An issue with 5-2-3: WB goes into libero's position to cover, instead of the side CB tucking in

[backpocket]

Playing with a 5-2-3 with a libero, and something weird happened when the libero went to close down.

Naturally, if he vacates the space, you'd think the side CB would tuck in, followed by the WB to take his place.

But what happened was my WB ran from his position to cover the middle. And when that happened, my whole back 3 squeezed in. Consequently, this gave huge space on that flank which resulted in a goal (which pissed me off to no end for a good few minutes).

Here's the play. First image for context of the match: Valencia-Arsenal CL match.

My libero, Ajer, goes to close down the forward.

The forward runs wide, and consequently there's a big gap in the middle. But instead of the CB (No 16) tucking in...

My left wingback (No 3) takes his place in the middle! Look at that huge bloody space on the left!

Which was immediately exploited...

And it was a goal, bloody hell.

I was livid! Luckily we managed to salvage a draw. But still, I'm trying to figure out the reason for this. Was it a match engine issue, as in this is the pre-assigned rotation if the libero left his position? Or was it tactical, as in my libero closed down too much? 

Here's the tactic for reference:

Thoughts? I'm wondering if it's the aggressiveness of closing down more and the high line.

Edit: My CB's don't have a PI's. Only my CM has "roam from position" but that's it.

Edited August 28, 2020 by backpocket

[Experienced Defender]

Hard to say for sure - and I may well be wrong - but perhaps this behavior was caused by counter-press. Because CBs and fullbacks are not involved in the counter-press, but wing-backs (position) are. So maybe your LWB moved to the right to join the counter-press as the opposition counter-attack was going through that side as well. 

Again, just my guess, not an assertion. 

[scratchmonkey]

That's an interesting possibility -- to add some anecdotal evidence to this thread, I played a very similar formation at Torino using a libero and wingbacks (no wingers though) and I never saw this behavior -- I had Counter-Press off as I used a split block instead.

[backpocket]

It could be counter-press, though this is the first time I saw it (in my 3rd season with it). Never used a 3 man back line or libero before this.

The LWB’s movement reminds me more of, say a CM(d) covering for a FB who pushes up to press a winger. 

But that still doesn’t explain why all 3 defenders tucked in so much, unless that’s a counter-press behaviour to squeeze space, since this is the first few seconds after we lost the ball, so we haven’t repositioned yet.

Or having a new guy in the back line, my CBs are confused so they’re whispering to him, “Hey mate go to my left! I cover that space!” 

[Experienced Defender]

7 hours ago, backpocket said:

But that still doesn’t explain why all 3 defenders tucked in so much, unless that’s a counter-press behaviour to squeeze space, since this is the first few seconds after we lost the ball, so we haven’t repositioned yet

That particular type of behavior from your defenders (CBs) probably has nothing to do with counter-press, because it's a natural tendency of players - especially defenders - to shift synchronously to the side where the opposition attack is moving through and try to compress the space there as much as possible. Of course, an increased pressing urgency (or otherwise aggressive manner of defending) will probably encourage them to be more harried when doing that, so it might explain the action on the pitch you observed. The fact that your players haven't consolidated defensively until that point can on the other hand explain the confusion in their defensive shape. 

[backpocket]

21 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Of course, an increased pressing urgency (or otherwise aggressive manner of defending) will probably encourage them to be more harried when doing that, so it might explain the action on the pitch you observed. The fact that your players haven't consolidated defensively until that point can on the other hand explain the confusion in their defensive shape. 

I’m starting to feel that’s more likely. Basically my team played risky to win the ball back and got exposed, and the opponent did well enough to exploit it.

Thanks! It’s interesting that I still see new things after playing all these years.

[Manutd1999]

It could be worth submitting this to the bugs forum?

Maybe your pressing and defence set-up is contributing, but regardless of how you set your team up that shouldn't be happening IMO. 

[Experienced Defender]

18 minutes ago, Manutd1999 said:

It could be worth submitting this to the bugs forum?

Maybe your pressing and defence set-up is contributing, but regardless of how you set your team up that shouldn't be happening IMO. 

If you don't have any constructive advice to offer to the OP and are only going to complain about some imaginary "bugs", then better do not post a comment at all. Because the vast majority of tactical issues are caused by poor tactical decisions on the part of us, FM players, and therefore have absolutely nothing to do with the ME. 

[Manutd1999]

^ an unnecessarily aggressive response don't you think?

A left wing-back moving into the centre of a back 3 is unnatural behaviour. Maybe it is tactical, maybe it is not. I was merely suggesting that he let SI take a look and they can decide whether the bug is "imaginary" or not. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Manutd1999

[dekzeh]

20 minutes ago, Manutd1999 said:

^ an unnecessarily aggressive response don't you think?

A left wing-back moving into the centre of a back 3 is unnatural behaviour. Maybe it is tactical, maybe it is not. I was merely suggesting that he let SI take a look and they can decide whether the bug is "imaginary" or not. 

Whilst I see your point people are just way too fast to call things a bug, especially since with the info OP provided this is not a a repeating issue, but rather an one off thing, and as such it's hardly worth considering it a bug.

I agree that players shouldn't do this, but players make mistakes and do things they shouldn't do all the time, they are not robots and won't do everything to perfection. A combination of the tactical setup and players making a wrong judgment decision on the pitch, this is all there is to see here.

Of course, if OP goes on to see this happening a lot, it's a different thing, but conceding because the players made a stupid decisions or interpreted an instruction wrong is something that not only is not a bug but is also is a positive for the game.

[enigmatic]

I've played this formation a lot with very high pressing and not seen this kind of defending. 

tbf I think the wingback would still have had to tuck in anyway because of the amount of extra players the opposition has arriving in the middle of the park, which is a weakness of a 5-2-3 shape especially if the libero roams wide, but the wingback moving inside Holding instead of them both tucking in is strange. Only time I can imagine that happening in a real world game is if one of them was man marking or Holding was asleep.

I do think a midfielder on defend duty might solve this issue by being deeper and either doing the closing down that Ajer does or filling in his place in the middle instead of the wingback. Also wonder if the Carrilero in front makes the wingback more likely to leave his flank as theoretically the carrilero is tasked with supporting defensively in wide areas.

But I also think it's something SI's bugs team ought to have a look at, as it's a bit odd and taking place at elite level. I can see how it can happen in terms of player instructions [DCs default to holding position and wingbacks have more freedom to roam and fill gaps] but this is a situation where the defensive line ought to coordinate its shape better with no man marking to worry about. And tbf the ME is usually very good at making wingbacks drop back into a properly shaped defensive line: if anything they're normally a bit too disciplined!

Edited August 31, 2020 by enigmatic

[Experienced Defender]

26 minutes ago, Manutd1999 said:

^ an unnecessarily aggressive response don't you think?

A left wing-back moving into the centre of a back 3 is unnatural behaviour. Maybe it is tactical, maybe it is not. I was merely suggesting that he let SI take a look and they can decide whether the bug is "imaginary" or not. 

No problem. Report the "issue" to SI and let us focus on tactical discussion here in the tactical forum 

[backpocket]

12 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I do think a midfielder on defend duty might solve this issue by being deeper and either doing the closing down that Ajer does or filling in his place in the middle instead of the wingback. Also wonder if the Carrilero in front makes the wingback more likely to leave his flank as theoretically the carrilero is tasked with supporting defensively in wide areas.

Now that you say that, I think having a CM(d) would solve this niche situation, as I've mentioned before that what the LWB did seems similar to what a CM(d) does.

On 29/08/2020 at 12:16, backpocket said:

The LWB’s movement reminds me more of, say a CM(d) covering for a FB who pushes up to press a winger. 

But I like having a carillero so I guess I'll take the risk of this happening 1 in probably 100 games.