Football Manager 2021 - Out November 24th

[wisconsin]

Planning on getting way into this. Not sure how I feel about realism regarding covid, but it’s about as predictable as Fabian Barthez at this point so who knows how to deal with it in a football management game. 

[zakbrown96]

14 hours ago, FrazT said:

There is no mention of a graphics card but I will assume that it will be onboard and so limited.  The processor is, I believe, below min spec for the game, so that machine will be borderline for running the game and certainly not capable of normal 3D gaming.  I would strongly suggest that you try the demo to see if that runs before purchasing the game

Could always play via stadia 

[LolloViola]

As one of those being disappointed (a lot) with FM20 engine, how I'd like to be one of those "I'm gonna wait and see" without ending with day one box edition in my shelf. 

 

 

[Chilled111]

Really pleased with the release date as was anticipating a longer delay if I am honest. Will be a really interesting period to see what is in this year’s game. I have said on a different thread that I wouldn’t want to see Covid included. However will be interested to see how the SI team choose to work out team budgets as in real world we can see the impacts on finances and transfer fees and player wages etc. Many clubs are looking at loaning in players rather than buying with maybe an option to buy 12 months down the line.

 

Something else interesting to see will be things like handball and of course the dreaded VAR! Already we are seeing this season that the above is having a greater impact on games and results. I feel VAR in FM is something that needs to be improved albeit I do understand it can feel like a pain also, but like it or not its part of every goal in terms of some form of check taking place.

 

Also hope this year there are the Twitch / You Tube feeds with the guys showing off any changes and the match engine etc as I have really enjoyed them the last couple of years. I find it helps build the anticipation and excitement as I know then the game is getting closer and closer! Hope that social distancing guidelines doesn’t rule that out as an option.

 

Looking forward to another great FM as I know what a great job all the team at SI Games do to bring us such an enjoyable product each year, cant wait as always!!

[StevehFC]

Will be holding off to see if the ME has improved. Getting fed up paying for a game every year where some bugs are still not fixed. 

[Nio 10]

well that's great news we are two months away from release.

i would like to see better located attributes for the newgens.

[Luizinho]

23 hours ago, StevehFC said:

Will be holding off to see if the ME has improved. Getting fed up paying for a game every year where some bugs are still not fixed. 

Yes I’m 100% in the same boat

I’ll give the Demo a go but the ME will be the main aspect that I’ll look at.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Luizinho

[afailed10]

Yes we really need a strong ME this year. I'll be playing the demo until I see a clear improvement on FM19 and 20. Especially the issue with the AI and lower mentalities.

[Mr U Rosler]

I'm actually hoping for less realism this year, I don't want to be reminded of Covid doing the thing I do to escape from the realilty of Covid. (amended budgets are fine)

The current handball interpretation has stopped me watching live football, if its implemented into FM like that it will stop me playing FM as well.

I appreciate they are somewhat duty bound to follow reality, as a compromise I could stomach 1 season of both, after which Si can create there own happy future where both have disappeared.   

 

[Dagenham_Dave]

4 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

 

The current handball interpretation has stopped me watching live football

 

 

Me too, it's ruined the game. 

[Lexis]

Absolutely can t wait for them to tease the grand new features like they did on FM20 and ask full retail price for it.

- Brand New scouting center that shows the same info as before, only reordered.

- Decade long objectives for long term players, basically season objectives but for the next 10 years.

- A revamped match engine. New meta, same graphics, 95% same horrible bugs.

- New conversation options! Five new lines to click when talking to your players and get random reactions.

- All new user friendly interface! Same menus you ve always known, just reordered.

- All new VAR system! Same game as before just with 30 seconds stoppage every now and then with totally predictable VAR decisions.

- All new tactical styles! Give these 5 new tactical styles a try before you see they don t work and Gegenpress is still OP. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by Lexis

[Gegenklaus]

I didnt really like FM19 and 20, so why am I still so hyped for FM21?! goddammit I love there games

 

 

[He can't believe he's missed it]

4 hours ago, Lexis said:

Absolutely can t wait for them to tease the grand new features like they did on FM20 and ask full retail price for it.

- Brand New scouting center that shows the same info as before, only reordered.

- Decade long objectives for long term players, basically season objectives but for the next 10 years.

- A revamped match engine. New meta, same graphics, 95% same horrible bugs.

- New conversation options! Five new lines to click when talking to your players and get random reactions.

- All new user friendly interface! Same menus you ve always known, just reordered.

- All new VAR system! Same game as before just with 30 seconds stoppage every now and then with totally predictable VAR decisions.

- All new tactical styles! Give these 5 new tactical styles a try before you see they don t work and Gegenpress is still OP. 

I really do hope the VAR system changes, it does my head in where the implementation in the game is set up like it's there for a ref to simply stop a game and go and watch things to make up their mind about a decision that's tight, literally not how it works at all

[Lempicka]

I've spent all summer telling myself that I'll wait for the demo before purchasing this year. However, now it's available for pre-order, my finger won't stop hovering over the 'add to cart' button.

M-m-m-must resist - at least until new feature info is released. 

[Scotty Walds]

7 hours ago, He can't believe he's missed it said:

I really do hope the VAR system changes, it does my head in where the implementation in the game is set up like it's there for a ref to simply stop a game and go and watch things to make up their mind about a decision that's tight, literally not how it works at all

Actually, that is how it works this season. It wasn't last season in the PL - but in other countries they used the VAR screens more. I think SI used the system that was most popular across the world.

The only one I think is wrong now, is when it's VAR to decide if a foul was inside or outside the area - this is done by the VAR official, and not with the screen.

I think they need to change the animation for when the ref goes over to the screen - just an inset animation would do, or even fade to show a big screen with the result.

[MrPompey]

On 27/09/2020 at 17:13, StevehFC said:

Will be holding off to see if the ME has improved. Getting fed up paying for a game every year where some bugs are still not fixed. 

do you use any MS products?

[Kingstontom88]

Intrigued to see what the new features will be. There comes a point where surely SI hit a brick wall with what they can add every year!

As with others, I'll see what changes to the ME we see first. That being said, last year's BETA had a better ME than any of the official game versions that followed (just my opinion of course).

I'll probably end up buying, but FM20 was my least enjoyable game of the series for a long time - a shame, as all features outside the ME were very well implemented. Match day immersion was spoilt.

[HotDogManUK]

Oh you buggers 😂

I've been waiting for the normal PC release date and I'm delighted it's been announced but an Xbox one release, you bloody buggers 😂

I think I'll get the Xbox version and smash that over the holidays and then I'll get the PC version after the January transfer window update when it's on sale.

Basically forcing me to buy two versions, sneaky gits 😂😂😂

[davehanson]

3 hours ago, MrPompey said:

do you use any MS products?

What does that have to do with it though? Because one company's product (Microsoft) has bugs in it, which lets be honest we are more or less forced to use, it's okay for another company (SI) to release a product that, at the core of the product (ME) is as bad as FM20 is?

Such a lazy, poor response to a customers opinion - 'Well that company's product is as bad so what's your issue'.

[duesouth]

4 hours ago, Kingstontom88 said:

That being said, last year's BETA had a better ME than any of the official game versions that followed (just my opinion of course).

I would agree with that personally.  Indeed, I think the very short turnaround time to fix the 1 on 1's that were an issue in that pre-release beta seemed to create more problems than it fixed.  It seemed later attempts to patch the ME took longer in development - so perhaps that first patch should be delayed for future editions?

[He can't believe he's missed it]

5 hours ago, Scotty Walds said:

Actually, that is how it works this season. It wasn't last season in the PL - but in other countries they used the VAR screens more. I think SI used the system that was most popular across the world.

The only one I think is wrong now, is when it's VAR to decide if a foul was inside or outside the area - this is done by the VAR official, and not with the screen.

I think they need to change the animation for when the ref goes over to the screen - just an inset animation would do, or even fade to show a big screen with the result.

I don't mean the checking the screens, I mean the actual decisions that it was making.

In game I'm sure it says "was that a foul" or "was that inside the area" the ref is going to check, whereas the ref should give a decision and then it should say he's being urged to review his decision by VAR.

The game shows it as a tool for the refs to simply stop things and go and watch some replays to help them make an initial call

[99]

5 horas atrás, Kingstontom88 disse:

As with others, I'll see what changes to the ME we see first. That being said, last year's BETA had a better ME than any of the official game versions that followed (just my opinion of course).

Yes, FM19's Beta had a great ME. Shame it was for such short time and we can't go back.

[Ruh Roh]

I also think VAR is stuck to the advanced rules in a lot of leagues? IMO it would be better if you were able to deactivate just by unchecking it on the country page

[Weller1980]

Wasn't expecting such an early release, so quite pleased with that. We'll done SI it couldn't of been easy. 

I'd be happy with just ME improvements its the heart and soul of any football manager game. The game outside the ME is very good, however the ME in the last 2 or 3 versions hasn't been good enough which for me renders the improvement outside the engine meaningless. I'm hoping and optimistic for a much better ME experience. I hope SI have listened to all the feedback that they have received over the last 2 additions, if they have taken on board the community feedback then they know what's areas needed improving and hopefully that's been their focus. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Weller1980

[mdshep]

On 25/09/2020 at 22:51, dantares said:

Is FM21 Touch supposed to show up when you add the key on Steam, or will it be added only later on?

I don’t know but I’ve got the same happening on my steam 

[bobbyb12345]

I hope the communication on the forums is better this year.

Just not sure "Please create a post in the bugs forum" for issues that have persisted in the match engine for years should be an acceptable response anymore. 

Let's hope some of these issues have been resolved, of course!

[grade]

32 minutes ago, bobbyb12345 said:

I hope the communication on the forums is better this year.

Just not sure "Please create a post in the bugs forum" for issues that have persisted in the match engine for years should be an acceptable response anymore. 

Let's hope some of these issues have been resolved, of course!

The thing is, posting in the bugs forum, is for SI personal keeps track of them. If they are posted on general discussion threads it can be easy missed due to high traffic those threads are during releases and patch updates.

[andu1]

I would love to see an FM in which the AI Managers can adapt to use more formations and strategies than their preferred ones. It would make the game more unpredictable in the long term

[themadsheep2001]

28 minutes ago, grade said:

The thing is, posting in the bugs forum, is for SI personal keeps track of them. If they are posted on general discussion threads it can be easy missed due to high traffic those threads are during releases and patch updates.

Yep, is exactly why that forum exists, and also means they if multiple people bare reporting the same issue, it's allocated together

[VMX]

On 24/09/2020 at 22:02, HUNT3R said:

Stadia hasn't been finalised yet.

Could you give us any hint on whether the Stadia version will support cross-save with the PC version this year? Any chance? Or will it be like last year?

I'd love to play the Stadia version on my laptop since it struggles with the ME, but unfortunately FM is not a game where I can give up offline play completely. I play it too often on trains, planes, etc. where there's no coverage.

Having the option to continue my save from both Stadia or my local PC at any given time would be awesome.

Would love it if you could shed any light on this (either positive or negative!).

Edited September 30, 2020 by VMX

[MrPompey]

21 hours ago, davehanson said:

What does that have to do with it though? Because one company's product (Microsoft) has bugs in it, which lets be honest we are more or less forced to use, it's okay for another company (SI) to release a product that, at the core of the product (ME) is as bad as FM20 is?

Such a lazy, poor response to a customers opinion - 'Well that company's product is as bad so what's your issue'.

LOL - I dont work for SI but I do work in IT, you will never have bug free software - FACT. MS are likely one of the best funded companies, Boeing have a big budget also. You need to think that your statement saying it has loads of bugs is not helpful. Maybe one saying the same but here are my top ten, this is what it currently does which is wrong and this is what it should do is right is much more helpful in getting something resolved. If you post bugs in the bug forum you have greater chance of it getting fixed noting what's a priority to you may not be a priority in the grandscale of things. I say this in a polite helpful way based on 30 years experience testing software

[GPower88]

Hoping to see the return of some old features such as through balls to strikers and defensive headers from set pieces

[saiyaman]

1 hour ago, MrPompey said:

LOL - I dont work for SI but I do work in IT, you will never have bug free software - FACT. MS are likely one of the best funded companies, Boeing have a big budget also. You need to think that your statement saying it has loads of bugs is not helpful. Maybe one saying the same but here are my top ten, this is what it currently does which is wrong and this is what it should do is right is much more helpful in getting something resolved. If you post bugs in the bug forum you have greater chance of it getting fixed noting what's a priority to you may not be a priority in the grandscale of things. I say this in a polite helpful way based on 30 years experience testing software

While I do agree with your reasoning as I'm a Coder/Developer myself for 10+ years, when you charge money for your services, you better ensure that those services are the best damn thing if you expect people to be happy.

Or, the other way is to prioritize bugs according to what the people see as a problem. It's all well and good you think the product is good but it will definitely run into problems if your priorities do not coincide with your customers often.

So I do understand the funding difference. But that doesn't mean people are supposed to feel bad or something. People are paying up. This isn't a charity.

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, saiyaman said:

While I do agree with your reasoning as I'm a Coder/Developer myself for 10+ years, when you charge money for your services, you better ensure that those services are the best damn thing if you expect people to be happy.

Or, the other way is to prioritize bugs according to what the people see as a problem. It's all well and good you think the product is good but it will definitely run into problems if your priorities do not coincide with your customers often.

So I do understand the funding difference. But that doesn't mean people are supposed to feel bad or something. People are paying up. This isn't a charity.

If you're doing your coding serving customers, then surely you see that every single customer is going to have differing opinions on what they see as a problem?  You really think they can deal with bugs that way?  If the game was designed in that way, it would be a Frankenstein's Monster of nonsense features.  The prioritisation will take into account what the people want, but it's ultimately SI's decision.  Hell, the "customers" I deal with will be a tiny number compared to SI's, and even that small group isn't going to have things exactly how they want.  Going out to please everyone isn't a sensible strategy.

Luckily, people have the power to fight against that.  You don't like the direction the product is going in?  Easy to not buy.  If everyone who is unhappy is still buying the game, then how are SI to know their direction is "wrong"?

Edited September 30, 2020 by forameuss

[akkm]

26 minutes ago, forameuss said:

If you're doing your coding serving customers, then surely you see that every single customer is going to have differing opinions on what they see as a problem?  You really think they can deal with bugs that way?  If the game was designed in that way, it would be a Frankenstein's Monster of nonsense features.  The prioritisation will take into account what the people want, but it's ultimately SI's decision.  Hell, the "customers" I deal with will be a tiny number compared to SI's, and even that small group isn't going to have things exactly how they want.  Going out to please everyone isn't a sensible strategy.

Luckily, people have the power to fight against that.  You don't like the direction the product is going in?  Easy to not buy.  If everyone who is unhappy is still buying the game, then how are SI to know their direction is "wrong"?

So you've hit the nail on the head there product not delivering then people shouldn't buy it. That's the messaging that will ensure any disconnect between customer satisfaction and SI decision making directionally is identified.

very interesting thing is FM is for many an addiction which they struggle to wean themselves off therefore even though the product may be not satisfactory and even not enjoyable especially relative to other year's releases then they'll still make the purchase adding to SIs overall sales numbers and thus nebulising the feedback customers convey through their ultimate action about the game. How then will SI infer they are matching back to customer satisfication. So yeah essentially customers expressing themselves with a non purchase is the key message on it

[davehanson]

3 hours ago, MrPompey said:

LOL - I dont work for SI but I do work in IT, you will never have bug free software - FACT. MS are likely one of the best funded companies, Boeing have a big budget also. You need to think that your statement saying it has loads of bugs is not helpful. Maybe one saying the same but here are my top ten, this is what it currently does which is wrong and this is what it should do is right is much more helpful in getting something resolved. If you post bugs in the bug forum you have greater chance of it getting fixed noting what's a priority to you may not be a priority in the grandscale of things. I say this in a polite helpful way based on 30 years experience testing software

I never said FM had loads of bugs in it! I also never said you would have bug free software - FACT.

The previous user stated that they would hold off until they saw if the ME had been improved. My whole statement to your comment was based on the ME being poor - nothing at all to do with bugs, simply that the ME is in a poor state. The same way I view anything else to be poor it no longer does the job it needs to do. It needs a re-write IMO.

So again, nothing to do with bugs,  simply that the ME overall in FM20 is in a really poor state and hopefully FM21 will be an improvement, but tbh I am not going to hold my breath. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by davehanson

[MrPompey]

2 hours ago, saiyaman said:

While I do agree with your reasoning as I'm a Coder/Developer myself for 10+ years, when you charge money for your services, you better ensure that those services are the best damn thing if you expect people to be happy.

Or, the other way is to prioritize bugs according to what the people see as a problem. It's all well and good you think the product is good but it will definitely run into problems if your priorities do not coincide with your customers often.

So I do understand the funding difference. But that doesn't mean people are supposed to feel bad or something. People are paying up. This isn't a charity.

I'm raising a defect on you

I suppose the only way we could affect the priorities is to have some kind of top "10" or more list of defects that a majority of FM gamers say are key. If enough forum members commented on this it may become clearer what the customers want and no doubt this would need to be balanced with change required in FM e.g. we are all fed up with the way the interactions work with reporters and playing staff but the actual change may be a major overall which may or may not be somewhere on an FM 5 year business plan. Its not perfect but its more constructive, this is my point really

I agree no-one should feel bad in raising issues, its how products improve but its the articulation of them  - this what helps bring the defects to focus

[MrPompey]

1 minute ago, davehanson said:

I never said FM had loads of bugs in it! I also never said you would have bug free software - FACT.

The previous user stated that they would hold off until they saw if the ME had been improved. My whole statement to your comment was based on the ME being poor - nothing at all to do with bugs, simply that the ME is in a poor state. The same way I view anything else to be poor it no longer does the job it needs to do. It needs a re-write IMO.

So again, nothing to do with bugs, I NEVER mentioned them, simply that the ME overall in FM20 is in a really poor state and hopefully FM21 will be an improvement, but tbh I am not going to hold my breath. 

I would disagree the ME is poor and I'm not sure that its the view of the majority of FM gamers. It could do with improvement. As I mentioned above, articulation of what is wrong with lots of evidence will only improve the chances of getting it resolved right?

[davehanson]

Just now, MrPompey said:

I would disagree the ME is poor and I'm not sure that its the view of the majority of FM gamers. It could do with improvement. As I mentioned above, articulation of what is wrong with lots of evidence will only improve the chances of getting it resolved right?

That's fine, of course everyone will have their own opinion on the ME as they should. What one person finds as unacceptable and 'unplayable' is not the same for everyone. I personally find FM20 as unplayable - in the fact it is, to me, a crossing and pressing simulator. I see very few through balls, very little central play, very few defence splitting passes with the striker beating the last line of defence. These are just some things which make the game 'unplayable' to me. I don't want to play the game the way that the game is forcing you to play, so therefore I choose not to. 

You may think that it is not the view of the majority of gamers, you may be right, who knows? The feedback on here though, and in the bugs forum, certainly highlights potential issues with the game though that hopefully SI have taken on board. 

[saiyaman]

1 hour ago, MrPompey said:

I'm raising a defect on you

I suppose the only way we could affect the priorities is to have some kind of top "10" or more list of defects that a majority of FM gamers say are key. If enough forum members commented on this it may become clearer what the customers want and no doubt this would need to be balanced with change required in FM e.g. we are all fed up with the way the interactions work with reporters and playing staff but the actual change may be a major overall which may or may not be somewhere on an FM 5 year business plan. Its not perfect but its more constructive, this is my point really

I agree no-one should feel bad in raising issues, its how products improve but its the articulation of them  - this what helps bring the defects to focus

  Excuse me while I take a well deserved vacation. I shall consider your defect entered in our system in...Valve Time. :D

Yeah I appreciate how SI put in an effort to create a beta to have people test out the .3 patch. That's brilliant and I hope they do more in the future. That sort of provided an insight about the difference of thinking between what SI consider important and what players think is important (Like Set Pieces).

I don't know I just want SI to probably implement what you said on the side: A revolving door of issues voted on by the community which they keep fixing at least once in a while.

1 hour ago, forameuss said:

If you're doing your coding serving customers, then surely you see that every single customer is going to have differing opinions on what they see as a problem?  You really think they can deal with bugs that way?  If the game was designed in that way, it would be a Frankenstein's Monster of nonsense features.  The prioritisation will take into account what the people want, but it's ultimately SI's decision.  Hell, the "customers" I deal with will be a tiny number compared to SI's, and even that small group isn't going to have things exactly how they want.  Going out to please everyone isn't a sensible strategy.

Luckily, people have the power to fight against that.  You don't like the direction the product is going in?  Easy to not buy.  If everyone who is unhappy is still buying the game, then how are SI to know their direction is "wrong"?

To be honest, I meant that as an alternative and by that description I gave it was mostly around getting a community vote on pressing issues than taking each customer into consideration.

And it isn't about going the way the customers want always. It's about having coincidences with what customers want fixed: occasionally prioritizing the fixes they need without compromise. SI does do this, but as I mentioned in a post earlier they tend to sacrifice it when it comes to the patch cycle. Which is a good and a bad thing. The good thing is they can move on to work on the next version. The bad thing is, if the issues they left behind are obvious frustrations it's going to slowly erode the community of belief in their fixes beyond the usual patch.

And the logic of "Don't buy it if you don't like it" doesn't work at all when you've got people who want to play FM and there's no alternative even half as close. The people are passionate about trying to get SI to notice the issues and there's nothing wrong with that. The mods take care of stuff which is abusive or not civil so it's well taken care of.

[MrPompey]

1 hour ago, davehanson said:

That's fine, of course everyone will have their own opinion on the ME as they should. What one person finds as unacceptable and 'unplayable' is not the same for everyone. I personally find FM20 as unplayable - in the fact it is, to me, a crossing and pressing simulator. I see very few through balls, very little central play, very few defence splitting passes with the striker beating the last line of defence. These are just some things which make the game 'unplayable' to me. I don't want to play the game the way that the game is forcing you to play, so therefore I choose not to. 

You may think that it is not the view of the majority of gamers, you may be right, who knows? The feedback on here though, and in the bugs forum, certainly highlights potential issues with the game though that hopefully SI have taken on board. 

FM21 Early beta it is then

[davehanson]

12 minutes ago, MrPompey said:

FM21 Early beta it is then

Lol. Nope, for the first time ever - I am unfortunately old enough to have played every single version of CM/FM, I will wait and try the Demo (if there is one) and see what the feedback on here is like. Reviews are pointless as most reviewers play the game for a couple of hours at most. 

To be honest I have no doubt I will get it at some point, but I will wait for the inevitable sale (or to come free on Epic) if the feedback isn't great.

[hendredenny]

Bit of a dumb question, but when I look to order advance copy of 2021 there are two available, one is marked EU and the other has no marking. Which should I choose?

[MrPompey]

2 minutes ago, davehanson said:

Lol. Nope, for the first time ever - I am unfortunately old enough to have played every single version of CM/FM, I will wait and try the Demo (if there is one) and see what the feedback on here is like. Reviews are pointless as most reviewers play the game for a couple of hours at most. 

To be honest I have no doubt I will get it at some point, but I will wait for the inevitable sale (or to come free on Epic) if the feedback isn't great.

haha I am also old enough, I started with the first one on the Amiga and had each of them since including at the time the spin-off Italian league!

[Sluglips]

On 28/09/2020 at 14:42, Mr U Rosler said:

I'm actually hoping for less realism this year, I don't want to be reminded of Covid doing the thing I do to escape from the realilty of Covid.

 

Couldn't agree more with this. Who wants to be worrying about your job, health and loved ones IRL and then turn on football manager whilst in lockdown to escape it to find your star striker is isolating due to Covid19?

I appreciate SI pride themselves on trying to reflect the real world in their games but lets hope they leave Corona virus out of it. After all gaming is ment to be a fun form of escapism. Just my opinion.

[Dagenham_Dave]

17 hours ago, davehanson said:

 and see what the feedback on here is like.

Bad strategy. Make your own mind up. In fact, here's a challenge. Play the demo and stay away from here for a couple of weeks. Log back on and post your thoughts on the game before you've seen anyone elses. 

[ChelseaFan]

I'm really hoping they've built on the match engine this year, rather than tear it down and rework it again.

Groundhog day ffs. 

[ChelseaFan]

8 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Bad strategy. Make your own mind up. In fact, here's a challenge. Play the demo and stay away from here for a couple of weeks. Log back on and post your thoughts on the game before you've seen anyone elses. 

Yep, sound advice

It's amazing how seeing someone else's exaggerated opinion, muddies your own lenses. 

 

[Scotty Walds]

18 hours ago, hendredenny said:

Bit of a dumb question, but when I look to order advance copy of 2021 there are two available, one is marked EU and the other has no marking. Which should I choose?

Depends where you live, and what site in question you're ordering from...

[davehanson]

4 hours ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Bad strategy. Make your own mind up. In fact, here's a challenge. Play the demo and stay away from here for a couple of weeks. Log back on and post your thoughts on the game before you've seen anyone elses. 

I disagree that it is a bad strategy. There will always be two sides, those that like the game and those that do not (or those that have issues). But if you can look past peoples emotions, and being honest I think this series of games brings out peoples emotions more than any other, you can get a good idea of what the game is like from the feedback thread.

I will judge the game mainly by playing the demo (hopefully there is one), but feedback on these forums is useful too.