Struggling with my 4-1-4-1 DM Wide formation(s)

[jalleo]

Hello all, I hope you're having a great day.

I'm currently in my 6th season in a save with Paris FC. Having qualified for the champions league the last season I expected to be potential challengers for the title this season. However it hasn't worked out that way, and i find myself in 9th after 17 matches (being expected to finish 3rd by the media)

Two things has happened in a lot of games this season with the first occurring  a lot more often than the second.

A) I struggle to create any real chances, and therefore struggle to score goals ( The statistics say I have created 39 chances 7th most in Ligue 1, and I also only have 102 shots on target 6th most) . I also concede quite a few goals (17 in 17 games). These 2 factors mean that I struggle to win as many games as I want.

B) I Completely dominate my opponent and create quite a few clear cut chances but don't take my chances, and still concede too many goals ( I have a 8% conversion rate 13th in the league)

This is the tactic I use:

For the PI I have my back 5 on default except for my WBR who has stay wide. My front 5 only has close down more ticked.

Especiallly my DLF(A) and IF left (A)  have been very underwhelming this season racking up only 12 goals combined in december.

I want to play a possession based high scoring tactic ( who doesn't) with my AML and STC racking up the most goals. With offensive wingbacks, and my AP (S) as the mastermind behind most of my attacks while also utilising a relatively aggressive press but without the press getting played out of too easily. I had my LOE to high and extremely urgent pressing, but I found out that my press would get bypassed very easily, hence why I changed it. However it has only come to be an issue this season as I have used it the previous 5 seasons.

For now I am clueless on how to turn this bad season around. One thing that has crossed my mind is that I made a lot of signings, and just threw them into the staring Xl which could have a negative effect ( idk)

Another thing is that I'm relatively new to creating my own tactic and tweaking it accordingly, so I might miss some obvious stuff, so bare over with me.

 

I Have also created a counter-attacking tactic for when I'm playing the european powerhouses, PSG, Liverpool etc. But again I seem to be too vulnerable at the back while also not creating a lot. Which could be down to the fact that I'm only using it against the very best teams in the world. But again im quite clueless on how to create a counter-attacking tactic, so feedback would be approved.

No PI has been utilised in this tactic.

I look forward to hearing your suggestion on how I might improve, thanks.

 

 

[GianniM]

Your first tactic doesn't look too bad. Although I don't understand the shorter passing and play out of defense combined with the counter TI. The ball will be slowly passed around in the back, while your more attack-minded players will be running forward due to the counter TI so they will be out of reach to receive a pass. Surely a short one. 

26 minutes ago, jalleo said:

I have used it the previous 5 seasons.

This may be an issue. If you do the same thing over and over again you're not evolving. Your opponents will get onto you. 

25 minutes ago, jalleo said:

One thing that has crossed my mind is that I made a lot of signings, and just threw them into the staring Xl which could have a negative effect

This is definitely a thing. How many changes did you do?

28 minutes ago, jalleo said:

with my AML and STC racking up the most goals

Perhaps try a winger in the AMR spot to create space for those two and to get more crosses in. 

31 minutes ago, jalleo said:

I Have also created a counter-attacking tactic for when I'm playing the european powerhouses

A CF especially on support duty is more suited for a possession tactic. He will drop too deep to be effective in a counter. You need a striker who's just waiting for that long ball.
And a lone striker up front in general will be difficult for a counter tactic. 

[summatsupeer]

48 minutes ago, jalleo said:

This is the tactic I use:

For the PI I have my back 5 on default except for my WBR who has stay wide. My front 5 only has close down more ticked.

Especiallly my DLF(A) and IF left (A)  have been very underwhelming this season racking up only 12 goals combined in december.

I'm going to focus on this tactic.

A 4141 DM Wide is quite deep with the DM + 2xCM, especially when one of the CM pair is a playmaker.  You've then got two of your front three on attack duty so want to attack quickly but could be lacking support with the only other attack duty being the DR.  Then you've reduced the passing range and made the midfield drop even deeper (play out of defence) potentially increasing the isolation of the forwards. 

If you wanted to play fast attacking then the forwards could use more help from midfield and to get the ball earlier but you don't so...

48 minutes ago, jalleo said:

I want to play a possession based high scoring tactic ( who doesn't) with my AML and STC racking up the most goals. With offensive wingbacks, and my AP (S) as the mastermind behind most of my attacks while also utilising a relatively aggressive press but without the press getting played out of too easily. I had my LOE to high and extremely urgent pressing, but I found out that my press would get bypassed very easily, hence why I changed it. However it has only come to be an issue this season as I have used it the previous 5 seasons.

Well who doesn't want to score lots  If you want possession then i'd want my forwards to be less focused on attacking quickly and instead vary there play to include collecting at feet and recycling possession.  Is a WB-At really a fit for a "possession" system?  Are the players in the box going to get on the end of a cross in a potentially crowded box?

48 minutes ago, jalleo said:

For now I am clueless on how to turn this bad season around. One thing that has crossed my mind is that I made a lot of signings, and just threw them into the staring Xl which could have a negative effect ( idk)

Whilst a settling in period could make them not play to there full ability, i'd look more at how they differ from the players they replaced.  Whilst I assume they are an upgrade, have you lost something?  Do there traits make them play dramatically different?

[jalleo]

56 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Your first tactic doesn't look too bad. Although I don't understand the shorter passing and play out of defense combined with the counter TI. The ball will be slowly passed around in the back, while your more attack-minded players will be running forward due to the counter TI so they will be out of reach to receive a pass. Surely a short one. 

 

I will try to tick off counter to see how that works in the next games

 

56 minutes ago, GianniM said:

This is definitely a thing. How many changes did you do?

 

My whole midfield 3, 1 CB, 1 WBR, and quite a few back ups, but for now I have reverted back to some of the players I used in the previous season for added stability until some of the new signings learn the langauge etc.

 

57 minutes ago, GianniM said:

Perhaps try a winger in the AMR spot to create space for those two and to get more crosses in. 

Something I have actually though about, but I was hesitant due to not having a right footed AMR. Will a left-footed work fine as a winger or will the inverted winger be better suited?

 

59 minutes ago, GianniM said:

A CF especially on support duty is more suited for a possession tactic. He will drop too deep to be effective in a counter. You need a striker who's just waiting for that long ball.
And a lone striker up front in general will be difficult for a counter tactic. 

Nice feedback, I will probably try to create a 4-4-2 Dm and see how that works

[jalleo]

32 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

 

A 4141 DM Wide is quite deep with the DM + 2xCM, especially when one of the CM pair is a playmaker.  You've then got two of your front three on attack duty so want to attack quickly but could be lacking support with the only other attack duty being the DR.  Then you've reduced the passing range and made the midfield drop even deeper (play out of defence) potentially increasing the isolation of the forwards. 

If you wanted to play fast attacking then the forwards could use more help from midfield and to get the ball earlier but you don't so...

So maybe I should put my AP on attack to get him further forward?

 

32 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

 

Well who doesn't want to score lots  If you want possession then i'd want my forwards to be less focused on attacking quickly and instead vary there play to include collecting at feet and recycling possession. 

So more attacking players on support and tick off counter?

38 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

 Is a WB-At really a fit for a "possession" system? 

What role would be better for a possession based system? IWB?

39 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Are the players in the box going to get on the end of a cross in a potentially crowded box?

 

Yep more often than not the box Is very crowded with defenders. Should Work ball into box be ticked to get less crosses?

41 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Whilst a settling in period could make them not play to there full ability, i'd look more at how they differ from the players they replaced.  Whilst I assume they are an upgrade, have you lost something?  Do there traits make them play dramatically different?

Great advice, I will try to analyse this.

[jalleo]

I have now made some changes and changed my system more into a higher pressing agressive side.

I ticked of PoD

Upped passing directness to standard

Upped tempo to higher

Made my AP on attacking duty

Changed to more urgent pressing

Made my AMR to IW (S)

Edited July 30, 2020 by jalleo

[GianniM]

So now you're pressing higher, but passing more directly and faster. I don't think that will work, because due to the pressing you'll be higher up the pitch so that leaves little room for more direct passing. 

[summatsupeer]

2 hours ago, jalleo said:

So maybe I should put my AP on attack to get him further forward?

They don't "Get Further Forward", they'll still move to collect and play more like support but take even more risks.

2 hours ago, jalleo said:

So more attacking players on support and tick off counter?

Don't have to remove counter if your players are quick and you don't mind them trying that and risking less possession.

If you want a more patient attack then I wouldn't have 2 of the 3 forwards on attack.  Just consider how you want them to move and when.  Need some runners, especially from deep in that formation to get up with the front 3.

2 hours ago, jalleo said:

What role would be better for a possession based system? IWB?

One that doesn't look to cross often I think fits a Possession style.  Apart from that it depends what they need to do?  Provide width but look to feed balls to the wide forward or rotate possession?  Sit inside and let the midfielders attack more?

2 hours ago, jalleo said:

Yep more often than not the box Is very crowded with defenders. Should Work ball into box be ticked to get less crosses?

If the players instructions has Cross Often then WBIB won't change there instruction.  If you do WBIB do the players have the attributes to find space and use the ball quickly with so many defenders around?  Do they have the mental+technical attributes to break down defenses and take risks when its a good opportunity as opposed to just taking risks all the time and losing possession.   If not you might need to sacrifice possession to attack earlier/quicker whilst there is space.

[Experienced Defender]

My first piece of advice is to avoid having 2 (or any number of) so different tactics for one same team. You may use the same formation (4141dm wide), but your 2 tactics within that formation reflect completely different styles of play.