Why is my away form so poor

[_mxrky]

Don't know why it just seems like artifically the other team get a million times better at home than they are away:

Here are my tactics

 

My Home vs away form

 

 

The difference is ridiculous. Teams that i batter at home are all of a sudden beating me and it seems like my players miss the chances they score at home. Need help because i dn't understnd why there is such a big difference between home and away on this game, despite me having what is the best squad in the world

[scratchmonkey]

Do you use one of those tactics more predominately away, or one over the other in all situations?

Posting who you've played might help as well, to identify some sort of pattern.

[_mxrky]

6 hours ago, scratchmonkey said:

Do you use one of those tactics more predominately away, or one over the other in all situations?

Posting who you've played might help as well, to identify some sort of pattern.

Not really. It mainly depends on whether my players are injured or not not. The second one is my main tactic. I lose away games against all types of sides

[zyfon5]

10 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Don't know why it just seems like artifically the other team get a million times better at home than they are away:

Here are my tactics

 

My Home vs away form

 

 

The difference is ridiculous. Teams that i batter at home are all of a sudden beating me and it seems like my players miss the chances they score at home. Need help because i dn't understnd why there is such a big difference between home and away on this game, despite me having what is the best squad in the world

Can you post one of the saved matches here? without any context its hard to pinpoint what is the exact problem here. Your tactics although have some little problems but not enough to explain the huge difference home and away so will need to look what happened in the match.

[_mxrky]

1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

Can you post one of the saved matches here? without any context its hard to pinpoint what is the exact problem here. Your tactics although have some little problems but not enough to explain the huge difference home and away so will need to look what happened in the match.

How do I do that?

[_mxrky]

8 hours ago, zyfon5 said:

Can you post one of the saved matches here? without any context its hard to pinpoint what is the exact problem here. Your tactics although have some little problems but not enough to explain the huge difference home and away so will need to look what happened in the match.

Here are my last two losses away from home. 0 goals scored in both despite having decent chances.Norwich v Arsenal.pkm Huddersfield v Arsenal.pkm

[Experienced Defender]

The first tactic makes a lot more sense than the other one, especially in terms of roles and duties. I would discard the one with 2 mezzalas and focus solely on the first one, because it needs just a couple of tweaks to be very good (provided you pay attention to player selection besides roles/duties).

[_mxrky]

The second tactic is more successful than the first for some reason. What changes would you suggest for the first one?

[_mxrky]

14 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

The first tactic makes a lot more sense than the other one, especially in terms of roles and duties. I would discard the one with 2 mezzalas and focus solely on the first one, because it needs just a couple of tweaks to be very good (provided you pay attention to player selection besides roles/duties).

What would you suggest?

[Fatkidscantjump]

I'm having the same issues, with a similar tactic.

My home form is superb. I'm still unbeaten in late March. I've beaten PSG twice, 2-0 vs Tottenham, earlier in CL i've beaten Arsenal, 4-0 against Valencia.

 

However i dropped a lot of points in Ligue 1 on away games. And the wins I get are pretty much my Goalkeeper saving us 2 or 3 times. I'm having the same issues as you described, players seems to waste a lot more chances, and sometimes I can't even create good ones (against big teams).



Valencia that I easily beat 4-0 at home beats me, Arsenal beats me, PSG beats me. I'm a few clicks away from the 2nd leg against Tottenham and i pretty much know they're gonna win 4-0 or something, whereas in the home first leg i created like 4 clear cut chances against them and won 2-0. It actually happened to me last year, I beat Liverpool 3-1 at home and they won 4-0 at Anfield. I thought, hey its Anfield, and they have a way better team, but now it clearly seems to be a trend for my team to underperform in away games.

And surprisingly (or not) my tactic is similar to yours ;

I've tried to copy the tactic but with a lower defensive line / line of engagement, and a Balanced mentality for away games, didn't seem to have much effect unfortunately.
I'm kinda lost here to be honest, wondering if I should make a new tactic from scratch especially for away games.

 

EDIT : Well I've played the Tottenham away game, with a Cautious mentality and lower lines (both defensive and engagement). Result was a 0-0 draw, very stale match. They did not create a clear cut chance but we only had 3 shots (!), 0 on target. This is literally the opposite of the team i manage in home games winning with good looking attacking / controlling football.

 

Edited July 31, 2020 by Fatkidscantjump

[summatsupeer]

Gonna focus on the first tactic initially.  I think you've fallen into a common  4141 DM wide trap of having the forwards so attacking and no one using the AMC area.

I'd bet the IF-At and DLF-At get isolated being attacking with everyone else on support besides a FB.

No one really uses the AMC area, DLF-At will be typically in STC area, IF-At wide/high, MEZ-Su will move wide, W will be wide and DLP deep.  This combo of roles&duties could split the team and not give many passing options due to lack of options in central attacking area. shorter passing might further limit the passing options.

You say your second tactic performs better, I think that's because theres more players in attacking areas and centrally.  I dont really like its combinations though and commits so many players forward it's likely why you have a Jekyll and hyde performances.  Teams who are cautious you can attack with all those players in/around the box but if they take more risks and attack the space you leave your in trouble.

Lots of options but depends what your players are good at.  Generally for #1 I'd look for more central presence to help link. #2 I'd not use 2 MEZ, more cover/depth for teams who will attack you and adjust flanks so dont have one side narrow and one side wide.

[HUNT3R]

On 31/07/2020 at 01:27, _mxrky said:

Don't know why it just seems like artifically the other team get a million times better at home than they are away

You have played in 13 away matches and probably more by now - Is there any more context apart from this? You posted your tactical setup, but have you noticed any specific issues? Are you never in the games at all? Are you leading games often but then lose to aggressive comebacks? ETC.

Is there any specific pattern to the goals, basically? Conceding from an overlap on the left flank as an example. Or conceding late. ETC.

 

 

 

[_mxrky]

42 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You have played in 13 away matches and probably more by now - Is there any more context apart from this? You posted your tactical setup, but have you noticed any specific issues? Are you never in the games at all? Are you leading games often but then lose to aggressive comebacks? ETC.

Is there any specific pattern to the goals, basically? Conceding from an overlap on the left flank as an example. Or conceding late. ETC.

 

 

 

If there any pattens I cannot tell. I concede all types of goals. Interestingly I’ve beaten both Man U and Chelsea away from home.

My wings seem to get destroyed, but that’s the case no matter which tactic I use so I don’t know. I sent two Pkm’s  above in the losses of that helps

 

most losses the games are even or I am the slightly better team and I lose

Edited August 1, 2020 by _mxrky

[_mxrky]

10 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Gonna focus on the first tactic initially.  I think you've fallen into a common  4141 DM wide trap of having the forwards so attacking and no one using the AMC area.

I'd bet the IF-At and DLF-At get isolated being attacking with everyone else on support besides a FB.

No one really uses the AMC area, DLF-At will be typically in STC area, IF-At wide/high, MEZ-Su will move wide, W will be wide and DLP deep.  This combo of roles&duties could split the team and not give many passing options due to lack of options in central attacking area. shorter passing might further limit the passing options.

You say your second tactic performs better, I think that's because theres more players in attacking areas and centrally.  I dont really like its combinations though and commits so many players forward it's likely why you have a Jekyll and hyde performances.  Teams who are cautious you can attack with all those players in/around the box but if they take more risks and attack the space you leave your in trouble.

Lots of options but depends what your players are good at.  Generally for #1 I'd look for more central presence to help link. #2 I'd not use 2 MEZ, more cover/depth for teams who will attack you and adjust flanks so dont have one side narrow and one side wide.

What would you suggest then for the first tactic. Cm on attack duty? Making dlf on support? Change if to support?
 

my midfielders are all world class and can pretty much play any midfield role

Edited August 1, 2020 by _mxrky

[Svenc]

48 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

You have played in 13 away matches and probably more by now 

 

Speaking of which, would be interesting to see what it looks over time. Genuine question: Would the away table/form be considered this poor with just two wins more? That'd be top of the tables or thereabouts pretty much away likewise. Just singing, er saying. 
 

 

[summatsupeer]

57 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

What would you suggest then for the first tactic. Cm on attack duty? Making dlf on support? Change if to support?
 

my midfielders are all world class and can pretty much play any midfield role

Well depends how you want to attack but they are valid options.  My general rule of thumb is the more attacking the advanced players are the faster (tempo/distance/mentality) the ball needs to move so there early attacks have space. 

[_mxrky]

Changes made based on the advice. Lose against championship side west ham. Lose against mid table side Bournemouth away from home. Yeah this isn’t fun anymore tbh. Game just plays completely differently away from home no matter what formation or tactics, roles and duties I use. Also player quality doesn’t seem to matter. Doesn’t seem to matter that I have 5 of the best midfielders in the world, they can’t do anything against any side away from home.

i shouldn’t have to make the perfect tactic just to win a game against any team away from home. It’s not fun

[Experienced Defender]

15 hours ago, _mxrky said:

What would you suggest?

A tweak I would definitely make is changing the winger (AMR) into an IW on support in order both to create a natural overlap on that flank and make it less crossing-heavy.

Another optional tweak would be swapping the mezzala's and AML/IF's respective duties - the mezzala on attack and IF on support.

You can also experiment with standard passing instead of shorter (see which works better for your team specifically).

Whipped instead of low crosses is yet another thing you may try as well.

And a split block (unless you are already using it).

[zyfon5]

1 hour ago, _mxrky said:

Changes made based on the advice. Lose against championship side west ham. Lose against mid table side Bournemouth away from home. Yeah this isn’t fun anymore tbh. Game just plays completely differently away from home no matter what formation or tactics, roles and duties I use. Also player quality doesn’t seem to matter. Doesn’t seem to matter that I have 5 of the best midfielders in the world, they can’t do anything against any side away from home.

i shouldn’t have to make the perfect tactic just to win a game against any team away from home. It’s not fun

Hi I've look into your two saved matches. Sorry for the late reply. All three of your goals you conceded were a direct/indirect result of the opposing team actually pushing up their full back in attack to overload your flanks. Due to your inside forward on attack not defending the opponent full back, you conceded three goals. Maybe you should make changes whenever you notice opponents pushing their full backs up undefended. In both matches they play defensive as soon as they are ahead.

Norwich match (0-2): they push their full back up at the start of the match and managed to create dangerous chances. It also doesn't help that your midfielders aren't particularly defensive to compensate either. As a result they managed to overload your flanks which lead to the free kick to second goal and the cross for the first goal. After they were 2 goals ahead they play defensive and didn't give you any chances.

Huddersfield (1-0): Same thing happened again although in this particular match you were quite unfortunate with the missed penalty. Their GK also showed up this match which means an unfortunate loss for you. Huddersfield scored from a perfectly executed counter so not much to complain on that. Also did you play your subs for this match?

 

[_mxrky]

10 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Hi I've look into your two saved matches. Sorry for the late reply. All three of your goals you conceded were a direct/indirect result of the opposing team actually pushing up their full back in attack to overload your flanks. Due to your inside forward on attack not defending the opponent full back, you conceded three goals. Maybe you should make changes whenever you notice opponents pushing their full backs up undefended. In both matches they play defensive as soon as they are ahead.

Norwich match (0-2): they push their full back up at the start of the match and managed to create dangerous chances. It also doesn't help that your midfielders aren't particularly defensive to compensate either. As a result they managed to overload your flanks which lead to the free kick to second goal and the cross for the first goal. After they were 2 goals ahead they play defensive and didn't give you any chances.

Huddersfield (1-0): Same thing happened again although in this particular match you were quite unfortunate with the missed penalty. Their GK also showed up this match which means an unfortunate loss for you. Huddersfield scored from a perfectly executed counter so not much to complain on that. Also did you play your subs for this match?

 

Thank you. How do I stop the overloads?

 

[zyfon5]

22 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Thank you. How do I stop the overloads?

 

Either use a less aggressive role like inverted winger on support or set player instructions to mark opposing full back

[_mxrky]

 

These are my new tactics. Hoping they do better. 

[_mxrky]

Away loss in the last game of the season cost me the title...It’s really farcical tbh.

[Experienced Defender]

On 01/08/2020 at 18:14, _mxrky said:

 

13 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Away loss in the last game of the season cost me the title...It’s really farcical tbh

You are still needlessly using 2 different tactics, neither of which is without flaws. The first one is terribly lacking penetration. The second looks better that the first, but would make more sense with a mezzala on attack in MCL (instead of CM on attack) and without the Overlap left instruction.

I don't know which of the 2 you used in that last game of the season, but the observations I made above will hopefully help you to finally sort it out. 

[_mxrky]

9 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

 

You are still needlessly using 2 different tactics, neither of which is without flaws. The first one is terribly lacking penetration. The second looks better that the first, but would make more sense with a mezzala on attack in MCL (instead of CM on attack) and without the Overlap left instruction.

I don't know which of the 2 you used in that last game of the season, but the observations I made above will hopefully help you to finally sort it out. 

I don’t use either of those tactics anymore and had not lost in 14 games (12 wins 2 draws) until I lost to 15th place wolves.

It’s also not needless since I need to rotate my side very often and so the players change and their roles and duties need to change.

in the champions league final now so hopefully the season ends on a high

i’ll show you the two tactics I use later.

Edited August 2, 2020 by _mxrky

[_mxrky]

@Experienced Defender

These are my two tactics now. The first is the one i mainly use, whilst the second is a rotation option. I just won the cl with the first 

 

 

 

[Fatkidscantjump]

Has your away form improved at all ? I mean, you said you haven't lost, but have you noticed improvements specifically ? Do you play similarly the same in Home and Away games or are the away games closer ?

I'm asking because while my current season have been an improvement compared to the previous one in terms of Away form, I still feel the team to be a bit shaky when not at home, lots of close wins, or frustrating draws.

[HUNT3R]

7 hours ago, _mxrky said:

so the players change and their roles and duties need to change.

Why does this 'need' to happen? If you have a settled tactic, why change it just because you need to rotate?

[mister.cool40]

23 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Why does this 'need' to happen? If you have a settled tactic, why change it just because you need to rotate?

Not necessarily there is a need to change I guess....but you want some different options/taste in players.Also changing roles and mixing it up makes the game interesting..... and immersive.

Edited August 3, 2020 by mister.cool40

[_mxrky]

4 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Why does this 'need' to happen? If you have a settled tactic, why change it just because you need to rotate?

Because the players attributes are not ideal for roles and duties in the 1st tactic 

[_mxrky]

10 hours ago, Fatkidscantjump said:

Has your away form improved at all ? I mean, you said you haven't lost, but have you noticed improvements specifically ? Do you play similarly the same in Home and Away games or are the away games closer ?

I'm asking because while my current season have been an improvement compared to the previous one in terms of Away form, I still feel the team to be a bit shaky when not at home, lots of close wins, or frustrating draws.

Yes the results have improved but the away game in general were tougher. I play the same tactic both away and home

[Experienced Defender]

12 hours ago, _mxrky said:

In this tactic, the DLF would make more sense on attack duty IMHO. And would change the DM into a half-back, given the roles around him (specifically the fullbacks and mezzala). 

 

12 hours ago, _mxrky said:

This other tactic is one I would rather avoid, but that's just my personal opinion. So if it works for you, please ignore my comment 

P.S: Sorry for the reply being so short, but really struggling with time atm.

[_mxrky]

36 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

In this tactic, the DLF would make more sense on attack duty IMHO. And would change the DM into a half-back, given the roles around him (specifically the fullbacks and mezzala). 

 

This other tactic is one I would rather avoid, but that's just my personal opinion. So if it works for you, please ignore my comment 

P.S: Sorry for the reply being so short, but really struggling with time atm.

No worries. The first one I had the dlf on support because @summatsupeer suggestion that there was no one covering the amc area. It seems like it’s working okay. What’s the reason for the half back rather than dm d?

Extra defensive coverage?

the over tactic works okay so far, but is not perfect.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, _mxrky said:

What’s the reason for the half back rather than dm d?

Extra defensive coverage?

Yes.

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, _mxrky said:

No worries. The first one I had the dlf on support because @summatsupeer suggestion that there was no one covering the amc area. It seems like it’s working okay. What’s the reason for the half back rather than dm d?

Extra defensive coverage?

the over tactic works okay so far, but is not perfect.

As you changed the IF from attack to support then the ST didnt need to change to.  As it is looks very possession orientated but then MEZ-At and WB-At bombing forward trying to take risks (crossing/through balls) which doesnt fit though getting them forward helps with more fluid movement.

I prefer your second tactic though I'd personally be a bit more cautious with one of the FBs.  If both push high then the DM and CB have a lot of space to cover on both flanks.

Edited August 3, 2020 by summatsupeer

[_mxrky]

Thing of changing the dm to half back and the rcm to car-su/bwm-su  solve this issue. Not sure if that will reduce attacking effectiveness though.

 

or I could just change my fb to support

39 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

As you changed the IF from attack to support then the ST didnt need to change to.  As it is looks very possession orientated but then MEZ-At and WB-At bombing forward trying to take risks (crossing/through balls) which doesnt fit though getting them forward helps with more fluid movement.

I prefer your second tactic though I'd personally be a bit more cautious with one of the FBs.  If both push high then the DM and CB have a lot of space to cover on both flanks.

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by _mxrky

[summatsupeer]

26 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

Thing of changing the dm to half back and the rcm to car-su/bwm-su  solve this issue. Not sure if that will reduce attacking effectiveness though.

 

or I could just change my fb to support

 

Depends what you see happening and what your players are good/weak at.  HB only really drops into CB when transitioning out of defence, once transitioned into attack hes more back into DM with the DCs narrow so dont have that width like a back 3.

Having both FB get forward is hard to cover from the center compared to a 4411/4231 which can cover both flanks easier (assuming right roles+duty and players able to cover space).

Remember to check the players, might just need a player who can defend better if he isn't expected to take risks with the ball.  Plus a lot of FB have the get forward trait so end up leaving more space than you expect from the tactic.

Just see what is happening, are players out of position so someone else has to cover? Are they where they need to be but just getting beaten?  Do they need more help or do you need a player more suited to those situations?

[HUNT3R]

8 hours ago, _mxrky said:

Because the players attributes are not ideal for roles and duties in the 1st tactic 

Surely there's some middle ground where you can focus on 1 tactic instead of 2? You're doubling the 'work' in trying to sort out two tactics where you could be putting your focus on one and making sure that's good enough, before focusing on adding more variety.

[_mxrky]

New season. First three away games 3 more draws away. Mid table sides dominating me in possession and competing with me tooth and nail despite me having far superior players and the tactic being fairly balanced according to the advice on here. At a complete loss with it tbh

[Experienced Defender]

Having superior players does not mean everything. Liverpool clearly has superior players to Watford, and yet they got destroyed by 3-0 (and deservedly so, because Watford was really the better team in that match). Or Man City losing to Norwich in the first half of the season. Plus a number of other similar examples of top teams being defeated by underdogs. 

8 minutes ago, _mxrky said:

the tactic being fairly balanced according to the advice on here

Where is that tactic? You have changed the tactic(s) several times since you started this topic, so one can hardly imagine what your latest tactic looks like. 

[_mxrky]

23 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Having superior players does not mean everything. Liverpool clearly has superior players to Watford, and yet they got destroyed by 3-0 (and deservedly so, because Watford was really the better team in that match). Or Man City losing to Norwich in the first half of the season. Plus a number of other similar examples of top teams being defeated by underdogs. 

Where is that tactic? You have changed the tactic(s) several times since you started this topic, so one can hardly imagine what your latest tactic looks like. 

this one, but with hb-d and dlf attack.

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, _mxrky said:

this one, but with hb-d and dlf attack.

DLF on attack makes more sense in this particular setup than on support, so that's okay. The same goes for the HB instead of DM on defend. Perhaps the WBiB is overcomplicating your attacks in the final third, so either remove the instruction or pair it with Be more expressive.

In any case, this tactic looks pretty good, so I don't think that any big changes should be necessary. Try a tweak or two here and there until you strike the right chord. Just try to avoid making tweaks randomly and without a clear idea in mind. Watch the matches to estimate what can make sense and what cannot. 

 

[_mxrky]

20 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

DLF on attack makes more sense in this particular setup than on support, so that's okay. The same goes for the HB instead of DM on defend. Perhaps the WBiB is overcomplicating your attacks in the final third, so either remove the instruction or pair it with Be more expressive.

In any case, this tactic looks pretty good, so I don't think that any big changes should be necessary. Try a tweak or two here and there until you strike the right chord. Just try to avoid making tweaks randomly and without a clear idea in mind. Watch the matches to estimate what can make sense and what cannot. 

 

Thanks for all the helP. What adjustments would you suggest vs big teams away? I do fairly decently in generalities against them, but they are very tough

[Fatkidscantjump]

I think this is a specific problem with some formations tbh, and maybe it has to do with how the AI plays at home vs away. If you play with a skin that let you see the roles and duties, you'll notice often times average sides have different roles and duties within the same formation depending on if they play Away or Home.

Maybe the 433 is specifically prone to be exploited by the way some AI manager plays at home. This has been affecting me too, and when I switched to a 442 diamond narrow, I still experienced this but WAY less than before. In my experience they exploit the space in the flanks a lot more, and are more efficient in counter attacks when at Home. Maybe this iteration of the ME also rewards crosses / flanks plays more than before ? Also it could be players underestimating opponents, so maybe better press conference and such would help.

Having a better tactic would ultimately lead to better results but what's frustrating more than the result it's the way the team plays. Not sure if that's the same for you, but at home its a flamboyant attacking football, and most of the times away it's a tough, boring match with lots of fouls and yellows on each side.

But also since no one else is reporting this to my knowledge. It could just be our tactics were super similar and thus suffered the same issues while facing tougher opponents.

[Experienced Defender]

Just now, _mxrky said:

What adjustments would you suggest vs big teams away?

Given that your team itself is also big, once you create a tactic that really suits your players in an optimal way - you probably won't need to make any changes even against other big (top) teams. Just removing the counter-press could well suffice (although even that may not be always necessary). 

I haven't managed a top team in FM20 so far (since I prefer underdogs), so the last top team I managed was Man Utd in FM19 (and tactical principles I used in FM19 normally work in FM20, so it's absolutely comparable). I'll give you a useful example from that save. When I played Barca in UCL, I tweaked my regular tactic to make it a bit more cautious, because Barca was a real top team and favorite against me (I dropped DL and LOE by a notch, switched mentality from Positive to Balanced and maybe a couple more things to that effect). What happened was - Barca took the lead after just a few minutes. Somewhere around 60th minute, I reverted to my regular tactic and made double substitution. It took us only about 10 minutes to turn things around and win 3-1. 

[Experienced Defender]

Player selection also matters a lot. This also applies to rotation. Of course you sometimes have to rotate players, but be careful not to make too many changes at once (compared to the last match). 

[HUNT3R]

7 hours ago, _mxrky said:

New season. First three away games 3 more draws away. Mid table sides dominating me in possession and competing with me tooth and nail despite me having far superior players

Just how effective is/was the counter pressing here?