Moyes/Irvine New Hammers tactic

[romayrag]

I’ve been looking for a new challenge in this years FM with just a short time until the next instalment and I’d like to build whatever the weird formation And tactic it is that West Ham are now playing. I thought I might reach out to the wonderful tactile geniuses here for some help. I think that’s about the right amount of sucking up?

i figure it’s a mostly 3-3-3-1 but some weird asymmetric set up 

postitions and roles I think are 

 

Gk - SKd

LB - IWBd

LCB - NCBd

RCB - CBd

RB - FB au

LWB - WBa

DMC - DLPd

MCL - Mez su

MCR - BTB su

AMR - IW at

ST - TM su

So the 2 in the above I’m nut sure about are the

LB - Creswell has been a CB but does bomb on to support Masuaku, however I’m not convinced the IWB is this right role but it make him come more central

ST - Antonio has been the battering ram holding the ball up, much like a Target man and has got on the end of  crosses but he also gets wide and comes deep so not sure TM is the right role.

 

any thoughts on this from anyone before I move on to the TI and PI?

Edited October 5, 2020 by romayrag

[dazza11]

Brave man! It’s definitely one of the weirder formations, and very negative with the ball, however 4-0 and 3-0 have been mightily impressive results. it’s basically sit deep and narrow, and hit Antonio/ Bowen on the break. 
Having watched their last couple of games id say Cresswell starts narrow, moving wide and forward when they have the ball so he’s prob more of a bpd set to stay wider. 
Masauku def as WB, your choice of S or A depending on how well Cresswell performs behind him and what you do with Fornals. 
Rice is generally there to break up play so maybe more of a bwm? I’m not sure he has the passing ability or vision to be a dlp. 

Soucek is a bbm, maybe can add gets forward more ppm. 
 Bowen id say more of a IFa, and he’s AMR not AML, he likes to offer width but he’s definitely there to provide the secondary goal threat to Antonio,  which leaves Antonio and Fornals.
I’m not sure TM does Antonio justice because of the amount of running in behind he does, so I’d say more of an AF or even a PF with move into channels. 
Which leaves Fornals. I’d love to see a pre match team talk, because I’m not even sure Fornals knows what his role is. He seems to run up/down that left channel like a headless chicken with not much quality ( his goal on Sunday I think summed him up, great first touch, awful last touch meant he was sliding/falling as he shot). 
Half his job seems to be covering for Masuaku’s lack of energy/game management, whilst not leaving Antonio completely isolated. 
In FM terms, bbm with run wider trait? OR WMs with sit narrower and cut inside ppm?

Am a big hammers fan, so will love to see how you go with this. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by dazza11

[romayrag]

5 minutes ago, dazza11 said:

Brave man! It’s definitely one of the weirder formations, and very negative with the ball, however 4-0 and 3-0 have been mightily impressive results. it’s basically sit deep and narrow, and hit Antonio/ Bowen on the break. 
Having watched their last couple of games id say Cresswell starts narrow, moving wide and forward when they have the ball so he’s prob more of a bpd set to stay wider. 
Masauku def as WB, your choice of S or A depending on how well Cresswell performs behind him and what you do with Fornals. 
Rice is generally there to break up play so maybe more of a bwm? I’m not sure he has the passing ability or vision to be a dlp. 

Soucek is a bbm, maybe can add gets forward more ppm. 
 Bowen id say more of a IFa, and he’s AMR not AML, he likes to offer width but he’s definitely there to provide the secondary goal threat to Antonio,  which leaves Antonio and Fornals.
I’m not sure TM does Antonio justice because of the amount of running in behind he does, so I’d say more of an AF or even a PF with move into channels. 
Which leaves Fornals. I’d love to see a pre match team talk, because I’m not even sure Fornals knows what his role is. He seems to run up/down that left channel like a headless chicken with not much quality ( his goal on Sunday I think summed him up, great first touch, awful last touch meant he was sliding/falling as he shot). 
Half his job seems to be covering for Masuaku’s lack of energy/game management, whilst not leaving Antonio completely isolated. 
In FM terms, bbm with run wider trait? OR WMs with sit narrower and cut inside ppm?

Am a big hammers fan, so will love to see how you go with this. 

Yeah Bowen Right side, just a typo!

Agree with you on Rice but I think we will see him becoming more of the DLP in the DMC role.

Creswell is my big issue with how to play him and what role. No role I put him in seems to quite work for the way we play with him IRL I think I am going to stick with him at LB as a WB su but with a sit narrower instruction.

Ogbonna tends to sit as the central DC but I just dont think it will work unless i move him to the DCl postion.

What I have so Far is this 

 

[32MJ32]

11 hours ago, romayrag said:

Yeah Bowen Right side, just a typo!

Agree with you on Rice but I think we will see him becoming more of the DLP in the DMC role.

Creswell is my big issue with how to play him and what role. No role I put him in seems to quite work for the way we play with him IRL I think I am going to stick with him at LB as a WB su but with a sit narrower instruction.

Ogbonna tends to sit as the central DC but I just dont think it will work unless i move him to the DCl postion.

What I have so Far is this 

 

 

Good stuff! Please keep this thread updated as you go. It's not an easy one to draw up.

I'm a Hammer as well and actually an Inter fan. My 2 cents is that the system borrows heavily from Conte's 3-5-2/3-4-1-2 but more the version he used at Chelsea.

If you remember, Azpilicueta was absolutely brilliant in the role Cresswell has now - the left of the 3 CB's. He would trot forward and play balls over the top to Morata/Diego Costa in the exact same manner Cress picked out Antonio on the weekend. Azpi had 10 or so assists during Conte's time there, which is obviously bonkers for a central defender.

Now I have good and bad news, FM wise:

Good: I play with 3 at the back and have seen that sort of behavior - dribbling beyond halfway - from the CB's on either side

Bad: I've only seen it from CB's with Stopper duties and the Brings Ball Out Of Defence PPM - and I've yet to see any of them play the sort of back post long diagonal you'd want 

That's not to say it isn't possible to train Cress with that PPM or have him execute those passes with the proper player or team instructions. 

Here's my quick shout on the player roles, which I'd summarise as "trying to create West Ham's tactic while also trying not to get completely crushed in FM20." If I were to start a West Ham save, here's what I'd go with and why:

3-3-2-1-1

Antonio

CF(S)

Tackle Harder

Asked to a bit of everything as a one man band up front and get stuck in defensively. I'd go with a Support duty as, IMO, he regularly drops below halfway to help out and the CF(A) in FM20 does not

Bowen

AM(A) - Central

Moves Into Channels

Roam From Position

Bursting off into space without the ball or dribbling at players with it

Masuaku

WB(A) - Left

Surrogate winger

Rice

DM BWM(D)

I like Declan a lot but I don't think he's a playmaker in the FM sense. He's the ball winner and engine of the side. Stuck with a D duty here for tactical balance. And FWIW, players with a D duty will still get forward regularly enough against a packed defense

Coufal (or equivalent)

WB (S)

Does a job defending and supporting attacks

Cresswell - Left sided

BPD(S)

As you said, hard one to define. However, I think this could work if the TI's are right (More Direct Passing, Pass Into Space etc.)

Oggy - Central

CD(CO)

You need one CD on CO with 2 S's, IMO

Balbuena - CD(S)

The stopper on the other side. This could be Diop as well. I actually don't know the Hammers attributes or PPM's well at all...

The way I see this looking is you have Rice playing safe passes to Soucek, Fornals, Masuaku and Bowen for them to build attacks with. And Cresswell to trot forward to help and look for the long killer ball over the the top. If you can get the tempo right, there's a chance Soucek and Bowen will be far enough advanced for Cress to pick out when he gets the ball from Rice

Happy Hammering. I'd love to hear how it goes

 

Edited October 6, 2020 by 32MJ32

[romayrag]

4 hours ago, 32MJ32 said:

 

Good stuff! Please keep this thread updated as you go. It's not an easy one to draw up.

I'm a Hammer as well and actually an Inter fan. My 2 cents is that the system borrows heavily from Conte's 3-5-2/3-4-1-2 but more the version he used at Chelsea.

If you remember, Azpilicueta was absolutely brilliant in the role Cresswell has now - the left of the 3 CB's. He would trot forward and play balls over the top to Morata/Diego Costa in the exact same manner Cress picked out Antonio on the weekend. Azpi had 10 or so assists during Conte's time there, which is obviously bonkers for a central defender.

Now I have good and bad news, FM wise:

Good: I play with 3 at the back and have seen that sort of behavior - dribbling beyond halfway - from the CB's on either side

Bad: I've only seen it from CB's with Stopper duties and the Brings Ball Out Of Defence PPM - and I've yet to see any of them play the sort of back post long diagonal you'd want 

That's not to say it isn't possible to train Cress with that PPM or have him execute those passes with the proper player or team instructions. 

Here's my quick shout on the player roles, which I'd summarise as "trying to create West Ham's tactic while also trying not to get completely crushed in FM20." If I were to start a West Ham save, here's what I'd go with and why:

3-3-2-1-1

Antonio

CF(S)

Tackle Harder

Asked to a bit of everything as a one man band up front and get stuck in defensively. I'd go with a Support duty as, IMO, he regularly drops below halfway to help out and the CF(A) in FM20 does not

Bowen

AM(A) - Central

Moves Into Channels

Roam From Position

Bursting off into space without the ball or dribbling at players with it

Masuaku

WB(A) - Left

Surrogate winger

Rice

DM BWM(D)

I like Declan a lot but I don't think he's a playmaker in the FM sense. He's the ball winner and engine of the side. Stuck with a D duty here for tactical balance. And FWIW, players with a D duty will still get forward regularly enough against a packed defense

Coufal (or equivalent)

WB (S)

Does a job defending and supporting attacks

Cresswell - Left sided

BPD(S)

As you said, hard one to define. However, I think this could work if the TI's are right (More Direct Passing, Pass Into Space etc.)

Oggy - Central

CD(CO)

You need one CD on CO with 2 S's, IMO

Balbuena - CD(S)

The stopper on the other side. This could be Diop as well. I actually don't know the Hammers attributes or PPM's well at all...

The way I see this looking is you have Rice playing safe passes to Soucek, Fornals, Masuaku and Bowen for them to build attacks with. And Cresswell to trot forward to help and look for the long killer ball over the the top. If you can get the tempo right, there's a chance Soucek and Bowen will be far enough advanced for Cress to pick out when he gets the ball from Rice

Happy Hammering. I'd love to hear how it goes

 

Thanks for the feedback. Ive started with the above that I posted and adjust the mentality based on the opposition.

First game rather than try and directly copy the team Moyes/ Irvine have put out I have had to use the players as they are in FM. Maybe I can get a tune from Haller and Anderson  (although i nearly sold the later to a Chinese team).

I have had mixed results in friendlies I lost a couple and won a few as I was messing with the players and set up. However I felt it was progressing well as I went.

First 2 matches are Man Utd H & Arsenal A

Decided to go with a cautious approach against Utd sat Rice in the DMC position and started Wiltshere and Fornals in the centre of the park. No denying that Utd dominated possession and chances however a lot were from distance and they were frustrated. The more attacking they became the more we could hit them on the break. Took the lead in the first half as Haller drifted wide and put a delightful cross in for Anderson to cut in off the right wing and finish smartly. 1-0 at half time

Wiltshere and Fornals were poor in the middle of the park and we looked much more stable when we had Sanchez (i know i know) as the BBM and Lanzini as the Mez. Lanzini managed to secure the 2-0 with a sharp finish from about 12 yards after good work from Anderson on the right and a cut back from Creswell.

A promising start. will be interested to see what the Arsenal game brings

[romayrag]

OH and I brought in Justin James at right back on loan with an option to buy as Zabalata got injured and also brought Shuurs in from Ajax on a similar deal just to help cover the CB area. Final I felt i wanted a little more cover in CM area so in comes Shabani again on loan with option to buy from Wolves.