Starting to get FM'd = HELP!

[Conor O'Hare]

I've struggled with tactics this year - Much more than on any other game, but I had been doing decent but now I'm facing the AI going defensive against me and I can't get a break - Doesn't help that my players can go relentless one game and then shoot everything straight at the keeper or miles over the bar next, even when they do beat the keeper, a lot of times, they'll hit woodwork.

Here's my tactics and isn't my strongest 11 - I usually have Rashford on the IF L and Martial up front, POgba is usally the DLP and Fernandes is B2B.

 

My plan is for WB on S to stretch the opposition and free up space for my IF on the left  and the Winger on right supported by a FB to provide a second dimenion to my attacis and the advanced forward to try and push the defence back by either running at the defence with ball or making runs off the ball.

My plans is for the b2b making a contribution back in defence, or in carrying ball up field or in arriving late in the opposition area.

I use standard defensive line and lower line of engagement as I want my team to use their pace or quicker tempo and direct passing to hit the opposition on counters.  I have opted against counter pressing as I want my team to maintain shape and let the opposition get the ball up front before we hit them.  Likewise, counters, I want my team to use their intelligence and reading of the game to decide when to counter (that's why both possession instructions are left unticked).

 

But I'm playing some dour football tbh - I've already finished bottom of my european group with 1 win out of 6, and just got kncoked out by Brentford in FA Cup with this being how we performed:

 

[HUNT3R]

23 minutes ago, Conor O'Hare said:

But I'm playing some dour football tbh - I've already finished bottom of my european group with 1 win out of 6

You're quite aggressive with your fullbacks, but you have very little penetration from any of the players behind the striker. Apart from the ST, it's difficult to see how or where you pose a threat, unless you get a fullback cross to net you something. I don't understand the need for the Overlap TIs here. You're blunting your wide attackers - how are they performing for you? In fact, who is doing well in this setup?

Player traits will of course affect things and I don't know who has what, unfortunately.

Quote

the advanced forward to try and push the defence back by either running at the defence with ball or making runs off the ball.

You don't have an Advanced Forward, so is what you're describing, happening?

[Draakon]

For starters, use APa or CMa instead of DLPs. You need attacking player there, as HUNT3R already stated. Somebody who's good on the ball, with vision and dribbling skills. B2Bs as his partner is a good option.

Attacking three would need some testing and depends on players, traits and qualities. In my saves I've often used the same formation with a-s-a orders, meaning that striker is usually in support role, otherwise he'd get way too isolated without AMC and can be restrained by two centre-backs. Depending on the player, DLFs, CFs or F9 could be solid options. PF if you want to press high.

About fullbacks - if they overlap, they want to cross. But to whom? Your striker sits deeper and your wingers are not likely to win any headers. You can drill in some crosses and hope for a missed interception, but through balls could be a way to go there. OR, if you're against really small full-backs or opponent's fullbacks are on attack, you can exploit that gap and direct your crosses there. In that case, overlapping might be right thing to do, but choose it wisely and scout your opponent.

 

[Conor O'Hare]

I've since changed my system to this.  I've removed Pogba as DLP and made him a B2B and made Bruno my APa - I could have made a case for Fernandes being the APA but I think Pogba is the more complete MDF so would like him to do the b2b role.  I've also made Martial my F9 and changed my wide players to attack.  I have had some success with Martial as a f9 in previous games usually with in game tactical changes

[WelshMourinho]

35 minutes ago, Conor O'Hare said:

Likewise, counters, I want my team to use their intelligence and reading of the game to decide when to counter (that's why both possession instructions are left unticked).

You want your team to use their intelligence and reading of the game to decide when to counter, but you've also asked them to play more direct passes, with a quick tempo with long goal kicks over the oppositions defence. You've basically asked your team to play constant, quick direct balls so won't really be any reading of the game - they're just going to look to hit the forwards quickly most of the time. I imagine you might be seeing a lot of long balls being intercepted, especially against teams that sit back deep. You'll just be playing into their hands.

You've also got the rather odd combination of a much lower LOE alongside prevent short goal kicks. I'd be interested in seeing the thinking behind that?

Ultimately I think TI wise, you'd be better off stripping a few of those down and having a think about what you want to do with the ball when you aren't countering. The idea itself isn't bad, anyone who's watched Man Utd irl knows how deadly they are on the counter, I just think you've gone all in on that style of play. Let the counter attacks happen naturally, don't try to force it by giving the ball away constantly.

[Conor O'Hare]

3 minutes ago, WelshMourinho said:

You want your team to use their intelligence and reading of the game to decide when to counter, but you've also asked them to play more direct passes, with a quick tempo with long goal kicks over the oppositions defence. You've basically asked your team to play constant, quick direct balls so won't really be any reading of the game - they're just going to look to hit the forwards quickly most of the time. I imagine you might be seeing a lot of long balls being intercepted, especially against teams that sit back deep. You'll just be playing into their hands.

You've also got the rather odd combination of a much lower LOE alongside prevent short goal kicks. I'd be interested in seeing the thinking behind that?

Ultimately I think TI wise, you'd be better off stripping a few of those down and having a think about what you want to do with the ball when you aren't countering. The idea itself isn't bad, anyone who's watched Man Utd irl knows how deadly they are on the counter, I just think you've gone all in on that style of play. Let the counter attacks happen naturally, don't try to force it by giving the ball away constantly.

I had forgotten I had the prevent short GK activated activated - Oops

Your comment about let them happen naturally - Wouldyou suggest making passing standard and letting the players do their own thing - The take long kicks is sometimes it just takes a missed header or wayward pass to open up a chance - No matter what style I play with I always want my keeper kicking over the defense from GKs to try and force those errors.

[Draakon]

About striker roles - you probably want somebody there who can hold up ball and look patiently what's going on around him. In previous FM-s I've found that F9 is often too impatient and he started to take ambitious shots from distance instead trying to find his teammates. It might work, if he's brilliant with the ball and has a great LS ability, but more often than not it's just a waste of possession.

 

[Conor O'Hare]

Well I played with my first game with the amendments in the second tacic I posted and I was quite pleased with what I saw.

The midfield finally clicked for me - Although we were up against Leicester who are 17th and just hired Patrick Viera as their manager so not reading too much into this as anybody may have battered them - but for me, we wouldn't have battered them before, my big issue with the run of league games that has made us sit third in the league is that we usually won a game due to a moment of brilliance - This was a well worked team performance.  We also didn't just play comstant long balls, but we did play direct - rarely did I see a pass going backwards and we were quite ruthless with how we played - I wonder how it'll work if we face a team who sits back though, I imagine I might have to play a bit shorter in that occassion.  

Also the amount of attacking chances we went onto create thanks to our long kicks from the keeper justifies my thinking in having it, none of them led directly to a goal today but we kept Leicester on the back foot and even when they did win them, they played in a manner which meant their players rushed to attack us and that played brilliantly into our hands.  As for countering, we countered beautifully in this game - Much more considered than just trying to counter every time we won the ball which is what happens when counter is ticked - To score 4 goals and have only 34% of possession shows that we very much played on the counter but none of my defenders/GK got above a 7 in rating so it was a quiet day in the office for them - My MDF won us this game.

[Conor O'Hare]

Yeah, my positive was a false dawn.  I can't win against defensive teams and I can't win against the teams that do attack me- My only wins come from either a set peice goal or a mistake.  Every time my players get in behind, they either pass it back (despite being some in front of them in space) or else they hit a cross right at the full back or else they hold onto the ball just in time for the opposition to tackle - I guess Im not cut out for this game.

[herne79]

41 minutes ago, Conor O'Hare said:

I guess Im not cut out for this game

You are .  The issue here is the same as every single person who has ever played FM has gone through - one of using a bunch of tactical settings because they sound good but end up doing more harm than good.

From your latest system:

20 hours ago, Conor O'Hare said:

I've since changed my system to this

The thing with the tactic creator is you get given all the toys to play with but it's not always wise to get them all out of the toy box at the same time because your players won't know what to play with first.

Defensively it's a bit of a mess.  Using the offside trap with a relatively low defensive line (a player positioned at DMC as you have will naturally push your defenders a little deeper) isn't always a good idea - and a terrible idea if you use offset central defenders (like cover/defend here) because for the trap to work your defence needs to be in line.  You've also asked your defence to not engage early because you've lowered your line of engagement, yet you want them to mark closely and tackle harder.  What makes you think defenders can't mark or tackle all by themselves?  Again, these things sound good but in practise should only be used if you see a specific issue that you need to address.

In attack there's no real issue with your role and duty selection, although you may find giving either Rashford or Sancho a support duty instead to provide a little more variety and help them use (and find) space against those packed defences a bit better.  What I'm less keen on is telling them to play extremely wide as that might be overkill - you already have a winger staying wide so do you really want Rashford being so far out and less of a goal threat?  You are using an F9, so need someone attacking the space as the F9 drops deep.  It's also worth noting that increasing (or decreasing) passing length changes Tempo, so where you have increased passing length you've unwittingly increased Tempo - which you've then increased even more.  Increasing Tempo isn't always the best way of breaking down packed well organised defences and players are perfectly capable of deciding what Tempo they should use anyway.

If you want to understand how to put together tactics (which you clearly do) I suggest starting with a blank canvas and experiment.  Don't use many (any) team instructions at first, just watch how players behave, then add instructions in only if you want to achieve a certain style of play (eg., possession football) or to address a specific issue (such as more pressing).  Start from nothing and add things gradually to see their effect - that's much easier than starting with a gazillion instructions and trying to take things off .

[Conor O'Hare]

I kinda wished I had have asked these questions earlier as with 4 games to go, my team sits 4 points outside the top 4 and our next game is against Liverpool - I'll reflect on what you have said here and begin to construct something - I do want to play a solid at the back system with quick/swfit attacking movements when the time is right.  I appreciate the insight and help!

[Experienced Defender]

@Conor O'Hare If I had to single out one person on this forum from whom I've learned most about tactical creation and how simple it actually is, it would definitely be @herne79 (with all due respect to other great FM tacticians). So please follow his advice and you'll no doubt be on the right track 

[Conor O'Hare]

So, I took the advice and played a few games with no TIs and just put players into roles (although using CM(a), CM(S) and CM(D) and used the mentality be our changing factor and we've had great results - Stole a 1-0 win against City in a game where we played mainly on defensive although I swiped to attacking at various points (mainly when City were beginning to camp and overload us) and during these games I made changes to my player roles from changing role completely to changing just mentality....I then done the same against Fulham and we won the game 2-1 coming behind from 1-0 at half time...I changed mentality to play the first 20 minutes of the second half on very attacking.

Then I went to Arsenal and I played a very defensive 3 at the back system and I used PIs to try and set up a split block with my forward/defenders standing off but my 4 in mdf to do the pressing.  We created 4 CCC in this game and only conceded from a set piece but still managed to get a draw, and as I say we were the much better team.

Interestingly - although it feels like for the first time, the changes I'm making are actually affecting how we play and because my set up is so simple - just making a slight change like adjusting a role is turning games around for us - I don't feel like I'm in control, feel like  tactical fraud as I'm letting my players own skills decide how/if we win - but I suppose that's the best skill a manager can bring - allowing his team to just simply play football....I do worry about the upcoming Liverpool game I have in my save as I don't believe my letting the players to go out and do their own thing will work against such superior opposition but I also don't believe I have the tactical prowress to stop them if I try to construct a system.  I feel like I'm learning however and it's enjoyable (whilst it lasts)

[Experienced Defender]

@Conor O'Hare I am glad it finally began to work, just want to advise you to be very careful with any changes of the team mentality, because of 2 primary reasons:

1. the mentality affects literally all other instructions (including individual player mentalities), so any change of it is a lot more than just that

2. the mentality does not necessarily reflect your style of play (switching to an attacking mentality does not always mean playing attacking football, and vice versa - more defensive mentalities do not automatically make you defensively solid)