FM20 - I need help with 4-1-4-1 formation!

[PownzHD]

I'm around 25 games into my save with Manchester United save and I am finding it hard to break down opposition as well as keep a high percentage of possession. I have tried playing short and sharp football and short and fast football and neither of these approaches have worked. I have tried tinkering with with the DL/LOE and neither of these options have seemed to help either.

 

These are the roles and duties that I tend to play as well as the players who play in them;

DLF(s)

                                                                                                                       IF(s)                                                                                                          W(a)

AP(s)                       MEZ (a)

DM(d)

                                                                                                                      WB(a)                              CD(d)                       BPD(d)                            IWB(s)

SK(s)

 

Players in positions - 

DLF - Haaland/Greenwood

IF - Rashford/Martial

W - Sancho/James

AP - Pogba/Van de Beek

MEZ - Fernandes/Camavinga

DM - Florentino Luis/Valverde

WB - Alphonso Davies/ Reguillon/Williams

CD - Lindelof/Smalling

BPD - Upamecano/Maguire

IWB - Wan Bissaka/Aarons

SK - De Gea/Henderson

 

I use this formation with the following instructions;

Positive - 

In possession - Play out of defence, short passing, higher tempo, be more expressive

In transition - Counter-press, Counter, distribute to centre backs

Out of possession - Much higher DL and LOE, offside trap, more urgent pressing

 

Any help with sorting this out will be greatly appreciated!

[GianniM]

The Counter TI makes no sense to me if you're playing a high press possession style. 

Much higher DL and LOE is perhaps a bit too aggressive.

Pressing and higher LOE works best with a top-heavy formation which yours isn't. 

[PownzHD]

7 minutes ago, GianniM said:

The Counter TI makes no sense to me if you're playing a high press possession style. 

Much higher DL and LOE is perhaps a bit too aggressive.

Pressing and higher LOE works best with a top-heavy formation which yours isn't. 

What do you suggest I change then? You'll have to walk me through it. 

[Experienced Defender]

6 hours ago, PownzHD said:

DLF(s)

                                                                                                                       IF(s)                                                                                                          W(a)

AP(s)                       MEZ (a)

DM(d)

                                                                                                                      WB(a)                              CD(d)                       BPD(d)                            IWB(s)

SK(s)

How about this:

PFat

IFsu                                     Wat

MEZat    APsu

HB

WBsu    CDde   BPDde   (I)WBsu

SKsu

- standard passing instead of shorter & standard tempo instead of higher (you may also experiment with Run at defence, as it seems you have the right type of players for that)

- no distribute to CBs & only occasionally counter (not all the time)

- higher D-line instead of much higher, standard LOE instead of much higher and split block instead of more urgent pressing

Btw, I would rather play Lindeloff as the BPD than Maguire (because Maguire's traits will make him behave like BPD anyway).

[PownzHD]

26 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

How about this:

PFat

IFsu                                     Wat

MEZat    APsu

HB

WBsu    CDde   BPDde   (I)WBsu

SKsu

- standard passing instead of shorter & standard tempo instead of higher (you may also experiment with Run at defence, as it seems you have the right type of players for that)

- no distribute to CBs & only occasionally counter (not all the time)

- higher D-line instead of much higher, standard LOE instead of much higher and split block instead of more urgent pressing

Btw, I would rather play Lindeloff as the BPD than Maguire (because Maguire's traits will make him behave like BPD anyway).

When you say split block, what do you mean by this? I'm keen to learn!

[summatsupeer]

6 hours ago, PownzHD said:

I'm around 25 games into my save with Manchester United save and I am finding it hard to break down opposition as well as keep a high percentage of possession. I have tried playing short and sharp football and short and fast football and neither of these approaches have worked. I have tried tinkering with with the DL/LOE and neither of these options have seemed to help either.

How are you performing generally?  If your doing well i'd keep the changes minimal or create a plan B tactic for these situations so don't ruin what you have.  If things aren't going well then something a bit more drastic could be needed.

6 hours ago, PownzHD said:

These are the roles and duties that I tend to play as well as the players who play in them;

DLF(s)

IF(s)                                          W(a)

AP(s)        MEZ (a)

DM(d)

WB(a)     CD(d)     BPD(d)      IWB(s)

SK(s)

Positive - 

In possession - Play out of defence, short passing, higher tempo, be more expressive

In transition - Counter-press, Counter, distribute to centre backs

Out of possession - Much higher DL and LOE, offside trap, more urgent pressing

Quick tip for layout, use center alignment and put spaces between the players 

 

The main issue I have is your roles + duties look to be more about attacking quickly but then your instructions try to add patience.  For example the W-At, wants to get the ball early in space against an isolated FB to run at, assuming with Shorter Passing he gets the ball early enough, who's then keeping up with him?  If you want a possession style does a winger even fit that style? Do you end up in the final third with opponent packing there box and the winger trying to take risks and somehow find a teammate?  Same thing for the WB-At, whom is likely in space but once he gets to the byline to cross the box is likely packed so needs a great ball or the attacker to beat multiple defenders (Haaland has a chance to do this).

If you want to keep trying the possession style i'd remove Counter and reconsider how the players take risks. The WB-At, MEZ-At and W-At being the main ones though might need to change others to change the patterns.

Your players are better physically than mentally hence i'd favor a less possession heavy system, especially with both Pogba + Bruno liking to Shoot From Distance which could lose the ball before a good opportunity has been created.  In this case i'd look at the ST staying high, removing Shorter Passing, Higher Tempo and More Expressive, plus toning down Out of Possession a bit and/or removing the Counter Press so opponents come out of defence a bit more to give the forwards space.

 

[PownzHD]

11 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

How are you performing generally?  If your doing well i'd keep the changes minimal or create a plan B tactic for these situations so don't ruin what you have.  If things aren't going well then something a bit more drastic could be needed.

 

2nd in the league atm, the problem I'm having is not being able to break down teams. Won the FA cup, Carabao Cup and in the final of the Europa. Silly mistakes cost goals and the football isn't quite where I want it atm. 

 

11 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

The main issue I have is your roles + duties look to be more about attacking quickly but then your instructions try to add patience.  For example the W-At, wants to get the ball early in space against an isolated FB to run at, assuming with Shorter Passing he gets the ball early enough, who's then keeping up with him?  If you want a possession style does a winger even fit that style? Do you end up in the final third with opponent packing there box and the winger trying to take risks and somehow find a teammate?  Same thing for the WB-At, whom is likely in space but once he gets to the byline to cross the box is likely packed so needs a great ball or the attacker to beat multiple defenders (Haaland has a chance to do this).

If you want to keep trying the possession style i'd remove Counter and reconsider how the players take risks. The WB-At, MEZ-At and W-At being the main ones though might need to change others to change the patterns.

Your players are better physically than mentally hence i'd favor a less possession heavy system, especially with both Pogba + Bruno liking to Shoot From Distance which could lose the ball before a good opportunity has been created.  In this case i'd look at the ST staying high, removing Shorter Passing, Higher Tempo and More Expressive, plus toning down Out of Possession a bit and/or removing the Counter Press so opponents come out of defence a bit more to give the forwards space.

 

So dial down the attacking aspects? In theory, should I be looking to fill the AM hole? If I was to play with a higher ST, most probably a AF - wouldn't that leave a gap for opposition DM's to have a field day? 

[PownzHD]

14 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

For example the W-At, wants to get the ball early in space against an isolated FB to run at, assuming with Shorter Passing he gets the ball early enough, who's then keeping up with him?  If you want a possession style does a winger even fit that style? Do you end up in the final third with opponent packing there box and the winger trying to take risks and somehow find a teammate?

To answer your question here sorry. Yes, when Sancho arrives at the byline the box is overcrowded and more often than not the ball will be thwarted behind for a corner. Ideally, I would like for Sancho to have space in behind to run into with the possibility to cut the ball back to Haaland without any pressure (This is a very rare occasion). 

[summatsupeer]

52 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

2nd in the league atm, the problem I'm having is not being able to break down teams. Won the FA cup, Carabao Cup and in the final of the Europa. Silly mistakes cost goals and the football isn't quite where I want it atm. 

Cool, so room for improvement but not far off.

Quote

So dial down the attacking aspects?

If you want to go down the possession route yes, but I don't think that will get the best out of those players due to traits+attributes as I mentioned.

Quote

In theory, should I be looking to fill the AM hole? If I was to play with a higher ST, most probably a AF - wouldn't that leave a gap for opposition DM's to have a field day? 

You always want to have someone using the AM area, the question is who and when really.  If the ST isn't, then i'd look at what the CM pair are doing.  The AP description makes it sound like he will do this but I find he ends up deeper/wider most of the time trying to collect the ball whilst a CM-Su is often more central/higher since he's not drawn to the ball.  Do you really want one of those players to see more of the ball and to be trying to collect it?

49 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

To answer your question here sorry. Yes, when Sancho arrives at the byline the box is overcrowded and more often than not the ball will be thwarted behind for a corner. Ideally, I would like for Sancho to have space in behind to run into with the possibility to cut the ball back to Haaland without any pressure (This is a very rare occasion). 

This says to me you want to dial down the possession aspects and the pressing.  If you press too hard and win the ball back in there third whilst they have there players still back deep, there's no space behind them.   4141 DM Wide can be tricky to get the pressing side right since you have that DM deep covering so lack players higher up, hence they often have "safe" passes around that DM area and don't want to take risky forward passes with the DM there covering.   This could be removing Counter Press, maybe LOE and/or D-Line a notch. Once you've got the ball back i'd prefer to allow the players to mix there passing distance to attack quickly before the opponents drop deep again.

I also don't like the MEZ inside of the W-At, i'd prefer the winger to just be given space rather than having a runner inside of him.  Instead, I would look at overloading the left flank and and against these very defensive teams, maybe even have the DM on support so he's higher to help the press in CM.  If they actually counter attack you then obviously the holding deep makes more sense.

Edited September 23, 2020 by summatsupeer

[CaptCanuck]

1 hour ago, PownzHD said:

When you say split block, what do you mean by this? I'm keen to learn!

Instead of having:

Much Higher LOE | Mucher Higher D Line | More urgent pressing

You bring the LOE and D line down a notch or two (you'll have to have a play and see just how much you bring them down) and remove the TI more urgent pressing and set it to standard. You then set PIs to press more urgently for specific players, say your front 3 + either the mez or the ap. You can't really recreate what good pressing teams (but don't gegenpress) do in FM, but this can go someway to giving that style.

Super basic visual - not to scale :-)

Edited September 23, 2020 by CaptCanuck

[PownzHD]

36 minutes ago, CaptCanuck said:

Instead of having:

Much Higher LOE | Mucher Higher D Line | More urgent pressing

You bring the LOE and D line down a notch or two (you'll have to have a play and see just how much you bring them down) and remove the TI more urgent pressing and set it to standard. You then set PIs to press more urgently for specific players, say your front 3 + either the mez or the ap. You can't really recreate what good pressing teams (but don't gegenpress) do in FM, but this can go someway to giving that style.

Super basic visual - not to scale :-)

I understand now, thank you. Would you suggest the MEZ on pressing over the AP? Fernandes in this instance would be the MEZ and Pogba the AP. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, PownzHD said:

When you say split block, what do you mean by this? I'm keen to learn!

Instead of increasing the pressing urgency for the entire team, you tell only your 3-5 most advanced players to close down more via their player instructions. That's the split block. 

[PownzHD]

40 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

You always want to have someone using the AM area, the question is who and when really.  If the ST isn't, then i'd look at what the CM pair are doing.  The AP description makes it sound like he will do this but I find he ends up deeper/wider most of the time trying to collect the ball whilst a CM-Su is often more central/higher since he's not drawn to the ball.  Do you really want one of those players to see more of the ball and to be trying to collect it?

This says to me you want to dial down the possession aspects and the pressing.  If you press too hard and win the ball back in there third whilst they have there players still back deep, there's no space behind them.   4141 DM Wide can be tricky to get the pressing side right since you have that DM deep covering so lack players higher up, hence they often have "safe" passes around that DM area and don't want to take risky forward passes with the DM there covering.   This could be removing Counter Press, maybe LOE and/or D-Line a notch. Once you've got the ball back i'd prefer to allow the players to mix there passing distance to attack quickly before the opponents drop deep again.

I also don't like the MEZ inside of the W-At, i'd prefer the winger to just be given space rather than having a runner inside of him.  Instead, I would look at overloading the left flank and and against these very defensive teams, maybe even have the DM on support so he's higher to help the press in CM.  If they actually counter attack you then obviously the holding deep makes more sense.

I have now switched the MEZ to the left hand side with an AP and a HB holding. I have changed both the passing directness and Tempo to standard. And I have implemented a split block for pressing, do you think I should have the counter pressing option on too or go without that? 
 

I beat Brighton 5-0 with 32% possession with this tactic.

[PownzHD]

1 minute ago, Experienced Defender said:

Instead of increasing the pressing urgency for the entire team, you tell only your 3-5 most advanced players to close down more via their player instructions. That's the split block. 

Thank you, I implemented the changes that you suggested and although against some oppositions (such as 5 backs - Brighton) I have very low possession, I tend to score a lot more goals. Would you suggest using the counter-press TI? 
 

Could you please go over the whole TI and PI instructions just so that I know I have them correct? 
 

I currently have;

In possession - Run at defence

In transition - Counter-press

Out of possession - higher defensive line and offside trap.

You’ve been a star, thank you so much for your help. 

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, PownzHD said:

Thank you, I implemented the changes that you suggested and although against some oppositions (such as 5 backs - Brighton) I have very low possession, I tend to score a lot more goals

Who cares about possession if you are winning - and with such a great scoreline at that  

 

3 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

Would you suggest using the counter-press TI?

Occasionally and carefully. And probably not against (other) top teams. 

 

4 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

Could you please go over the whole TI and PI instructions just so that I know I have them correct? 
 

I currently have;

In possession - Run at defence

In transition - Counter-press

Out of possession - higher defensive line and offside trap

Yeah, that's basically what I suggested  (plus the split block, optimally involving 4 players - the front 3 + mezzala). 

 

5 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

You’ve been a star, thank you so much for your help

I am glad it has worked for you so far, but that's by no means a plug'n'play tactic. Rather, it was just an idea based on my knowledge of the current Utd squad and what style of football should suit them optimally. Therefore, you need to watch your matches carefully and be prepared to make small gradual tweaks if or when needed. Hopefully, you won't need to tweak a lot  

[CaptCanuck]

58 minutes ago, PownzHD said:

I understand now, thank you. Would you suggest the MEZ on pressing over the AP? Fernandes in this instance would be the MEZ and Pogba the AP. 

Based on the Mez role via the AP; yes, as you'd likely want your AP to be less impacted by the extra defensive work than the Mez. Also Bruno's attributes (for an attacking minded player) look pretty decent for the task of pressing.

[summatsupeer]

19 hours ago, PownzHD said:

I have now switched the MEZ to the left hand side with an AP and a HB holding. I have changed both the passing directness and Tempo to standard. And I have implemented a split block for pressing, do you think I should have the counter pressing option on too or go without that? 
 

I beat Brighton 5-0 with 32% possession with this tactic.

With those players in that system, i'd not use Counter Press.  You might force some mistakes that lead to a good chance but I think you'd lose space for your normal attacks and tire your forwards.   Rashford is the best out of possession forward, but generally they don't have great defensive attributes or stamina.

Can't argue with the score.  I wouldn't go clicking stuff to try and increase the possession, you need to look for specific problems that you can fix but consider the potential negatives from the change.