"We're back and we're ready for it all over again"

[Jaydenoren]

I made a post here nearly 3 months ago as i was struggling to survive in the prem with a massive overachieving wrexham. I posted it when we had 3 games to go and as expected, we went down. I continued on with the tactic however and nearly went straight back up the next season with 95 points and a playoff final defeat. I stopped with the save sometime after that but i came back a week ago to pick up where i left off. I decided to switch up tactics to something that is less demanding and would give us a chance to stay up if we go up. I went with a 4-2-4, changing to a counter attacking style of football. The season was a little worse this time, 82 points and another playoff final defeat. Continued onto next season and i later switched to a 4-4-2, which will be the latest tactic i have to show for you. We finished with 95 points again and 3rd time lucky we got promoted after winning in the playoff final. And now we are back to this league I've grown to despise.

Through 3 years where our finances were greatly improved, our squad seems better off than 3 years ago, rather than a league one team we look more like an established championship club but we still unexpectedly went up and we're still massive underdogs in most ways possible. We started off without making much changes and we lost the first 4, nothing too worrying but rather than waiting until gameweek 35 im going to ask for help now. Here is my tactic:

I'd prefer not to go through another relegation so i'll leave it up to the experts, tactical advice would be appreciated.

[Jack722]

I quite like your roles, so nothing to say there from me.

My advice for your TI’s depends on how you’re losing games. If you’re getting very low possession + conceding lots of chances, I’d advise you to tone it down a little. Considering that you’re a weak team, I wouldn’t be surprised if your positive mentality, coupled with pass into space, leads you to lose the ball needlessly. Especially as you’re playing a mid/lower block. This can put too much pressure onto the defence. The counter TI, will get your players to play risky passes, but only when the other team have overcommitted, so it will be safer and more profitable to do so. So I’d drop to balance and remove pass into space - only if you’re conceding too much and struggling to get a hold of the game.

distributing quickly as well as distributing to your playmaker also comes under the same point. Are you conceding lots from being pressed high? Because the quick distribution into the centre with a poor team could lead to the ball being lost with too much pressure being put onto the playmaker.

Also, unless there’s a solid reason, I wouldn’t focus play through the middle in a 442. Seeing as you can double up on the flanks, and have two players in the box for crosses. 

when your playing a home game against a team that you should win against, I’ll probably keep all the TI’s the same, apart from moving up your LOE and increasing the pressing slightly and using counter press. This can mean that when you lose the ball with the riskier passes, you should be able to win it back more quickly and not put yourself under too much needless pressure .

[Jaydenoren]

4 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

I quite like your roles, so nothing to say there from me.

My advice for your TI’s depends on how you’re losing games. If you’re getting very low possession + conceding lots of chances, I’d advise you to tone it down a little. Considering that you’re a weak team, I wouldn’t be surprised if your positive mentality, coupled with pass into space, leads you to lose the ball needlessly. Especially as you’re playing a mid/lower block. This can put too much pressure onto the defence. The counter TI, will get your players to play risky passes, but only when the other team have overcommitted, so it will be safer and more profitable to do so. So I’d drop to balance and remove pass into space - only if you’re conceding too much and struggling to get a hold of the game.

distributing quickly as well as distributing to your playmaker also comes under the same point. Are you conceding lots from being pressed high? Because the quick distribution into the centre with a poor team could lead to the ball being lost with too much pressure being put onto the playmaker.

Also, unless there’s a solid reason, I wouldn’t focus play through the middle in a 442. Seeing as you can double up on the flanks, and have two players in the box for crosses. 

when your playing a home game against a team that you should win against, I’ll probably keep all the TI’s the same, apart from moving up your LOE and increasing the pressing slightly and using counter press. This can mean that when you lose the ball with the riskier passes, you should be able to win it back more quickly and not put yourself under too much needless pressure .

thank you, i thought since the only playmaker was in the middle playing through the middle would mean everything goes through him and better quality passes would be more frequent, guess i was wrong. 

 

I would like to keep pass into space since my tactic is built around brown, who relies on his pace more than anything to get goals, last season he scored 28 league goals (most i've ever seen playing this game). Would keeping pass into space but lowering the mentality and removing the counter TI instead make the same effect?

[Jaydenoren]

Talk about an immediate effect   cheers mate

[Jack722]

31 minutes ago, Jaydenoren said:

thank you, i thought since the only playmaker was in the middle playing through the middle would mean everything goes through him and better quality passes would be more frequent, guess i was wrong. 

 

I would like to keep pass into space since my tactic is built around brown, who relies on his pace more than anything to get goals, last season he scored 28 league goals (most i've ever seen playing this game). Would keeping pass into space but lowering the mentality and removing the counter TI instead make the same effect?

I never said you’re wrong, and I’m no expert. With regards to the GK distribution, it could be that your DLP is playing like Pirlo and bossing it, but idk that. Maybe you should have a look at some recent games, and check some of your goal kicks, then see how your DLP does.

I absolutely see where you’re coming from with pass into space. I’ll just show you what may happen more than you think with a weak team that defends deep, but bare in mind that it’s probably worth checking how you’re losing the ball before making changes:

imsgine you’ve just been under intense pressure for 10 minutes, with Man City probing your box and looking dangerous. You finally win the   Ball back, but aren’t in a position to counter. Your left back then plays a risky pass into space to someone like brookes or Mackay, only for it to be easily intercepted and then you’re either caught out of position, or will be under pressure again for another 10 minutes, where your defence will eventually crack. In a non counter situation, in May be best to cautiously work the ball up to someone with good passing to play a through ball into your AF.

i certainly wouldn’t remove counter.

also, when I have a quick forward, I almost always look to hit early crosses. As with these crosses, pace + anticipation becomes more important than heading + jumping reach. You also have 2 players in the box to occupy both centre backs to make it even more dangerous.

[Atarin]

At first glance I'm not sure I'd have my forwards that way round. You've got your IW(s) moving into exactly the same space as the DLF(s) and swinging in a cross at your AF(a) who will be moving into one of the channels which might not be a great position to head the ball at goal. I can see what you're thinking but it just doesn't look right to me.

Personally I'd experiment with switching your strikers around and changing your left midfielder to a WPM(s) because they would drift inside and slide through balls into your advancing DLF. The AF's runs into the channel would be opening up space for the WPM to move inside which would bring your WPM, AF & DLF into better connectivity.

Just some thoughts.

[Jaydenoren]

3 hours ago, Atarin said:

At first glance I'm not sure I'd have my forwards that way round. You've got your IW(s) moving into exactly the same space as the DLF(s) and swinging in a cross at your AF(a) who will be moving into one of the channels which might not be a great position to head the ball at goal. I can see what you're thinking but it just doesn't look right to me.

Personally I'd experiment with switching your strikers around and changing your left midfielder to a WPM(s) because they would drift inside and slide through balls into your advancing DLF. The AF's runs into the channel would be opening up space for the WPM to move inside which would bring your WPM, AF & DLF into better connectivity.

Just some thoughts.

I get what you're saying but im trying to avoid having two playmakers so close to eachother with my DLP being on the left centre midfield role.

[Atarin]

1 hour ago, Jaydenoren said:

I get what you're saying but im trying to avoid having two playmakers so close to eachother with my DLP being on the left centre midfield role.

Fair enough. Unless your DLP is a far superior playmaker to your LM you could always consider changing your DLP to a CM(d). They come deep for the ball and start moves off but do it in more conservative way than a DLP. A DLP sets attacking moves away where as a CM(d) sets up the guy who sets the attacking moves away.

[summatsupeer]

I'd beware trying to make a tactic that counter attacks every time you get the ball which I guess is why you've added Pass Into Space, Distribute Quickly & to Playmaker.  You could end up giving the ball away quickly and putting yourself under more pressure rather than making teams win the ball back and leaving themselves open for a counter attack.  Do you really want every outfield player except your FB-De trying Risky Passes Often? By your roles+duties only the DLF-Su tries risky passes so having a deep player launching counter attack does make sense but nearly every player when your a weak side?

If your DLP is the main person you want to get the ball and take those risk i'd add it as a PI rather than TI.

Edited July 26, 2020 by summatsupeer

[Jaydenoren]

4 hours ago, Atarin said:

Fair enough. Unless your DLP is a far superior playmaker to your LM you could always consider changing your DLP to a CM(d). They come deep for the ball and start moves off but do it in more conservative way than a DLP. A DLP sets attacking moves away where as a CM(d) sets up the guy who sets the attacking moves away.

i bought both my DLP's to be playmakers but i also took note of their defensive attributes so thats a good shout

[Jaydenoren]

I tried everything it feels like but im not just getting the results needed to survive.

 

 

[Jack722]

47 minutes ago, Jaydenoren said:

I tried everything it feels like but im not just getting the results needed to survive.

 

 

What does your tactic look like now?

[Andebe]

How are you conceding goals? 

 

My suggestions would be:

- left FB -> FBsu
-  Switch the two strikers and maybe change the Advanced forward to Pressing Attack
- If the DLP are getting caught often you could change him to APLsu and the other midfielder to CMde

 

TIs

- Hit early crosses and play more direct
- Counter-press, hold shape
- maybe press more urgent 

[Experienced Defender]

23 hours ago, Jaydenoren said:

Your team instructions (except for the distribution to PM) generally suggest that you are looking to play a counter-attacking style. If so, a couple of tweaks to the roles and duties should suffice.

On the other hand, using a counter-attacking tactic as the only strategy is usually not a good idea even if you are a heavy underdog in the league. Because when you play against other underdogs - especially at home - you are likely to struggle (for obvious reasons).

Therefore, you should have a plan-B tactic in reserve, which would be very similar to the counter-attacking one (including formation-wise), with just a couple of minor tweaks making that small but important difference. 

[Jaydenoren]

1 hour ago, Jack722 said:

What does your tactic look like now?

Mainly this with little tweaks

 

But i'm thinking of switching to this soon

[Jaydenoren]

54 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

Your team instructions (except for the distribution to PM) generally suggest that you are looking to play a counter-attacking style. If so, a couple of tweaks to the roles and duties should suffice.

On the other hand, using a counter-attacking tactic as the only strategy is usually not a good idea even if you are a heavy underdog in the league. Because when you play against other underdogs - especially at home - you are likely to struggle (for obvious reasons).

Therefore, you should have a plan-B tactic in reserve, which would be very similar to the counter-attacking one (including formation-wise), with just a couple of minor tweaks making that small but important difference. 

What tweaks do you suggest for both tactics? Usually I did well against teams that were inferior to me back in the championship with the tactic but yeah it isn’t going great in the prem

[WelshMourinho]

Not to completely ruin your dreams here pal, but where are you predicted? Sometimes the tactic doesn't matter if the players just aren't up to the level.

 

Edited July 27, 2020 by Experienced Defender
bad language

[Jaydenoren]

15 hours ago, WelshMourinho said:

Not to completely ruin your dreams here pal, but where are you predicted? Sometimes the tactic doesn't matter if the players just aren't up to the level.

 

19th. however i finished 2 points off safety 3 seasons ago with a much much worse squad so i think i can do it this time

[Jack722]

8 hours ago, Jaydenoren said:

Mainly this with little tweaks

 

But i'm thinking of switching to this soon

I wouldn’t play with a lower dline on balanced.. I have nothing against it in theory, but when I’ve used it in the past, I get terrible results and get done by long shots. I’d change your defence to lower loe + standard dline. If your squad is above average In aggression / strength, I’d get stuck in. If they’re above average in workrate and teamwork, I’d press more urgently.

Did you look at how your playmaker was receiving the goal kicks?

id also have a tactic to use at home against other relegation candidates as was earlier said. All you’d need to do is maybe add pass into space, press more urgently, use standard pressing lines and move the mentality to positive.

at the end of the day, your team is predicted 19th, so I wouldn’t get too frustrated about losing. 
 

 

[Jaydenoren]

4 hours ago, Jack722 said:

I wouldn’t play with a lower dline on balanced.. I have nothing against it in theory, but when I’ve used it in the past, I get terrible results and get done by long shots. I’d change your defence to lower loe + standard dline. If your squad is above average In aggression / strength, I’d get stuck in. If they’re above average in workrate and teamwork, I’d press more urgently.

Did you look at how your playmaker was receiving the goal kicks?

id also have a tactic to use at home against other relegation candidates as was earlier said. All you’d need to do is maybe add pass into space, press more urgently, use standard pressing lines and move the mentality to positive.

at the end of the day, your team is predicted 19th, so I wouldn’t get too frustrated about losing. 
 

 

Ah my bad that was supposed to be lower LOE not lower D-line

 

As for the kick it to playmaker sometimes he got it short but other times it’ll be extremely risky goal kicks so I took it off

[Experienced Defender]

16 hours ago, Jaydenoren said:

What tweaks do you suggest for both tactics?

For example, if you want to use a DLP, I would rather have him on support duty in a counter-attack-minded tactic, so as to encourage him to be a bit more adventurous and forward-oriented with his passes. Which means that the other CM would be on defend (I personally prefer CMde over BWM because the former has better positional discipline in defense, but I am not going to claim that the BWM is necessarily a wrong choice). 

Another tweak I would always suggest for a simple counter tactic is to have both strikers on attack duties, but then change the RM's duty into support.

Basically something to this effect:

DLFat    AFat

IWsu    CMde    DLPsu    W(M)su

The next thing is your fullbacks. The LB as FB on attack makes sense, as would a WB on support (or automatic) as well. So you can experiment with the 2/3 to see which one works best for your team.

But the right FB might prove a bit too conservative as a FB on defend duty, given that there now are a holding CM and supporting winger in front of him. So there are basically 3 roles I personally would consider instead of the FB on defend duty (depending of course on the type of player) - FBsu, WBsu/auto and WBde. 

Instructions-wise, a combo of standard DL and lower LOE would be a far better choice than the other way around (just as @Jack722 suggested ), because you need more compactness, not less.

Given that you play on the Balanced mentality, you may either add the "Get stuck in" TI or tell the non-DLP holding CM to tackle harder (PI), unless you opt for the BWM who is already hard-coded to tackle and press aggressively.

In possession, early crosses do make sense in a counter tactic. Another instruction I would add - again in relation to your team mentality - is higher tempo.

In transition, I am not sure the Regroup would be necessary in every single match (if ever), because the setup is already defense-minded enough. I would also avoid distribution to playmaker, not just because he is already a ball-magnet but also due to the counter-attacking nature of the tactic. Distribute quickly (without any specific target) would make more sense IMHO.

The other (non-counter) tactic would then include only these couple of tweaks):

- default tempo instead of higher

- no early crosses

- standard LOE instead of lower

- no get stuck in/hard tackling

- no counter

and a small tweak on roles and duties:

DLFsu    AF

IWat      CMde    DLPsu    W(M)su

WBsu/au   CDde  CDde  FBsu/WBde/su

P.S: Depending on your DLF's attributes, you can also consider him as a target-man.

Always pay attention to player selection relative to the roles/duties and watch the matches to see if and which tweaks may be needed in certain situations.