Domus Clamantium Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 The title sums up my frustration with FM20. I don't want to be that guy but tactics that worked in prior FMs don't work anymore, particularly when playing with 1 striker. It's not like I have had trouble scoring goals with my strikers in 2 striker systems. I haven't. I actually had a great 442 system working in France's Ligue 2 with two wingers and 2 inverted wingbacks that had my whole team scoring for fun. But I want a wide 433 like Liverpool's or Man City's that doesn't mainly score from set pieces! The main behaviours I see which are symptoms: -Striker receives little or no service -Ball is constantly played wide, and then either recycled or crossed, typically only to go out for a corner or throw in. -Crosses that are successful seldom connect -Crosses that connect are seldom converted even at close range. In particular, headers usually go over the bar. -Wide attackers seldom cut inside and dribble at defenders -Central and wide players don't move beyond the striker and attack half spaces I know you are going to say post tactics. I will. I have tried different roles and duties on the whole team. Typically 1 aml/r has attack duty, 1 cm has attack duty 1 fb has an attack duty. So i should not be experiencing problems with getting men forward and linking with the striker. Yet I am! My striker on attack duty doesn't find space in behind regardless of role and is definitely nowhere near the ball, and on support he comes deep sometimes but then doesn't score! I know I have to attack the half spaces because the central space is rammed with opposition bodies, but when even a Trequartista STC isn't drifting into those half spaces or dropping off, I have to question why the striker movement is so bad on this edition? It was the same on 19, but on FM18 it was fantastic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarmatian Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Had very similar issues. The I applied some of the advice in this thread In general, my experience is that close range shots/headers more often get blocked. I changed the player in striker position and had better result. Also, lone striker should have decent physical attributes, and also it wouldn't be bad if he had good off the ball rating, as well as some of the mental ones, like aggression and bravery. Doesn't have to be off the charts, but it shouldn't be bad. But, based on your situation, I think it is your tactical approach that is the issue. My initial setup was short passing, work ball into the box, low tempo and the game resembled almost something you'd see in handball rather than football, with player passing to each other around the box. If you're more dominant team, I found that such approach simply gives opposition too much time to react, and they simply end up with 8-9 players in the box. They smothered my lone striker. I've since upped the tempo, increased the width and increased passing range, making my game less predictable. I don't get 70-80% possession any more, but I'm still usually ahead and play much decisively. This is the tactic I use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: I know you are going to say post tactics. I will I am waiting to see the tactic, because otherwise your entire post makes no sense. 3 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: Typically 1 aml/r has attack duty, 1 cm has attack duty 1 fb has an attack duty. So i should not be experiencing problems with getting men forward and linking with the striker. Yet I am! Only the tactic as a whole matters. Individual attack duties mean nothing without the whole context. 3 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: I have to question why the striker movement is so bad on this edition? It was the same on 19, but on FM18 it was fantastic Because FM19 and 20 are more realistic - and hence better designed - than FM18 (not to mention earlier versions). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Experienced Defender said: I am waiting to see the tactic, because otherwise your entire post makes no sense. Player Instructions: STC: Hold Up Ball (to allow the midfield to link with the attack when the striker has the ball on his own / to increase frequency of midfield players running beyond STC) AML: Sit Narrower (to reduce entries down the flank for crosses and increase entries into the box) MCR: Get Further Forward (to have a player getting forward often with a support role whilst moving into space the striker has sometimes vacated) As you may notice, I removed an attack duty from a full back and a central midfielder. Previous instructions were the Control Possession preset on Balanced mentality. Prior midfield trio was HB, RPM, CM(A). Prior FB combo: WB(S) left, FB(A) right. This new set of instructions are purely my own creation. I've decided go more direct, faster tempo and allow the opposition more possession to try to unlock space during transition. By controlling possession before I may have been allowing the opposition to reorganise too easily. I think it will be solid defensively although less so on the left flank. Maybe BWM(S) or close down more on the CM(S) on the MCL would be beneficial if I'm having defensive issues there. Players I expect and want to score the most: Middleton, 20 flair, 15 pace, 17 acceleration, 15 dribbling, 11 finishing, 13 off the ball, 10 anticipation, 13 agility Rodrigo: 17 flair, 15 off the ball, 13 pace/acceleration, 13 agility, 14 dribbling, 15 off the ball, 13 anticipation, 14 technique, 14 composure, 13 first touch, 13 finishing None of my players are real players by the way (Use Fake Players checked). This is in the 19/20 season. Edited October 25, 2020 by Domus Clamantium Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Domus Clamantium said: As you may notice, I removed an attack duty from a full back and a central midfielder For what specific reason? I mean, if you make a change to a tactic, you first need to know the exact reason why you are doing that. There is no point in making tweaks on a random basis. 5 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: Previous instructions were the Control Possession preset on Balanced mentality. Prior midfield trio was HB, RPM, CM(A). Prior FB combo: WB(S) left, FB(A) right It's never a good idea to constantly change a tactic or make big changes at once, even if those changes make sense, much less when they don't. Anyway, let's see this (I guess) current tactic you posted in the screenshot: 6 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: 9 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: I think it will be solid defensively although less so on the left flank Exactly - the left flank is the weakest link in your tactic (actually the left half, not just flank). So you have identified the biggest potential issue of your tactic, which is a good sign 11 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: Maybe BWM(S) or close down more on the CM(S) on the MCL would be beneficial if I'm having defensive issues there If you tell the CM in the MCL to close down more, you will only exacerbate the defensive weakness on that side. Therefore, you need a holding or covering role in MCL, rather than CM on support. BWM on support or DLP on support or carrilero are the most logical options if you ask me. But do not tell your MCL to close down more, regardless of the role. Because you don't need him to leave his defensive position, but quite the opposite. As for other roles, I would definitely switch the CWB to a normal WB on support duty, because CWB makes a lot more sense in narrow formations. Offside trap looks risky considering your D-line setting (even if you have fast defenders). Because when the trap gets beaten, your defense won't have the time to react and correct the mistake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 24 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: Player Instructions: STC: Hold Up Ball (to allow the midfield to link with the attack when the striker has the ball on his own / to increase frequency of midfield players running beyond STC) I am not sure that the "Hold up ball" PI exists for the trequartista role. If you want a roaming and creative striker role that holds up the ball, CF could be a good choice (since that role is the most similar to TQ of all striker roles). 27 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: AML: Sit Narrower (to reduce entries down the flank for crosses and increase entries into the box) MCR: Get Further Forward (to have a player getting forward often with a support role whilst moving into space the striker has sometimes vacated) Okay, these 2 make sense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said: I am not sure that the "Hold up ball" PI exists for the trequartista role It does. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 (edited) I removed the FB(A) so I am very solid down one flank and I realised that having him overlap was more of a weakness than a strength. When he overlaps, who is he crossing to? Two targets mainly. STC and AML, but anyone else is too late to the party. My whole tactic is set up to play through opposition defences, primarily through the middle. Any width is just there as a threat more than an actual danger. I removed CM(A) because I want to see how the BBM can work with Tamba. It's his favoured role, and he has Gets Further Forward and Gets Into Opposition Area. He's my most expensive and highest valued player. His value is 6.5m, not bad for a free transfer in Sky Bet League One. With those PPMs, I'm hoping for the best of both worlds, and to boost the fluidity of my shape. I don't want to be too structured. I can always change him to CM(A) if it's not working. But I honestly wasn't getting anything out of him as CM(A) in my last iteration. I'm hoping the higher mentality will boost his effectiveness, albeit with a more conservative role. I'll take off the offside trap. But I'm sticking with CWB(S) for now, purely because I'm hoping to create havoc down the left whilst my right flank is so much more mundane and pedestrian. I know a CWB will drift inside sometimes when the IF goes wide with the ball. Sure, a defensive liability, but if I take your advice add Hold Position to the MCL (rather than setting him as a playmaker), it's fairly safe. I don't want a midfield playmaker because I want my team to focus the Trequartista as the playmaker. I've also changed W(S) to W(A) but I'm not sold on that. I just don't like that nobody is really attacking the right. The description saying getting an early cross for the forwards on a support duty disturbs me. There's nobody to cross to. If he comes to the byline instead, that will allow my midfield time to get to the box. Edited October 25, 2020 by Domus Clamantium Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 25 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: It does. My fault then, sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 12 hours ago, Experienced Defender said: My fault then, sorry Anything further to add? You was on a roll then you stopped! Loving your posts ❤ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: Anything further to add? About what in particular? 3 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: You was on a roll then you stopped! How do you mean that? Not sure I understand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 31 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said: About what in particular? How do you mean that? Not sure I understand. I mean I posted and you replied a fair bit and then I posted about some changes and you didn't reply. I don't mind who replies, I'm frustrated and looking for assistance, but you're the only one who has replied so I was hoping you'd do a bit more. Again, thank you for what you already contributed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 19 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: I mean I posted and you replied a fair bit and then I posted about some changes and you didn't reply Because I can hardly keep track of all the changes you are constantly making to your tactic (which btw is something I had already advised you against doing). On top of that, as a moderator I am looking to help as many people in this forum as possible, and my time is not unlimited (as I have other things to do besides the forum and FM). If you again have a new tactic and want to discuss it, you'll need to post a screenshot of that latest one as well, so that I could properly analyze it and tell you if there are any potential issues/flaws. P.S: You neither quoted nor tagged me in your comment you were referring to, so I could not know whom it was aimed at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuru Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 A first look into the last print of your tactic shows me an agressive and direct counter attack style. It seems that your team engages the opposition on its own half, try to take the ball back agressively, and when it does, hoofs the ball to the strikers/wingers. Hoof is the best word here, because in FM 20 direct passing is very sensitive, it really makes the players lump the ball foward. But it looks a bit confusing - regarding roles and duties, I really don´t know if you have enough restraint to absorb pressure and strike on the counter. I don´t know if this is what you are trying to create. But the quick analysis on the print shows your team is suffering from long range shots, which makes sense with lower LOE. I would also like to help you like Experienced Defender did, but I suggest you consider what you are trying to create. I may suggest you look at the tactical templates in FM not to use them as they are, but to inspire yourself - in which tactical styles the 4-3-3 is being used? Which one you like the best and looks like the Liverpool/Man City style you are inspiring on? Maybe you can use one of them a starting point to create your own style? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 (edited) 56 minutes ago, Tsuru said: A first look into the last print of your tactic shows me an agressive and direct counter attack style. It seems that your team engages the opposition on its own half, try to take the ball back agressively, and when it does, hoofs the ball to the strikers/wingers. Hoof is the best word here, because in FM 20 direct passing is very sensitive, it really makes the players lump the ball foward. But it looks a bit confusing - regarding roles and duties, I really don´t know if you have enough restraint to absorb pressure and strike on the counter. I don´t know if this is what you are trying to create. But the quick analysis on the print shows your team is suffering from long range shots, which makes sense with lower LOE. I would also like to help you like Experienced Defender did, but I suggest you consider what you are trying to create. I may suggest you look at the tactical templates in FM not to use them as they are, but to inspire yourself - in which tactical styles the 4-3-3 is being used? Which one you like the best and looks like the Liverpool/Man City style you are inspiring on? Maybe you can use one of them a starting point to create your own style? I am here because I did exactly that. I used the preset for Control Possession and which was all about keeping the ball and winning it back aggressively. Clearly, high pressing wasn't working. We had high possession. But that was all we had, unless scoring from a set piece. That was why I was so frustrated. I was sick of the ball being funneled to the flanks and then our attacks failing. I made wholesale changes to rectify the problems which were down to the opposition defence reorganising too easily and then not finding central space for either my attackers to run into or space for the ball to go to my striker's feet. These problems arose from the low tempo and short passing and balanced mentality. So I decided to increase the oomph of my attacks: faster, more direct and more risky, whilst tempering that with allowing the opposition more time on the ball to open up those aforementioned spaces. From here, I won't make any more changes unless recommended, so now you have a stable thread. Edited October 26, 2020 by Domus Clamantium Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said: Because I can hardly keep track of all the changes you are constantly making to your tactic (which btw is something I had already advised you against doing). On top of that, as a moderator I am looking to help as many people in this forum as possible, and my time is not unlimited (as I have other things to do besides the forum and FM). If you again have a new tactic and want to discuss it, you'll need to post a screenshot of that latest one as well, so that I could properly analyze it and tell you if there are any potential issues/flaws. P.S: You neither quoted nor tagged me in your comment you were referring to, so I could not know whom it was aimed at. Apologies. I am not ungrateful. The latest iteration will be what we are working with from now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Domus Clamantium said: The latest iteration will be what we are working with from now 20 hours ago, Domus Clamantium said: You mean this one? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domus Clamantium Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said: You mean this one? Yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Experienced Defender Posted October 26, 2020 Share Posted October 26, 2020 4 minutes ago, Domus Clamantium said: Yes Well, we already discussed that tactic and I told you my opinion as well as suggestions. If you have any additional specific question(s) in relation to that tactic, feel free to ask Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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