Need help with 4-2-3-1 Wide.

[HUMBL3B33]

So, i recently joined the FM community and only recently have started playing Football manager in general.

 

I have a few questions to ask before i get any help with my current tactic. As i have followed guidetofm.com for articles and Bust the net (by our own Rashidi) as well as Zealand on youtube for their videos for now. But i have not been able to understand and grasp the basics of football manager. Please recommend some place for me to understand the basics of how to make my own play-style and tactic. I want to play a position heavy attacking plays-style and in defence i want my team to stay in shape more than anything.

1. How does roles and duties of each position work.

2. How does the Team Instructions work.

3. How does Mentality change the risk taking of an individual.

4. How many attacking, support and defend to keep at any particular zone.

 

I would love to hear from all of you. Any input from anyone is highly appreciated. 

Any reference to any literature or channel to get more information is highly appreciated. (i.e Discord servers, websites, books)

 

Now coming on to the tactic i'm playing with currently.

 

 

My aim is to deploy attacking fullbacks with holding players up top to support their runs and then cross into the box as soon as possible. In defense the team tries to win back the ball asap by counter pressing.

The AF(A) up top is there to keep the opponent defenders on their tows and make it hard for the opposition fullbacks to deal with the bombing fullbacks and wide players.

AM(S) Will provide the necessary penetration and passing, Whereas the deeper DLP(S) will try to recycle the 2nd balls and CM(D) will provide a defensive cover to the attacking teammates.

I like my team to build from the back as well hence i use 1 BPD.

 

Now as you can see in the analysis.

1. I concede a lot of long range shots, How do i stop them?

2. I have been scoring goals with my deeper players more than the players up top which obviously have better finishing ability. (Likes of Danny Ings, Nathan Redmond and Che Adams). Part of which is that my strikers and Attacking mids in particular does not get clear chances at all unless i play against a very weak side. 

3. I concede stupid goals against similarly reputed teams with just 1 pacey striker taking the ball from their half to my box and scoring alone whereas i have 3 players on him. with all of them having at least 15 pace 12 acc and 14 marking. 

4. i get a lot of touches in the opposition penalty box but not a lot of goals from them. However the best chances always happen to come to the deeper players like hojbjerg and ward-prowse as compared to the forwards to an extent that hojbjerg is my leading goal scorer along with danny ings. How do i fix that?

5. How to know what kind of players do i need to buy for my tactic.

 

Again, Thanks for all the efforts anyone would go through to help me with anything in particular and i am looking for a lot of help from everyone on the forum.

 

[Johnny Ace]

Have you seen guidetofm's Rate my Tactic tool?  https://ratemytactic.web.app/

I'm not sure I 100% agree with everything but it's handy punching your tactic, seeing the feedback & working toward a style of play 

[HUMBL3B33]

15 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

Have you seen guidetofm's Rate my Tactic tool?  https://ratemytactic.web.app/

I'm not sure I 100% agree with everything but it's handy punching your tactic, seeing the feedback & working toward a style of play 

Thanks for the input mate. I have been on the site for a bit. But never really noticed the tool. Great addition. Thanks a lot. 

[Johnny Ace]

4 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

Thanks for the input mate. I have been on the site for a bit. But never really noticed the tool. Great addition. Thanks a lot. 

I think it's it only a couple of months old & in beta stage still

It's a really interesting site but trying to get your head around everything & put it together was a nightmare so that helps massively. It doesn't factor in PIs which I hope it will at some point  

[Experienced Defender]

58 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

in defence i want my team to stay in shape more than anything

Then do not use extreme pressing and/or tight marking. As well as the counter-press. 

 

59 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

Roles and duties look pretty decent (although AF may struggle as a lone striker in an aggressive system + is not an optimal partner for an IF on attack duty).

But instructions are very confusing. Can you explain the reasoning behind the following:

- cautious mentality?

- frequently waste time (especially in combination with the Distribute quickly)?

[HUMBL3B33]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Then do not use extreme pressing and/or tight marking. As well as the counter-press. 

 

Roles and duties look pretty decent (although AF may struggle as a lone striker in an aggressive system + is not an optimal partner for an IF on attack duty).

But instructions are very confusing. Can you explain the reasoning behind the following:

- cautious mentality?

- frequently waste time (especially in combination with the Distribute quickly)?

I think those just slipped in when i was preparing to get a screenshot. Might've been there because of another tactic. But i usually play on a positive mentality (cautious when up against a top 6 side). And no time wasting at all (until i feel like i have to see of the match against a tougher opponent).

I use AF as my first choice striker danny ings is most comfortable playing that. Any suggestions what to do with it? Whether i should change AF to something else or IF to support?

[HUMBL3B33]

50 minutes ago, Johnny Ace said:

I think it's it only a couple of months old & in beta stage still

It's a really interesting site but trying to get your head around everything & put it together was a nightmare so that helps massively. It doesn't factor in PIs which I hope it will at some point  

It's a great tool tbh! I was looking for something like this since ages. It kind of helped me understand some of the fatal mistakes i was doing with my tactics. Which even the experienced defender has pointed out correctly. 

[Experienced Defender]

2 hours ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

I use AF as my first choice striker danny ings is most comfortable playing that. Any suggestions what to do with it?

Ings can play a number of roles (AF, PF, DLF, CF, F9). But in this particular system, I would opt for DLF on attack duty. 

 

2 hours ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

Whether i should change AF to something else or IF to support?

As for the IF, I would keep him on attack duty, but would instead change the LB into WB on support. Because with both wide players on attack duties in a system such as 4231 - your left flank will be too exposed. 

[HUMBL3B33]

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Ings can play a number of roles (AF, PF, DLF, CF, F9). But in this particular system, I would opt for DLF on attack duty. 

I had the same idea but i worried if Ings might just become a pivot for the attack instead of the spearhead.

 

6 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

As for the IF, I would keep him on attack duty, but would instead change the LB into WB on support. Because with both wide players on attack duties in a system such as 4231 - your left flank will be too exposed. 

I just checked it on the rating tool on the guidetofootball.com, They recommend to use a Fullback on Support on the LB with IF they said there isnt enough solidity on the left flank. Any inputs?

[Bruce Drundrige]

50 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

I just checked it on the rating tool on the guidetofootball.com, They recommend to use a Fullback on Support on the LB with IF they said there isnt enough solidity on the left flank. Any inputs?

Have you tried it in game to see what works? Sometimes you just need to watch what happens and make adjustments if required based on what you see.

I've plugged my current tactic into that app - a nice tool btw - and it mentions I have four "High Risk Direct Partnerships" and one "High Risk Overlapping Partnership"...and it's correct, but that's kind of the point of the tactic (it's a 4-2DM-4). The current iteration has been tweaked based on what works in game and it scores a lot of goals because of those high risk and direct partnerships.

If anything the issues I have with mine are because the players aren't quite good enough!

Edited September 8, 2020 by Edinton

[SixPointer]

I would highly recommend reading the pairs and combinations thread. It’s a great starting point full of fantastic information. 

[HUMBL3B33]

3 hours ago, Edinton said:

Have you tried it in game to see what works?

Doesn't depend more on the opposition i play against. A better opposition team like Manchester City and Liverpool will anyway find a way to score past me regardless of my tactic. Other than the big six i haven't had much problem anyway. Infact We've upset Spurs twice (Once in league and Once in FA Cup).

Is there a way to know how to approach a game depending upon the opposition? Everyone says i should check the analysis page but i am not sure as to what exactly am i looking for. 

 

Almost all of the big 6 teams bash me as if my defence is not present. If i keep a compact defence they score a ridiculous long range short and vice versa. And we end up with a loss of somewhere around 2-4 goals with this tactic.

So, For example: I faced Arsenal twice and scored 2 goals each time against them only to see them coming back and scoring 4 goals past me even when i am playing very defensively and parking the bus.

Similarly, faced Man city 3 times this season alone. Twice in League and once in Carabao Cup. City have literally bashed me with minimum 3-4 goals every time whereas i failed to make decent enough chances against them. Now i am up against them in FA Cup.

 

How do i make sure that i at least manage to outwit them tactically and salvage a decent draw. Because as far as i know any top 6 team would have better personal than i do at southampton in my first year.

[HUMBL3B33]

45 minutes ago, SixPointer said:

I would highly recommend reading the pairs and combinations thread. It’s a great starting point full of fantastic information. 

I am not sure where to look them up. Tried a simple google search but i got confused even more than before. Would you be able to help me with a reference or link of some sort?

[HanziZoloman]

Try pairs & combinations! It describes how to create something with movement and how roles combine with each other. There is also an outtake from p&c around here somewhere by @Jack722 or @Jack774

[HUMBL3B33]

9 minutes ago, HanziZoloman said:

Try pairs & combinations! It describes how to create something with movement and how roles combine with each other. There is also an outtake from p&c around here somewhere by @Jack722 or @Jack774

Didn't get you mate? 

Are you referring to a guide created on the forum by @Jack722 ?

[xavierm]

Il y a 1 heure, HUMBL3B33 a dit :

Is there a way to know how to approach a game depending upon the opposition? Everyone says i should check the analysis page but i am not sure as to what exactly am i looking for. 

First, check the roles and formation. You can often have an idea on how they are going to play just with the roles and formation.

As an example, a left side with a WB(A) and an IF(S) will see two players on the wing (well, one on the wing and the other in the half space) and you must take care of it, be it with a midfielder tracking their wingback, or a more cautious combination of roles and duties on your wing. Or you can also decide to ignore it and play a W(At) in order to get behind their WB(A). It's up to you to choose, there's no rule of thumb saying "when they play like this, I must do like that". I played against PSG which had Neymar and Mbappe as IF(A) with two offensive WB. With my 3-5-2, I decided to aggressively man mark Neymar and MBappe with 2 of my CB, letting my sweeper and a player I dropped in the DM spot handling the center of the pitch, and I also man marked the two WB with my own WB. It was a tough decision to take, but it somehow worked with me winning 3-2, conceding only on corners and Neymar / Mbappe were played out of the game. Of course, that was risky because would Neymar have overrun my CB, he would have been open...

Other things to check is the heatmap and the passing analysis. Passing analysis can help you identify their main players you have to take out of the game, heatmap can help you tell how they are playing. I'm playing with a 3-5-2 (well, 5-3-2) with a flat midfield. When I see on the heat map my opponent is usually playing in the space between my 3 men midfield and my 3 men defence, I can act accordingly, be it by dropping an midfielder in the DM strata, or adjusting with a CM(D) or BWM(D) to protect that space.

Another example : on one fixture against a 4-2-3-1 I saw many passing combination between their BPD and one winger. I chose to man mark him tightly with my own WB and to pressure him to get sure he wouldn't get the ball.

Pre match analysis gives you a ton of useful (or not) informations but I agree it's not that easy to decide how to react.

Edited September 8, 2020 by xavierm

[warlock]

27 minutes ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

Are you referring to a guide created on the forum

It's this one:

Stickied at the top of this subforum. There are a ton of good tutorials and explanation in the other sticked threads beneath that one.

[SixPointer]

31 minutes ago, warlock said:

It's this one:

Stickied at the top of this subforum. There are a ton of good tutorials and explanation in the other sticked threads beneath that one.

This is where tactics started making sense to me. Your best learning about tactics in an overall sense in the game. What does what etc before digging in. That way you don’t get too overwhelmed and start selecting too many, conflicting or needless instructions. It will make the game feel a lot more simpler to you then the real fun begins. Best of luck your on the right path now  

[Experienced Defender]

8 hours ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

I just checked it on the rating tool on the guidetofootball.com, They recommend to use a Fullback on Support on the LB with IF they said there isnt enough solidity on the left flank. Any inputs?

There is not enough solidity because both wide players are on attack duties - especially as you use a top'-heavy formation without a DM. I personally would rather either switch the fullback to WB on support or the IF's duty to support.

So either this:

IFat    

         CMde

WBsu

Or this:

IFsu

        CMde

FBat

However, if you want to keep Ings as an AF, I would prefer a combination where the IF is on support. 

But whichever role combo you eventually opt for, it needs to go hand in hand with the overall context of your tactic and playing style. Do not make any tactical decision on a random basis. 

[HanziZoloman]

2 hours ago, HUMBL3B33 said:

Didn't get you mate? 

Are you referring to a guide created on the forum by @Jack722 ?

Yes that’s it. It is p&c on attacking roles and helped me a lot:

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by HanziZoloman

[Bruce Drundrige]

On 08/09/2020 at 20:43, HUMBL3B33 said:

Doesn't depend more on the opposition i play against. A better opposition team like Manchester City and Liverpool will anyway find a way to score past me regardless of my tactic. Other than the big six i haven't had much problem anyway. Infact We've upset Spurs twice (Once in league and Once in FA Cup).

Is there a way to know how to approach a game depending upon the opposition? Everyone says i should check the analysis page but i am not sure as to what exactly am i looking for. 

 

In terms of the section in bold, that statement can be true regardless of who you are or how you setup but it can say more about them than it does you (I mean just look at the performance of those two clubs in the EPL over the past three seasons...)

For the bit in italics, @xavierm has already given you plenty of good stuff there. In terms of the opposition analysis, and linking to xavierm's post, make sure one of your scouts is set to Scout Next Opposition because they will return a report in advance of each match setting out the expected formation and roles of the opposition. That - plus things like the betting odds* in the preview story - give you a good indication of how they are likely to set up.

*You can anticipate their approach based on this, i.e. are you overwhelming favourites which means they will defend or take less risks? Are they favourites so likely to attack you?

 

[diimaan]

Not sure if it helps but I am currently playing a similar tactic but I have players of extreme quality who can finish off their chances! Your mileage may vary.

 

 

I am using Esposito at CF on Support and Mo Salah on IF Attack. But when I play Hlozek on AMR I switch him to IF on Support and Esposito on CF attack! Mo's Superior finishing helps him to take chances if they come his way! 

Still my preferred tactics is/was 4411 as below! Llast season I conceded only 14! Good players matter as well but I feel it is more solid at defense than 4231! With new players warrant a change in tactics, I can use Hlozek as MR but not Mo! May be next season after he retires I will revert