ThomasHK1979 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 My Regista Tonali plays with season average above 7.80. But how about Mezzalas. Have anybody managed to get a mezzala to play with a high season average in a 433/4123/4141 formation ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiegel Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 Had a Mezzala (Christian Eriksen) win back-to-back Ballon D'ors in a 4-3-3 so it's definitely possible? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 Why focus on the rating above what he actually offers the team? Mezzala's are great but they have to fit and have a purpose in the side to bring the best out of them. I've used a Mez for 13 seasons on my Crewe save since League Two. But my system is set up to utilise his running from deep. He scores a lot and creates a lot. And currently this season he's again the heartbeat and driving force of our attacks. He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 I don't often use the Mezzala (I favour the MC-attack) but the forum it's full of topics and posts - even stories and challenges - of people using the Mezzala to a great effect. You got so much success stories to dwelve into if you want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyline72 Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 I thought you just created a thread not so long ago? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Scouser Tommy Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Cleon said: I love a mezzala CM su combination. I think CM su is my favourite role actually. I'm using them in my current save with QPR. I think they compliment each other really nicely and I never have any issue with my mezzala contributing and he has 4 goals and 2 assists in 8 games this season Edited September 20, 2020 by Old Scouser Tommy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JEinchy Posted September 20, 2020 Share Posted September 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Cleon said: Why focus on the rating above what he actually offers the team? Mezzala's are great but they have to fit and have a purpose in the side to bring the best out of them. I've used a Mez for 13 seasons on my Crewe save since League Two. But my system is set up to utilise his running from deep. He scores a lot and creates a lot. And currently this season he's again the heartbeat and driving force of our attacks. He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 Can I ask what the thinking behind using "waste time sometimes" is? Is it just to spoil the game, or does it slow things down to allow more support in possession? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted September 21, 2020 Share Posted September 21, 2020 8 hours ago, JEinchy said: Can I ask what the thinking behind using "waste time sometimes" is? Is it just to spoil the game, or does it slow things down to allow more support in possession? I don't want to play a high/fast paced speed all the time. Sometimes I just want to run time down in the corners, take more touches than usual and just knock the ball around. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasHK1979 Posted September 21, 2020 Author Share Posted September 21, 2020 14 hours ago, Spiegel said: Had a Mezzala (Christian Eriksen) win back-to-back Ballon D'ors in a 4-3-3 so it's definitely possible? Wow. Can you post a screen or maybe explain the roles of the other players around your mezzala. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasHK1979 Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 On 20/09/2020 at 19:25, Spiegel said: Had a Mezzala (Christian Eriksen) win back-to-back Ballon D'ors in a 4-3-3 so it's definitely possible? I simply can’t make my Mezzala work. Paqueta or Hakan have incredible stats for this role but they keep getting 6.30-6.40 ratings. Sooo bad. Can some please post a 433 tactic with Mezzala that makes the Mezzala good?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 56 minutos atrás, ThomasHK1979 disse: I simply can’t make my Mezzala work. Paqueta or Hakan have incredible stats for this role but they keep getting 6.30-6.40 ratings. Sooo bad. Can some please post a 433 tactic with Mezzala that makes the Mezzala good?? Can your post your current setup so we can jump in to help? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasHK1979 Posted September 28, 2020 Author Share Posted September 28, 2020 48 minutes ago, davidbarros2 said: Can your post your current setup so we can jump in to help? Thoughts: 1) My two CM (Hakan and Kessie) dosnt perform that good. 2) I cant seem to find the most suitable role for Leao I know most of you would change the regista role to DM or DLP, but Tonali play ot of this world in this role, winning the Ballon D´Or. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotSoSpecialOne Posted September 28, 2020 Share Posted September 28, 2020 I would expect that a regista would be the best performer in a midfield trio and would be concerned if he wasn't, so it's okay if his compatriots aren't performing as well IMO. I'm inclined to agree with others re: your team instructions not being suited to a regista but he's performing so leaving TIs alone.. I'd change the BBM to a CM(D) or CM(S). Then one of (or possibly both) changing the IF(S) to a winger or the forward to an attacking role that pushes the defense. Right now I imagine those two players are drifting into space you want the Mezzala to have in order to thrive in. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 22 horas atrás, ThomasHK1979 disse: Thoughts: 1) My two CM (Hakan and Kessie) dosnt perform that good. 2) I cant seem to find the most suitable role for Leao I know most of you would change the regista role to DM or DLP, but Tonali play ot of this world in this role, winning the Ballon D´Or. I'm by no means an expert, but I would make some slight tweaks to your system (not involving Tonalli). I would change Kluivert to a winger on support and pellegrini to a full back on attack. I would change Conti to a full-back on support and Kessie (maybe) to a simple CM on support. Leao up top I would change to a PF on attack but I can see he's performing great for you, so, leave it be. I would also remove the higher tempo and wide instructions, as well as the offside trap. Just my 2 cents... but regarding to your primary question - how a mezzala can perform - you gonna give him space and support. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryandormer Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 I use something very similar on that flank, but the left back is a FB(s): The theory behind the FB rather than WB is that he is slightly more conservative, which 1) gives slightly more defensive protection, given that the mezzala is about the most attacking CM role you can pick, and 2) it means that the mezzala will have more opportunities to overlap the IFs out wide. I found that both the IF and the WB would get high up the pitch (the WB wide, and IF narrower), and so there was less room for the mezzala to be effective. So, the only change I would make would be to play Pellegrini as a FB(s) rather than a WB(s). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
yonko Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 On 20/09/2020 at 11:12, Cleon said: The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 And just like that the old master is back with a bang. The secret is in the simplicity with a purpose. Do you have any new platform where you share your FM ideas? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overmars Posted September 29, 2020 Share Posted September 29, 2020 A lot of player performance is determined by elements outside of player positions and roles. Player form and morale matters a lot, so a player in good form tends to continue playing well regardless of tactical decisions. Similarly, someone in bad form can struggle regardless of being placed in the ideal tactic for him. Set piece duty also impacts form and ratings. Someone scheduled for set piece delivery duty will invariably be a strong performer in FM20 due to how ratings are impacted by assists and how often set piece goals are scored. In other words, be careful analyzing tactics based on a small set of matches and player ratings from those matches. Sometimes the flaw is not in the tactic itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 On 20/09/2020 at 19:12, Cleon said: He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 Hi Cleon Please can you explain the thinking behind the attacking full back and mezzala on the same side? Would this not leave you exposed defensively on the right hand side especially on a positive mentality? Many thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 52 minutes ago, J.T said: Hi Cleon Please can you explain the thinking behind the attacking full back and mezzala on the same side? Would this not leave you exposed defensively on the right hand side especially on a positive mentality? Many thanks! I wasn't really exposed as its an aggressive tactic focused on defending from the front and pinning the opposition into their own half. The Mez and attacking fullback on the same side was so I could overwhelm the opposition on that side and have them worry about me and my attacks. Rather than me worrying about them and what might/might not happen. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T Posted January 20, 2021 Share Posted January 20, 2021 Thanks, much appreciated. I saw on twitter you are writing something for FM21 - look forward to reading that when it's ready 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr9210 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 On 21/09/2020 at 03:12, Cleon said: Why focus on the rating above what he actually offers the team? Mezzala's are great but they have to fit and have a purpose in the side to bring the best out of them. I've used a Mez for 13 seasons on my Crewe save since League Two. But my system is set up to utilise his running from deep. He scores a lot and creates a lot. And currently this season he's again the heartbeat and driving force of our attacks. He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 Can I know player's prefer foot?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 5 hours ago, rr9210 said: Can I know player's prefer foot?? Tells you in the screenshot, under his number etc 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rr9210 Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 8 minutes ago, Cleon said: Tells you in the screenshot, under his number etc I want to know the feet of other players in best 11. gavazaj,van der veen, sroli , stubbs, roig etc.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 2, 2021 Share Posted February 2, 2021 31 minutes ago, rr9210 said: I want to know the feet of other players in best 11. gavazaj,van der veen, sroli , stubbs, roig etc.. Not on the save. But its not important in the slightest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finners Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 On 20/09/2020 at 19:12, Cleon said: Why focus on the rating above what he actually offers the team? Mezzala's are great but they have to fit and have a purpose in the side to bring the best out of them. I've used a Mez for 13 seasons on my Crewe save since League Two. But my system is set up to utilise his running from deep. He scores a lot and creates a lot. And currently this season he's again the heartbeat and driving force of our attacks. He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 What PIs are you using for the vanilla CM and DM / how close to the defaults are you leaving them? I always feel a bit hesitant when I use the more basic player roles (CM, DM, AMC, FB, etc) because you've got such a clean slate the temptation there is often to over-complicate things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 22 minutes ago, Finners said: What PIs are you using for the vanilla CM and DM / how close to the defaults are you leaving them? I always feel a bit hesitant when I use the more basic player roles (CM, DM, AMC, FB, etc) because you've got such a clean slate the temptation there is often to over-complicate things. I haven't touched anything. The roles aren't basic either, they all do a specific job just like all the other roles. You should only be changing stuff if the role and none of the others don't give you the type of thing you demand from the player. If people are adding instructions without any real though process behind it, then I agree they are complicating things for the sake of it. Every decision should have a reason behind it imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finners Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, Cleon said: The roles aren't basic either, they all do a specific job just like all the other roles. I didn't mean basic as a pejorative, what I meant was that they're less defined by hard-coded values. IE, you have more choice in how to customise how you want a CM (S) to play compared to, say, a roaming playmaker. When you've got more freedom of choice it's often easy to fall in to the trap of ticking boxes for the sakes of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbuullddoogg Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 16 hours ago, Cleon said: I haven't touched anything. The roles aren't basic either, they all do a specific job just like all the other roles. You should only be changing stuff if the role and none of the others don't give you the type of thing you demand from the player. If people are adding instructions without any real though process behind it, then I agree they are complicating things for the sake of it. Every decision should have a reason behind it imo. Thank you for your thoughts on 4-3-3. I am a veteran of this game and play it all the time but still struggle with fully understanding roles and how to make my players do what I want them to do. Posting your logical 4-3-3 gives a lot of us some insights we otherwise wouldn’t have. I still don’t really get why you don’t just get attacked like crazy down the side you are overloading on when you lose the ball However the more I think of that the more I realize that is likely just a lack of knowledge on my part re overloads vs an FM issue and I could probably understand more by just reading up on the subject. I do have one question though! I think one of the most important and least talked about things in FM is starting strategy. With the way your 4-3-3 system is set up, how do you normally start games? Balanced? Positive? Or does it depend completely on level of opposition, venue and scout report of opposition? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Cleon Posted February 4, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 hours ago, bbuullddoogg said: Thank you for your thoughts on 4-3-3. I am a veteran of this game and play it all the time but still struggle with fully understanding roles and how to make my players do what I want them to do. Posting your logical 4-3-3 gives a lot of us some insights we otherwise wouldn’t have. I still don’t really get why you don’t just get attacked like crazy down the side you are overloading on when you lose the ball However the more I think of that the more I realize that is likely just a lack of knowledge on my part re overloads vs an FM issue and I could probably understand more by just reading up on the subject. I do have one question though! I think one of the most important and least talked about things in FM is starting strategy. With the way your 4-3-3 system is set up, how do you normally start games? Balanced? Positive? Or does it depend completely on level of opposition, venue and scout report of opposition? You're thinking about my tactic all wrong. I am not trying to make it so I am not attacked by the AI. No matter what you do, the AI will always attack you in some shape or form so I tend to not worry about them. It doesn't matter if they do attack me down the side I overload, I welcome that. If they attack me this leaves space for me to exploit when we get the ball back. It's all about risk vs reward. Even though you think my overload side is vulnerable, the players who do the overloads still track back and defend. I also have a DM and defenders who can deal with the threat. Just because you are aggressive on a particular side or cause overloads doesn't mean you are more vulnerable than usual. The entire set up is important to just how badly exposed you might be. It's also worth noting that because I do overload a particular side, the AI is also vulnerable and has to do a lot of defending. So a lot of the time, they are too deep to take advantage of the space I might give up due to my aggression. The best for of defence is attack after all..... As for the second part of your question, I tend to start every single match the same way. I wrote this a while back; A few months back I was reading an article titled ‘No Plan B’ and it was a great read, written by peter Prickett who I interviewed on this blog recently. In the No Plan B article, Peter raises some good questions and gives examples of managers who are deemed to be classed as having no plan b and shows how they actually do have them. It’s just that we don’t always notice the changes as sometimes they are subtle little changes and other times, it might be a total change of shape which then is more noticeable. To give you a better idea of what I’m talking about, here is a link to his article that I’m talking about; http://www.pger.net/football/2017/06/03/no-plan-b/ Then a couple of weeks after reading the above article, I was reading something else, an interview with Jürgen Klopp (it can be found here http://www.eurosport.co.uk/football/premier-league/2017-2018/jurgen-klopp-the-talk-of-a-plan-b-shows-a-lack-of-understanding_sto6267115/story.shtml ) and he was talking about plan b too. This is had to say on the matter; Quote “We had two major issues in January obviously: not enough confidence as we should have had in ourselves, and too many injuries plus Sadio [Mane] being away at the Africa Cup of Nations while the games didn’t seem to stop,” Klopp said. “Then in February, we suffered from the intensity of the month before, and we were back in March. We won games again, but then people were saying, ‘it’s not the same football, they are struggling,’ and this again gave the players doubt. “They listen to these voices, the whole club listens to these voices that go ‘oh, it’s again like this, they don’t have Plan B for deep-defending sides, they can only play one way.' “We smashed teams at the start of last season by altering our style in different ways to play to our strengths and minimise the opposition’s like against West Brom at Anfield. We limited their set-piece situations, which we know they are really dangerous from. “The talk of Plan B shows a lack of understanding. In the moment when you are not feeling confident, you cannot change too many things - that’s insecurity. “It’s not about showing what you can do - like ‘hey, here is Plan D, F, Q!’ My job is not to prove that I can do 1000 different techniques or no-looking coaching or whatever, it is to do what is best for the players I have, with our skills, in the situation we are in. Both of the things above are tied into something i’ve wanted to do for quite some time now. I’ve wanted to explain my approach to tactics on the Football Manager Series and focus on my Plan A and Plan B and explain how they can be the same thing but I just never had the time until now. Now if you’re active on the SI forums or on the FM social media side of things you’ll often see people sharing their own plan b’s and the things they tend to do to nullify the opponent's specific threats or to change the course of a game. The majority that I see that do this always tend to have a different shape as a plan b option and tend to change the shape based on expectations for the upcoming match, regardless of whether it's the correct decision or not. It involves a lot of guesswork. I’m not saying these people aren’t right in playing this way I’m purely talking about my own preferences and play style here. That’s why for me, this blind faith approach doesn’t work. I like to make any changes based on what I see happening in the game and react accordingly. Now if I made any decisions based on pre match odds, expectations or current form then how would I know if it's the correct decision for what is happening in the game and how it's unfolding. I possibly can’t, that’s why I do changes as I watch the game unfold. On top of this I like to create a specific brand of football and while this could work within many different tactical shapes, I don’t see the point of making the game even more complicated than it really has to be. That’s why I always play the same shape, I don’t have a need to have different formations. This doesn’t mean I don’t adapt on a game by game basis because often I do, other times not so much because I feel it doesn’t need it. However some of the changes I make, many of you wouldn’t class them as being a plan b because the changes are minimalistic and very subtle at times. This actually brings it back to real life football for a second, just because you don’t notice something drastic doesn’t mean that the manager isn’t adapting constantly. It might just be a case of not seeing what he actually did. Personally speaking, what I do I wouldn’t class as a plan b even though it is. Instead I call it a match plan or game plan. It equates to the same thing though. So what is a game/match plan?! Game Strategies Before I start with my own plan b’s let's have a look at some of the game plans that other people might or could use. Before a game A second formation is something people often use when they feel a team will play a certain way based on the pre-match odds, scouts reports and the analyst's reports. Others might just take a stab in the dark and decide they need to change shape based on how they believe the team will play irrespective of what the reports or odds are. The use of team instructions is also another popular one, people might add more of them or remove some if they already use various ones. One of the reasons for adding or removing them is to either counter or nullify a possible threat. The use of player instructions also ties in with the above and people might want specific players to do something slightly different from normal for the reasons highlighted above. Changing player roles seems to be one that I see people talk about frequently. They’ll change the role to get the player to change the way the team usually plays. Again it comes back to trying to take advantage of a possible opposition weakness or to cover the weakness of the users tactics. Match plans are not something I see people talk about but they can be used to create a specific set of rules for certain points or circumstances in a game. You can use them for certain scenarios you anticipate might happen. Using different players is one I see from the odd time. Someone might use a slightly more defensive/attacking player for a particular game because of a certain type of danger or to take advantage of a weakness in the opposition's line up. Player selection can also be used to target certain individuals in the opposing team. Those are some of the ways people do and can utilise certain tools available, as well as showing a variety of ways to play before a game has even started. Some users even do more than one of the above before games. During a game Some of the changes you can make during a game follow a similar pattern to the above. Changing the shape during a game I class as a drastic change. Nonetheless a lot of users still seem to do this. They change shape to either protect a lead and see out the game or because they are chasing a result. A change of shape can see them be more aggressive or passive. You can use team instructions to change the style of play and to either try and win the game, protect a lead or even to take advantage of a weakness in the opposition. They can also be used to cover up your own weaknesses. If you want something just as effective but less drastic than affecting all your players like team instructions though, you could attempt to use player instructions instead. These allow you to tailor players and select different instructions which are available depending on which role and duty someone has to give you something different that you might currently lack. Swapping player roles is also another good one to use as it allows you to make players more or less aggressive depending which you need. If you want to hang on to that 2-0 lead but your midfield is very aggressive and leaving lots of space to be exploited, then a quick role or even duty change can make all the difference. One of the other things people do is make tactical substitutions and swap out those players who might be underperforming, tired or just because you feel someone else might do a better job. There are other ways to change games too but these seem to be the most common ways that get discussed. None of them are better than the other and they all can be viable options to utilise at some stage. Which though, tends to be based on the users playstyle and which fits best with that. Some of the above are what I class as really extreme though, especially changing shape during a game. I understand why people do it but it’s not something I’d ever contemplate doing but that doesn’t mean those who do, are wrong. It just doesn’t suit my own playstyle. My Own Playstyle and Strategies So how do I play the game? I don’t micromanage half as much as people believe I do. I’m more of a subtle changes kind of game. In reality, my plan A is my plan B, C and everything after. Obviously if I’m creating a tactic then I take a slightly more hands on approach until I believe it’s balanced enough and offers me the style of play I was aiming for. After that point it’s all about keeping it as simple as possible in order to fly through the seasons in the quickest possible time. What this means for me is that, if I make changes it’s purely based on what my own players are or aren’t doing. I totally ignore the opposition and just focus on my own side, some might think this is strange because the AI is a big part of the game and they’d be correct. However you don’t always have to set out to play the perfect game and adapt constantly for the AI. You can make subtle changes to achieve this and you don’t always need to be drastic. Also by focusing on your own side, you can stick to the style or brand of football you are creating without constantly trying to adapt and match the opposition. This allows me to stick to my own game plan. Giving up space to the opposition is fine, in fact, giving up space in general doesn’t have to be a bad thing as long as your side is doing everything you want them to do. This is what I focus on. If my sides do what I want and expect of them, then in 90% of situations I will get a result. Let’s break it down and give a few examples of how I adapt in game for certain situations. Before I game I never change anything. I stick with whatever my base formation is and choose the best starting eleven I can field. This means I don’t look at the match odds, I don’t pay much attention to the scouts or analyst reports and. There is no adding or removing of team instructions, player instructions and I don’t even change player roles. In game changes During a game I don’t tend to tweak much truth. I try my best to stick to the things my team does well, even if I go behind in a game. If I go behind in a game then the context and the manner in which I am currently playing is the most important thing. Even if I go 2-0 down, the context of why is everything. You can be playing extremely well and go behind due to bad luck, or just for the fact the opposition did a great move. It happens and at times no matter how well you are playing, you have to accept you’ll concede goals against the run of play. The key here is to not panic. I wrote about this before, the article can be found here; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Fvtb_IBsrfoiaO3Z44DueRIIaHCnXnHv-IfVspbtDSs/edit?usp=sharing If a game isn’t going well though or I am chasing a result then I do have an hierarchy of sorts that I try to follow; Substitutions. Player instructions. Role change Mentality change Team Instructions. That’s the order I tend to follow. If I get to 3, 4 or 5 on the list then **** has really hit the fan. I’ve not used any of those in any of my saves so far on FM18 though and I’ve played about 16 seasons so far in total across different saves. I tend to stick to the first two mainly as it’s simpler for the style and the way I play the game. Substitutions 90% of the changes I do in games are based around substitutions. For me this is my playstyle and allows me to influence or change games by doing substitutions. The way I squad build and develop players allows me to use this as a tool because I don’t buy/develop players who play the same position and are similar to what I already have. What I like to do is either find or develop players who will play the role differently to what the others who I have in the squad play. I recently wrote something that fall into this category which can be found here to give you an example of what I am talking about; Rather than getting hung up about someone not having role suitability or that the attributes determine a player can’t play a role, I focus on the opposite. Football Manager isn’t restricted just because someone can’t play a role based on the suitability on their profile screen. Any player can play anywhere, you’ll just find his decision making may take a hit and it’s not upto the standard of someone more familiar in the role. However that doesn’t mean he can’t play it and cannot be successful or good at it. If someone has the attributes to play a role he doesn’t have listed in his profile, still play him there. It’s the attributes that make up the skillset of a player so he will be fine. If we take the striker example above, David Brooks is a creative advanced forward. On this save I also have two other types of players who can play as my advanced forward too and each one of them brings a different skill set. The other two players I utilise in that role, one of them offers me a more physical presence and is more akin to a target man above all else. He’s like a battering ram. The other one is your more stereotypical advanced forward. Now if I was chasing a result and needed to change things around and I knew the advanced forward position wasn’t doing what I wanted, I’d make a change. The player I brought on though would depend on what I felt was the right move. If David Brooks was being bullied then obviously I’d bring on the target man type of player so he didn’t get bullied as much and could hold his own. But if I felt I just needed a simpler method and nothing too fancy and flash, in other words nothing too specific then I’d revert to the good old fashioned type of advanced forward instead. That’s just one example and I don’t restrict myself, it could be any player I changed really. It all depends on the context of the game and which players I felt were struggling to do what I expect. This is why I build to bring in and develop different kinds of players, so I can have a lot of variety in the side with players I can bring on in any position and they’ll offer me a different take on that role. Another example might be that of my defensive midfielders. I have the usual type of player for the role but I also have a very creative player who lacks the usual defensive skills for the role. But more than makes up for it with his creativity. I tend to bring him on if I feel my defensive midfield is doing okay but getting caught in possession time and time again and slowing our play down. I might also use him if I feel that the defensive midfielder is struggling for time on the ball. I’d sacrifice the defensive side of things for someone who can distribute the ball better and might be a calmer head under pressure while having the ball at his feet. Now I could simply do a role change but that would usually impact how my tactic functions and would have massive knock on effects elsewhere. So changes like that are usually a last resort and why I change the player instead. It’s all about finding what works and fits in for the way you play the game to simplify things for yourself. If you were watching me play the game and I made a substitution you’d likely just think I was changing a player and don’t realise it would be a tactical tool that I was using. And switching things up to get a different outlook. It would be very subtle but in most cases, would make a huge change to how the role was functioning before. That’s my number one method. For my second way we look at; Player instructions There is nothing fancy or complicated here but rather than impact the entire team and use team instructions, I might focus on an individual from time to time if I see them doing things I don’t like. An example would be if my midfielder was getting pressed heavily and didn’t really have time on the ball but he had short passing. I might decide that him going more direct might help him better and release him from the pressure he is currently under. So depending on the situation or scenario, this would impact what I change. This isn’t something I do frequently though and in my current save is something I’ve only done four times in six seasons. None the less it’s still an option. Role/Duty changes Now we are treading squeaky bum territory and things are starting to go very wrong. Things aren’t that bad yet but they’re well on the way to being disastrous at this point. So if my usual methods highlighted above had not worked then I’d look at changing player roles to give me whatever I was currently lacking but this has drawbacks too. In most cases my tactics are set up to play a specific way and what might seem like a simple role change would mean somewhere else, another role was likely to be changed. An example would be if my roaming playmaker was having a rough time and he usually is the one supplying the ball from midfield to the front players. Not necessarily being a creator as such but more that he was the link and the one bridging the gap from midfield to attack. If I changed his role to lets say, a central midfielder on a support duty then the whole dynamic of what the player offers the team changes. It’s clear that what usually works wasn’t either and a change has to be made so now he’s a CM support. What I then have to look at is how does this impact the forward players? If they struggled to get a ball from the roaming playmaker but was seeing it the odd time, how are they now going to get the ball from the CM support? He’ll not link in the same way, which was one of the reasons I initially changed him from a RPM. But exactly how does the CM fit into the current play and now where does the supply come from, to the front players.I need to identify this and see if it’s going to be a major issue and then begin addressing it. My options would be seeing if any of the other midfielders could possibly supply them the ball and if they can, how does this impact on how we play usually and how do we make it work. Another option may be asking a striker to come deeper for the ball but then again I have to ask who is then scoring the goals? Sure, a deep striker can score goals but now the way we attack has totally changed which will impact how we score. While you can make this work, for me, this is one of the most complicated changes I’d make. It’s probably one of the most drastic things to do that is on my list. But it’s not at the bottom of the list for one very simple reason, sometimes, just a simple duty change can be enough. You can make the player more/less aggressive with a quick duty change. To give you a quick example, if we go back to the striker coming deep. Let’s say we started out that way and I felt the defensive unit of the oppositions were having an easy time because my striker was dropping off, so they didn’t really have any defensive duties to do. I’d maybe give the striker an attack duty if possible and instantly he would be higher up the pitch and suddenly the opposition's defenders would now be occupied. A duty change is a lot more subtle than a full role change and in most cases has less drastic consequences elsewhere because the role is still essentially the same, it’ll just be starting higher up the pitch or lower down depending on the duty. Mentality Changing mentality is relatively simple and you can change the way you are playing in an instant. However you need to remember that it changes it for everyone in the side and will impact your defensive line and tempo as well. The higher the mentality the more risks you’ll take and the lower the mentality the less risks you’ll take. But this is far down my list due to me normally creating a specific style of play and changing mentality would change everything in the side yet again and mean I’ve possibly strayed away from my style. Now I know what you’re thinking, stop being a stubborn ***** and change if it's needed and you’d be correct. However I am trying to keep things simple and change as little as possible. So this doesn’t really fit that due to how it changes every player's behaviour. Team instructions Team instructions are a great tool to use but again this falls in line with the above, I’m not keen on using things that change the entire team's behaviour unless I really have to. This for me is the last option I’d use and is my ‘out of ideas’ approach. Now I understand how the team instructions work and I understand what they actually change under the hood but for me, it’s still a farce using them. I’ve normally got team instructions selected more than likely anyway based on the style I was creating. Adding more or removing them would take me away from that style or add another layer of complexity to things which I can do without. So this is how I approach games and think and view the game. It’s probably a lot less micromanaging during games than you were expecting though right? I guess that stems from the guides I normally do but you have to remember, those are normally targeting those who struggle with certain aspects, want to learn more about how the game works or discussing certain footballing philosophies and concepts. So they go into more details than your usual stuff. What’s your plans for changing games around and getting results? 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrlor Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 @Cleon as always, fantastic stuff. Just to add a personal example to highlight this, in FM18 I played a 4-3-3 at United, IF on the left, Winger on the right. If I played Juan Mata as the winger, he has the comes deep to get the ball trait, left footed and not particulary quick. However he is very creative and able to pick passes or make a decision when to burst into the box. Jesse Lingard on the other hand had good pace, good stamina and off the ball movement and made a great traditional winger. 2 players, same role but very different ways of playing as a "winger". This also tied into how I used my fullback - with Mata I asked him to get further up the pitch and cross from near the byline, overlapping outside of Mata who would normally cut in to the edge of the 18 yard box. With Lingard, I wouldn't want him to get as high up the pitch and offer a deeper alternative so instead of perhaps a Wb on support, I would choose a Fb on support but with the cross from deep PI selected. This means that if Lingard ran into a blind alley and couldnt cross, he could roll the ball back to the full back for a G.Nev style cross from deep. With Lukaku or Ibra up front and Sanchez or Martial cutting in from the other side, there was always someone there to offer a threat. @Christopher S this might be useful to you after the discussions in your other thread. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidbarros2 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) Amazing read as always. Substitutions are always my go to resource. Playing with the attribute side of the game is how I normally prepare though away matches, for instance, switching a good baller box to box mid for someone who is more agressive and physical. I recently had a "David Brooks" moment (I remember such a thread) playing at Santos in Brazil. I played with 2 up top and my best players were wingers and I loaned them out in the first season. When they came back I was not adamant at changing the system but I didn't want to waste the talent of players like Soteldo so I started playing him as my advanced forward. The creativity he instilled at my attack was enormous. It was a great example of how to spice things up during a game and/or how two different players can interpret the same role in such disctinct ways. Another way I tend to use substitutions is closer to real life examples, as in, bringing in a pacey striker for the final moments of a game, taking advantage of lack of speed or tiredness for the opposition. I never go to plan C, D, E ... I am too stubborn for that. I do believe to surprise my opponent I have to surprise my own team (as in doing things we aren't accostumed to), and I rather focus on being better at the things I'm already good and try to force my playstyle into the opponent. Edited February 4, 2021 by davidbarros2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher S Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Garrlor said: @Cleon as always, fantastic stuff. Just to add a personal example to highlight this, in FM18 I played a 4-3-3 at United, IF on the left, Winger on the right. If I played Juan Mata as the winger, he has the comes deep to get the ball trait, left footed and not particulary quick. However he is very creative and able to pick passes or make a decision when to burst into the box. Jesse Lingard on the other hand had good pace, good stamina and off the ball movement and made a great traditional winger. 2 players, same role but very different ways of playing as a "winger". This also tied into how I used my fullback - with Mata I asked him to get further up the pitch and cross from near the byline, overlapping outside of Mata who would normally cut in to the edge of the 18 yard box. With Lingard, I wouldn't want him to get as high up the pitch and offer a deeper alternative so instead of perhaps a Wb on support, I would choose a Fb on support but with the cross from deep PI selected. This means that if Lingard ran into a blind alley and couldnt cross, he could roll the ball back to the full back for a G.Nev style cross from deep. With Lukaku or Ibra up front and Sanchez or Martial cutting in from the other side, there was always someone there to offer a threat. @Christopher S this might be useful to you after the discussions in your other thread. Thanks for the tip, Garrlor. Gonna read through it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harit1mmm1 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 21/09/2020 at 01:12, Cleon said: Why focus on the rating above what he actually offers the team? Mezzala's are great but they have to fit and have a purpose in the side to bring the best out of them. I've used a Mez for 13 seasons on my Crewe save since League Two. But my system is set up to utilise his running from deep. He scores a lot and creates a lot. And currently this season he's again the heartbeat and driving force of our attacks. He doesn't take set pieces apart from the odd penalty if striker is out injured which you can see. The reason he is so involved is because the team as a whole with the system we use suits him and allows him to be a goal threat. The system isn't anything special, just a logical 4-1-2-2-1 Can you show me your CM(sup)'s PI? Why do you use Pass into space with Positive mentality? I think when players "pass into space", their teammate can't take posseision Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harit1mmm1 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 On 20/01/2021 at 23:22, Cleon said: I wasn't really exposed as its an aggressive tactic focused on defending from the front and pinning the opposition into their own half. The Mez and attacking fullback on the same side was so I could overwhelm the opposition on that side and have them worry about me and my attacks. Rather than me worrying about them and what might/might not happen. Why don't you use Inverted Wingback or Wingback? Your Mezzala like to roam from his position so IWB usually run to defend Mezzla's space in middle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 10 minutes ago, harit1mmm1 said: Can you show me your CM(sup)'s PI? Why do you use Pass into space with Positive mentality? I think when players "pass into space", their teammate can't take posseision He just has the normal PI's that come with the role. I didn't add anything. And why not use pass into space with this mentality? It's basically just through balls. So no idea why you think they can't take possession of the ball. A quick look at the tactic and you can see I have runners from every single area on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 minute ago, harit1mmm1 said: Why don't you use Inverted Wingback or Wingback? Your Mezzala like to roam from his position so IWB usually run to defend Mezzla's space in middle Because that's not what I want. And I pretty much know how roles/tactics work, I wrote the guide/books on them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harit1mmm1 Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 minute ago, Cleon said: Because that's not what I want. And I pretty much know how roles/tactics work, I wrote the guide/books on them Thank you! Where can I find your book? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher S Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 51 minutes ago, Cleon said: I pretty much know how roles/tactics work, I wrote the guide/books on them A flex as old as time - never stops working. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher S Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 1 hour ago, Cleon said: He just has the normal PI's that come with the role. I didn't add anything. And why not use pass into space with this mentality? It's basically just through balls. So no idea why you think they can't take possession of the ball. A quick look at the tactic and you can see I have runners from every single area on the pitch. Considering the 4-3-3 you posted further up, is it fair to say the roles&duties + instructions are geared towards a top level team? If so, what (if any) changes would be logical to make if you were to employ the same system to a lower level team? I realize that it's not necessarily that simple, so I'll try to be more specific. After having tried to figure out how to build my 4-3-3 to function the way I wanted for the better part of the last 3 days, I tried plugging in your tactic. I didn't expect it to break my game, I just wanted a point of reference as a lot of the things you've done resonates with what I originally imagined I needed to do. I'm playing as AFC Fylde, in my 11th season having brought them up from the National Leagues, and I'm currently in my 4th season in the Championship. Predicted 15th, despite having finished above 10th 3 seasons in a row. So, what specifically am I asking? Simply put, I've used the system for a string of games. It works wonderfully defensively - no complaints. That being said, I am struggling to create chances outside of the odd ball over the top or in behind. I realize that 'Pass Into Space' encourages this, but still, are there any glaring changes that you'd make to adapt this system to a lesser team? Thank you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleon Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 Quote Considering the 4-3-3 you posted further up, is it fair to say the roles&duties + instructions are geared towards a top level team? If so, what (if any) changes would be logical to make if you were to employ the same system to a lower level team? I realize that it's not necessarily that simple, so I'll try to be more specific. Considering I was Crewe in the screenshots and had been since League One playing the exact same way, no it wouldn't be fair to say it was geared towards a top team. I might be a top team now but I wasn't. I'd not changed anything in regards to tactical settings, role changes or anything. The only thing that had changed was player quality I obviously brought in. Nothing else Quote After having tried to figure out how to build my 4-3-3 to function the way I wanted for the better part of the last 3 days, I tried plugging in your tactic. I didn't expect it to break my game, I just wanted a point of reference as a lot of the things you've done resonates with what I originally imagined I needed to do. I'm playing as AFC Fylde, in my 11th season having brought them up from the National Leagues, and I'm currently in my 4th season in the Championship. Predicted 15th, despite having finished above 10th 3 seasons in a row. So, what specifically am I asking? Simply put, I've used the system for a string of games. It works wonderfully defensively - no complaints. That being said, I am struggling to create chances outside of the odd ball over the top or in behind. I realize that 'Pass Into Space' encourages this, but still, are there any glaring changes that you'd make to adapt this system to a lesser team? Thank you You're struggling because you plugged a tactic in that was created for a specific side and don't have the players needed in the positions for it to function properly. You also did this change while your season is ongoing, so the players aren't familiar with the setting from the tactic I created. Recruitment is just as important as the tactic itself. You need to buy players who actually fit the brand of football you are creating and are able to do the things you ask of them. Regardless of the level you play at this should always be the aim. If you've managed to take Flyde to the Championship and have spent 4 seasons there finishing above 10th every single time, maybe you need to remember where you've come from. You should be building upon your finishes each season while still being realistic with your expectations. Sure someone like myself might be able to get promoted with your team but not everyone will and more importantly you wouldn't view the game like I would. So what you need to do is nail the basics. This is how I view the game; No matter what version of Football Manager I play, whether it be past or even future versions, all the basics are always the same. The match engine might evolve (or get worse in some cases) but the fundamentals of football are always the same. To start with I’ll show you how I approach the game and how to simplify things instead of overcomplicating. For me the game is broken into four parts. All these parts determine how much success I’ll have. Tactics Recruitment Development Morale/Interactions I never lose sight of those four things and if you’re struggling with the game may I suggest you follow a similar approach. You don’t have to copy the above but find what works for you. Let me explain why I think the game is broken into four separate parts. In my opinion if you excel at one of the above then I believe you don’t have to be great at all the categories I mention. If you are only average at any of the above then you’ll need to be stronger in one of the others to make up for it. So lets pretend each one of the categories represents a static 25% of the game (It doesn’t but it makes it easier to get the point across as you’ll see). If you’re really strong at creating tactics, whether it be creating them or maintaining them, then that could likely give you a real advantage and take the tactical element to 50%. What this means is you then don’t have to be so good at the remaining three parts. The opposite is also true and if you are poor at creating tactics then you need to be much stronger in the others to make up for it. You can make it a lot more complicated than that if you really want but I personally don’t see the point in making things more complex. Especially when keeping it simple and thinking about things logically makes much more sense. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher S Posted February 5, 2021 Share Posted February 5, 2021 (edited) Quote Considering I was Crewe in the screenshots and had been since League One playing the exact same way, no it wouldn't be fair to say it was geared towards a top team. I might be a top team now but I wasn't. I'd not changed anything in regards to tactical settings, role changes or anything. The only thing that had changed was player quality I obviously brought in. Nothing else Fair enough! Quote You're struggling because you plugged a tactic in that was created for a specific side and don't have the players needed in the positions for it to function properly. You also did this change while your season is ongoing, so the players aren't familiar with the setting from the tactic I created. Recruitment is just as important as the tactic itself. You need to buy players who actually fit the brand of football you are creating and are able to do the things you ask of them. Regardless of the level you play at this should always be the aim. The first is well within what I expected for that same reason. As for familiarity, my team is maxed out on every category except PRD - as I mentioned, I've been trying to build a system very similar to this all season. If there are some invisible familiarity things going on, then that's fair. But at least the game is telling me my team is plenty familiar already. Furthermore, creating chances has been the issue throughout all permutations of my 4-3-3 this season. I've played a 4-3-3 since the beginning, and I'm now in march - still same issue. I agree re: recruiting, but based on what I see in the setup the players I have should be well suited, but I admit my judgement of the system might not be accurate. I don't have clear cut Mezzala type player at hand, which is partly why I asked the original question - I imagine that changing the MEZ role to something else will impact other things. Quote f you've managed to take Flyde to the Championship and have spent 4 seasons there finishing above 10th every single time, maybe you need to remember where you've come from. You should be building upon your finishes each season while still being realistic with your expectations. Sure someone like myself might be able to get promoted with your team but not everyone will and more importantly you wouldn't view the game like I would. So what you need to do is nail the basics. This is how I view the game; I have managed to do that, but through no concerted effort of my own. Every season has been the me wildly stumbling in the dark trying to build a semblance of a coherent game plan. Every season has consisted of me starting decently, then struggling really hard, only to get by on abusing corner and throw in setups + trying different things in the hopes that something will work. Despite the fact that I've normally blasted through the Championship in max 2 seasons in previous editions, I don't mind taking my time. If I gave a different impression, I apologize. I'm happy to progress my way up - as long as there is actual progress, play wise. As for the basics, I've tried, man. I've spent most of my free time (and some time during work) the past 4 weeks researching, tinkering, asking, thinking and testing - and I've not gotten any further than I was. It's partly due to the fact that I don't process information very well in written form, but that still - my attempts at getting my team to play the way I'd like to is are still as fruitless. I've played FM since FM07, but never felt less capable tactically. Quote No matter what version of Football Manager I play, whether it be past or even future versions, all the basics are always the same. The match engine might evolve (or get worse in some cases) but the fundamentals of football are always the same. To start with I’ll show you how I approach the game and how to simplify things instead of overcomplicating. For me the game is broken into four parts. All these parts determine how much success I’ll have. Tactics Recruitment Development Morale/Interactions I never lose sight of those four things and if you’re struggling with the game may I suggest you follow a similar approach. You don’t have to copy the above but find what works for you. Let me explain why I think the game is broken into four separate parts. In my opinion if you excel at one of the above then I believe you don’t have to be great at all the categories I mention. If you are only average at any of the above then you’ll need to be stronger in one of the others to make up for it. So lets pretend each one of the categories represents a static 25% of the game (It doesn’t but it makes it easier to get the point across as you’ll see). If you’re really strong at creating tactics, whether it be creating them or maintaining them, then that could likely give you a real advantage and take the tactical element to 50%. What this means is you then don’t have to be so good at the remaining three parts. The opposite is also true and if you are poor at creating tactics then you need to be much stronger in the others to make up for it. Well said, and I completely agree. I'd say for me, personally, I struggle to enjoy the other 3 parts if I don't get what I want out of the tactical part. It used to be something I was able to do efficiently, but in the latter editions I feel more and more lost. Normally I'd just compensate, but I've always played FM for the tactical aspect first and foremost. Recruiting better players to compensate for lack of tactical ability feels like a band aid fix to me, almost like cheating. Edited February 5, 2021 by Christopher S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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