Mid Season slump and formation advice

[Sarmatian]

I'm generally finding this match engine very weird. Players miss sitters and close range shots/ccc, but score screamers from 20+ meters out and also slow headers from long range. Might be influenced by lower quality league/team but I did play out half a season with higher rated team and noticed the same. Is it the match engine's problem? It appears the same for me and AI teams but still would want to check if other people have the same experience.

 

Now to the problem at hand:

 

I'm managing Vojvodina in Serbian league (3rd to 4th team in quality, roughly). Twice in a row (two different saves, got frustrated and started again with the same team) I'm experiencing a huge mid season slump. I was playing very well, comfortably first with 9 points lead and then slump comes. Suddenly my players are slower, make stupid mistakes, opposition players turn into Ronaldo's/Messi's. I start conceding easily, even though I usually have the best defensive record in the league up to that point.

 

It come around that 7:3 victory against Rad on 9/11. Not something I could pinpoint, just noticed that everything about my players seemed a little worse, and opponents were playing better than they should. Next 0:0 with Partizan is misleading because they absolutely dominated the game. They easily could have won 4:0. Next few games were hit and miss, but generally much harder and much closer than they were and than they should be.

What can I do to guard against that? In the last save, a drop came at similar time in the season, manifested itself similarly, even though I was playing a different formation, a more direct 4-2-3-1.

This time I opted for a more possession based 4-5-1, and it worked even better early, but again same problems at around the same time.

Any tips for tactic improvements are appreciated as well

[Experienced Defender]

Your tactic contains what I like to call "possession overkill" = much shorter passing + much lower tempo + play out of defence + work ball into box. 

And then you also have SK on attack duty in an extremely possession-oriented system, which looks quite contradictory. AP on attack duty is also somewhat inconsistent with the rest of your tactic, but less so than the keeper. 

Out-of-possession instructions are needlessly aggressive for my liking, which is another kind of overkill in your tactic. 

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

Any tips for tactic improvements are appreciated as well

Here are the tweaks I would start with:

INSTRUCTIONS

- change much shorter passing into (just) shorter

- change much lower tempo into (just) lower

- change attacking width from fairly narrow into default (do not limit your players' attacking options, especially against defensive opposition)

- remove work ball into box (to avoid overcomplication in the final third)

- remove dribble less (unless you have a really strong reason to use that instruction)

- add underlap left (both to create more dynamic interplay on that flank and encourage more inside passes from there) 

- remove hold shape (let your players attempt a counter-attack from time to time when a good opportunity is there)

- drop the Line of engagement from much higher to (just) higher (both to create a bit more space for your forwards and improve your defensive compactness)

- remove prevent short GKD (same as above)

ROLES & DUTIES

- change the SK's duty from attack into support

- change the AP on attack duty into MEZ on attack duty

- change the winger on support (AMR) into AP on support

- change the DLP's duty from support into defend 

PLAYER INSTRUCTIONS

- tell the striker to roam from position

- tell the IF on attack (AML) to sit narrower

 

Then play a couple of matches and report back on how things are going so that we could discuss if more changes should be made 

[Sarmatian]

Thanks.

 

What do I gain with Mezzala instead of AP? I was on a hiatus since FM15, there's many new roles. In the similar vein, what does "underlap left" actually do? Also, how to tell AML to sit narrower?

Edited October 21, 2020 by Sarmatian

[HanziZoloman]

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

Also, how to tell AML to sit narrower?

That’s easy. Just click on the player in the tactic and you can select a new menu with Player Instructions (PI‘s). There you‘ll find sit narrower, it’s one of the circles.

Mezzala is going wider than the AP but you can read the Role definition ingame. It’s quite explaining.

On the right side you have a Ws, with the Mez you can create overloads, the Defense of your opponent is then shifting to that side and leaves the other less protected. If you have any player with „switches ball to other flank“ ppm in a right sided role, this player can involve the isolated left side by switching the ball there with one move. That is very dangerous for your opponent.

I also notice two WB in your system which can leave your flanks unprotected. I love WBs and had a tactic with two but opponents are adapting to your tactic and notice the open flanks, they try to exploit your weakness (or my in that case). Not after long they cut inside from the flanks (Messi style) and shot on goal. I saw a video by Rashidi, he had FBs with the PI „take more risks“ that can be an option for you too. Now I have a WBa and a FBs with take more risks. It’s more stable but also a bit more attacking. 
Also: if you post a Team Comparison Screenshot of your Players in Goal/ DEF/ MF/ AT compared to the other teams in the league, we will see what your team can do and what not. It’s very helpful.

Edited October 21, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

What do I gain with Mezzala instead of AP?

You still have an AP, only in a different position (AMR instead of MCR) and on a different duty (support instead of attack). With a combination of an attacking mezzala and supporting AP in front of him, you get a nice interplay in that area of your system, which can also be useful for creating an overload (on condition that other roles and duties are set up properly). 

 

5 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

In the similar vein, what does "underlap left" actually do?

Underlap left does 2 things:

- slightly increases the mentality of the DL/WBL and slightly reduces that of the ML/AML in order to get them closer together, especially in attack

- encourages more passes from out wide into central areas 

5 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Also, how to tell AML to sit narrower?

In his player instructions. 

[Sarmatian]

3 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

You still have an AP, only in a different position (AMR instead of MCR) and on a different duty (support instead of attack). With a combination of an attacking mezzala and supporting AP in front of him, you get a nice interplay in that area of your system, which can also be useful for creating an overload (on condition that other roles and duties are set up properly). 

 

Underlap left does 2 things:

- slightly increases the mentality of the DL/WBL and slightly reduces that of the ML/AML in order to get them closer together, especially in attack

- encourages more passes from out wide into central areas 

In his player instructions. 

Well, noticed an improvement in performance after that, and now most of my attacks come from the right.

Most obvious problem right now is occasional leaky goal, usually through the middle, going over my CBs. I guess some of it is to be expected, but it happens too often for my liking.

What to do with BWM in the middle? Is their a better role there? Originally I created that role for Kacar, who was obviously a vast improvement for Vojvodina, immediately made vice captain and become a team leader and mentor. He will be seeing less play due to age. Can I go for a more creative role there or should try to find another destroyer type player?

7 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

That’s easy. Just click on the player in the tactic and you can select a new menu with Player Instructions (PI‘s). There you‘ll find sit narrower, it’s one of the circles.

Mezzala is going wider than the AP but you can read the Role definition ingame. It’s quite explaining.

On the right side you have a Ws, with the Mez you can create overloads, the Defense of your opponent is then shifting to that side and leaves the other less protected. If you have any player with „switches ball to other flank“ ppm in a right sided role, this player can involve the isolated left side by switching the ball there with one move. That is very dangerous for your opponent.

I also notice two WB in your system which can leave your flanks unprotected. I love WBs and had a tactic with two but opponents are adapting to your tactic and notice the open flanks, they try to exploit your weakness (or my in that case). Not after long they cut inside from the flanks (Messi style) and shot on goal. I saw a video by Rashidi, he had FBs with the PI „take more risks“ that can be an option for you too. Now I have a WBa and a FBs with take more risks. It’s more stable but also a bit more attacking. 
Also: if you post a Team Comparison Screenshot of your Players in Goal/ DEF/ MF/ AT compared to the other teams in the league, we will see what your team can do and what not. It’s very helpful.

That's interesting. More stable AND more attacking? Sounds like best of both worlds.

[Experienced Defender]

13 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

Most obvious problem right now is occasional leaky goal, usually through the middle, going over my CBs

That's most probably due to your overly aggressive defensive instructions - primarily the much higher D-line and extremely urgent pressing. Your players, particularly defenders, are probably not good enough to play with so much risk. 

I personally never play so aggressively, even when I manage top teams. 

13 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

What to do with BWM in the middle? Is their a better role there?

What's the exact problem with your BWM? 

 

13 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

Can I go for a more creative role there or should try to find another destroyer type player?

You can use DLP on support duty instead of the BWM, but then change the DM into a non-playmaker holding role (e.g. half-back or DM on defend duty). 

[Sarmatian]

Ok, I will try and see if dropping D-line and pressing a bit improves things defensively.

BWM is getting on in years, and I added it specifically because I got a high quality player for position. Tactic creator suggested 3 somewhat creative roles and I manually switched to BWM. That's why I asked if I should go for a more creative type once my current BWM drops out due to age, but yeah... one holding type midfielder is always needed in such a trio.

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Ok, I will try and see if dropping D-line and pressing a bit improves things defensively

D-line works in tandem with the line of engagement, so be careful when adjusting either. 

 

2 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Tactic creator suggested 3 somewhat creative roles

Do not pay (too much) attention to what the tactical creator suggests. Use common sense instead. 

[Sarmatian]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

D-line works in tandem with the line of engagement, so be careful when adjusting either. 

 

Do not pay (too much) attention to what the tactical creator suggests. Use common sense instead. 

 Thanks. Coming back to FM after FM15 looked daunting. I assumed tactical creator was "safe" option at first.

 

What is line of engagement exactly? When do my players start pressing?

[HanziZoloman]

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

That's interesting. More stable AND more attacking? Sounds like best of both worlds.

Haha no! 
it‘s more stable but still attacking

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

What is line of engagement exactly? When do my players start pressing?

Yes 

[Sarmatian]

Thanks @Experienced Defender. I'm doing better overall, and I believe I can do minor tweaks on my own from here on, now that I have better understanding.

 

Is there anything else you would recommend? I'm mostly interested in the lone striker. Is DLF (S) a good long term solution in that position? Should I be looking for a more physically or more technically blessed player in that position? Also, fast or strong if given the option?

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

I'm mostly interested in the lone striker. Is DLF (S) a good long term solution in that position?

DLF on support duty as a role makes sense in your current tactical setup, just make sure you use a suitable player for the role (i.e. one with a proper set of relevant attributes). 

 

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Should I be looking for a more physically or more technically blessed player in that position? Also, fast or strong if given the option?

Well, a DLF should generally be at least decent in terms of both physical and technical attributes (although mentals matter as well, because the role requires a rather intelligent player). 

But I don't know the attributes of your current DLF, so I cannot say if he is good enough to play that particular role. 

[Sarmatian]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

DLF on support duty as a role makes sense in your current tactical setup, just make sure you use a suitable player for the role (i.e. one with a proper set of relevant attributes). 

 

Well, a DLF should generally be at least decent in terms of both physical and technical attributes (although mentals matter as well, because the role requires a rather intelligent player). 

But I don't know the attributes of your current DLF, so I cannot say if he is good enough to play that particular role.

He's decent, but not something I'd like to keep going forward.

I don't have many options. Last year I got the title, and by a sheer stroke of luck managed to qualify to CL. Got Celtic in the 3rd round, lost 2:1 away, scraped a 1:0 win home. So, I've cashed in some 20M this season so far, spent 8M on improving youth and training facilities. Maybe I'll get some transfer money next season, but the board has so far been very stingy. I can't count I can get someone new.

I'm currently retraining this guy to be DLF

 

Also,

Edited October 22, 2020 by Sarmatian

[Experienced Defender]

Stojanovic definitely can play as a DLF. He is certainly not a top-class player, but is decent enough for the role. 

 

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Very nice, keep up the good work 

[Sarmatian]

Thanks man.

 

A quick question @Experienced Defender, if you don't mind me tagging you. Bought a true gem, never thought he'd go for me. I'm thinking of using him in the AMR position. Should I keep him as AP (S) or should I try Treq?

He's already leading league player at 18, and he's a perfectionist.

He can potentially take IF (A) role in AML position, but I've got that covered much better than the creative role in the AMR position

 

Or, is it worth it mix it up and go for 4-2-3-1, to use him in his natural AMC position? He's by far the best player I have.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Sarmatian

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Should I keep him as AP (S) or should I try Treq?

I would keep him as the AP, because changing a system that already works is never a good idea. If you employed him as a TQ, it would require some tweaks elsewhere, which could potentially ruin the otherwise successful tactic. Last but not least, his attributes suggest to me that the AP would be a more suitable role for him than TQ anyway. 

 

2 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

He can potentially take IF (A) role in AML position

Well... his finishing and composure are not the best for an attacking IF (in my honest opinion). Btw, that's also part of the reason I would not play him as a TQ. 

 

2 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Or, is it worth it mix it up and go for 4-2-3-1, to use him in his natural AMC position? He's by far the best player I have

Nothing wrong with 4231 per se, but that formation is trickier to set up properly than your current one (4141dm wide). 

Anyway, you can create a 4231 tactic and then post a screenshot here so that we could discuss any potential issues 

P.S: If you want to go with a 4231, make sure both CMs are defensively reliable players (along with being able to provide proper support for the more attacking teammates). 

[Sarmatian]

Ok, after playing in the formation a while now, these are the things I've noticed.

 

ATTACKING ISSUES:

1) I create very few CCC. Most of my goals come from what I consider to be long shots (outside the box), or dead ball situations or occasionally crosses.

2) My lone striker doesn't do almost anything, regardless of who's played in the formation. Current one is a retrained MC, who is considered leading player for most sides. Not involved in the buildup much, he almost never finds space, is often marked out, and he misses shots and headers almost always, or is blocked. Whoever played in this position never gets more than 1 goal in 8-10 matches, and it is quite often that droughts are reported, with over 10, 11 hours of football without scoring. He almost never catches crosses. My AMR and AML are often of the end of crosses and score much more than him.

3) My AP in AMR position is not involved as I feel he should be. he often just serves as a go between for the Mez in MC position and the wing back. I've seen better results since I got the Brazilian, but he's head and shoulders above rest of the division.

4) My DPL is consistently the highest rated player in the team, regardless of who plays there. I would assume the game rates number of successful passes and key passes.

5) My IF doesn't make enough impact. There's very few runs. He spends most of his time passing back and forth with left sided WB. Sometimes, but very rarely, he tries to dribble more centrally, but it's almost never in the box, he simply dribbles himself to a central position some 17-20M from opponents goal and then either lays off the ball or shoots wide.

6) Almost nothing happens through the middle. Almost no through balls or runs. I would say easily 90% of attacks come from two wingbacks. Team passes around the box, until someone, usually DPL notices a run of a WB on either side.

7) Good chances, 1 on 1's, shots from a few meters etc... are missed too often. This goes for me and my opponents quite often. Is it a match engine issue? Or player skill issue, like if they have lower than average stats for finishing, regardless of the league standard?

In general, even though the team is a bit more decisive since I've employed the changes @Experienced Defendersuggested, it is still often just passing around the box. Often even WBs aren't trying to drill or float a cross but instead move with the ball, until a defender approaches them at which point they try to cross/pass to the middle or simply pass back to midfield for a repeat of all that.

DEFENSIVE ISSUES:

1) Strong pressing, even from weaker teams can unsettle the team rather easily.

2) Most of goals conceded are either from super long passes over my defence (50-70m) or from free kicks/corners.

 

It is quite hard to notice what is wrong there. I can simply notice that when my time is supposed to playing worse, opponent's players turn into Xavi's, and my defenders seem dumbfounded and uninterested. They often don't even try to reach the ball, even though they're closer, and in a few cases, much closer. I know match engine isn't perfect, and I accept that some of it may be just engine's way of saying "your defenders got caught out of position". But, still I dominate most games, so it is not easy to notice whether there are real problems or some occasional flukes that will happen.

Any advice appreciated, folks.

To finish, this is the comparison of my squad:

 

[Experienced Defender]

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

I create very few CCC. Most of my goals come from what I consider to be long shots (outside the box), or dead ball situations or occasionally crosses

If you are a strong or top team in your league and you mostly face defensive opposition, you are not likely to have many CCCs anyway, simply because there is too little space in the opposition box. But you can create chances that are good even if they are not officially counted as CCCs. 

When it comes to potential tweaks in an attempt to improve chance creation, the first thing I would suggest is to drop the narrower attacking width and leave it on default (i.e. fairly wide under your current team mentality). You can also up the tempo just a notch (to standard/default instead of lower), because with lower tempo + short passing + play out of defence, the opposition have quite enough time to regroup and consolidate defensively in time. 

Also try with whipped instead of low crosses. 

NOTE: The lack of CCCs could also have to do with the quality of players, so keep that in mind as well. 

4 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

My lone striker doesn't do almost anything, regardless of who's played in the formation

You can try with switching his duty to attack and the AML's to support. That should make the striker more of a threat without compromising your overall tactical balance. 

Like this:

DLFat

IFsu                                    

              

[Sarmatian]

 

So, after 3.5 seasons, this is the formation I use. I'm probably overachieving by reputation standards, but I'm just thereabouts by quality. I have the strongest squad in domestic league, with Partizan being a close second.

 

I think the tactic works in general, but I'd still like to try and tweak if anyone has good suggestions. My weakest area is probably my fullbacks/wingbacks. Considering they're crucial in providing width, I'd like to know what attributes should be looking for? Is speed very important? My current ones are not very fast, but I have some prospects who quite pacey, but are still lacking in other attributes - should I give them a chance if their pace is high?

Serbian league only allows 4 foreigners in the team, so I can't have great players everywhere.

 

[Experienced Defender]

57 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

I think the tactic works in general, but I'd still like to try and tweak if anyone has good suggestions

I can share with you an example of one of my favorite possession-oriented tactical setups using your current formation (4141dm wide) if you want. But given that you are 1st in the league at the moment (according to the screenshot you posted), please think twice whether you really want to make tweaks to an already successful tactic. 

 

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

My weakest area is probably my fullbacks/wingbacks. Considering they're crucial in providing width, I'd like to know what attributes should be looking for? Is speed very important?

For the tactic and style of play you are currently using, they definitely need to be reasonably fast (acc & pace 13+). As for other attributes, I would also look for anticipation, decisions, tackling, positioning, off the ball, stamina, work rate, teamwork, agility, balance, first touch, passing, crossing... It does not mean that all these attributes must have a highest possible rating, but most of them should be at least decent. 

[Sarmatian]

1 hour ago, Experienced Defender said:

I can share with you an example of one of my favorite possession-oriented tactical setups using your current formation (4141dm wide) if you want. But given that you are 1st in the league at the moment (according to the screenshot you posted), please think twice whether you really want to make tweaks to an already successful tactic. 

 

For the tactic and style of play you are currently using, they definitely need to be reasonably fast (acc & pace 13+). As for other attributes, I would also look for anticipation, decisions, tackling, positioning, off the ball, stamina, work rate, teamwork, agility, balance, first touch, passing, crossing... It does not mean that all these attributes must have a highest possible rating, but most of them should be at least decent. 

Well, keep in mind that at this point I'm close to, let's say, playing Shakhtar a few years back in the Ukranian league. No serious competition, except for maybe one more decent club. So, being first doesn't mean everything is hunky dory, more that I'm not underachieving. So, please, do share.

 

When it comes to DL and DR, my DR is ok and he's in his prime years and his potential replacement is probably a year off at least from maturing.

DL on the other hand, looks like this.

 

... and I'm thinking of making this guy my first choice next season.

 

 

Roles? Keep them on WBs on support?

[Sarmatian]

Also, is there anything I can do to defend better from indirect free kicks?

[Experienced Defender]

9 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

Well, keep in mind that at this point I'm close to, let's say, playing Shakhtar a few years back in the Ukranian league. No serious competition, except for maybe one more decent club. So, being first doesn't mean everything is hunky dory, more that I'm not underachieving. So, please, do share

PFat

IFsu                               IWsu

DLPsu   MEZat

HB

FBat   CDde  BPDde   WBsu

SKsu

This is basically my favorite setup of roles and duties for the style I like to call "progressive possession football". 

Regarding your 2 DLs (Devetak and Milosevic), I would probably give a slight advantage to the latter (primarily for his speed and mental attributes), although neither looks ideal for the style of play you are pursuing. 

1 minute ago, Sarmatian said:

Also, is there anything I can do to defend better from indirect free kicks?

Set pieces are not my area of expertise. I am neither too bad nor to good when it comes to set pieces. But Rashidi recently had a video on set pieces, so you can check out his YouTube channel ("Bust the net gaming") 

[HanziZoloman]

@Sarmatian
Setpieces: try to set it right (like on bust the net). There are some easy things you can consider:
like best jumpers in the center. A good marker in the back (of the five players defending the goal). The Two guys who stay edge of area should have good anticipation and technique. 

looking at your team comparison I see slow defenders, that can be an issue with your higher DL. But you are successful so like ED said: never change a winning team.

 

@Experienced Defender can you tell the idea behind the PF instead of say DLF or AF? I am curious to know.

 

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, HanziZoloman said:

@Experienced Defender can you tell the idea behind the PF instead of say DLF or AF? I am curious to know

I would use the AF in a counter-attacking system, but in a control or possession-based tactic, AF as a lone striker can struggle for space. 

As for the DLF, I did not say that you cannot or should not use that role. Of course you can. This was just an example of my favorite setup, where I want my lone striker in a simple role that will not be involved too much in creation and organization of play, since I have enough roles behind him to do that job. 

[Zemahh]

11 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Also, is there anything I can do to defend better from indirect free kicks?

Here's an article you might find useful: https://www.fmrensie.net/2020/04/21/fm20-conceding-from-the-set-pieces/

However, keep in mind that players' physicality is still extremely important. If you have no players with good Jumping Reach, Heading, Positioning and Bravery, no defensive routine will help you (FM20 seems to punish that extra harshly).

You can also schedule defensive set piece training sessions to maximize your chances, although from my experience they don't make much of a difference if your routines and attributes are not on point.

[Sarmatian]

End of 5th season and I must say I'm not satisfied at all. I feel this season exposed how much weaknesses I really had.

Ended up 3rd behind, Red Star and Partizan, but more importantly with a huge decline in performance. I think I've identified the reason why I was much better in previous seasons - set pieces. I've had very good free kick/corner takers, usually way above league standard. That allowed me to be much more dangerous during set pieces and score goals that would force opponents to open up. I was scoring around 65-75 goals a season (37 matches), but this season I've scored only 55.  That's a rather large drop.

I don't think there's anything else I can think of. I've had enourmous luck to get a newgen from my own academy who's basically perfect DLF. He's so good I'm considering making him a CF on support. He's considered a wonderkid now.

This is my Mezzala, he's not a newgen but also Vojvodina academy product.

He's also quite good by league standards.

Potentially a weaker area is my IF in AML position.

Last season he was excellent, 11 goals and 4 assists in 22 matches, so I didn't want to change him.

Another weak area that might be a prime candidate for improvement is AMR position. I've had this guy for this and previous season. He was a Vojvodina player before, and I couldn't resist an opportunity to poach him back from Red Star. He was also very highly rated.

He was quite good last season, 7.32, but this season he was barely above average, and he was quite poor in CL. Not sure what I should do in this position. Go for a left footed player? Go for a pace winger? Inverted winger or IF on support?

My WBs are not greatest I know, but there's not that many great WBs. Should I go with ordinary fullbacks there? Avoid unnecessary complications, just look for pacey players to provide width and occasional cross, or should stick to trying to find quality WBs?

 

I'm open to suggestions. We've earned tons of money, which I mostly invested into getting highest potential young players from Serbia and anywhere else in the world. I have U19 teams full of talent that can cover almost any role I can come up with.

 

I can literally go for almost any formation I want. 2 strikers, 4-2-3-1, narrow and through the middle or wide...

 

So, I'm looking for ideas how to make the team much more dangerous. Even if I'm generous and say that Red Star and Partizan are of similar quality, other 13 teams in division lag behind by a large margin. With this squad,  I need to average 2 goals a game over a season, without relying on fantastic set piece takers. Most of the teams will try to shut up shop against me, so there's that.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

Why on earth have you opted to use the tight marking TI in a tactical style and system that is totally unsuited to such manner of defending ???

Underlap TI would make a lot more sense on the right than on the left (considering your setup). 

There is no need to play your left CM (BWM) on defend duty in this formation when you already have a holding DM (DLP) behind him. 

Narrow(er) attacking width is hardly going to help against defensive opposition, especially as you have no winger role (i.e. both wide forward roles tend to go inside). The only role that really provides attacking with in a meaningful way is your WBsu on the left. 

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

My WBs are not greatest I know, but there's not that many great WBs. Should I go with ordinary fullbacks there?

You can go with ordinary FBs, but that would probably require some tweaks elsewhere in your setup, possibly including some instructions as well. 

[HanziZoloman]

@Experienced Defender Said some useful things. I try help too.

If opposition is very defensive and cautious, it is not easy to win a game. That’s why not properly designed game plans lead to many draws. In my hearts save that are the Missing points end of the season.

You want to find the hole in the wall: that’s why it’s clever to stretch the opponents defenseline. You need players wide that will keep fullbacks and central defenders busy. Maybe a WB on one side and a W on the other. Overloads: if you have many players attacking one side, the opponent too will shift his players to this side, that leaves the other more unprotected. Now imagine an agile, pacy guy attacking this side and a midfielder who switches the ball from the overload side to the isolated one.

You have many options how to create this, it depends on the players you have.

   Wa CF IWs

    MC DLPs

         DMd

FBs CD BPD WBa 

          SKs

That is only an idea: on the Right side you have the IWs the WBa and the DLP. The CF keep the CD busy, the IWs attracts a CD or a defending midfielder, with a cut inside and the WBa even attacks from the flank (I got one with good finishing he scores from the corner of the box if unprotected), the FB is busy too. As your players have better quality they beat the opponents players and other players has to fill the gaps, maybe the CD helps out the FB and the other CD stays with the CF. Now your DLP gets the ball and just switches flanks where your Wa is waiting wide for the ball. He has a one on one with the FB before penetrating the box and shooting.

TIs: what TIs can help? I want my team pressing up front I want to engage high (higher DL and higher LoE). Do I want counter-press? Occasionally. I don’t need overlap on the left but maybe an underlap that the Wa have some support when losing the ball. On the right side I have natural overlap. If my CDs are clever with positioning and fast I take Offsidetrap. I build up from the back. When Gegenpressing I want fast tempo and short passes, if not I carefully pass the ball a look for the one opportunity (slower tempo but direct passing).

Hope this explains and helps you with your save. It’s just some ideas.

[Sarmatian]

8 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Why on earth have you opted to use the tight marking TI in a tactical style and system that is totally unsuited to such manner of defending ???

Crap, sorry, wrong screenshot. I was experimenting with how I would set up a 4-2-3-1 and took the screenshot before I reverted back completely, obviously.

This was the tactic that was actually played.

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Crap, sorry, wrong screenshot. I was experimenting with how I would set up a 4-2-3-1 and took the screenshot before I reverted back completely, obviously.

This was the tactic that was actually played.

Have you possibly tried to play:

- with default tempo instead of higher

- with the overlap left instead of the underlap

- with mixed or whipped crosses instead of low

- with a split block and standard LOE instead of higher 

Because this setup of roles and duties really looks good (assuming the roles are assigned to proper players), so I think the part that needs some tweaking is instructions in the first place.

Of course, it's possible that you may want to consider a slight tweak or two to roles and duties as well, but I really don't see any glaring issues in this R&D setup.

[Sarmatian]

Well, the only thing that comes to mind is mediocre WBs, and not great flair. Right now best flair is 16 on my DLF. My DLPs are also not great and lack flair, one has flair 4, other has 10. They consistently get good ratings but maybe I should go for higher quality there. My AP in AMR position had flair 12. I'm planning to start another one this season who has 16.

My BWM is good/leading by division standard.

In general, I see no reason they would underperform.

[Experienced Defender]

4 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

In general, I see no reason they would underperform

If good players underperform (on a consistent basis), then be sure it has to do with the tactic, i.e. some aspect(s) of it. Sometimes it's a poorly balanced setup of roles and duties, sometimes wrong player selection relative to the roles, sometimes tactical overkill or/and contradiction (either between instructions and roles and duties or between instructions themselves). And of course, it can be a combination of more than one factor. 

But given that there is nothing wrong in your latest (current) R&D setup, the problem is most probably elsewhere. 

[Sarmatian]

I didn't add any additional instructions for any role.

I will try to switch up for the next season by adding more pace in WB and AM positions, and more flair to AM, and see if that makes a difference.

[Experienced Defender]

5 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

I didn't add any additional instructions for any role

Who said that you did? 

[Sarmatian]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Who said that you did? 

Just wanted to get it out there, so there's no confusion.

 

I'm doing much better this season. I've added pace in WB's position, and I've got a new first choice DLP, who's a significant improvement over the previous one who's now a backup.

Old one

 

New one

 

The Colombian is a big improvement, especially in flair (4 -> 11) and is playing great. My DLPs tend to get high ratings consistently, which may have lulled me into a false sense of security.

[Deego619]

I've always believed that the "slump" comes from a squad building issue rather than tactical.

If the tactic makes you over-achieve at first, the opposition will treat you like you're a big fish. If your players are not up to the standard of a big fish, then you'll naturally see that struggle.

[04texag]

What I typically do when in a slump is the following:

• Praise training for every player with a 7 or higher training rating using this screen, then right-click, etc. 
• 

 

• For anyone who doesn't qualify for above, or has already been praised for training recently, praise conduct.
  • Both of the above help to raise the team morale
• Next, I look at my tactic, and I rotate my squad. I evaluate two things, recent performance, and high determination players (look on tactic screen and the below column, prioritize these players over your normal starters)
• 
• Tactically in game, I will start off with a cautious mentality to let the team settle in, and start the game with the shout "Concentrate"
• After 10-15 minutes, if things are looking stable, boost the mentality and tell your team to "demand more" Obv this is opponent specific, don't go Attacking against a top side, but if it's a game you should win, go for it.
• Hopefully you win the game, if so, make sure and praise the players with 7 or higher match rating for the last game

[Sarmatian]

Thanks, but I don't think it is a morale issue. Players are basically mostly ranging from Excellent to Superb. I go to great lengths to make sure they're all very happy, and I offload troublemakers, even if they have good potential.

 

But, poor performance still happens.

My players still miss good chances, and most of my goals come from what I would label long shots. Like this:

I've again had a run of several games where I've had a very low chance conversion, and it seems to often be accompanied by leaky defence in my own team.

I'm in a league where I need to win literally all matches to get the title. Red Star has a 15-1-0 record at the moment. The one draw was against my team. They don't really have a better team than me.

The only explanation that comes to mind is that I have a very young side, so that might be a reason for more ups and downs.

Edited October 30, 2020 by Sarmatian

[04texag]

That's fine if not morale. The other thing I mentioned was to play players who are currently performing better, but also, play players with high determination. When in a bad run of form, higher determination players with better mentalities will do a better job of overcoming the odds. I would also go for experience over youth. A lot of times, these may not be your best players. I would also make sure your capt and vice capt are starting.

[Experienced Defender]

6 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

On a sidenote, is VAR bugged???

Since it was introduced in Serbian superleague, I've had about 50 (give or take) decisions of whether it was a foul or not in the box. Every single time the referee decided it was a penalty. That's too big of a number to be mere chance.

On a similar note, when it was a question of whether foul happened inside the box or outside, it was always outside and if a question was whether it was an offside or not, it was always offside. But, those instances happen with much less frequency, so that indeed may be chance.

Or is just because I watch the match on extended, and occasions where VAR says no penalty aren't shown?

Whether VAR is bugged or not in FM is really not a question you can expect to get any proper answer in this tactical section of the forum, simply because it's not a tactical issue. Only people from SI who are in charge of ME development can know if something is possibly wrong with VAR. 

PREVENTIVE WARNING: Anyone who may try to use this VAR-related observation to derail this topic and turn it into any kind of non-tactical discussion will have their comment(s) immediately removed and potentially even be banned from this thread.

[Sarmatian]

I think I cracked it finally, at least in regards to attacking part.

It seems "More Expressive" was the secret ingredient. Ratio of chances created increased by a factor of 3 or 4. However, conversion is still not where I'd like it to be. We're averaging almost 2.5 goals per match in the league. I'd like it to be around 3, but I think we need a bit more depth for that.

I'm still baffled by how good chances in great positions are often wasted and how long shot and half chances have a very high conversion rates.

For instance, my 1st choice striker, who can basically play in any team in Europe at the moment scored only 6 goals in 17 matches he started. That's not a bad return, per se, but given how dominant we are, and how good his chances are, that's not a return I'm happy with. He's averaging almost 2 shots on target per game. I did notice an increase in quality of his shots after he finished learning "places shots".

Meanwhile, this guy, playing in AML position as IF(A) is scoring for fun.

12 goals in 25 matches. He has slightly lower percentage of shots on target, and his shots are from significantly worse positions. Not to mention he has much, much relevant stats for goalscoring. Finishing 7, Long Shots 9, Composure 13 and Technique 16.

 

And of course, chance to goal conversion ratio of our opponents are through the roof. Up to 85th minutes, the score was 2:2 and they had 2 shots on goal, both on target, one of which was a penalty kick.

[herne79]

36 minutes ago, Sarmatian said:

We're averaging almost 2.5 goals per match in the league. I'd like it to be around 3, but I think we need a bit more depth for that.

Just for comparison, in Man City's record breaking season (2017-18) they averaged 2.7 goals per game.  Last season, Liverpool managed 2.2 goals per game when they won the league.

Almost 2.5 goals per match is already excellent .

[Sarmatian]

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Just for comparison, in Man City's record breaking season (2017-18) they averaged 2.7 goals per game.  Last season, Liverpool managed 2.2 goals per game when they won the league.

Almost 2.5 goals per match is already excellent .

Well, my math was a bit off. It was around 2.2 for me as well

Yeah, but the overall quality of PL is much higher than Serbian Superleague. The situation in 2025/26 is probably more similar to how Liverpool would do in the Championship. I don't think 2.5-3 goals per game is unrealistic.

This was a game we finished just a second ago, against Vozdovac, who are in the 2nd position, with 6 matches to go.

 

But, yeah, I'm not complaining THAT much ;). It is just personally annoying how often my striker misses good chances, and how often it looks like he's trying to pass to opposition goalkeeper with his headers. But, he continued to do better after learning "places shots". He went from a goal every third match to a more than a goal every other match.

 

Just a quick question. I've almost never used stopper-cover partnership in the back, and now I have 2 players that seems very well suited for such a partnership - Would it conflict with offside trap and higher D-line instructions?

Edited November 1, 2020 by Sarmatian

[04texag]

1 hour ago, Sarmatian said:

Would it conflict with offside trap and higher D-line instructions?

I've heard that it can conflict with offside trap, so I avoid this TI when using this back two pair. I do use them with higher D line though. I've been having great results with this pair combination in my JdP tactical series thread, and that's without world class defenders, although the rest of the squad nearly is. 

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

However, conversion is still not where I'd like it to be. We're averaging almost 2.5 goals per match in the league. I'd like it to be around 3

Don't get me wrong, but lack of realism in terms of expectations can sometimes cost you a lot in this game. 2.5 goals per match is quite fine if you ask me. In fact, it's a very good number. 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, Sarmatian said:

Just a quick question. I've almost never used stopper-cover partnership in the back, and now I have 2 players that seems very well suited for such a partnership - Would it conflict with offside trap and higher D-line instructions?

If you want to play the CBs on different duties, then better avoid the offside trap instruction. 

[Dfs]

On 27/10/2020 at 23:32, Experienced Defender said:

Why on earth have you opted to use the tight marking TI in a tactical style and system that is totally unsuited to such manner of defending ???

Could you elaborate on why the use of tighter marking in that style and setup is so unsuited? I understand it looks odd for tiki taka but is there something more to it, like formation is not really suitable? I'm sorry if this question is stupid but I personally really like tighter marking instruction because its relatively easy to improve your defenders in marking and positioning in comparison to for example tackling. I usually don't consider it in context of whole system though, just if my defenders can pull it off I tend to switch it on.