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Bale - attributes - question which goes to the core of FM


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As a spurs fan I’m undeniably excited. Can’t wait for FM21, even if I’m dreading the ME, to have him in our squad.

I assume after two years of wales, golf, Madrid his official attributes will be less than great. However by all accounts he’s still a great athlete. Once he starts playing it may become apparent he still has 18 pace and power etc. Which means Jose will get the benefits of a great player.

the way FM is programmed means as a 31 year old his attributes won’t suddenly shoot up even if they were misguidedly set. So all the excitement of having bale will be tempered by the fact that he is doomed to be less than great by FM. 

I guess the point I’m trying to make is attributes are flawed (albeit probably the best way of describing a player without any alternatives). In examples like this it’s really frustrating. I’m sure James Rodriguez didn’t have the best attributes either but careers can be reborn. I’d love to hear of ways in which this problem can be solved. I personally think attributes should be much much more fluid.

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It's just predicting the future. 

About Bale - while it's said he will not start for Spurs until October, it could turn out that his attributes are off the mark in initial FM21 database, but for sure it could be corrected in database upgrades that will be included in patches.

 

More generally it's not unusual that some really talented youngsters in FM turn out to be rather mediocre in real life and vice versa - some players in real life emerge to the highest level that are completely overlooked by the most recent FM. 

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I completely agree and anomalies will naturally exist. Bale is such a prominent player though and it’s a very good way of highlighting the flaws in attributes. 
if attributes were much more fluid and reflect the week in training, players could rise or fall much more realistically.

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1 hour ago, enigmatic said:

I'd probably wait for Bale's attributes to actually be mediocre in FM21 (they probably won't be) and for Bale to actually perform like a great athlete (tbc) before using it as an 'attributes are flawed' argument...

Haha. Fair point. But I was using this more to highlight the issues I currently see with attributes. They should be much more fluid.

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32 minutes ago, Norfair said:

Yeah, this highlights one of the most glaring flaws in FM in my opinion. Without exception, at 32 EVERY last player in FM will start to decline. Agility, acceleration and speed are typically the first to go. And it's a very rapid decline as well. An injury will turn it into a right free fall. In the FM world, you can't have players performing at 34-35. Forget having an Ibrahimovic at 39 playing regularly for a top side in Serie A. FM cannot replicate a scenario like that with the current model where every player more or less becomes useless a year or two after the decline. It's just not realistic that at 32, every player in the FM world starts to decline, and it's always the physical attributes that take the toll. Even strength drops by many steps in just a few years. Why? Do players really get that much weaker at 34 compared to 31? It's ridiculous.

If I could choose just ONE thing for the SI devs to work on and change, it would be this. Not all players irl are molded in the same shape and a game that calls itself a football simulation and has been around for some thirty years simply needs to replicate this a lot better than it does.

Exactly. And attributes can leap or drop like a stone with any player at any time. They’re far too regimented in FM. 

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1 minute ago, steam just is said:

Haha. Fair point. But I was using this more to highlight the issues I currently see with attributes. They should be much more fluid.

Not sure if this may answer your concern or not - there is already a fair amount of what we might term "fluidity" in attributes.

Attributes develop in anything but a regular or linear fashion.  It's quite common to see peaks and troughs in attributes over time and see small declines.  Ever notice those little orange down arrows next to a player's attribute(s)?

Further, regardless of what the attributes state on a player's profile, their ability to actually utilise those attributes effectively in a match is influenced by a whole host of other factors such as: form, condition, tactical familiarity, team cohesion, morale, body language, consistency and pressure (to name but a few).

To put this into context with Bale at Spurs, he hasn't lost the ability to run with pace and power, but his condition and match fitness will influence his ability to apply that at first.  This will change over time as he becomes fitter.  He also hasn't lost the ability to pick a pass, or score, or work hard for his team (cough), but until he becomes familiar with Mourino's tactics rather than Zidane's, and he gets to know his team mates better, he may not be as effective as he might become.

In other words, his attributes may not change much but his ability to apply them during matches probably will.  So it's not exactly fluidity of attributes per se, but rather fluidity in application of those attributes.

Of course as a different Researcher makes their judgement call on Bale's attributes we may see changes, but that's a different issue.

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The issue is multiple-faceted.

Here I have detailed one of the sides of the issue.

Bale at the moment comes completely out of shape. His physical attributes are still there, however he will need proper physical strength and conditioning in order to reach that level again and peak. FM does not reflect this. With a proper training camp and physical training at this age he very likely still has the same stamina, acceleration, etc. In FM, at that age, if an attribute has declined, it will likely stay so.

When it comes to his technical and tactical attributes (mental), I highly doubt he declined and "lost" skills, he simply lacks matches that would expose him to the real stimulus and thus reach his previous level again.

FM has a flawed model when it comes to modeling the physical attributes, how they grow, are maintained, lost, etc. It was a decent model a while back, but we know how things are done in real life and the current model doesn't come close.

As for the speed of decline of a player, they are being way too harsh. A player benefitting of the best coaches, training conditions, high professionalism, determination and natural fitness should be able to play into his 40s. Look at Ibrahimovic, he is at 39 and still able to play at the very top with Milan, despite that career threatening injury at United.

Look at Ronaldo. There is absolutely no sign that indicates he would not be able to play at a top team in his 40s (given a catastrophic injury doesn't happen) and still be a top player. Ze Roberto as well as another example. There are cases, where if all the variables are right, this will happen.

And might I add, Zlatan is nowhere near the athlete Ronaldo or Ze Roberto were. I feel he falls under them when it comes to "Natural Fitness", yet he is able to play into his 40s at the top.

The FM model doesn't allow this to happen. Professionalism and NF slow down the aging but not by that margin.

 

 

Edited by Lexis
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6 hours ago, herne79 said:

To put this into context with Bale at Spurs, he hasn't lost the ability to run with pace and power, but his condition and match fitness will influence his ability to apply that at first.

This may not be true any more, if people are expecting the same Bale that left Spurs back in the day to suddenly waltz back into the PL then they're probably in for a shock. At 31 as his body has aged and he's picked up injuries throughout his career (same as most players) and it simply can't do what it used to at 18-25 or so. The top players start to use their brain more and adapt their game so that they can still affect a game, but in different ways than they used to. Ronaldo would be a prime example of this; he no longer plays out wide so much and does all the sprints and dribbles he used to as a kid at Man Utd. Now he's arguably more an archetypal penalty box player and leaves other younger, fitter players to do his running for him and saves his energy for where he's most effective.

In Bale's case I imagine he's a researcher's nightmare, as he simply hasn't played enough football over the last 18-24 months to be able to judge the decline in his attributes so well. He's probably not been fully match fit in the games he has played, so as in real life it's tricky to model him as you really don't know what you're gonna get with him.

IMO FM does a reasonable job of keeping the very top players relevant once they hit 31-32. It's the players of lesser ability that it struggles to credit with a bit more intelligence towards the end of their careers, players whose game was previously based more on physical stats. This is where the improvement needs to be made, not for players like Bale.

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Great replies here and each valid. There is no right and wrong. 
I think the researchers are fantastic and attributes are pretty fair up to a given moment in time.

the point we are making is (like @Lexis said) is the game doesn’t then develop these attributes accurately, instead following a very linear model.

@herne79said there is already fluidity but nowhere near enough IMO. why not link attributes to weekly training? These will make for better training indicators and show a player who is either really not at the races or in the form of their lives. If bale has, for example, 14 pace in the 21 game....it mans my wage budget is whacked on an average player who may well still be a world beater but the game won’t allow for that jump. 
 

and yes I get the point about this being multi faceted (confidence, morale, tactics etc) but if his pace is designated at 14 then he won’t be able to go any faster. 
 

i guess this brings a bigger question. What is an attribute score and what does it actually mean? 

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In my saved game I was thinking of loaning him at Nottingham Forrest, but at 32 he was rated as an average Championship player by my scouts. Seemed quite weird as he was still dominating and playing extremely well for Wales and had also put in a handful of very good performances for Real Madrid the first part of 21/22 season. Couldn't take the risk though as 25% of his salary was still significant. 

Were the scouts right? Or could he have played well with consistent football at 32?  

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2 hours ago, coppicat said:

In my saved game I was thinking of loaning him at Nottingham Forrest, but at 32 he was rated as an average Championship player by my scouts. Seemed quite weird as he was still dominating and playing extremely well for Wales and had also put in a handful of very good performances for Real Madrid the first part of 21/22 season. Couldn't take the risk though as 25% of his salary was still significant. 

Were the scouts right? Or could he have played well with consistent football at 32?  

How good are your scouts would be the first question?!

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7 minutes ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

How good are your scouts would be the first question?!

20 -19. Quality of the scout was fine. Just wondering if the ability can really drop that quick. Its virtually a matter of 8 months he would have dropped 2 stars in ability and be unfit for Premiership at 32 

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3 hours ago, coppicat said:

In my saved game I was thinking of loaning him at Nottingham Forrest, but at 32 he was rated as an average Championship player by my scouts. Seemed quite weird as he was still dominating and playing extremely well for Wales and had also put in a handful of very good performances for Real Madrid the first part of 21/22 season. Couldn't take the risk though as 25% of his salary was still significant. 

Were the scouts right? Or could he have played well with consistent football at 32?  

Average Championship players make up half the Wales squad, Kieffer Moore and League One loanee Joe Morrell bossing it irl. 

Don't pay your scouts assessments much notice imo. As manager you will know better.

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4 hours ago, IbrahimAliMaher said:

How good are your scouts would be the first question?!

The scouts would have to be idiots not to rate Bale higher than championship standard. Come on.

this goes to the core of the problem. 
@swansong what does it mean as a manager you should  know better. Are you saying attributes are effectively meaningless? 
 

sorry to labour the point but in the game who decides the attributes (I know irs researchers IRL) but I mean whose telling you someone’s attributes in the game itself and can they be wildly wrong??

 

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9 minutes ago, steam just is said:

I mean whose telling you someone’s attributes in the game itself and can they be wildly wrong??

Attributes are absolute. They can't be wrong.

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20 minutes ago, steam just is said:

The scouts would have to be idiots not to rate Bale higher than championship standard. Come on.

this goes to the core of the problem. 
@swansong what does it mean as a manager you should  know better. Are you saying attributes are effectively meaningless? 
 

sorry to labour the point but in the game who decides the attributes (I know irs researchers IRL) but I mean whose telling you someone’s attributes in the game itself and can they be wildly wrong??

 

The attributes you can see are what they are. But when your scouts give star ratings or say "decent Championship player" that's a subjective opinion and not worth the pixels it's printed on.

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Ah cheers.

so. Last question I promise. 
 

the attributes are the players standard ability. Within a game, depending on Morale, tactics, form etc a person with 10 passing could play like a 20? But that doesn’t mean they’re a 20. If they start playing brilliant passes every game will it reflect in the attributes quite quickly?

 

like I said. Last question 

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12 hours ago, ronnidalhoff said:

I thought Scouts gave their star ratings according to ability only and not attributes. 

Yeah to an extent. Attributes receive different weighting depending on their position (IIRC), so their CA as a striker is mostly based on their striker attributes. However it is still possible to have a Premier League quality advanced forward who is rated as a Championship player by your scouts because his hold up and creative play bring the assessment down. If you're not asking him to hold the ball and create, but instead run in behind, then the scout report is misleading.

 

12 hours ago, steam just is said:

Ah cheers.

so. Last question I promise. 
 

the attributes are the players standard ability. Within a game, depending on Morale, tactics, form etc a person with 10 passing could play like a 20? But that doesn’t mean they’re a 20. If they start playing brilliant passes every game will it reflect in the attributes quite quickly?

 

like I said. Last question 

The higher his passing and technique, the more likely he is to pull off the brilliant passes that he sees with his vision and decision making. Assuming the 2 example players have similar vision and decisions and are seeing and trying the same passes (and ignoring other things like composure or balance), then the higher passing player will be more consistently hitting the pass. Both will occasionally underhit or overhit the pass, but you'd expect that to happen more from the weaker passer. Doesn't matter so much if he's playing out wide into space and his teammate has time to take a touch and control it, but if he's trying to thread the eye of the needle...

As you say this will be affected by consistency/morale/form/whatever which will bring up the consistency of their passing but not result in a permanent attribute gain unless you're working on that attribute in training. The problem with basing attributes on game performances which is what you're wanting (I think?) is that it really depends on your tactics. Someone playing out on the wings or a ball playing defender, where they have time and space to make a pass will rack up more successful passes than someone in the congestion in the middle but that does not mean the central playmaker is a worse passer of the ball just because he pulls off less successful passes. Swap the players around and you'll see him play a lot better in the other position and the BPD struggle in the middle. But if he's already playing brilliant passes every game anyway, then do his attributes need to skyrocket? They're just there to help guide what he can and can't do. If he's already doing it, then the attributes aren't holding him back in that particular instance.

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Thank you @Cal585

but surely if he’s doing it week in and week out then his attributes should reflect that. I’m actually of the opinion attributes should reflect the week in training (with averages for the year also listed). The match shouldn’t define attributes I agree. But if someone is hitting 20 rating passes every match and they have a 12 rating, the rating must be wrong?

 

 

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9 hours ago, steam just is said:

Thank you @Cal585

but surely if he’s doing it week in and week out then his attributes should reflect that. I’m actually of the opinion attributes should reflect the week in training (with averages for the year also listed). The match shouldn’t define attributes I agree. But if someone is hitting 20 rating passes every match and they have a 12 rating, the rating must be wrong?

 

 

It's not that simple, though. A pass doesn't just go by the Passing attribute, but a number of attributes, such as technique, vision, flair, etc. They all contribute to what kind of pass they make, whether it is accurate, whether it's to the player's feet or a pass into space for someone to run onto, etc.

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It has to be said that players playing into their late 30’s is an exception to the rule, especially in the elite leagues. Players keeping all their physical attributes at that age is almost unheard of. That said, based on watching a lot of football IRL, while I have seen experienced players drop off slightly physically, it’s very rarely to the extent you see in FM. 

At the start of an FM save, there are lots of players into their 30’s with fantastic physicals. That’s because our observations from real life know these to be true. Ten seasons into a save, my instinct is there are only a fraction of similar players. This is after the FM model for physical decline has kicked in.

FWIW if ever there was a candidate for an early drop off, it’s Bale. He started in first team football very young, pace and power were key elements to his game and recurring injuries (and political reasons) have meant his career has been very stop start when at his peak. 

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4 hours ago, AFCBeer said:

It has to be said that players playing into their late 30’s is an exception to the rule, especially in the elite leagues. Players keeping all their physical attributes at that age is almost unheard of. That said, based on watching a lot of football IRL, while I have seen experienced players drop off slightly physically, it’s very rarely to the extent you see in FM. 

At the start of an FM save, there are lots of players into their 30’s with fantastic physicals. That’s because our observations from real life know these to be true. Ten seasons into a save, my instinct is there are only a fraction of similar players. This is after the FM model for physical decline has kicked in.

FWIW if ever there was a candidate for an early drop off, it’s Bale. He started in first team football very young, pace and power were key elements to his game and recurring injuries (and political reasons) have meant his career has been very stop start when at his peak. 

Albeit he’s been rested for 2 years but Yh you’re right.

I signed Messi at 36 for Spurs and his strength is 3. I expect that’s weaker than a young child.

Attributes are obviously one of the key components of FM. it’s not easy to change such a fundamental concept. I just think as the game becomes more visually realistic they also become (slightly) redundant. In the days of text only FM, all play was in the imagination. now we can see the players attributes in actual form. I’m not saying do away with them but maybe they’re the next big evolutionary step for FM. does Jose really have a squad list with attributes or does he have coach comments (great passer, not hardest worker, good leader etc). It’s then for the manager to really ascertain what the attributes are. Or does that make the game ridiculously complicated and too hyper realistic??
 

 

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There used to be some options in the past to obscure attributes. If they still existed i'd definitely be using them. For example one could display attributes not from a range of 1 to 20, but 1-5 (while the actual attribute distribution is still active of course, it's just visual). This way a player with a 4/5 in pace could actually have pace from 12 to 16. Observing a players performance, noting down strengths and weaknesses would be much more important this way.

 

edit: With options i mean user-created skins 

Edited by Nikopol
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1 minute ago, Nikopol said:

There used to be some options in the past to obscure attributes. If they still existed i'd definitely be using them. For example one could display attributes not from a range of 1 to 20, but 1-5 (while the actual attribute distribution is still active of course, it's just visual). This way a player with a 4/5 in pace could actually have pace from 12 to 16. Observing a players performance, noting down strengths and weaknesses would be much more important this way.

There is a skin for this

https://fmwkdsoul.wordpress.com/2019/11/21/no-attribute-skin/

Just adjust the colours to the range you want.  

I tend to make 1-5 a colour 6-14 a colour and 15-20 a colour so I can see major strengths and weaknesses at a glance

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Agree that FM model is probably based on old data, and that current players keep their physical attributes for more years as long as they have the "natural fit" and "professionalism" to keep training hard like Ronaldo, Ibra, Sergio Ramos, etc as also the doctors, fitness coaches, technology, food and supplements, etc have evolved so fast in the past years and I don't think FM models that well enough.

About Bale in particular I'm not sure... as a Real Madrid fan... he is still fast but his professionalism, team work and work rate must be rated really low. I wonder if he has trained hard the last two years or just enough to not to be fired legally because lack of professionalism but not enough to fight for a starting position as it was a zero chance for him due to his attitude, I'd also rate his adaptability to 0, a guy that has been in Spain for that many years and can't speak a single Spanish word nor had any friend in the team. I bet his shoulders and arms are fit from playing golf, but that doesn't apply for football I'm afraid.

Hope he will get back to what he was now in the PL, so we have a chance to sell him for something at least, but I don't have high hopes, he might get injured soon again in the calfs as every season as soon as he sprints.

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6 hours ago, Icy said:

Agree that FM model is probably based on old data, and that current players keep their physical attributes for more years as long as they have the "natural fit" and "professionalism" to keep training hard like Ronaldo, Ibra, Sergio Ramos, etc as also the doctors, fitness coaches, technology, food and supplements, etc have evolved so fast in the past years and I don't think FM models that well enough.

About Bale in particular I'm not sure... as a Real Madrid fan... he is still fast but his professionalism, team work and work rate must be rated really low. I wonder if he has trained hard the last two years or just enough to not to be fired legally because lack of professionalism but not enough to fight for a starting position as it was a zero chance for him due to his attitude, I'd also rate his adaptability to 0, a guy that has been in Spain for that many years and can't speak a single Spanish word nor had any friend in the team. I bet his shoulders and arms are fit from playing golf, but that doesn't apply for football I'm afraid.

Hope he will get back to what he was now in the PL, so we have a chance to sell him for something at least, but I don't have high hopes, he might get injured soon again in the calfs as every season as soon as he sprints.

Haha. You must appreciate the things he did for you as well surely! Quite a few cups, goals and big moments.

I have no problem with his adaptability being low for exactly the reasons you said. Or for him to be injury prone. I just don’t want a player on our highest wages to have average attributes throughout..takes away the excitement and probably (hopefully) inaccurate.

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Dele Ali presents another problem with attributes. Sorry for being spurs focused but I’m a fan and always play as them so v familiar with the squad..

Dele’s attributes were probably sky high 3 years ago. They’re now probably quite average, or should be.

but IRL have his attributes got worse or his confidence? has he still got 18 movement, which he definitely had in 2017, in his muscle memory/ mind. The answer is almost definitely yes. So therefore it remains as an attribute and should be scored that way. 

in FM why would PSG want to buy dele when his attributes are average. IRL they know those attributes are still there so may take a punt and see if he regains his potential. 

so when a player gets transferred in FM can his attributes, within the game, go up very rapidly? 
 

this differs from Bale and James Rodriguez as he’s still young, 

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If you don't agree with the attributes he ends up with, just use an editor to modify it to what you think it should be. It's just a game and it will never be as accurate as what you want it to be, so change it yourself and enjoy the game. 

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On 24/09/2020 at 10:54, Sevkak said:

If you don't agree with the attributes he ends up with, just use an editor to modify it to what you think it should be. It's just a game and it will never be as accurate as what you want it to be, so change it yourself and enjoy the game. 

It's not really a debate about attributes, rather how growth/decline should be modeled in the game.

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The game does very little to award playing well and not much to punish playing badly. A player that ends the season with a 7.5 average rating will have the same attribute progression as a player with a 6.7 average rating. If in real life someone preformed at the equivalent of 7.5 we would see their attributes go up across the board, and if next season they were mediocre at 6.7 we would see their attributes go down across the board. Players like Morata had their Finishing, OTB and Composure go from 16 in 2018 down to 13 in 2020 - in game this would never happen.

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On 23/09/2020 at 09:40, steam just is said:

I signed Messi at 36 for Spurs and his strength is 3. I expect that’s weaker than a young child.

All attributes are on a scale of professional footballers, not some global measurement.

Therefore, a player with a strength attribute of 1 would be more effective at using what strength he has on a football pitch than an amateur. Usain Bolt during his time of trying football was someone even I assumed would be a 20 pace player by default, however, in the games he got there were many times where he didn't look that fast against lower level opposition. He had some bursts of speed, but he didn't have the footballing knowhow to put himself in a position to get anything close to the speed he can actually reach.

When it comes to players ageing, decline is tied to a few things and it's not as bad as for some players as others. I dislike the fact the game will effectively force players to retire at 40 after the first couple of seasons but when I raised that as I felt it were a bug it was well explained by SI (issues with players just going on far, far too long) but older players can still perform. I've had Aritz Aduriz come in and be top goalscorer coming into the Christmas period at a newly promoted team in the premier league on last years FM. I've had Ronaldo perform exceptionally until 39, and players like Messi, Kroos, Neymar and various others past 35 being absolute lynchpins to my side. 

It's an area of the game that is continually improving however. 

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23 hours ago, santy001 said:

All attributes are on a scale of professional footballers, not some global measurement.

Therefore, a player with a strength attribute of 1 would be more effective at using what strength he has on a football pitch than an amateur. Usain Bolt during his time of trying football was someone even I assumed would be a 20 pace player by default, however, in the games he got there were many times where he didn't look that fast against lower level opposition. He had some bursts of speed, but he didn't have the footballing knowhow to put himself in a position to get anything close to the speed he can actually reach.

When it comes to players ageing, decline is tied to a few things and it's not as bad as for some players as others. I dislike the fact the game will effectively force players to retire at 40 after the first couple of seasons but when I raised that as I felt it were a bug it was well explained by SI (issues with players just going on far, far too long) but older players can still perform. I've had Aritz Aduriz come in and be top goalscorer coming into the Christmas period at a newly promoted team in the premier league on last years FM. I've had Ronaldo perform exceptionally until 39, and players like Messi, Kroos, Neymar and various others past 35 being absolute lynchpins to my side. 

It's an area of the game that is continually improving however. 

Yh I get that Santy.

I guess it would be nice if SI explained what an attribute is and where the value is derived within the conceit of the game. What context should we give it? Do we ignore if a player is playing worldly passes every match with a pass and vision rating of 12?
and I would love it (in a Keegan voice) if attributes reflected your week in training. Perhaps they already do.

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On 22/09/2020 at 10:08, steam just is said:

Thank you @Cal585

but surely if he’s doing it week in and week out then his attributes should reflect that. I’m actually of the opinion attributes should reflect the week in training (with averages for the year also listed). The match shouldn’t define attributes I agree. But if someone is hitting 20 rating passes every match and they have a 12 rating, the rating must be wrong?

 

 

It’s a measure of how good you are at the skill or mental. If the player has a 10 in passing, the ME is going to play him like he has a 10 in passing, period. He won’t magically play like a 20 passer sometimes, he will play like a 10 passer with the variation you will get from form. I think this is really the Crux of the issue. If a player is on good form he will play better on average, and vice versa, same as in real life. Some players go on hot streaks and then return back to the previous ability, reflecting the attributes staying the same but form going up, and some players go on a hot streak and their form increases overall, reflecting growth in the attributes stemming from good form.
 

I think we could simulate Bale coming back as him having very very low (like maybe 10%) match sharpness. He’ll be able to play and have good attributes once he’s back in the swing of things, but it may take him quite a long time to reach that point.

Edited by Sloak
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