Tactical IQ = -2

[Mr_Demus]

Once again, I ask for your tactical support.

 

I have just started my third season with AGF in the Danish Superliga. I have worked towards a possession based tactics via training and matches, and buying players who fit into this way of play. I have so far managed expectations sort of, but something feels off, so I ask for your guidance.

I have played like this for the first two seasons.

PI's: Close down more applied to ST, AMR, AML and MCR

Occasional tweaks:

-Wider attacking width (this seemed to take my AMR and AML out of the game)

-Counter (applied when I had a late lead)

-Waste time more (same as above)

 

I don't score a lot of goals, and often my ST, AML and to a lesser extent the MCR has been very inefficient/anonymous. No matter who I played there. So, I have considered tweaking the setup a bit.

What I have considered:

-Changing the MEZ A to CM A

-Adding the sit narrower PI to the AML

-Removing "Be more expressive" and "Work ball into box"

Obviously not all of them at once.

 

My teams stats are like this:

 

What kind of tweaks would you guys suggest, keeping in mind, that I would like to play a possession with purpose type of game.

The transfer window is still open, so please suggest role changes as well. 

 

Players:

Spoiler

 

Edited July 16, 2020 by Mr_Demus

[crusadertsar]

Your tactic doesn't look too bad and is well balanced. But are you sure your players are up for it? Possession with a purpose is a very demanding system that often is best used by a very good top 6 team. Make sure your players have good levels of technique, passing, first touch, composure, teamwork, decisions and balance among other attributes. Also the attackers need to have great off the ball and anticipation to find open space better because the nature of the system will push high and compress available space.

Edited July 13, 2020 by crusadertsar

[Mr_Demus]

59 minutes ago, crusadertsar said:

Your tactic doesn't look too bad and is well balanced. But are you sure your players are up for it? Possession with a purpose is a very demanding system that often is best used by a very good top 6 team. Make sure your players have good levels of technique, passing, first touch, composure, teamwork, decisions and balance among other attributes. Also the attackers need to have great off the ball and anticipation to find open space better because the nature of the system will push high and compress available space.

As I said, it has been working sort of, but I am keen to hear, what you would change?

I want to keep hold of the ball, but still do something with it. Possession for the sake of possession is not for me.

[crusadertsar]

13 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

As I said, it has been working sort of, but I am keen to hear, what you would change?

I want to keep hold of the ball, but still do something with it. Possession for the sake of possession is not for me.

Again I don't see anything inherently wrong with your roles and instructions. I've used similar system to great effect with Sociedad in the past. But like I said the problem could be with your players and their attributes. Maybe you could post some screens on your attackers and midfielders. If they are not strong enough in the key attributes then they might be losing the ball in key areas when facing strong opposition resistance.

[Mr_Demus]

1 minute ago, crusadertsar said:

Again I don't see anything inherently wrong with your roles and instructions. I've used similar system to great effect with Sociedad in the past. But like I said the problem could be with your players and their attributes. Maybe you could post some screens on your attackers and midfielders. If they are not strong enough in the key attributes then they might be losing the ball in key areas when facing strong opposition resistance.

That may be an issue.

I have played some games with the WBIB and BME TI's removed, but that seemed to take away any attacking intent from my team.

[Experienced Defender]

3 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

 

The tactic itself looks good, but you might not have players who are good enough to execute it in the right way.

[Mr_Demus]

14 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

The tactic itself looks good, but you might not have players who are good enough to execute it in the right way.

I know that that might be an issue. Do you have any suggestions on how to make it more suitable for lesser teams, but still keep it as a possession with purpose tactic?

[Mr_Demus]

17 hours ago, crusadertsar said:

Again I don't see anything inherently wrong with your roles and instructions. I've used similar system to great effect with Sociedad in the past. But like I said the problem could be with your players and their attributes. Maybe you could post some screens on your attackers and midfielders. If they are not strong enough in the key attributes then they might be losing the ball in key areas when facing strong opposition resistance.

When I have the game open, I can post screens of my starters. I guess ST, AML, AMR and MCR?

[Djuicer]

20 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

When I have the game open, I can post screens of my starters. I guess ST, AML, AMR and MCR?

That would be great.
Otherwise the tactic seems fine. Although I think the midfield could be more mobile? two out of three has hold position hard coded. That might inluence the attacking play negatively.

[Mr_Demus]

3 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

That would be great.
Otherwise the tactic seems fine. Although I think the midfield could be more mobile? two out of three has hold position hard coded. That might inluence the attacking play negatively.

Ah, that is interesting. I am most keen on switching the MEZ A. Perhaps into CM A?

 

Zach Duncan - has been playing as MEZ A

 

Tochi Chukwuani - has been playing as either MEZ A or IF S

 

Magnus Kaastrup - has been playing as IF S

 

Gift Links - has been playing as IW S

 

Oliver Poulsen - has been playing as DLF A 

 

Dany Mota - has been used in all 3 forward positions as a sub

[Djuicer]

For me, some of the players are played in wrong roles. Comes deep for example is in most cases best for creators, who needs to see a lot of the ball. Additionally you need players with play one-twos and maybe some with moves into channels, get further forward or gets into opposition area.
And whats up with the Mota hate? he is a really good DLF. Poulsen is a prospect but not close to Motas level (Imo).

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Mr_Demus said:

Do you have any suggestions on how to make it more suitable for lesser teams, but still keep it as a possession with purpose tactic?

For example:

DLFat

IFsu                              Wsu

DLPsu      CMat

Ade

FBat    CDco   CDde   WBaut

SKsu

Positive, shorter passing / distribute to CBs and FBs / higher DL + split block

[Mr_Demus]

19 minutes ago, Djuicer said:

For me, some of the players are played in wrong roles. Comes deep for example is in most cases best for creators, who needs to see a lot of the ball. Additionally you need players with play one-twos and maybe some with moves into channels, get further forward or gets into opposition area.
And whats up with the Mota hate? he is a really good DLF. Poulsen is a prospect but not close to Motas level (Imo).

He has played terribly. Simple as that. Brought him in in the January window, but didn't score, and played awfully. Needed results, and was desperate so tried Poulsen, who managed to score and play well.

[Mr_Demus]

13 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

For example:

DLFat

IFsu                              Wsu

DLPsu      CMat

Ade

FBat    CDco   CDde   WBaut

SKsu

Positive, shorter passing / distribute to CBs and FBs / higher DL + split block

Not too far away from what I have now, so looks like a really good shout. Thanks.

[Mr_Demus]

I have played some matches now (6 I think) with @Experienced Defender's recommended tactic. It's been working fairly well. We have more possession and fewer counter attacks against us. We have less chances, but they seem to be of higher quality, as we score roughly the same amount of goals.

 

The IF is completely invisible though. I have rotated a lot due to a packed schedule, and no matter who I put there, he will not perform. 

I have now tried switching him to IW S instead.

[Mr_Demus]

Okay...please disregard the previous "it's been working fairly well" as my team has now totally collapsed. After a rather decent start, we simply don't create anything remotely dangerous. We have scored in 2 of the last 7 games. 1 of them was against a non league opponent in the cup.

[Mr_Demus]

Oh, and if you disregard one good game and the cup game, I have had 4 players with an average rating above 7 in the remaining 5 matches.

 

I seriously do not know what is happening, or what to do...

[summatsupeer]

On 13/07/2020 at 18:46, Mr_Demus said:

I don't score a lot of goals, and often my ST, AML and to a lesser extent the MCR has been very inefficient/anonymous. No matter who I played there. So, I have considered tweaking the setup a bit.

I'm going to focus on this bit. 

MEZ-At with a WB-Su and a IW-Su are all quite wide and wing heavy.  On the other flank FB-At is getting up past the IF-Su whilst the DLP-Su will be quite deep and typically behind the ball.  These two things make me think there's a complete lack of presence around the edge of the opposition area which for a "possession" system is questionable especially when the ST is on attack duty so will only occasionally use that area.  I think this is also why when you go wider it hurts the tactic even more as it gets even more wing heavy and lacks presence centrally.  Yes you want some risk taking so its not just "keep ball" but I just don't like the movement patterns.

I'm not a fan of double pivot 4141 DM Wides, especially with the ST on attack duty, just feels like stretching the center of your team out and leaving too much work for the most attacking CM.  Lots of options, just not sure what is right for your team and how well they fit the style you want as there mentals are typically their weakest area.

Some thoughts on possible areas to change:

• More support centrally for forward. Should he drop to support so closer to midfielders or a wide forward go to attack duty to help fast attack moves?
• Should the double pivot be removed to get more central support to the ST?  If so then can both FBs be so forward thinking?
• Would less width help this so more close passing options?

[Mr_Demus]

17 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm going to focus on this bit. 

MEZ-At with a WB-Su and a IW-Su are all quite wide and wing heavy.  On the other flank FB-At is getting up past the IF-Su whilst the DLP-Su will be quite deep and typically behind the ball.  These two things make me think there's a complete lack of presence around the edge of the opposition area which for a "possession" system is questionable especially when the ST is on attack duty so will only occasionally use that area.  I think this is also why when you go wider it hurts the tactic even more as it gets even more wing heavy and lacks presence centrally.  Yes you want some risk taking so its not just "keep ball" but I just don't like the movement patterns.

I'm not a fan of double pivot 4141 DM Wides, especially with the ST on attack duty, just feels like stretching the center of your team out and leaving too much work for the most attacking CM.  Lots of options, just not sure what is right for your team and how well they fit the style you want as there mentals are typically their weakest area.

Some thoughts on possible areas to change:

• More support centrally for forward. Should he drop to support so closer to midfielders or a wide forward go to attack duty to help fast attack moves?
• Should the double pivot be removed to get more central support to the ST?  If so then can both FBs be so forward thinking?
• Would less width help this so more close passing options?

Okay, that makes sense. By double pivot do you mean DLP MEZ combo in CM? What would be a change to that? MEZ into CM A?

Wouldn't it be very ineffective to have all my forwards on support duty?

 

I have just reverted back to the starting point as, although far from perfect, it is the way that has worked the best for me so far.

 

 

[herne79]

Possession is a two sided coin.  On one side you have a strategy to keep the ball once you have it.  On the flip side is winning the ball back quickly once you lose it.

I'm not really seeing anything to help you win the ball back quickly.  Sort that side of things out and you could afford to loosen things up and be more aggressive when in possession - thus you can achieve possession with intent:  "possession" - win the ball back quickly; "intent" - aggressive in attack.  Just don't over do the aggression part otherwise you leave yourself open to counter attacks.  Use your players and their Traits to your advantage, rather than just their roles & duties. - combine it all.

[summatsupeer]

54 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

Okay, that makes sense. By double pivot do you mean DLP MEZ combo in CM? What would be a change to that? MEZ into CM A?

Double Pivot are two holding midfielders whilst the rest of the team move around them.  In your tactic thats the HB and DLP.

 

54 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

Wouldn't it be very ineffective to have all my forwards on support duty?

Depends on the roles, the rest of the setup and of course the players.  If your players best attributes are there quickness whilst there mental attributes are there weakest then slower more patient attacks won't work as well, for those kind of players you need earlier quicker attacks.

54 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

I have just reverted back to the starting point as, although far from perfect, it is the way that has worked the best for me so far.

Cool, just try to plan your movement patterns especially considering the formation.  Naturally will have 3 forwards so should a CM be trying to bomb forward so much?    WB + MEZ bombing forward and wide on same flank?  Double pivot holding deep but who's supporting the attack centrally.  Plus @herne79 just raised a good point about when you don't have the ball.  Whilst you have more urgent pressing PI and Higher D-Line the formation is quite defensive with the DM.  Is there a reason your not being more aggressive defensively to win the ball?

[yonko]

I would suggest changing the DLP to AP on Support. Use WB on Support behind the IF but add Overlap on the left - this will bring down the mentality of the IF down to Attacking and he will link up better with the AP. And you will still get the overlap on that side. 

I would try the other midfielder as Mez on Support and see how that goes. You need to create more options and support around the box.

I think you need to add some instructions to win the ball back as Herne said. Counter-Press and High LOE to go along with the High D-Line. Keep the split block for now and maybe add the AP to it as well. 

As for the players, aim to have ones with 12s and 13s for your level in these attributes:

- first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, decision, off the ball, teamwork, vision (The AP needs those the most - all of them. He's the one to set the tone for the whole team)

You also need dribbling for IF and IW, finishing for DLF and IF. 

[Mr_Demus]

Could I perhaps make it more attacking and still keep tight at the back, if I converted the DMC into an AMC?

Something along the lines of this:

[Mr_Demus]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

I would suggest changing the DLP to AP on Support. Use WB on Support behind the IF but add Overlap on the left - this will bring down the mentality of the IF down to Attacking and he will link up better with the AP. And you will still get the overlap on that side. 

I would try the other midfielder as Mez on Support and see how that goes. You need to create more options and support around the box.

I think you need to add some instructions to win the ball back as Herne said. Counter-Press and High LOE to go along with the High D-Line. Keep the split block for now and maybe add the AP to it as well. 

As for the players, aim to have ones with 12s and 13s for your level in these attributes:

- first touch, passing, technique, anticipation, composure, decision, off the ball, teamwork, vision (The AP needs those the most - all of them. He's the one to set the tone for the whole team)

You also need dribbling for IF and IW, finishing for DLF and IF. 

Like this?

Should I still keep the split block?

 

I just looked at the attributes of my squad. Most of my players have 12 or 13 for those attributes. The worst one is Off The Ball, but all of my players still have 10+.

[Mr_Demus]

If I post screens of my entire squad, would people be willing/able to help me build something that works?

[Mr_Demus]

I have edited my first team players into a spoiler in the opening post.

If anyone wants to have a go at some tactics that will fit my players. Preferably possession based, but honestly I don't even care anymore. I just want something that works with my current players.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

Like this?

Should I still keep the split block?

 

I just looked at the attributes of my squad. Most of my players have 12 or 13 for those attributes. The worst one is Off The Ball, but all of my players still have 10+.

Yes just like that. I already said you can keep the split block and add the AP to it, so the whole front 5 presses together. 

Off the ball is important for movement and support. 

[Mr_Demus]

4 hours ago, yonko said:

Yes just like that. I already said you can keep the split block and add the AP to it, so the whole front 5 presses together. 

Off the ball is important for movement and support. 

Yeah, sorry I misread.

 

I tried it, but it seemed to create absolutely nothing. Very solid defensively though.

[Mr_Demus]

So, I am trying things out. I saved right before a match, and then I play the same match over and over, while testing different setups out. It's a quite defensive opponent, so it should be easy to see if I csn actually manage to create anything

[Mr_Demus]

So, I am back at it. I have finished the third season. I finished in 6th place, which was expected of me. But I never had the feeling, that we played to our full potential, so I am still looking for something that works tactics wise. Therefore I hope to call on the help of you tactical wizards. Help me analyze my team - what style would suit my current players? Ideally, I would like something possession based, but maybe my players aren't up for it. Point me in the right direction.

I have tried a lot of advice given in this thread, but not much has worked, so I have come to the conclusion, that I might need to start all over and look at my actual playing style. It is not something I am great at, so I really need your help with this. Should I opt for possession, counter or maybe a hybrid? Or wing play or something completely different?

If anyone wants to do me a huge solid, I have attached screens of everything I thought might matter when setting up a tactical foundation. The transfer window opens soon, and I have the funds available to bring in some decent players.

Players that will be available next season:

 

My latest attempts:

 

The 4231 has worked better than the 4123, but from a smaller sample size.

 

What I saw that I didn't like:

-Defenders and midfielders holding the ball too long, losing possession and the opposition gaining counter attacks

-LOTS of set piece goals against us - makes sense when you look at aerial ability

-We didn't create many quality chances

-Most of our oppositions goals were assisted by crosses, but not necessarily scored with headers

 

[Mr_Demus]

I have updated the thread title, as I am now exploring more avenues.

I was thinking about maybe having two tactics. One for big teams, that is solid defensively and maybe relies more on the counter, and then one for matches where I am the favourite.

The 4231 in the post above might work for the second one, but how do you build a counter tactic with slow players?

[Experienced Defender]

1 hour ago, Mr_Demus said:

how do you build a counter tactic with slow players?

Which of your players are slow - forwards or defenders/midfielders? Or all of them?

[Mr_Demus]

2 hours ago, Experienced Defender said:

Which of your players are slow - forwards or defenders/midfielders? Or all of them?

In my current squad, I have one player with 15 pace who is capable of playing in the Midfield/AM strata. Then one offensive player with 13. My fastest unit in general is my defense.

[Experienced Defender]

27 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

My fastest unit in general is my defense

Then I guess your fullbacks must be those fast ones. Because from what I saw in your screenshots, your CBs definitely aren't. 

[Mr_Demus]

Just now, Experienced Defender said:

Then I guess your fullbacks must be those fast ones. Because from what I saw in your screenshots, your CBs definitely aren't. 

My fullbacks both have 13/13 pace/acc

[Experienced Defender]

1 minute ago, Mr_Demus said:

My fullbacks both have 13/13 pace/acc

That's quite decent 

[Mr_Demus]

7 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

That's quite decent 

Yeah, it's not bad, but I guess it's hard to implement into a counter style, as they will take time to get up field

[Experienced Defender]

No, I did not ask in relation to a counter-style. For a counter-style you primarily need fast forwards, not defenders (although having fast defenders cannot hurt anyway).

[Mr_Demus]

3 minutes ago, Experienced Defender said:

No, I did not ask in relation to a counter-style. For a counter-style you primarily need fast forwards, not defenders (although having fast defenders cannot hurt anyway).

Okay. The question of pace just originated from a counter conundrum, so I assumed it was with that in mind

[Mr_Demus]

Okay. So this is what I have done. I went back to step one. I looked at my squad as a  whole and my players individually. Tried to identify what we are actually good at and bad at.

To me, it looks like we are actually suited for a possession style.

From feedback in this thread so far and match experience, this is what I have come up with as a starting point.

The players I have put in, are the players most suited for that particular style and role in my current squad.

However, I have identified some general weaknesses, but also positional weaknesses.

 

General:

-Key players had low Off The Ball. Will start players with better OTB.

-Bad heading. Many goals against me have come from being bullied. I will bring in players who are strong and good in the air

-I need a couple of pacy players

 

Positional:

-Chukwuani will play as either AP or IW. I will bring in a player for the position he doesn't end up in

-More pacy player needed for W role

-Perhaps a HB that is better in the air and physically

-My right WB is a talented player, but maybe I need to bring in an upgrade

[GianniM]

Love the halfback role in combination with attacking WB's. But I'd change the MEZs into a CMs so that he stays more central, giving Hoyer more space. Perhaps even Hoyer on attack duty. 

[Mr_Demus]

4 hours ago, GianniM said:

Love the halfback role in combination with attacking WB's. But I'd change the MEZs into a CMs so that he stays more central, giving Hoyer more space. Perhaps even Hoyer on attack duty. 

For the last couple of seasons Højer has been playing as a FB A. Would WB A be too risky?

[GianniM]

29 minutes ago, Mr_Demus said:

For the last couple of seasons Højer has been playing as a FB A. Would WB A be too risky?

Might be, especially since Duncan has get further forward TI. 

Why did you change from FBa to WBs? 

[Mr_Demus]

4 hours ago, GianniM said:

Might be, especially since Duncan has get further forward TI. 

Why did you change from FBa to WBs? 

I am still tinkering and changing things, so the WB S at left back was based on a recommendation in this thread. I might leave him at FB A though 

[permanentquandary]

IMO a mezzala is just the wrong role for what you want. You want a runner from deep, but you also need to maintain a stable midfield. Since you are playing a Half Back, that leaves no dedicated holding midfielder when he enters the defensive line to make a back 3. So then you have a mezzala venturing off into Narnia on the flanks and channels, leaving your advanced playmaker on his own. And you had 2 players on both flanks already.

So really you need someone who can run from deep but whilst staying central and also helping out more in defence. That is a box to box midfielder. Fortunately, the Australian playing as a mezzala looks like a good option as that player.

I think he'd play better as well if he had instructions to keep it simple with his passing, so he can focus on running.

Edited July 24, 2020 by permanentquandary

[Mr_Demus]

11 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

IMO a mezzala is just the wrong role for what you want. You want a runner from deep, but you also need to maintain a stable midfield. Since you are playing a Half Back, that leaves no dedicated holding midfielder when he enters the defensive line to make a back 3. So then you have a mezzala venturing off into Narnia on the flanks and channels, leaving your advanced playmaker on his own. And you had 2 players on both flanks already.

So really you need someone who can run from deep but whilst staying central and also helping out more in defence. That is a box to box midfielder. Fortunately, the Australian playing as a mezzala looks like a good option as that player.

I think he'd play better as well if he had instructions to keep it simple with his passing, so he can focus on running.

That sounds like great advice. Will try it out. Thanks

[Deego619]

First, a reality check. You say you want possession football, but in reality you want winning football. 

On 22/07/2020 at 23:04, Mr_Demus said:

So, I am back at it. I have finished the third season. I finished in 6th place, which was expected of me. But I never had the feeling, that we played to our full potential, so I am still looking for something that works tactics wise.

You've made a tactic that performs to expectations. That's achieving. If you did that season over season whilst recruiting well, you'll have a league title within 5 years.

Something that might help if your struggles with tactics are prolonged:

• Turn off all TIs / PIs
• Use generic roles only (i.e, no half back / mezzala / fancy sounding roles).

Then watch how your team plays in comparison to how they are at the moment. What needs to change? Is it better?

Then make your tactic from there.

I'd try something like:

GK/S

WBs/S

CBs/S

DM/D

CM/S

CM/A

IWs/s

PF/A

And work from there.

Edited July 25, 2020 by Deego619

[summatsupeer]

On 24/07/2020 at 07:17, Mr_Demus said:

Okay. So this is what I have done. I went back to step one. I looked at my squad as a  whole and my players individually. Tried to identify what we are actually good at and bad at.

To me, it looks like we are actually suited for a possession style.

I'd watch out for your team splitting.  The AP-Su will drop to collect so depending where he is, the MEZ-Su might be quite wide/high with the IW-Su, the W-At might also be wide/high and the DLF-At will also likely be high.  That will require a longer pass to progress the ball up field from the AP-Su which goes against your instructions.

Do you need Play Out Of Defence PLUS Distribute to CB + FBs?  Thats very specific and with two of the front 3 on attack duties you might struggle to transition playing a short passing game. 

Shorter Passing + Balanced Mentality and lots of defend/support duties will likely give you plenty of possession but it might not be in a threatening area of the pitch.

[Mr_Demus]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

I'd watch out for your team splitting.  The AP-Su will drop to collect so depending where he is, the MEZ-Su might be quite wide/high with the IW-Su, the W-At might also be wide/high and the DLF-At will also likely be high.  That will require a longer pass to progress the ball up field from the AP-Su which goes against your instructions.

Do you need Play Out Of Defence PLUS Distribute to CB + FBs?  Thats very specific and with two of the front 3 on attack duties you might struggle to transition playing a short passing game. 

Shorter Passing + Balanced Mentality and lots of defend/support duties will likely give you plenty of possession but it might not be in a threatening area of the pitch.

No. You are right. I actually spotted that and changed it myself, but I haven't uploaded the edited tactic yet. 

I have changed to positive and removed either play out of defense or distribute to fb/cb. 

Also, as per previous advice, I will try a BBM instead of Mez

[permanentquandary]

2 hours ago, Mr_Demus said:

No. You are right. I actually spotted that and changed it myself, but I haven't uploaded the edited tactic yet. 

I have changed to positive and removed either play out of defense or distribute to fb/cb. 

Also, as per previous advice, I will try a BBM instead of Mez

By the way if you feel like the BBM is not giving you enough threat in the final third, try selecting the Get Further Forward PI.

I find that often it's better to play support duties but tell players you would have normally given attack duties to get further forward. That way they take less risks on the ball, are more available for passes and drag defenders away from their positions but they will also make selective runs in behind.