help with 3-4-2-1 trying to emulate Paulo Sousa's Fiorentina

[sejo]

Hi everybody, my new challenge is to emulate Paulo Sousa's 3-4-2-1 with Fiorentina: https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2015/11/12/analysing-paulo-sousas-innovative-fiorentina-tactics/ & https://www.just-football.com/2015/11/the-thrill-of-fluid-fiorentina-tactics-paulo-sousa/

I'm having difficulties on setting the 4 midfielders: how do you suggest to play them?

Thank you

 

[Experienced Defender]

I am not familiar with Sousa's style of play and tactic, so I unfortunately cannot help with a replication.

I can only tell you what in my own opinion is generally wrong/problematic in your tactic. Of course, if you want me to? 

[Jean0987654321]

Someone tried to do this a few FMs back.

Honestly, the 3421 shape looks more like a lopsided 4411 shape so I would start with that...

 

[sejo]

8 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

I can only tell you what in my own opinion is generally wrong/problematic in your tactic. Of course, if you want me to? 

Sure, thank you!

 

4 ore fa, Jean0987654321 ha scritto:

Someone tried to do this a few FMs back.

Thanks mate

[kingjericho]

I remember at the time I wrote the post that the 3421 was almost a 4411 where the LB was very attacking and the RB acted as the third CB. That was very difficult to replicate hence the 3421 shape 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, sejo said:

16 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I can only tell you what in my own opinion is generally wrong/problematic in your tactic. Of course, if you want me to? 

Sure, thank you!

Okay, here are key issues in my view:

- as many as 3 playmakers, and in extremely close vicinity at that (a typical example of overkill)

- obvious lack of central penetration

- tight marking can be risky in this type of system

- focusing play down the flanks is probably unnecessary, because in a narrow system much of attacking play will naturally go through the flanks anyway (especially if you mostly play against weaker and defensive opposition)

- it would make more sense to have the central CB as a stopper and lateral ones on defend duty than the other way around

So these are the issues you need to address first. 

[sejo]

2 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

- as many as 3 playmakers, and in extremely close vicinity at that (a typical example of overkill)

How would you fix that in terms of role? Would it be useful to have 2 dm instead of 2 cm?

2 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

- obvious lack of central penetration

same for this

Quote

- it would make more sense to have the central CB as a stopper and lateral ones on defend duty than the other way around

I've read the Atalanta thread, it's there where I've found my setup

Edited September 14, 2020 by sejo

[-Jef-]

RCM - DM-d

LCM-Car

for example

central penetration, you need players who will make runs

someone like SS

[sejo]

17 minuti fa, rosque ha scritto:

RCM - DM-d

Do you mean CM-d?

 

18 minuti fa, rosque ha scritto:

central penetration, you need players who will make runs

SS + AP?

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, sejo said:

Would it be useful to have 2 dm instead of 2 cm?

I was talking about roles (playmakers), not positions. 

 

3 hours ago, sejo said:

5 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

- obvious lack of central penetration

same for this

 

3 hours ago, sejo said:

How would you fix that in terms of role?

Maybe like this:

DLFat

APsu      SS/AMat

CMde     DLPsu

WBat                                 WBsu

CDde  BPDst  CDde

 

[kingjericho]

18 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

Honestly, the 3421 shape looks more like a lopsided 4411 shape so I would start with that...

I remember at the time wanting to do this as a 4411, it would be something like:

CFsu

SSat

WPsu CMde DLPsu Wat

CWBat CDde CDde FBde

GKde

[Jean0987654321]

2 hours ago, kingjericho said:

I remember at the time wanting to do this as a 4411, it would be something like:

CFsu

SSat

WPsu CMde DLPsu Wat

CWBat CDde CDde FBde

GKde

Yeah...that's somewhat close to how I would set it up expect the WP(s) is moved to the middle and replaced by a MEZ (a) and the SS is shifted to the right...

[sejo]

9 ore fa, Jean0987654321 ha scritto:

and the SS is shifted to the right

How?

[sejo]

11 ore fa, Experienced Defender ha scritto:

DLFat

APsu      SS/AMat

CMde     DLPsu

WBat                                 WBsu

CDde  BPDst  CDde

I'll try!

[lfds89]

I would probably try an asymmetric formation:

GK: SK-S

RB: FB-D

RCB: BPD-De

LCB: BPD-De (Stay Wider)

LWB: WB-At

RM: W-Su

RCM: ? Would have to watch, probably CM-Su

LCM : Same, but probably CM-De to cover the LWB runs

LW: AP-Su

CAM/RCAM: AP-At ?

ST: CF-Su/AF-At

 

Some PPMs would be needed surely (LW and CAM with comes deep, CBs with brings ball out and ST with tries to beat offside trap mainly)

[Jean0987654321]

18 hours ago, sejo said:

How?

Something like this

FB (d)-BPD (c)-BPD (d)-CWB (a)

DW (s)-DLP (s)-CM (d)-MEZ (a)

-------SS (a)------------------

---------------CF (s)-----------

[sejo]

5 ore fa, Jean0987654321 ha scritto:

FB (d)-BPD (c)-BPD (d)-CWB (a)

DW (s)-DLP (s)-CM (d)-MEZ (a)

-------SS (a)------------------

---------------CF (s)-----------

The left side is too attacking, don't you think?

[Jean0987654321]

12 hours ago, sejo said:

The left side is too attacking, don't you think?

Maybe but you got enough cover in defense with 3 men back and a CM on defend duty...

Edited September 16, 2020 by Jean0987654321

[summatsupeer]

I'd start with a 4411 then use roles & duties to create the 3421 shape. It won't be perfect but very few FM recreations of real life tactics are.

The article mostly covers the shape, instruction wise there's only really Distribute to CB rather than Play Out Of Defence so there passing range isn't reduced as the article sounds like they can go past the central midfielders.  Counter Pressing due to "immediately win the ball back then drop into a solid shape".  This suggests a lower LOE but that would depend on team mentality which I think should be Balanced/Positive, maybe Counter depending on the opponent.

        DLF-At      

                 AM-At

 WM-At   CM-De   DLP-Su   W-Su

WB-At   BPD-De   CB-Co   IWB-De

    GK?

Don't really know if the roles match for a replication of there actions but thats the general shape and duties structure that should get a 3421 type shape when you have the ball.

A few PIs:

WB-At (DL): Stay Wide

BPD-De (DCL): Stay Wide

CB-Co (DCR): Hold Position

WM-At(ML): Roam From Position, Take More Risks and player with Moves Into Channels trait as I think can't give the PI.  Didn't want to use WP as he would be too deep too often during transitions and IW is a dribbling role which I don't think Valero did.

AM-At (AMCR): Move Into Channels

 

Thats where i'd start, went with IWB-De more for the different depth the back 3 have.  I don't think its possible to get a FB to move to DC when in possession is possible in this engine, would be nice to see in 2021 since we've seen many teams do that.   FB-De with Sit Narrow is the alternative to keep the 4411 defensive structure, could try moving DR to DCR and have no FB/WB but then is the defensive replication being sacrificed for the in possession?  Just having the AMC offset to AMCR annoys me!