowing us down a bit.

 

In Transition

When possession has been won, I "Counter".  I find that otherwise transitions aren't seized upon quite as effectively,

  

Out of Possession

On the tackling side, I don't often see players go to ground, so I have opted to "Stay on Feet"

Also the team work hard and are "More Urgent" in their attempts to recover the ball/get back in shape

 

 

Good stuff Barnet. I wondered about putting 'Counter' on. I'm not sure that I want them always pegging it back the otherway though, so I think (If I can be arsed) to use it situationally. I will have to try it a few times and see what happens.

[CaptCanuck]

Well season 1 was finished up and we came in a comfortable 6th, qualifying for Europa League. So all in all a successful season; however, we 'only' got 32pts in the 2nd half and the matches become more of a turgid affair, as the first patch update after the main release absolutely changed the way the ME dealt with our tactic.

To try and mitigate the unpleasantness, I dropped 'More disciplined' and would change from narrow to regular to wide depending on how the match looked to be going and how congested and how many blocked shots were occurring.

Now we're going through the preseason and start of the next and I've made a few serious tweaks to the main tactic and will follow up with a better post about that - it looks really promising so far! - as I need to do a few screengrabs and maybe a quick video.

Edited January 11, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

Tactic (FM21)

So below is the tactic I used through the 2021 preseason and into the regular season (10 matches in all comps) with a fair degree of success - barring a hiding from ManU.

The football is much improved on the 2nd half of the previous season and I do think that is as much down to the update last week as the tactic.

The main individual changes are:

• DR from WB-a/WB-s to FB-a. This was done both with defensive and attacking considerations in mind, but the catalyst was to hedge against running to the byline and crossblocking for corners. This does seem to have been reduced some and I don't see any real downside from an attacking POV.
• DL from WB-s to IWB-s. This is part of the change of tact on the leftside of the pitch.
• DC from BPD-c to L-s. With only two in midfield, this is an attempt to get a bit of DLP-esque play/cover when we are in possession and effectively have 6 or 7 attackers, as well as helping with the leftside changes.
• AML from IF-a to W-a. The other part of the leftside change.
• Beyond these changes the other positions have been left alone or maybe a PI add or removal, but nothing major.

Impact on the tactic:

• Changing to the W and the IWB - and having those players being the excellent Dwight McNeil and promising Michal Karbownik - has enabled left/left mid overloads with them, the CMs, and PF all chipping in to open up through ball chances and otherwise create a lot of open space on the right for the FB-a and IF-s. The FB-a can and does definitely arrive late to pick up those flank switching passes and if the ball goes from middle to out or is being taken down the right by the IF, the overlaps are coming naturally enough to not need the TI.
  And the way the IWB will stay outside if the forward in front cuts inside, is currently providing the best of both worlds, if I switch wide players and have an opposite foot cutter instead.
• The Libero is supposed to help recycle the ball if no openings occur on the left, but due to the quality of Assuncao or Moder to distribute the ball out of the CMR spot, I've not seen a huge influence on play there yet.
• While still CM-s roles, the CML is supposed to be more go forward and being an extra attacker in the box, vs the CMR who is supposed to be more of a DLP-s/RPM but without the automatic ball attraction, to try and keep things balanced.

I am still annoyed SI hasn't fixed the analytics, which makes it more of a pain to check how the tactic is working. I watch in Comprehensive mode, as I just don't have the time (or interest really) to watch full matches. But I may have to watch a few through to see what is/isn't working against different formations.

Edited January 12, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

Now for a carefully cherry-picked goal because maybe not every single one is pretty, but this one is an example of how the opposition (Sevilla) gets carried away watching the action on the left and helps create the overload, as it goes W to (1) IWB to (2) CM to (3) PF, who then (4) slides it over the IF who has nothing but open goal in front of him:

Here is the video of that goal, after a nice little give-and-go over the top through ball and before an actual unblocked cross from the FB, with a little dink over the keeper to score @shaunwwfc - Kidding aside, thought you might want a bit of positive affirmation good goals can be scored.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Barnet]

Interesting last night vs Newcastle.  Reviving a classic, the W-M.

 

[Guv'nor]

4 hours ago, Barnet said:

Interesting last night vs Newcastle.  Reviving a classic, the W-M.

 

W-M you say. #earspinged

[CaptCanuck]

Between other things and waiting for the last patch to hopefully fix a bunch of things (which it looks like it actually did very little, yeah no competition in the market) I've not been playing as much, but have completed 3 seasons. Have finished 2nd the last two, getting pretty darn close in 22/23.

The main tactic has stayed largely the same as the one above, with the one main change being dropping the W-A to W-Su on the left to help feed the beast, that is Seb and going from FB back to a WB-Su on the right due to the somewhat improved crossing of the latest patches. We did end up going from a team that spread the goals amongst the front 3 to focusing on the striker, but it did work out with our best goal total and differential in club history.

Brighton's latest result IRL - against admittedly hapless opponents - has got me interested in moving onto the next season, so how about that w-m?

[CaptCanuck]

Right then, so for the 343 - 3412 - 32212 or whatever we want to call it for our wm. I've been way more successful with a two wingers + strike front 3 vs a two strikers + AM, but I had a think based on the last match and some of Potters other two up front efforts, which TBF seemed to get shelved when Lallana was out and instead it was Trossard/Maupay/Other across the front. Anyhoo, for the Newcastles of the world, something like this could work:

The right-side FB could be S instead of D, but even with D, they are going to get higher up than BPDs as used in my tactics above. Strikers set to get wide + all of the front 3 set to roam should let the IWB-a and Vol get in and around the box as well.
Was thinking maybe to go DLP-D + Vol-s/a, but decided to go with a plainer DM-d with more speculative passing. Also thought maybe RPM instead of Vol or even a DM-s with a bunch of PIs. Gave it a test drive vs Bournemouth from the previous season in comp highlight mode and it seems OK, reckon a top side shreds the back 3 until I figure out better how to mitigate it.

Made the quick changes for matches against Spurs and Chelsea and again it looks OK in comp highlight mode, with a couple good goals. Having a proper back 3 of CBs does look more solid, but again I have no experience before tonight trying a one CB + two FBs. Other than that, didn't make any changes:

Not to patronize folks, as I'm sure it's already known what he's referring to or is googleable, but just to be sure 3yr old drawing lines added.

With that promising quick test, time to watch some full match mode action and see what's obviously working or obviously a bit pants and take it from there. Unfortunately I'm not sure there's a lot of room for improvement from our previous season's league results, but trying to do it again with a new tactic would still be interesting.

Edited March 23, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[Guv'nor]

The split back three remains the A-Level, Further Maths paper, late 90s. Head scratcher. Proper. Sadly the split 3 translates into absolute isolation of the CB, which is a far cry from reality. FBs will be fullbacks and full of full backing no matter how stripped the PIs. 

Nevertheless, perseverance...Have seen this work fantastically well in a youth tournament a few years back. 

If not mistaken, Guardiola rolled this rebel out a few times with Bayern too. Then again, what didn’t Pep do, two at the back with a half-back, 3-3-3-1...look live the renegades.  

 

[CaptCanuck]

Right, time for an end of season 4 (2023-24) update. We played almost every minute of every match with the 3-4-3 formation. There was a brief switch back to the 5221 to try and cleanse the palette during a midseason slump.

Tactic

But this was the main formation. We'd start every match lined up as follows:

• Front 3 have roam from position, the strikers have get wide in possession, and they press more to give us a split block
• Middle 4 play near enough their defaults, with the exception of the right DM having 'Get further forward' and "Takes More Risks"
• Back 3 have the outside pair get wide in possession

For player attributes we like having the front 7 with "Plays One-Twos" and the back 3 with "Brings Ball out of Defence" and "Tries Long Range Passes". Obviously the players will have a potpourri of other attributes that help the tactic work; various passing ones, movement ones, and shooting ones.

Once the matches get going, the tweaks that are made vary amongst the following, but typically nothing too earth shattering or something that fundamentally changes the set up:

• Mentality - change from Balanced to Positive
• In Possession - add Work Ball Into Box and Be More Expressive. Can also try a Focus Play... option
• In Transition - nothing
• Out of Possession - sometimes change the lines and press intensity, but not too often

Results

The first half of the Premiership season was fantastic. Undefeated, lots of goals, largely enjoyable to watch. The second half was not that pleasant as the silly schedule and injuries hurt consistency and we leaked oil down the stretch, but still managed to eek out the Prem title, as Liverpool collapsed more than us and ManUtd had too much of a gap to close late on. We had 78 points after 31 matches, but only got 9 points from the last 7 matches, so ya not pretty. But to turn that frown upside down we did lead wire, starting with a 5-1 victory and finishing with a 2-1 win.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by CaptCanuck

[CaptCanuck]

Apart from the league victory, did it actually work? Yes-ish

• we had more possession that previous and had the most goals from open play (Liverpool scored an amazing 25 goals from set pieces/penalties), the best cross comp %, 5th for pass comp %, 2nd in CCC, and 1st in possession lost
• defensively 2nd best from open play, but only 14 cleansheets, and 2nd last in possession won, which with the split block and good possession isn't that surprising
• Front 3 mixed together well with the AF/DLF sharing the scoring and the AM pitching in with some Gs and As. First time I felt I actually got the AMC role to work as I wanted, especially in taking up the trailing role in the box or the second spot when the DLF dropped deep or one of the front two stayed out wide.
• Mid 4 the Brasilian double pivot was strong, especially after we finished enduring Gustavo's sell me strops and having Rice as the 3rd option didn't hurt. For the vast majority of matches I didn't feel them sitting in the DM strata hurt their offensive impetus, especially in what we hoped would be a possession friendly set up, where the two WBs would chip in a lot. To that point Lamptey at CWB was our leading assister, but with OK mentals and mediocre technicals I am trying wingers/forwards at the role, as I think while his pace is awesome, we're hamstrung by the other stuff.
• Back 3 I just wish would get up the pitch more once possession has been gained around the opponents 18yd box. They will sometimes carry deep and sometimes push up for a loose pass, but typically they put the brakes on at the 1/2 way line. It is a decent recycle option, but would be nice if they'd move up another few yards more readily. That said there were some proper Brighton-esque long rangers during the season, including this beauty in the opening match of the season :-)

Since highlights are still crocked, apologies for the shaky camera work.