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4 minuti fa, Viking ha scritto:

Now you made me hungry.

Anyways... I find it hard to believe SI are deliberatly downgrading the graphics every year because some people are running it on potatoes. I mean, first of all, the number of users with old worthless computers should decrease over time, not increase, and second: I remember games back in the 90:s that could adapt the graphics to suit the power of the computer. Surely SI could do that in 2020 if the problem was users with potato computers.

 

there has to be some below the hub reasons going on we aren't aware of and SI isn't willing to talk about. 

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5 hours ago, Dundalis said:

If you interpret the acronym "IMO" as me stating something as fact, you you either don't know what the acronym means, or you have a serious problem with basic comprehension of language. It's not a fact, but if you have any common sense whatsoever, the idea that a quality, modern 3D graphical engine is not gonna open the game up to a bunch of new fans.... I guess your just one of those people who think like that then... it's the epitomy of backwards management of any company.

"Well let's not try and do something to genuinely improve the product, cause there's this chance that it's not gonna make a difference to sales" Ultimately the reason they've been able to play it safe is because they have a monopoly on the fanbase really, due to no competing product in the genre that would actually kick them up the backside and force them to take risks to make meanginful improvements to the game. It's the same as Fifa once they got a stranglehold over Pro Evo, they don't give a **** about actually improving the product in any meaningful way. There's nothing whatsoever to commend about a company having that mindset. It's deserving of every criticism it's given.

The best thing that could happen to football management simulation genre of games is a competing company coming in with the balls to actually devote resources to putting out something quality that could match and supercede FM. Prob won't happen any time soon, but I'd guarantee you FM wouldn't be patting themselves over the back about a stagnant product with superficial improvements being put out each year, they'd be going all out to take risks and innovate to not fall behind the competitor.

Soccer Manager have decent graphics. Apparently that game is not even competition.

 

Graphics will be welcome but that’s not something that’s implemented overnight especially when majority of your fan base isn’t playing the game for graphics. I’m pretty sure at the end of the day we all want physics and all that.

 

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Absolutely shocking that the minimum requirement, is a processor that is 18 years old.

says it all really about why we are where we are.

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6 hours ago, santy001 said:

You're presenting an opinion, as fact, without any evidence to back it up. 

It may be possible that SI could say licence a graphics engine (pretty pricey, some tend to want a fixed % of unit sales) and then they could learn how to implement that in their game and increase the GPU demands of the match experience. Perhaps they could add further complexity to the ME with physics that significantly jacks up the processing power required to get through a game. They might then find their potential customer base is in the low six figures, maybe even less. 

Imagine that presentation in 12 months when reviewing sales figures...

"So uh guys... what went wrong?"

You're just countering an opinion with a hypothetical, without any evidence to back it up. What if in 12 months when reviewing sales figures the meeting goes "So uh guys, whose idea was to put in a better graphics engine? We made bank, promote that person immediately!"

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Just now, goranm said:

You're just countering an opinion with a hypothetical, without any evidence to back it up. What if in 12 months when reviewing sales figures the meeting goes "So uh guys, whose idea was to put in a better graphics engine? We made bank, promote that person immediately!"

Most of this thread is opinion and hypothetical arguments tbh

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4 minutos atrás, themadsheep2001 disse:

The match engine AI from 2011 is a considerably simpler than that of 2019. Not least because it doesn't have to account for any physics. Still had its own quirks too. It also hit it's limits of what it could do in FM12

I did noticed some major differences in the AI programming and overall gameplay dynamics within the match engine from FM12 to FM13 so I believe you. Thing is, to me this felt like a proper downgrade in all fairness since these tweaks weren't particularly well implemented into the engine imo and the simulation was looking more awkward and uncanny than ever before.

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12 minutes ago, upthetoon said:

Absolutely shocking that the minimum requirement, is a processor that is 18 years old.

says it all really about why we are where we are.

Most people that play FM are probably not “gamers”

so it’s understandable that they wouldn’t upgrade just to play FM. 
 

completely ignoring that base for a company that isn’t EA is probably a death sentence and we wouldn’t even have FM.

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2 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said:

I did noticed some major differences in the AI programming and overall gameplay dynamics within the match engine from FM12 to FM13 so I believe you. Thing is, to me this felt like a proper downgrade in all fairness since these tweaks weren't particularly well implemented into the engine imo and the simulation was looking more awkward and uncanny than ever before.

The match engine isn't designed with one or two years in mind. It's an endless long term project to ultimately get as close to real life as possible. FM12's engine wasn't retired because it was bad, but because all the things we want now, need to be underpinned by real life physics. Something as simple jostling, is complex physics. Not always going to hit the high mark, but it is fundamental to the progress people want. Hence working on the ME every year. It's why the MO-cap stuff is actually really important. It's not just animations, but its important in improving the base physics of the game, the more you improve that, the more you can improve all the aspects, and that leads us to better and more complex dribbling animations at the top. BUt's its all inteconnected

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4 minutos atrás, Zemahh disse:

FCVly4n.jpg

Jeez...you could fit another face in the forehead of that regen from FM17...man, it looks uncanny as hell!

Edited by CEVR1996
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1 minute ago, Zemahh said:

FCVly4n.jpg

They'll claim they had to move on from old regen faces because of their 3D engine. But we've had a 3D engine since FM 2009 and faces were never an issue.

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16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Most of this thread is opinion and hypothetical arguments tbh

That's fine, but if you (a general you, not you you) are going to completely dismiss someone's opinion because there's "no evidence to back it up", you shouldn't dismiss it with a hypothetical that's also not based in evidence.

Edited by goranm
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1 minute ago, orlyzao said:

They'll claim they had to move on from old regen faces because of their 3D engine. But we've had a 3D engine since FM 2009 and faces were never an issue.

Old 3D engine players didn’t have faces on the pitch.

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If you cannot distinguish players on a pitch from one another and they all look basically the same in 2020 then it’s laziness.  Even an attempt to do the top divisions should be made.

Edited by Dbuk1
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Just now, Mars_Blackmon said:

Old 3D engine players didn’t have faces on the pitch.

Good. It's not like the playerbase have PCs good enough to get on that level of detail amirite

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1 minute ago, Dbuk1 said:

they all look basically the same in 2020 then it’s laziness.  

Can you stop with the insults? I know this is GD but this is a bit much now. Your post assumes things. The quoted bit here is simply licensing. They can't have certain likenesses in the game that make players stand out too much. Image rights and all that. That's why you don't even have long hair and afros show in the ME.

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6 minutes ago, orlyzao said:

Good. It's not like the playerbase have PCs good enough to get on that level of detail amirite

People with old PC’s can still use the 3D engine just fine.

 

tbh I don’t think that base really care about that in the first place.

at the end of the day it’s all a balancing act.

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3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Can you stop with the insults? I know this is GD but this is a bit much now. Your post assumes things. The quoted bit here is simply licensing. They can't have certain likenesses in the game that make players stand out too much. Image rights and all that. That's why you don't even have long hair and afros show in the ME.

Is this right enough ?

How do games with comprehensive character creators get round the issue then ?  

 

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3 hours ago, Dbuk1 said:

I can imagine when the whole champ manager split happened years and years back that the staff were very worried and worked their ass off to make sure they had the best product on the market. Since the competition is zero there is no doubt that the game has very very slowly progressed. It’s a great game. But we demand more when it is essentially an unglorified database upgrade. Everybody would be happy with a match engine that looks better (not everybody cares about it) but they would be happy with it. 2020 deserves it for Christ sake. It’s a visual disaster that should be ashamed of itself. 

When the split happened, I’m pretty sure I read (could be wrong on this, but 95% sure I’m not, but it was 16 years ago now so there’s 5% doubt) SI took all the code, and Eidos basically got the Championship name. The reason CM tanked in a few years is because what they built from scratch was massively sub par to what FM put out (that being said, 2 features that stood out were the ability to put players in any position on the pitch, not locked to the 5 x 5 grid, and the ability to give squad numbers to international squads were both pretty cool), not because one set of devs worked harder than another.

The competition argument doesn’t hold much water, especially when you consider that FIFA has had competition for years in the form of PES, and while FIFA looks pretty, it plays like a dogs rear end, and the manager mode is shocking. At this point it’s Ultimate team with a few other features attached, and they charge nearly double what SI charge for FM, all so you can spend your time losing to some Virgin on the internet who used mummy’s credit card to buy a literal f***ton of packs until he got Messi, Ronaldo, and 9 players with 90+ pace to play with.

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3 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Is this right enough ?

How do games with comprehensive character creators get round the issue then ?  

 

Are they football games? Are they licenced players and leagues? Otherwise it's not a fair comparison.

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10 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Can you stop with the insults? I know this is GD but this is a bit much now. Your post assumes things. The quoted bit here is simply licensing. They can't have certain likenesses in the game that make players stand out too much. Image rights and all that. That's why you don't even have long hair and afros show in the ME.

Every other sports game in the world manages it. I don't agree that we should be able to distinguish every player from the camera angles we get in FM, but this excuse is nonsense. 

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1 minute ago, Bradley21 said:

Every other sports game in the world manages it. I don't agree that we should be able to distinguish every player from the camera angles we get in FM, but this excuse is nonsense. 

When it's the actual reason, it isn't an excuse. There's a licence required to model player likenesses. It's why you can only zoom in so much (for obvious reasons) and why the players look a bit generic.

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15 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Old 3D engine players didn’t have faces on the pitch.

I don't think it has something to do with the regens 3D faces because all players (and managers) on the pitch have the same default face. At least that's how it was in FM 2019. In fact, you'll never notice it because there is no ingame camera which allows you to see such details so close. I noticed it only using a free camera in my mod for FM 2019.

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Just now, HUNT3R said:

When it's the actual reason, it isn't an excuse.

It's an excuse when it's apparently a reason for one developer when every other developer out there managed to not be hindered by it. SI should work it out. 

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1 minute ago, Bradley21 said:

every other developer out there 

This is just plainly false. Let SI manage the licencing as they see fit. These things cost money and it's not as if they a) would not have looked at it already and b) know the pros and cons of potentially obtaining it.

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27 minutes ago, Mars_Blackmon said:

Most people that play FM are probably not “gamers”

so it’s understandable that they wouldn’t upgrade just to play FM. 
 

completely ignoring that base for a company that isn’t EA is probably a death sentence and we wouldn’t even have FM.

I'm not buying that argument for the following reason. One of the main selling points of FM is that you can load up X amount of leagues with Y amount of players and staff. The more of X and Y you want, the better processor you need. Every year we've been getting more detailed leagues and a more detailed database - but why, if there's a customer base that will only ever be able to utilize just a fraction of the database? Why does it matter that this customer base wouldn't be able to run graphics on super-high settings, but at the same time it doesn't matter that it can't utilize more than 5% of the database in a single save?

Edited by goranm
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1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

This is just plainly false. Let SI manage the licencing as they see fit. These things cost money and it's not as if they a) would not have looked at it already and b) know the pros and cons of potentially obtaining it.

They don't need licenses simply for better faces in the game. Nobody is really asking for the player photos in the game, but to say players can't be detailed because of likeness issues is absurd. 

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Just now, goranm said:

I'm not buying that argument for the following reason. One of the main selling points of FM is that you can load up X amount of leagues with Y amount of players and staff. The more of X and Y you want, the better processor you need. Every year we've been getting more detailed leagues and a more detailed database - but why, if there's a customer base that will only ever be able to utilize just a fraction of the database? Why does it matter that this customer base wouldn't be able to run graphics on super-high settings, but at the same time it doesn't matter that it can't utilize more than 5% of the database?

I suspect laptops are the biggest reason. While you can compromise on processing (loading more or fewer leagues) there are fewer compromises to be made when it comes to graphics and a lot of laptops have poor integrated graphics. I'm not sure what % was cut with the new lighting system in FM18, but we had a fair amount of tech reports where people were using under spec PCs/Laptops and so they couldn't play the game anymore.

SI know the player base. As always, they would need to weigh up the costs of improving graphics vs the customers they're cutting off vs the customers they could potentially gain.

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5 minutes ago, goranm said:

I'm not buying that argument for the following reason. One of the main selling points of FM is that you can load up X amount of leagues with Y amount of players and staff. The more of X and Y you want, the better processor you need. Every year we've been getting more detailed leagues and a more detailed database - but why, if there's a customer base that will only ever be able to utilize just a fraction of the database? Why does it matter that this customer base wouldn't be able to run graphics on super-high settings, but at the same time it doesn't matter that it can't utilize more than 5% of the database?

I have a 2009 iMac (with upgraded RAM because I also producer music on it) and play just fine with a every league loaded on full. Just looking at different forums, I’m always in the minority of players who load up every league so I really doubt that this is a common thing for people. I’m willing to bet that most people just load up top leagues.

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2 minutes ago, Bradley21 said:

They don't need licenses simply for better faces in the game. Nobody is really asking for the player photos in the game, but to say players can't be detailed because of likeness issues is absurd. 

They do. It's literally tied to player image rights. We've even seen evidence of this in the past with certain players where SI can't even use their real name in the game. And we see a lot of real players with no photos. It is absurd, but these are the times we live in. So much is covered by different licenses.

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40 minutos atrás, themadsheep2001 disse:

The match engine isn't designed with one or two years in mind. It's an endless long term project to ultimately get as close to real life as possible. FM12's engine wasn't retired because it was bad, but because all the things we want now, need to be underpinned by real life physics. Something as simple jostling, is complex physics. Not always going to hit the high mark, but it is fundamental to the progress people want. Hence working on the ME every year. It's why the MO-cap stuff is actually really important. It's not just animations, but its important in improving the base physics of the game, the more you improve that, the more you can improve all the aspects, and that leads us to better and more complex dribbling animations at the top. BUt's its all inteconnected

Then I think the current match engine FM runs on has hit it's potential ceiling just like the one FM12 had did back in 2012. Anyways, it's up to the developers to choose whatever direction they want FM to follow and we as the consumer can only express our satisfaction or discontent for it in the form of feedback, ideally of the constructive kind, but by looking at what's being said here, numerous people are under the consensus that the match engine really needs to undergo a substantial transformation for future editions of FM because it remains lackluster amongst the remaining aspects of the game.

Edited by CEVR1996
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10 minutes ago, CEVR1996 said:

Then I think the current match engine FM runs on has hit it's potential ceiling just like the one FM12 had did back in 2012. Anyways, it's up to the developers to choose whatever direction they want FM to follow and we as the consumer can only express our satisfaction or discontent for it in the form of feedback, ideally of the constructive kind, but by looking at what's being said here, numerous people are under the consensus that the match engine really needs to undergo a substantial transformation for future editions of FM because it remains lackluster amongst the remaining aspects of the game.

I can see this being a possibility in the future especially if the Xbox version does well.

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47 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Can you stop with the insults? I know this is GD but this is a bit much now. Your post assumes things. The quoted bit here is simply licensing. They can't have certain likenesses in the game that make players stand out too much. Image rights and all that. That's why you don't even have long hair and afros show in the ME.

Didn’t mean the insult I apologise. I was stating something which is factual in life. No competition makes people lazy. 

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4 minutes ago, grade said:

This is the problem of this way of marketing has been done for years, for this game. The, telling us the features, rather than showing. Why not show us these changes in a for example a whole 10 minute video or more. Too long do a 5 minute video. I don't mean the screen capture of the match engine footage, with the word Working in Progress. That every studio can do. be different. Do something different that others haven't done before. Show us what changed, how these changes are for the betterment of the game and the gameplay?

Don't do it, through an actor or glorify Youtuber, who are reading through a script (rather sound like it). Have the head developer talk about the new features... Do it for example like many studios do, have a Head Developer talk in a sort of features breakdown his/hers team implemented on the new game (not only on FM but as well FMT and Mobile). A sort of interview, for example. Or an Insider prospect inside the studio or the game or specific feature. Talk about the game show us what change. Don't do headliners and phrases and teaser of teaser, of teaser trailers of the less then a second peak of specific game screen. We wouldn't have half the boxing matches discussions in threads like this. If SI Show us what changed, things would be different the fan base would be more knowledge about the game and perhaps understood why certain things were done the way they were. Have a 2 minute conversation with Miles why they cater for low spec computers, or why they have made decisions regarding the graphics of the matches. Don't just stay there or do these only about a Month from the release of the new version, keep the fanbase engage with Insider peaked and interviews, game designers, but also fans, professional footballers, Managers and how these game real life football are in the game. Do something year round. Do history video, like how to game changed. You have like 15 years of games and that is only counting FM alone.

Do something to engage with the fans. Maybe, just maybe, these forums would have better ambience.

Every time a Dev comes in here, people take shots at them. That's not even accounting for the fact they are actually incredibly busy with the main function of their job. Not everyone wants to be on camera either. Its something SI have considered, but its also not that straightforward. For all the talk of engagement, everytime Neil comments, there's always a bunch of people insulting. Engagement can't happen if people aren't actually willing to listen in the first place, and I say that as someone who would love to see more dev interaction (and there used to be a lot more in the past until people took it to far, and they started staying away)

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1 час назад, HUNT3R сказал:

players look a bit generic.

newgens look generic too. Even in profiles. Have no idea why you raised licences is a reason of low faces, because I still remember my favourite longsave in FM10 where I know all generated players in face (because they were different) and modern faces which looks like close relatives

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2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Every time a Dev comes in here, people take shots at them. That's not even accounting for the fact they are actually incredibly busy with the main function of their job. Not everyone wants to be on camera either. Its something SI have considered, but its also not that straightforward. For all the talk of engagement, everytime Neil comments, there's always a bunch of people insulting. Engagement can't happen if people aren't actually willing to listen in the first place

Yes, not everyone wants to be on camera, i agree. But I'm not saying everybody. just do with those that want to.

As for comments and people taking jabs on Neil and insulting. First I don't see any name calling per se, but rather seeing someone taking no for an answer and if it insulting, the moderators can delete that said post, it is after all part of their job description. Why do the others who are here helping and enjoying the the forum and learning from others, have to be deprived of engaging with SI, because of vocal minority. It is quite easy. 1- Don't sink at their level. 2-Ignore them. 3-If they're really insulting, ban them. 4- if they return with different user name and continuing insulting, ban them again and again and again, that person will eventually learn that his way of conduct is not fine. And this way SI developers that wish to engage with us can do so.

As is things are not fine, because many users feel this lack of engagement with SI developers with their fan base. No matter how much, Neil say they are listening to their fanbase and what not, the example in the forums as is showing us otherwise. Thus you have these sort of threads.

And even if SI developers, don't want to engage directly with us in the forums, they can do it other ways, like making Youtube videos. they don't need bother reply on the comment section, but by giving information to us, being present is indirectly engaging us, but engaging with us nonetheless. I think things would be better.

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49 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

Is this right enough ?

How do games with comprehensive character creators get round the issue then ?  

 

They often don't - games like City of Heroes ended up being sued because people were able to make replicas of Marvel characters for which the game didn't have a licence. They ended up having to settle in court (which included them purchasing a licence, I believe) in order to keep those customisation options.

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2 minutes ago, grade said:

Yes, not everyone wants to be on camera, i agree. But I'm not saying everybody. just do with those that want to.

As for comments and people taking jabs on Neil and insulting. First I don't see any name calling per se, but rather seeing someone taking no for an answer and if it insulting, the moderators can delete that said post, it is after all part of their job description. Why do the others who are here helping and enjoying the the forum and learning from others, have to be deprived of engaging with SI, because of vocal minority. It is quite easy. 1- Don't sink at their level. 2-Ignore them. 3-If they're really insulting, ban them. 4- if they return with different user name and continuing insulting, ban them again and again and again, that person will eventually learn that his way of conduct is not fine. And this way SI developers that wish to engage with us can do so.

As is things are not fine, because many users feel this lack of engagement with SI developers with their fan base. No matter how much, Neil say they are listening to their fanbase and what not, the example in the forums as is showing us otherwise. Thus you have these sort of threads.

And even if SI developers, don't want to engage directly with us in the forums, they can do it other ways, like making Youtube videos. they don't need bother reply on the comment section, but by giving information to us, being present is indirectly engaging us, but engaging with us nonetheless. I think things would be better.

As I said, it is something they have considered and may do in future, but they are less likely to do it if its going to be stick to beat them with, especially when they have a lot going on with their day to day jobs as it is. 

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2 hours ago, goranm said:

You're just countering an opinion with a hypothetical, without any evidence to back it up. What if in 12 months when reviewing sales figures the meeting goes "So uh guys, whose idea was to put in a better graphics engine? We made bank, promote that person immediately!"

Well there's an established history of how the game has sold and performed. I don't have access to the figures, but the methods SI currently employ have allowed them to continue growing their studio and remain at the forefront of their segment of the games market - despite being a substantially smaller studio than what would typically be a market leader.

I will concede that I don't know if shrinking your potential customer base by making the game require a more demanding system, increasing expenditure by licensing a graphics engine such as unreal or one of the others, incurring the costs to deploy that in the game in terms of staff won't generate more sales.

However, typically speaking increasing your overheads to reduce your potential customers doesn't often work. You could argue that SI could just keep the two and run them concurrently. That would be an even bigger financial drain to maintain two, have them staffed, have them bug tested, bug fixed etc. 

It's the kind of risk that if you get it wrong, can close a studio or requires substantial financing,

My understanding is SI tend to develop their own technologies in-house, which reduces their financial burdens and in the long run is aimed at positioning them better to increase the quality of things like graphics, without it siphoning off revenue. 

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11 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Every time a Dev comes in here, people take shots at them. That's not even accounting for the fact they are actually incredibly busy with the main function of

8 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

They often don't - games like City of Heroes ended up being sued because people were able to make replicas of Marvel characters for which the game didn't have a licence. They ended up having to settle in court (which included them purchasing a licence, I believe) in order to keep those customisation options.

e talk of engagement, everytime Neil comments, there's always a bunch of people insulting. Engagement can't happen if people aren't actually willing to listen in the first place, and I  to far, and they 

Ppl use image too add League on the game

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24 минуты назад, themadsheep2001 сказал:

That's not even accounting for the fact they are actually incredibly busy with the main function of their job

Companies have a department of Public Relations mostly. Only indi developer need to contact directly, especially against own decision. Mostly.
Moderators try to 'protect' SI but some statements in this thread work against them

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5 minutes ago, Novem9 said:

Companies have a department of Public Relations mostly. Only indi developer need to contact directly, especially against own decision. Mostly.
Moderators try to 'protect' SI but some statements in this thread work against them

And Neil is in here a lot, and gets a lot of abuse for it, and that discourages other devs from coming in

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Will/Has the scheduling fixtures been fixed in terms of postponed games and ending up having to face the same team, 2, 3 or even 4 times in a row? Happens especially after 3/4 years into a save and has occured on the last few FMs.

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Every time they go further down the path of licensing - making it an official product of such and such league or team, releasing the Arsenal Edition or whatever it was - I personally worry that they're going to take a big axe to the pregame editor, etc. I already worry that we never see players fighting or "kicking off" because of issues with licensing. So you can play through a whole season of Liga MX or lower league England, and you'll never see the players get into each others' faces. I think there's a commentary line about crowding the ref but there's not really an animation for it?

And was the regen face thing ever properly explained? The only thing I can come up with is they had a deal with the company they farmed it off to with the old 2D faces (Facegen) and the deal expired, or the company wanted too much money, or the company didn't want their stuff in the game or something. Because it looks much worse, it obviously doesn't show up in the 3D match engine (nor should it on a game that needs to run on low-spec computers, faces are very far down the list of details they need), and it has to take up a lot of resources from the art department they can be using on fresher/country-unique stadium models, for example. Like even if the faces don't look good it's clearly very hard to build them from scratch almost every year?

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10 minutes ago, destmez said:

Ppl use image too add League on the game

Yes, and that's why a lot of sites that provide downloads for that sort of thing got cease and desist letters for their trouble.

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13 minutes ago, Richardcharlston said:

Let’s hope SI utilise one of FM Engineers mods to the match physics file, improves the game viewing immensely.

why can’t SI use the graphics made by the community, eg Flut skin, the cut out face packs, SS kits etc- they are so much better

licensing. Can only use faces of the leagues you have license for.  Same with kits.   

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