Tactical Theorems and Frameworks '08

[Finknottle]

For what my thoughts are worth, here goes. The team and player instructions in a counter attacking setup, surely prohibit you from using, at least, the closing down OI. Otherwise your players will not stick to your original set up of low closing down.

Also, if you have tight marking set up as a team instruction, do you then need to repeat it in the OI instructions.

[Sinner264]

wwfan - excellent read, like all these years.

Still, I am wondering about forward runs in Attack and Control set-up; although my settings are a little bit different than those you suggester - and they work - still, even for your set-up it seems illogical to have full-backs set to often FR in Control set-up and only mixed FR in Attack?

Maybe it's the difference in the way you and I use those set-ups, but for me - having both full-backs running forward alot in Control does not help me control the game that much; indeed - it leaves too many open space for their reckless attacks or counter-attacks.

Cheers, and keep up the good work; I really enjoyed reading this from the beginning.

[faltering fullback]

firstly i would like to say thank-you wwwfan.

after reading and slightly digesting your theories i put them into action. i have not torn trees up or gone on massive winning and scoring streaks, it's more a case that i have begun to understand the mechanics of the 2d match engine and now seem to have a more stable and compact side.

it's not just the tactics side that has made a diference it's the whole management side off it. as you pointed out - it starts from the media stuff alway to the team talks and back again.

i do find i repeat myself alot in team talks but this does not bother my players. i keep forgetting they are not human and are only a load of numbers crunching about inside my pc.

once again thanks for getting me back into fm...... from a very old user.

[Jablome]

Originally posted by jaycar:

Good to know thanks

I've just started using the instructions to close down often CD's with low composure in the hope that it will panic them into a mistake.

I have had it work already, too. Also, had a great game by hard tackling a DR who also happened to up against my best player; my AML. So, I also set passing focus to left side. The results were 4-1 with AML being the star and their DR having a 4 rating.

At home, I will also always close down any Keeper with pace under 11 and show onto wrong foot. I have scored at least 3 goals by winning the footrace with this setting!

[wwfan]

I do tend to agree with oescus regarding OI, although Diaby had huge success in 07 by doing it to everyone. From memory, he was doing it less in 08 and more selectively. He's on a sabatical (lucky man) so I can't reach him to ask him for a while.

@ Sinner264: I only play Control based tactics when I am sure the AI will only attack with one or two players and not down the flanks, hence the high FWRs. It also has a deep line with loose marking, so the DCs have time to cover balls into the channels. Recently, I have been discovering that FWRS often plus RWB often for FBs is devastating in Control, even if the FBs have only average dribbling, because they are simply not challenged until they get into a danger area. They can run half the pitch with the ball before someone tries to tackle them.

@ faltering fullback: Glad that they have helped. Once you have the right mindset, FM08 becomes a superb game.

@ Jablome: I am finding it fascinating how OI instructions are beginning to change the nature of everyone's decision making and gaming experience. We are collecting a lot of extremely useful ideas in the thread about how to best employ them. Long may that continue. Thanks for the example.

Any more examples of OI working (and failing if you target the wrong man) would be great.

[Andrewbanny]

wwfan, i dont think this question has been asked on your thread but iv been doing some small test's concerning the weather condition's and how to maxamize a tactic for that day's match and my result's have defo improved.do you take the condition's into consideration and how important do you think it is to alter your tactic's based on the weather?

[wwfan]

In the opening post there is a link to a thread about muddy pitch adaption (under tempo), which is weather related. I very much recommend reading it.

However, as far as I know, nobody has made suggestions about playing on an icy pitch, or in dry conditons but with heavy wind. If you have any recommendations to add in that regard, they'd be very much appreciated.

[Jablome]

Another OI experience worth mentioning.

Just played a team where I noticed both strikers (who are pretty solid) had Bravery under 9 (8 and 6!). I had wanted to play a counter/easy tackling game, but this was too good to resist.

So, I decided to hard tackle both of them. I watched numerous times as my DCs buried them and they were totally ineffective. One was subbed for 2nd half, and both finished with a 6 rating. Imo, it was no coincidence.

Final: 5-2

[oey]

"FM needs ambiguity if it is to remain a simulation over and above an arcade game."

I think this epitomizes everything in FM. Excellent work wwfan, as always. And I really like the room you leave to adjust tactics according to players' attributes.

If I have understood well, you propose passing not to be linked to width and defensive line. Does this run counter to common knowledge and, to paraphrase the EU jargon, to "acquis footballaire"?

[Guest]

hi

great work , i read through it all and tryed to make tatics for each set , attack, ballanced,counter..... so i will see how it goes .

just one thing ,do you think you will ever upload some tatic sets from all the info on page one , just so i can see that ive done it correct???

or if anyone else who has used the frameworks on page 1 to maybe upload theres?

thanks

[Finknottle]

Originally posted by wwfan:

@ 0105301g: Looks fine to me. Check the Home/Away stats page and see if anyone is losing the ball to often. You could then tweak their settings individually.

@ rymdgubben: Use Specific Marking to ensure your players are marking all their midfielders (in the system you want). A little tedious to set-up, but it should help you enormously in defence.

@ Towerofpower: Can you spend an hour on it In 07 mixed supply undoubtedly favoured head. Not too sure about 08 I'm afraid. Don't have the requisite player to try it. If anyone else knows, please can you help? Thanks.

[@] Martyrium: [/b] I don't use tight martking at all in Control! In Counter the back six tight mark (not wingers), in Defend the back eight.

@ badbee: I tend to play in the lower leagues to start with, so choosing is a luxury I don't have. If I do have the money, I will try, first and foremost, to get the defence and MCd I need. If I don't concede, I am always going to be in with a chance of grabbing a win. Later in the game, I cherry pick the player type I want.

As tactics are a work in progress until you have played throughout the divisions, I can only offer my BSP Promotion Winning Set for perusal. It will not be suited for higher levels, but it will give a taster of what is required. CF is squad specific, so will need to be changed to fit your team. Passing will also need to be shortened at a higher level, and you will probably need more Free Roles.

BSP Promotion Winning Set

wwfan, I have downloaded the BSP set. I can't install them, though. I get a "windows can not open this file. It needs to know what to open it with". What do I need to install them? Thank you very glad.

[wwfan]

You just need to place them in My Documents/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 08/tactics.

You can then navigate to them through the tactics screen. Tactic/Edit Tactics.../Import [select/OK]. Once you do that for all five they will show in your tactics screen.

[Finknottle]

Isn't it marvellous how you always remember what to do only after someone tells you? Muchly glad, wwfan.

I can now see just how my Attacking, Balanced and Counter Attacking new tactics compare to yours. I have tried to follow as closely as I can, your guide of 13.02.08. Each time I read it, even I seem to learn a bit more.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by oey:

"FM needs ambiguity if it is to remain a simulation over and above an arcade game."

I think this epitomizes everything in FM. Excellent work wwfan, as always. And I really like the room you leave to adjust tactics according to players' attributes.

If I have understood well, you propose passing not to be linked to width and defensive line. Does this run counter to common knowledge and, to paraphrase the EU jargon, to "acquis footballaire"?

I have always played a staggered passing system, either to play direct balls from defence in Counter-attacking sytems (Defence longer than midifeld longer than attack) or to gett the MCs to dominate (defence and ttack shorter than MCs (mixed) to make them the fulcrum. Becasue that has always been my strategy, and has worked consistently well from FM06 thru FM08, the width-passing link never sat too comfortably with me.

[polegategavin]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Martyrium:

How much closing down would you recommend for wingers, CMa and CMd in the different versions of the tactics? Been testing a bit, but i has not worked that well yet.

Excellent post though

Wingers I tend to CD high, no matter what tactic, to make sure the opposition doesn't get uncontested space out wide.

Midfielders is player specific. As in the OP, for defensive tactics you need to be making sure the MCs face the opposing players before they get to the last third. Pace, aggression, stamina etc make these settings varied, dependent on the player. For more attacking tactics, you want to close down higher up the pitch, and thus should adjust accordingly.

Watch the 2d carefully (and tweak) until you see the MCs contesting balls in the areas you want them to do so. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I enjoy reading all your hints and tips.

On this question, would you do this by man marking or closing down a more defensive player of the opposition, i.e. instead of CD the AMC you would set them to CD the DMC. Is this what you meant?

[wwfan]

Closing down heavy across the board. However, you should target specific players and try to force them into playing hurried passes or losing the ball in the tackle. Targeting a DMC is one option, as is targeting a slow FB.

[Ackter]

One thing I've noticed with Passing Focus is that it can really change the way your team position themselves - for example, Down Both Flanks will encourage your strikers to drift into wide positions while Through the Middle will keep your strikers pretty much always in the centre.

I've also noticed that Creative Freedom has absolutely no influence over Passing Focus at all.

[Rashidi]

Originally posted by Ackter:

One thing I've noticed with Passing Focus is that it can really change the way your team position themselves - for example, Down Both Flanks will encourage your strikers to drift into wide positions while Through the Middle will keep your strikers pretty much always in the centre.

I've also noticed that Creative Freedom has absolutely no influence over Passing Focus at all.

I tend to agree, seems to me that Creative Freedom now appears to affect the flair attribute in good players encouraging them to do unexpected things, and adjusting CF seems to have the effect of maintaining/losing the overall shape of a team. When I play with low CF's across the board I tend to see my team keeping its shape very well, however I do not see as much different runs as I would like. Increasing CF seems to allow for more of that at the cost of losing your shape.

I believe very strongly that if you are the sort to have 2 kinds of formation, 1 defensive and another offensive, the differences will all lie in tempo, cf, dline and to some extent width.

[Bruin]

Hi all, as far as OI are concearned I always weaker foot & tight mark strikers & weaker foot & close down wide players (wing & FB's). Then i check for long shots on MC & composure on CB. Seems to work most times.

[Riziger]

Read through the OP and set-up Attack, Balance and Defend tactics.

I'm using Chelsea because I'm trying to understand the tactics system.

All my friendlies I won conceding none. First real game against Man Utd in the Community Shield.

I lost 4-2 the first time, using the balance tactic.

Re-loaded, lost 2-0, again using the balance tactic.

Re-loaded again and lost 4-2 again, this time chainging to the attack tactic.

What I noticed in the first 2 games was this. First half i tended to dominate, possesion and succesful passes wise.

2nd half, they would suddenly explode and get a lot of shots on target and eventually score 1 or 2.

The third time (attack), I had more shots on target in the first half but possesion and passing were fairly even. My cb made 2 horrendous mistakes and they scored 2 goals, but i managed to equalise 2-2.

2nd half, same story, they suddenly just played much better, scored 2 and were unlucky not to score more.

Is it possible that my team has not kicked into gear as the season has not really got underway? Or am I picking the wrong tactics etc?

I think I'm really bad at reading the 2d pitch but i notice that usually they switch to 4-3-2-1 for the better part of the 2nd half.

I'll continue trying out and see how the season progresses as this save is mainly to understand the tactics more.

Playing 8.0.1 btw.

[wwfan]

You'd best try specific marking against the 4-2-3-1. Such a formation often leaves the DMC unmarked and he dominates possession. Use the FCD to specific mark him and you should see a change in fortunes.

[Jablome]

Something to report:

My squad is loyal and fairly determined.

Sitting 4th in CH with huge home game v. 1st. They are definitely a more talented side. I decide to counter attack them. Take a 3-0 lead at half with fast ST hattrick!

So, at the half, I am nervous about the team talk. I decide that "thrilled" seems to be the best way to go under the circumstances: we are winning big in a huge game at home v. a superior opponent.

In doing so, I do not alter my tactic b/c we are countering them mercilessly and now they are going to push forward even more. I should get more chances.

Um...bad choice.

In fact, we get an early chance to make it 4. As I watch the ball sail into the stands horribly wide, I already know I have a problem.

Then, they pull 2 back quickly.

So, I change to SUS in 60th. They tie the game.

I decide to leave SUS b/c now I just want to get off the pitch with a draw.

Miraculously, we score on a 30 yard free kick in the 88th.

Utter relief and joy.

If I could play it again, I would have used "please" or "don't get careles." Probably, the latter. Should have gone with my gut. I really think "thrilled" is dangerous unless you are destroying a weaker team.

Hope there is some insight there.

[Dexter St Jock]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there Jablome. I would never choose "Thrilled" at halftime unless I was sure we'd see out the game. As you said, you were up against the table leaders so it was quite a dodgy decision to say you were thrilled with their performance as there was indeed 45 minutes left to play.

If I was up against an opponent from a division below me I would of probably chose that option however I'm quite cautious about praise to my players.

[Jablome]

AI is beating me 3-1 at their Home.

I am comfortably in first and was a 3-1 favorite. They are midtable and no where near as talented a side.

Yet, with a 2 goal lead in the last 1/3 of the game, they are using a long farrow attacking formation.

I have never seen that before.

Anyone seen this happen?

[bigdirtyjames]

Originally posted by Jablome:

Something to report:

My squad is loyal and fairly determined.

Sitting 4th in CH with huge home game v. 1st. They are definitely a more talented side. I decide to counter attack them. Take a 3-0 lead at half with fast ST hattrick!

So, at the half, I am nervous about the team talk. I decide that "thrilled" seems to be the best way to go under the circumstances: we are winning big in a huge game at home v. a superior opponent.

In doing so, I do not alter my tactic b/c we are countering them mercilessly and now they are going to push forward even more. I should get more chances.

Um...bad choice.

In fact, we get an early chance to make it 4. As I watch the ball sail into the stands horribly wide, I already know I have a problem.

Then, they pull 2 back quickly.

So, I change to SUS in 60th. They tie the game.

I decide to leave SUS b/c now I just want to get off the pitch with a draw.

Miraculously, we score on a 30 yard free kick in the 88th.

Utter relief and joy.

If I could play it again, I would have used "please" or "don't get careles." Probably, the latter. Should have gone with my gut. I really think "thrilled" is dangerous unless you are destroying a weaker team.

Hope there is some insight there.

I'm not saying i'm right, but if i'm winning by a good margin - I usually give players on a 7 "don't let performance drop" or "encourage" and give the players on 8 or more a "pleased". Anyone on a 6 or below gets the hook (but this is rarely the case when you're 3-0 up).

I have no complaints at all with that tbh.

[Riziger]

Originally posted by wwfan:

You'd best try specific marking against the 4-2-3-1. Such a formation often leaves the DMC unmarked and he dominates possession. Use the FCD to specific mark him and you should see a change in fortunes.

Alright, I'll keep that in mind in future games. Thx.

Would it be advisable for me to create another tactic set, a Chelsea style 4-1-2-2-1 and use it with the 4-4-2 when i'm using different players like how Grant and Benitez change their tactics when different players play?

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Jablome:

AI is beating me 3-1 at their Home.

I am comfortably in first and was a 3-1 favorite. They are midtable and no where near as talented a side.

Yet, with a 2 goal lead in the last 1/3 of the game, they are using a long farrow attacking formation.

I have never seen that before.

Anyone seen this happen?

On occasion. They are trying to finish you off. Every now and then I look to kill off a game in this manner, especially if I have overturned a first half lead. I work on the assumption their morale is shot and that I am more likely to see out the game by playing football than retreating and letting them attack me. Has to be at the right time though. If I had an early lead and they begin to play long-farrows I am much more likely to sit and counter for the last quarter of an hour.

As for the team talk I probably wouldn't have used thrilled. Great against a poor side and can turn a 3-0 into a five or six goal victory if the players relax and enjoy the rest of the game, but you need to keep the team focussed against a top four team.

I used to showboat between tactics in 06, but don't get the playing time any more to design multiple systems. I would like the idea of a 4-4-2 becoming a 4-5-1 at the right time though, by subbing a DMC for an FC. Might experiment with it. Two successive promotions with an average squad may mean some tactical dexterity is required unless I can get some quality in pre-season.

[Jablome]

wwfan: Thank you. Always helpful. Now, I am having a problem and looking for insight. This is regarding the infamous "re-ranking."

I am playing two teams. One is CH, the other was relegated to L1. Both have been doing extremely well. Third and 1st place, respectively.

So, I reach the 24th game or so with each, and a funny thing happens. My tactics stop working the way they did. And, not only that, the same 2d plays where a goal was previously forthcoming are suddenly saves, the DC buries my TM or ugly misses.

It is no fluke, b/c it pretty much happens in the exact same way with both teams at the same time.

Now, I have always been under the understanding that the engine "re-ranks" you with the idea that you are better than they had originally thought. This means you have to "step it up" offensively. I must be missing what needs to be done, b/c things are not working.

Or, that is not what is happening. It is the reverse. The AI is more aggressive and shutting down my play. They are attacking more instead of backing off.

For example, the L1 team is much better than just about every other team in the league. And, had been getting 3-1 or better odds in most Away games. Literally, from one game to the next those odds go down, or we aren't even the favorite against a mid-table team we outclass. Does that make any sense? Why did that happen? And, in game, they are much more aggressive.

So, I tried creating a "control" tactic, but it has not worked. I tried dropping down/bumping up tactics, but that doesn't work. For example, my Counter would regularly give me a 1 goal lead, and when the AI switched to Attack I would usually add to it b/c we got even more chances. Now, the same tactic seemingly against the same AI tactics suddenly concedes in the 2nd half exactly 1 minute in after I tell the squad not to get complacent.

The only thing that has ever really worked for me going back to '07 was changing tactic sets.

To me, this makes very little sense. And, it is really frustrating. So, I am hoping you can provide some insight on what to do.

Btw, I don't mean to rant. I want to understand what is happening and respond to it correctly.

[wwfan]

There's a double jeopardy going on. One is the likelihood that teams will change tactics against you, determined by relative reputations and recent form. The other is the weather. There is also the possibility that overconfidence is setting in and the team just isn't playing well. This can then lead to a drop in morale and a continued drop in form. I'm assuming the odds switch was at least after one bad result or against a side that was on a massive winning streak?

The tempo section of the OP links to a bad weather specifc post. That can help to minimise bad perfomance in poor conditions. You can also look to be a little more cautious for a few games to try and get some form back. PaulC spoke about sudden lapses in form. They happen in FM, just like in real life. The key is to ride them the best you can and to have faith that the tactics that saw you through will come good again. Both my last two seasons have seen magnificent winning runs, but also a series of dodgy results. When things are going against me I am at my most tactically concentrated. I focus on targetting specific players, look really hard at the stats to see who is playing badly so I can fix it, and pay great attention to man and media manageemnt to try and turn things around as quickly as possible. When things are going well then I can be a lot more relaxed and rely on my team to get the required result week in, week out.

[Lackey]

I have always played a staggered passing system, either to play direct balls from defence in Counter-attacking sytems (Defence longer than midifeld longer than attack) or to gett the MCs to dominate (defence and ttack shorter than MCs (mixed) to make them the fulcrum. Becasue that has always been my strategy, and has worked consistently well from FM06 thru FM08, the width-passing link never sat too comfortably with me.

I agree very much with this statement. Athough too much balkanization of the various sliders causes a team to use its cohesion, slavish consistency to linking too many of them prevents you from maximizing strengths - and adjusting to situations. I like playing wide with relatively short passing. That's never been a problem for me.

Also, I've noted that your new tactics seem to deviate more and more from a strict application of the RoO. Do you believe that the RoO - as a maxim rather than a philosophy - is starting to lose some viability? Or has it become a "base rule" that can be departed from without too much harm?

I've been using the RoO for a while now in my tactics - and comparing those you linked to here to my current batch yielded some interesting differences.

[Carter06]

This drives me crazy, I don't understand the numbers, for example, how do I know what 14 - 16 closing down is on the slider?

[rymdgubben]

Originally posted by Carter06:

This drives me crazy, I don't understand the numbers, for example, how do I know what 14 - 16 closing down is on the slider?

The extreme position to the left on the slider, is 1, the extreme to the right is 20. For example, lowest closing down (lowest own area), is 1, highest closing down (highest entire pitch), is 20.

[Carter06]

That explains thing, cheers mate.

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Lackey:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have always played a staggered passing system, either to play direct balls from defence in Counter-attacking sytems (Defence longer than midifeld longer than attack) or to gett the MCs to dominate (defence and ttack shorter than MCs (mixed) to make them the fulcrum. Becasue that has always been my strategy, and has worked consistently well from FM06 thru FM08, the width-passing link never sat too comfortably with me.

I agree very much with this statement. Athough too much balkanization of the various sliders causes a team to use its cohesion, slavish consistency to linking too many of them prevents you from maximizing strengths - and adjusting to situations. I like playing wide with relatively short passing. That's never been a problem for me.

Also, I've noted that your new tactics seem to deviate more and more from a strict application of the RoO. Do you believe that the RoO - as a maxim rather than a philosophy - is starting to lose some viability? Or has it become a "base rule" that can be departed from without too much harm?

I've been using the RoO for a while now in my tactics - and comparing those you linked to here to my current batch yielded some interesting differences. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mine are versions that evolved between 8.0.1 and 8.02 during Beta testing, so they still have a flat defence. Other people involved in writing this thread still use a pure RoO.

All the advice is possibilities rather than absolutes. Pure RoO is easy to explain and logical, so I stick with it and add provisos. However, experimentation may well bring better results.

[BeerofkaII]

Cheers wwfan! Brilliant article as always. It reinforced my idea of keeping individual mentalities pretty close to each other, in order to make the team attack and defend as a unit.

I started a 8.02 game with Leicester, and made 5 tactics according to your instructions (they were not yet available). First season went pretty well, 7th position in the league (proper teamtalks and set-piece tactics help), but there were some problems. More often than not my opposition had more possession, and usually more shots on goal, no matter what the situation was. 'Counter' seemed to be a quite self-defeating tactic against tougher opposition (don't yet know why, maybe because of 'easy tackling'?). Some of the problems may have been caused by the fact that I always used a target-man. Player quality certainly caused.

With that in mind for the second season, and the team reinforced with meagre money, I made a 5-4-1 away-tactic, based on '"Balanced', with the tempo of 10, wingers with higher mentality than the middle three and "bended" farrows, counter-attack on, narrow width, passing through the middle and target man distributed to the feet. Defensive line is at 7. CF is 5 for all.

For home I made a tactic based on 'Attack'. Width narrow, short passing, tempo at 5, passing through the middle, target man distribution to the feet. Otherwise no changes.

For the first 16 games of the second season, I have mainly used these two tactics and lost only one game. That was a 0-1 away defeat against Everton in the league cup. Their keeper Howard was the man of the match (they outshot us, but still). The last five have been all wins, and the team is in the first position at the moment. There's definite improvement in possession and shots on goal ratio.

At the moment it seems I need only these two tactics instead of five. They were inspired by your article anyhow, so I thank you!

[Jablome]

Originally posted by wwfan:

There's a double jeopardy going on. One is the likelihood that teams will change tactics against you, determined by relative reputations and recent form. The other is the weather. There is also the possibility that overconfidence is setting in and the team just isn't playing well. This can then lead to a drop in morale and a continued drop in form. I'm assuming the odds switch was at least after one bad result or against a side that was on a massive winning streak?

The tempo section of the OP links to a bad weather specifc post. That can help to minimise bad perfomance in poor conditions. You can also look to be a little more cautious for a few games to try and get some form back. PaulC spoke about sudden lapses in form. They happen in FM, just like in real life. The key is to ride them the best you can and to have faith that the tactics that saw you through will come good again. Both my last two seasons have seen magnificent winning runs, but also a series of dodgy results. When things are going against me I am at my most tactically concentrated. I focus on targetting specific players, look really hard at the stats to see who is playing badly so I can fix it, and pay great attention to man and media manageemnt to try and turn things around as quickly as possible. When things are going well then I can be a lot more relaxed and rely on my team to get the required result week in, week out.

Yes, the odds switched after a bad result. Instantaneously. But, for both teams, moral remained very high. 4 games later, still has not dipped. Also, got back to winning ways.

Just got puzzled b/c it happened to both teams pretty much at the same time during the season.

I went from coasting with both teams using Attack at Home to mightly struggling and having to back off to a Balanced formation.

[Dexter St Jock]

Finally got a decent 4-4-2 going

Yeah sure it's a friendly but I still think it's impressive. Obviously playing with Liverpool I've had to shorten the passing a bit but in pre-season I always play balanced with short passing for wingers/strikers/goalkeeper but with mixed for the MC's and defenders. I think with normal tempo (12) it works best seeing as the MC's passing is mixed so either a longer ball or short pass would be ok.

I do recommend slow tempo and short passing for MC's in more attacking framworks but only if you're MC's are good passers which tbh they should be

[wwfan]

Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

Finally got a decent 4-4-2 going

Yeah sure it's a friendly but I still think it's impressive. Obviously playing with Liverpool I've had to shorten the passing a bit but in pre-season I always play balanced with short passing for wingers/strikers/goalkeeper but with mixed for the MC's and defenders. I think with normal tempo (12) it works best seeing as the MC's passing is mixed so either a longer ball or short pass would be ok.

I do recommend slow tempo and short passing for MC's in more attacking framworks but only if you're MC's are good passers which tbh they should be

Tis impressive. Has the form continued?

@ Jablome: It is great when you work your way through a bad run of form. I have gone into a few away games starting with Defend recently, as I couldn't buy an away win (in one game due to a weird tactical bug in my current version of Counter which had my MCa Specific Marking the FC). I played under the assumption that if I could hold out for 30 mins they would be beginning to get frustrated and I could switch to Counter. I scored 3 mins after switching. returned to Defend for first 15 mins of second half on the assumption they would come out fired up. Went back to Counter and scored immediately again. That one match sent my morale sky high and my team back to winning ways.

[gunnerfan]

Originally posted by Jablome:

AI is beating me 3-1 at their Home.

I am comfortably in first and was a 3-1 favorite. They are midtable and no where near as talented a side.

Yet, with a 2 goal lead in the last 1/3 of the game, they are using a long farrow attacking formation.

I have never seen that before.

Anyone seen this happen?

Yes, I actually had that happen to me last night. I'm playing as Farsley Celtic in the BSP, have them in 3rd place, four points out of 1st, playing against a side in 10th place. I was down 2 goals on the road, and they looked like they were really trying to lay it on.

I've also used this approach myself, recently, so it isn't a matter of a "secret weapon of the Evil AI". Playing at home against a side that was a few places behind me in the table, but had very strong players (I've found that my slow backs are often cannon fodder for the swift strikers I face week in and week out), I played an aggressive, counterattacking tactic and took a 3-0 lead into the second half. I then made the mistake of going more defensive, and wound up sweating out a 4-3 win.

I'm convinced maintaining a more aggressive approach would have seen me out to a comfortable win. I also am convinced (though I don't yet have the data to prove it) that this will not always work the same way. I think it depends on the personalities of the two teams and their relative morale at the time of the match.

[Dexter St Jock]

Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

Finally got a decent 4-4-2 going

Yeah sure it's a friendly but I still think it's impressive. Obviously playing with Liverpool I've had to shorten the passing a bit but in pre-season I always play balanced with short passing for wingers/strikers/goalkeeper but with mixed for the MC's and defenders. I think with normal tempo (12) it works best seeing as the MC's passing is mixed so either a longer ball or short pass would be ok.

I do recommend slow tempo and short passing for MC's in more attacking framworks but only if you're MC's are good passers which tbh they should be

Tis impressive. Has the form continued?

@ Jablome: It is great when you work your way through a bad run of form. I have gone into a few away games starting with Defend recently, as I couldn't buy an away win (in one game due to a weird tactical bug in my current version of Counter which had my MCa Specific Marking the FC). I played under the assumption that if I could hold out for 30 mins they would be beginning to get frustrated and I could switch to Counter. I scored 3 mins after switching. returned to Defend for first 15 mins of second half on the assumption they would come out fired up. Went back to Counter and scored immediately again. That one match sent my morale sky high and my team back to winning ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In pre-season yes, I then had a Community Shield match against Arsenal where I dominated but an Adebayor defelected shot went past Carson and despite going control from the 60th minute we couldn't penetrate the Arsenal goal.

After that I won 2-0 away to Sunderland with a Balanced tactic which I have dubbed Counter Attacking where I tick counter attack and get the fullbacks to hold up the ball. Worked a treat.

Then played against Tottenham where it took 'til the 84th minute to score through Torres but played counter the last mins and saw out the win. Then my team was really fired against Blackburn and won 4-0 after starting with Attacking, Blackburn went to ultra defensive so I switched to Control and then took a 3rd and fourth.

[Dexter St Jock]

Just about to play against Man Utd away and I would have to go with Counter. Now I would maybe need a little advice. Would you say having all but wingers and strikers should be on direct passing with quick tempo? It makes the most sense to me but reading the frameworks you gave the example that Utd would play slow tempo away to Barcelona. I fail to see if my players would be able to pull that off away to such a good opposition. My team atm is Carson; Alves, Alexis, Agger, Riise; Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano, Babel; Torres, Milito.

[Dexter St Jock]

And indeed it's a tactical triumph

Torres terrorized the Man Utd defence and could of easily gotten 3-4 goals in this match. Subbed Milito for Crouch around the 80th minute mark and he scored and easy goal when Man Utd went on the attack. Gerrard almost humiliated United when he ran into the box and powered a shot towards the bar.

[Jablome]

Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wwfan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dexter St Jock:

Finally got a decent 4-4-2 going

Yeah sure it's a friendly but I still think it's impressive. Obviously playing with Liverpool I've had to shorten the passing a bit but in pre-season I always play balanced with short passing for wingers/strikers/goalkeeper but with mixed for the MC's and defenders. I think with normal tempo (12) it works best seeing as the MC's passing is mixed so either a longer ball or short pass would be ok.

I do recommend slow tempo and short passing for MC's in more attacking framworks but only if you're MC's are good passers which tbh they should be

Tis impressive. Has the form continued?

@ Jablome: It is great when you work your way through a bad run of form. I have gone into a few away games starting with Defend recently, as I couldn't buy an away win (in one game due to a weird tactical bug in my current version of Counter which had my MCa Specific Marking the FC). I played under the assumption that if I could hold out for 30 mins they would be beginning to get frustrated and I could switch to Counter. I scored 3 mins after switching. returned to Defend for first 15 mins of second half on the assumption they would come out fired up. Went back to Counter and scored immediately again. That one match sent my morale sky high and my team back to winning ways. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In pre-season yes, I then had a Community Shield match against Arsenal where I dominated but an Adebayor defelected shot went past Carson and despite going control from the 60th minute we couldn't penetrate the Arsenal goal.

After that I won 2-0 away to Sunderland with a Balanced tactic which I have dubbed Counter Attacking where I tick counter attack and get the fullbacks to hold up the ball. Worked a treat.

Then played against Tottenham where it took 'til the 84th minute to score through Torres but played counter the last mins and saw out the win. Then my team was really fired against Blackburn and won 4-0 after starting with Attacking, Blackburn went to ultra defensive so I switched to Control and then took a 3rd and fourth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, it has come back together for one of the sides to the tune of 4 goals in 3 straight games and 4 consecutive wins. And, it started by getting a late 2-1 comeback win. Interestingly, that was the first time I saw the game end team talk option "great comeback." So, I used it. They are well ahead in L1 and should win the league.

With the other team, it has been a tougher go with away form still troubling. However, it did turn around at home with the same type of down a goal at the half 2-1 comeback and same team talk. Home form is 3 straight wins since.

Here is what I think prompted the change. Prior to having these tactics set up, I had been using one tactic that was effective, but had the annoying problem of needing constant in-game tweaking. Once I had my version of the TTF tactic sets I just started using them with one as an experiment. But, I was doing so well that I put them into both sides. In doing so, I got away from the occasional in-game tinker and was instead changing from Balance to Counter, etc.

Now, I decided to pay a little more attention b/c I felt that Balance would be working, but I went a goal down. What was going on? Too much time on the ball? Increase tempo a notch or two and maybe lower time wasting a tiny bit. Crosses into the box getting caught in the turf? Increase the winger's passing to more direct. You get the idea. I started to tinker again before completely abandoning a tactic.

I think it has worked. Particularly with Balance where I would tweak a little and see results. And, it reminded me that no tactic set is going to be the end all. You have to look at what your team is doing. Simple things like is your free kick specialist hurt, or is your ST's moral down can really affect performance.

For example, I am sure I won one of those games b/c I took off my TM and replaced him with a 2nd fast striker and set FWD to often. Both goals were over the top breakaways. One to each fast ST.

Now, I need to get into the Prem! Twelve games left in 4th place...

[wwfan]

I'm intrigued withthe way this TT&F is going. Previous versions were full of questions about how to do this and how to do that. This one seems to finally become what I always wanted it to be, a conceptual system of how to play FM, via which people could design their own tactical sets and learn to use them:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>

<LI>With constatnt attention to your own strengths/weaknesses

<LI>With constant attention to the opposition strengths/weaknesses

<LI>With constant attention to what is/is not working in any given match

<LI>In a logical manner depending on the quality of the opposition

... and to know what to change/tweak, when to change/tweak it and why you are doing it.

The satisfaction of knowing why you won and being able to pinpoint the exact tactical change that gave you the advantage is a great satisfaction indeed.

[James8]

I'm intrigued with the way this TT&F is going. Previous versions were full of questions about how to do this and how to do that.

wwfan,

As if on purpose, although I assure you it's not, I would very much like to hear your defensive approach for the following when using a back 4 formation...

1) Marking an opposition lone striker

2) Marking an opposition lone striker and an AMC operating behind

For the lone striker, I always try to specific man mark with one of my DCs and set the second DC to zonal marking as cover. Additionally, I will use OI to tight mark an aerial threat and close down often a pacey threat.

The scenario when facing an AMC operating behind a lone striker has caused me many problems. I am never sure whether to specific mark with my spare DC (the covering one for the lone striker) or my MCd/DMC. Often I see the AMC sprinting through my defensive line into the box to shoot.

Furthermore, I would really like to know whether the approach you use changes for a Defend framework or an Attack framework, beyond the man-tight / zonal-loose approaches which you have detailed in your OP?

On numerous occasions I have been unable to prevent goals when facing these types of formation. I would be grateful if you had time to offer your approach. This thread has been a superb read, many thanks for your efforts so far - long may they continue.

[Cleon]

The scenario when facing an AMC operating behind a lone striker has caused me many problems. I am never sure whether to specific mark with my spare DC (the covering one for the lone striker) or my MCd/DMC. Often I see the AMC sprinting through my defensive line into the box to shoot.

I tend to let my DMC man mark the AMC and limit his space on the ball.9/10 this works fine, but the DMC needs to be decent for it to be succesful.

[saab693]

hi wwfan.

I've set up the tactics as best I can for my team. I have created all 5 to give me the full range of option (Attack,Balanced,Counter,Control,Defend).

I have saved my game and decided to test the tactics out on a fairly difficult away game. I'm 4th, playing 6th.

Scout Report

I decided to start with the Counter tactic as they were clear favourites.

17 mins

I checked the match stats as they were having the most of the play on the 2D display. As I suspected, they were dominating the possession and passing percentage stats. I switched to my Balanced tactic to try and calm things down.

Half Time Match Stats

I had managed to gain a slight advantage in both departments. Very few shots on goal however. I gave the 'you can win this' team talk couples with 'pleased' and 'you have faith' where I thought appropriate.

Team Talk

We scored a penalty in the 62 min. Match stats were still showing advantages to us in both possession and pass completion so I kept the same tactic.

85th min - they equalize from a free kick. Match stats still show advantages so I keep the same tactic.

91st min - They score from inside our penalty area. Again, stats show we have better possession and pass completion rate.

Full Time Match Stats

Full Time Player Stats

PKM

Here are a few tactical details

Formation

Counter Team Instructions

Balanced Team Instructions

I am just interested to see how you'd have approached the game differently. I think I followed a fairly logical thought process but do let me know if I'm wrong! If I can provide any further details then please do say.

Cheers

[gunnerfan]

One of the things I've noticed is that a former (presumed) requirement - tactical consistency - seems to have become of much more relative value. In my first season at Farsley Celtic, I have found myself changing tactics almost from match to match, mostly to deal with difficult matchup problems posed by my side's painful lack of pace.

This has been reflected in the media comments about me, in which I have on more than one occasion been referred to as "Tinkerman". My framework has varied from a flat-back, flat-mid 4-4-2 to a flat-back, to a diamond mid 4-4-2 to sweeper versions of either to a sweeper version of a 5-3-2, all with varying Opponent instructions based on specific tactical challenges posed by the opponent at the time.

There is a trade-off in all of this - it will take your team longer to feel really comfortable with one another, and your ass man will likely complain that the team still hasn't jelled. My reaction is, "Well, okay. That's life." My mark in Tactical Consistency has dropped from 10 to 9. But this is a much more realistic situation.

I've been a hockey fan for many, many years. Back in the early 1980s, the NY Rangers were coached by Fred Shero, who had won two Stanley Cups with the Philadelphia Flyers. Shero was famous for having a "system" of coaching at a time when such things were not normally done in the NHL. I remember one of the Ranger players in an interview (about two months into the season) saying that Shero had begun teaching the system in training camp. "At that point," he said, "we were deep in our own zone; now, we're out around our blue line."

Teaching tactical systems takes times, and the important thing about tactical consistency is that the consistency be within the system - the way teams play, they way they handle individual challenges, and the way they make decisions on the pitch. What we have typically considered "tactics" within FM are decisions that can and should change as situations change.

[gunnerfan]

This approach, btw, will make it virtually impossible to be able to say, "here is a tactic that always works". The best you can hope for is, "here is a system that works assuming that you have backs with X amount of pace, a strong holding midfielder who can pass well, a very fast attacking central midfielder with a good long shot, etc".

[gunnerfan]

Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm at work and this is kind of a stream of consciousness thing.

More and more, I think our tactical discussions should address questions like, "How do I cope with the fact that my back line is too slow to cope with strikers with excellent pace?" or "What's the best way to disrupt the attack of an opponent whose midfield moves the ball very well?"