Questions on my setups and ways to unlock Raumdeuter

[Halbraum]

This is my first post so i want to salute the great community. I started playing FM one month ago, dear lord it was frustrating to read countless articles in this forum to learn about the game and football theory (im not a fan of this sport actually, so i knew nothing about tactics). Please forgive the broken language, im not a native speaker.

 

I'm currently using 2 tactics; same formation but slightly different setups. Raumdeuter  role is the common feature of these tactics for two reasons: i have an able player and im obsessive.

I have used the first tactic for couple of seasons. It works but not the way i wanted and i feel like i don't know what i'm doing . like we're doing good thanks to talent, not tactic.

Im far away from my main PC so screenshots are created through formation creators.

TI's: 

-Positive mentality

-Wide attacking width

-Play out of defence

-Standard tempo and passing

-Pass into space against bigger sides

-Higher DL against lower clubs, Normal DL against even or bigger sides (my both CDs have 12 accelaration)

-Standard pressing and LOE

Some Explanations and Reasoning:

• My RMD is not a dribbler type (12), i think it makes IF(At) role out of question.
• My forwards are slow,strong, decent dribblers and creative types, so F9 and Treq is out of question too i think.
• AP(su) are the ideal role for that player imo. He's perfectly creative (17 vision, 16 decisions and composure etc.) but below average defender and runner.

QUESTIONS

1. Does this tactic lack penetration? In some matches it seems like we don't have a cutting edge, especially against teams even or lower to us. How can i enhance the penetration?
2. Is WB(su) role too aggressive for left side? AP vacates too far away toward ball sometimes and as you know RMD doesn't track back. Most of the danger comes from left side but i cannot understand if RMD's irresponsibility or aggressive role of LB causes this, i didn't sacrifice width by changing the role but i want to hear your suggestions.
3. What do you think about DM(de) role? Is it unnecessary along with BWM? Both of the roles are press-oriented. Would i lose cover for left flank if change it to Anchorman?
4. Are there somethings to utilize and create space for the Raumdeuter?

HERE COMES MY SECOND TACTIC. I have played with this tactic only for couple of matches so conversations on this one will probably be based on "Will this work?"

Explanations and Reasonings:

-I recruited a good pure winger "accidentally"(30 million £, 8 finishing). He's my only rotation for AMR position and im trying adapt and create a second tactic for him.

-I turned DLF to Attack because i want him to get to opposition area earlier to meet with crosses. 

-I'm using IWB(Sup) to fill the playmaker's space. And hopefully overload there.

-All TIs are same.

QUESTIONS

1. Are my flanks too exposed? I have only used this tactic against very inferior sides so i couldn't understand that.
2. I turned AP to attack in order to make him attack the AM strata aggressively, hopefully DLF(At) creates space for him by stay more forward than DLF(Sup). Is my reasoning correct? 
3. Anything you can advise.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Halbraum said:

Absolutely nothing wrong with this setup of roles and duties 

(assuming, of course, that it suits your players). 

Let's now see the instructions: 

1 hour ago, Halbraum said:

-Positive mentality

-Wide attacking width

-Play out of defence

-Standard tempo and passing

-Pass into space against bigger sides

Basically, I potentially see 2 main issues here: wide attacking width and pass into space (even against bigger teams). 

Explanation: your setup of roles and duties is primarily suited to a possession-oriented style of play. While wide(r) attacking width can make sense as an occasional tweak, I am not sure how much it can be useful as a regular part of your tactic (taking into account what I already said on roles and duties). Especially as you play on the Positive mentality, where width is already slightly wider by default. 

When it comes to the Pass into space TI, I think that no additional explanation is needed. 

1 hour ago, Halbraum said:

-Higher DL against lower clubs, Normal DL against even or bigger sides (my both CDs have 12 accelaration)

-Standard pressing and LOE

Notice the part I bolded above. The problem is that you need better defensive compactness precisely against those bigger sides. However, your compactness - i.e. distance between DL and LOE - is actually the opposite. That said, your defensive setup is less compact against big teams than it is against smaller ones. Another potential problem against those big sides is that your left flank/side looks a bit too vulnerable (because you have a RMD, an attack-minded fullback role and a non-holding type of CM role).

[Halbraum]

33 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Basically, I potentially see 2 main issues here: wide attacking width and pass into space (even against bigger teams). 

Explanation: your setup of roles and duties is primarily suited to a possession-oriented style of play. While wide(r) attacking width can make sense as an occasional tweak, I am not sure how much it can be useful as a regular part of your tactic (taking into account what I already said on roles and duties). Especially as you play on the Positive mentality, where width is already slightly wider by default. 

Thanks for the reply. 

I chose to play wide because of, you know, that classic "stretch the opposition defence and create space" reason. But you're right. All i saw was huge gaps between flanks and more isolation of the lone striker. 

I use pass into space occasionally against top top clubs. It benefits raumdeuter well especially if opponent defends high and wide. It resulted diagonal hollywood passes-which i always wanted but couldn't achieve- ,he scored 12 in 5 matches at Champions League.

I didn't even know my setup is possession-oriented. I started the save like " i don't care about possession,camping or shot percentages. I just want to see good movement, "moderately" direct football and space exploitation by Raumdeuter." Now i get 55% possession and all highlights are at the edge of the box doing tiki-taka-like football. I think my problem is me not knowing how to achieve the football i wanted from my team to play. Even if i knew to do that, i think it's impossible to play like that when you're considered a "big side". Everyone park the bus against me except top 10-20 teams in the world.

And you're right again. Overlapping full backs easily kill my left side. Even 2nd division teams could do that. Side-effect of raumdeuter.

 

 

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, Halbraum said:

I chose to play wide because of, you know, that classic "stretch the opposition defence and create space" reason. 

Okay, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. That's why I suggested using it just as an occasional in-match tweak (among others), rather than all the time. Plus, you don't have any central deep runner attacking the box, so increasing the width is probably not an effective strategy in this case. 

Having said that, a tweak you might benefit from could be something like this:

DLFsu

RMD                                  IWsu

DLPsu   CMat

HB/DMde

WBsu    CD   CD/BPD    WBsu

NOTE: I am talking exclusively about your first (blue) setup. The other (red) one suits a different style of play.

[Halbraum]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Okay, but that's just one piece of the puzzle. That's why I suggested using it just as an occasional in-match tweak (among others), rather than all the time. Plus, you don't have any central deep runner attacking the box, so increasing the width is probably not an effective strategy in this case. 

Having said that, a tweak you might benefit from could be something like this:

DLFsu

RMD                                  IWsu

DLPsu   CMat

HB/DMde

WBsu    CD   CD/BPD    WBsu

NOTE: I am talking exclusively about your first (blue) setup. The other (red) one suits a different style of play.

Appreciate your help, thank you. 

Just out of my curiosity; what would your answer be to my third question of the first tactic: What do you think about DM(de) role? Is it unnecessary along with BWM? Both of the roles are press-oriented. Would i lose cover for left flank if change it to Anchorman?

[Experienced Defender]

21 hours ago, Halbraum said:

Just out of my curiosity; what would your answer be to my third question of the first tactic: What do you think about DM(de) role?

Depends on what you want from your DM. If you want him to be chiefly focused on protecting the back-line and nothing more than that, then an anchorman is the most logical option. If you play both fullbacks in attack-minded roles - not necessarily on attack duty, because WB and CWB are attack-minded on support duty as well - then HB is probably the optimal choice. DM on defend is a bit more aggressive than anchorman in terms of pressing and also more attack-minded in possession. BWM is the most aggressive in terms of pressing and tackling and can therefore be a bit risky as a lone DM due to the tendency to step out of position when pressing aggressively. 

 

21 hours ago, Halbraum said:

Is it unnecessary along with BWM?

No, there is nothing wrong with that combination. You can pair a BWM on support in CM with either DM on defend or anchor or half-back. But always pay attention to other roles around them as well as players' attributes and traits. Because each role requires a certain type of player in order to work properly. 

 

21 hours ago, Halbraum said:

Would i lose cover for left flank if change it to Anchorman?

I don't quite understand this question. Why would you lose (defensive) cover if you change your DM into anchor? 

[Halbraum]

7 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

I don't quite understand this question. Why would you lose (defensive) cover if you change your DM into anchor? 

I thought that i had no real defensive cover for the left flank(due to WB and AP roles), and DM's pressing tendency would help to  decrease exposal. So i assumed that Anchorman would be less willing to leave his position toward incoming danger from the left side. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Halbraum

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Halbraum said:

I thought that i had no real defensive cover for the left flank(due to WB and AP roles), and DM's pressing tendency would help to  decrease exposal

If you want better defensive cover (and solidity overall) on the left flank, then:

- either change the AP into a holding or covering role (which would, in turn, probably require a couple of tweaks elsewhere as well)

- or change the RMD into a more defensively responsible role

Btw, what exactly do you mean by "DM's pressing tendency" and how is it supposed to "decrease exposure"? 

[Jean0987654321]

OP, you might get away with a more attacking left flank with a Carrillero covering those guys.

 

The AP (s) can shift to the right side of midfield as well and that should give you a bit of balance

Edited September 15, 2020 by Jean0987654321

[summatsupeer]

On 11/09/2020 at 22:50, Halbraum said:

TI's: 

-Positive mentality

-Wide attacking width

-Play out of defence

-Standard tempo and passing

-Pass into space against bigger sides

-Higher DL against lower clubs, Normal DL against even or bigger sides (my both CDs have 12 accelaration)

-Standard pressing and LOE

Your questions for have already been answered so i'm just going to add my thoughts on the tactic.

Looking at roles & duties I'd prefer the playmaker to be on the IF-Su flank as either AP-Su or DLP-Su so they can combine and transitions take place mostly on that side.  I'm thinking more DLP so he "Holds Position" to cover the WB-At and gives depth for recycling and switch of play.  That should draw the defending team to that side and give space for a diagonal pass or back post cross.  I would like a more all round player than a BWM to then be in the MCL spot as CM-Su or CAR-Su.  The LB in this setup doesn't need to give width as early so i'd use a FB-Su who can overlap later on.

I wouldn't look to play wider. I wouldn't use Pass Into Space (leave that to playmaker, IF and DLF to try often). I'd consider Counter Press to try and win ball back quicker and let the DR recover.

On 11/09/2020 at 22:50, Halbraum said:

HERE COMES MY SECOND TACTIC. I have played with this tactic only for couple of matches so conversations on this one will probably be based on "Will this work?"

Explanations and Reasonings:

-I recruited a good pure winger "accidentally"(30 million £, 8 finishing). He's my only rotation for AMR position and im trying adapt and create a second tactic for him.

-I turned DLF to Attack because i want him to get to opposition area earlier to meet with crosses. 

-I'm using IWB(Sup) to fill the playmaker's space. And hopefully overload there.

-All TIs are same.

Roles & Duties look fine, its a faster attacking style with more risks being taken so i'd expect less possession than tactic 1.  Playing "Wider" fits this setup more since want to use space quickly and its less about moving the ball around to create space.  I'd probably just stick with the WB-Su rather than CWB-Su, just needs to give some width, doesn't need to roam IMO.

[Halbraum]

45 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Looking at roles & duties I'd prefer the playmaker to be on the IF-Su flank as either AP-Su or DLP-Su so they can combine and transitions take place mostly on that side.  I'm thinking more DLP so he "Holds Position" to cover the WB-At and gives depth for recycling and switch of play.  That should draw the defending team to that side and give space for a diagonal pass or back post cross.  I would like a more all round player than a BWM to then be in the MCL spot as CM-Su or CAR-Su.  The LB in this setup doesn't need to give width as early so i'd use a FB-Su who can overlap later on.

Your advices have made wonders, thanks. DLP-Su on the IF's side created really well movement patterns. That role is not eager to make frequent through balls as much as the AP and i like that. I feel like BWM on the left side decreased exposure from that flank (19 work rate,18 tackling, 16 accelaration? That guy is an animal).  Nevertheless i haven't seen a diagonal ball to RMD but tactic works, so it's okay.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Halbraum

[Johnny Ace]

I was using a RMD system the other week where he performed well, 11 in 24 or something like that. It's one of the snazzy roles that really interests me but barely use as it's hard to find the right player for the role

He's basically a wide poacher but he's great watch as you'll see him looking for space & ghosts in at the far post (if he's capable)

A couple of notes I picked up if you're looking to get the best from him , a short play system suits the RMD & any playmaker will pick up balls your RMD could be receiving 

Otherwise your tactic looks tactically sound 

 

[Halbraum]

9 hours ago, Johnny Ace said:

I was using a RMD system the other week where he performed well, 11 in 24 or something like that. It's one of the snazzy roles that really interests me but barely use as it's hard to find the right player for the role

He's basically a wide poacher but he's great watch as you'll see him looking for space & ghosts in at the far post (if he's capable)

 

It's my favorite role! Actually i don't like to call him the "Wide Poacher". I think it sounds dull for the job that Raumdeuters do . "Wide Advanced Forward" i'd like to call him.  I agree it's a demanding role.

A lot of people say "You have to set your DL deep, pressing less urgent , more direct passing in order to use best of the RMD." But imho that's not realistic and also doesn't work.

Real life players  who can be considered as Raums are all play for top clubs that desire to have the ball -at least in most of their matches-. Müller, Delle Alli, maybe Callejon etc.

However, one can argue that RMD role isn't the same in FM as in real life. In FM you cannot easily utilize a Raumdeuter who has not good acceleration and pace. But Thomas Müller is not one of the most athletic players in the world clearly.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Halbraum

[Johnny Ace]

26 minutes ago, Halbraum said:

A lot of people say "You have to set your DL deep, pressing less urgent , more direct passing in order to use best of the RMD." But imho that's not realistic and also doesn't work.

Can totally agree, that's pretty much the opposite of what you want for him

He won't do a lot during build up, his job's basically to get forward in space & find the net. Playing deep & direct would give him a lot more work to do. This is considering a player with typical RMD PPIs

Agree too, I don't think the RMD role suits Muller either, I always played him IF(S) to better make use of his skills & Lewa in an more advanced role & both would perform great  

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Halbraum said:

Your advices have made wonders, thanks. DLP-Su on the IF's side created really well movement patterns. That role is not eager to make frequent through balls as much as the AP and i like that. I feel like BWM on the left side decreased exposure from that flank (19 work rate,18 tackling, 16 accelaration? That guy is an animal).  Nevertheless i haven't seen a diagonal ball to RMD but tactic works, so it's okay.

 

Thinking about it now, direct diagonals are probably more likely in tactic 2 than 1.  Tactic 1 whilst it doesn't use lower tempo or shorter passing has a lot of support duties so is more possession orientated to work the ball into the final third, at that point there's rarely space to play a direct diagonal in behind the opponents defence.  Tactic 2 has more risks being taken by players in midfield+attack hence wants quicker attacks so a direct diagonal is more likely to enter the third, especially a AP-At compared to a DLP-Su.

Hence I suggested the BWM in MCL should be more of an all round player with the passing and mental attributes to receive a switch of play from the right flank and play a shorter through ball or pass to feet of the RMD.  If he doesn't have the attributes to do it then having him plus a DM-De could be very conservative, fine against teams who attack you but against defensive teams you might lack some creativity.  With two conservative midfielders (player attributes & roles+duty) then could the DL create, if so then how (method + target)?

[HanziZoloman]

On 14/09/2020 at 12:09, Halbraum said:

Your advices have made wonders, thanks. DLP-Su on the IF's side created really well movement patterns. That role is not eager to make frequent through balls as much as the AP and i like that. I feel like BWM on the left side decreased exposure from that flank (19 work rate,18 tackling, 16 accelaration? That guy is an animal).  Nevertheless i haven't seen a diagonal ball to RMD but tactic works, so it's okay.

 

Maybe train your DLP in switch flanks

[Halbraum]

10 hours ago, HanziZoloman said:

Maybe train your DLP in switch flanks

Thank you for the advice. I tried that, most of the time -if not always- it led to horizontal passes, not diagonal. "Tries long range passes" did more benefit in terms of diagonals but ruined attacking patterns. 

It's best to leave it to roles and duties imo.

My humble experiment: Footedness ( i don't know if it's the right word) is a bigger factor than i was expecting. I experimented it with 4 similar players attribute-wise. Two of them were right-footed, others were lefties. Left-footed ones were doing more long diagonal balls from right side. Difference wasn't huge although was more than traits did.

Edited September 17, 2020 by Halbraum

[HanziZoloman]

11 minutes ago, Halbraum said:

Thank you for the advice. I tried that, most of the time -if not always- it led to horizontal passes, not diagonal. "Tries long range passes" did more benefit in terms of diagonals but ruined attacking patterns. 

It's best to leave it to roles and duties imo.

Well you tried. I have good experiences with that.

[GianniM]

On 14/09/2020 at 12:14, Johnny Ace said:

a short play system suits the RMD & any playmaker will pick up balls your RMD could be receiving

What do you mean by this? 

[Johnny Ace]

11 hours ago, GianniM said:

What do you mean by this? 

Basically, playmakers are the focus of the team which would mean the raumdeuter isn't 

[HanziZoloman]

The ball goes to the playmaker first and he will try to unlock the Raumdeuter. The Raumdeuter needs enough space to hide and go there in the right moment when the playmaker play the key pass. 
that’s why overloads on one side are a good way. The opponent shift to the crowded side while the Raumdeuter hides on the other side. The ball goes to the playmaker who switches the flank and unlocks the Raumdeuter.