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Question About Taking a 10th Tier Team to the Prem

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So, got a question regarding a save I've trying out using the database that adds teams down into the 10th tier of English Football.

Started this save and chose to take over Whitchurch United... partly because I love the daft nickname, which is 'The Jam Boys', and the fact that I live about a 30 minute drive from Whitchurch. So far I'm into my third season, and enjoying it immensely. So far I've had back to back promotions in my first two seasons, and 10 games in currently sit 2nd in the 8th tier of English Football.

My problem now though is that each successive season were I do well, I tend to lose some of my best players because I can't offer them anything other than 'pay as you play' style contracts. At no point have I been able to offer anyone even a part time contract. Finances first two seasons were really good, kept a few hundred pounds below the wage budget, and made sure to make as much cash as I could from FA Cup runs and pre-season friendlies. Struggled a bit this season with attempting to sign players of the quality needed for this league, and suddenly having to double most of my wages with the squad. Though part of the struggle with wage has been down to me panicking about losing players, so I sign an abundance of them, and despite the fact that everyone is 'pay to play' kind of wages, for some reason I'm over spending by about £800 a week.

I'm just wanting to ask... at what point do I get the option to offer part-time contracts? Is there any specific requirement I need to hit before I can do this? 

Is there another way I can stop my players being poached so much? In the contract negotiations I can't offer any kind of contract extensions, or any clauses or bonuses basically. 

Cheers for any help!

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I could be wrong but to offer proper contracts I believe you have to ask the board to turn the club professional, which would be difficult to do unless you’re in (minimum) Vanarama north/south league, I believe that’s step 6.

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Mrlee.1986 said:

I could be wrong but to offer proper contracts I believe you have to ask the board to turn the club professional, which would be difficult to do unless you’re in (minimum) Vanarama north/south league, I believe that’s step 6.


I don't think being Professional has to much to do with it from what I've seen so far, I gotta sadly say. 

Managed Oxford City in Van South once, and they're only Semi-Professional, but I could offer players there Part-Time contracts.

 

Adding on to that for my current save in the 8th tier... about 70% of the teams I'm playing against all have players with part-time contracts, sometimes across the entire starting 11. Before I use to do quite well by just signing all the best players in the media dream 11 for the league, but this time it's impossible, because I can't sign anyone cos they're all Part-Timers, but my players just keep getting poached.

Just baffled that the other teams around me are at the point of offering contracts, but for some reason I can't offer the same.

Edited by SuperBiggles

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23 minutes ago, SuperBiggles said:


I don't think being Professional has to much to do with it from what I've seen so far, I gotta sadly say. 

Managed Oxford City in Van South once, and they're only Semi-Professional, but I could offer players there Part-Time contracts.

 

Adding on to that for my current save in the 8th tier... about 70% of the teams I'm playing against all have players with part-time contracts, sometimes across the entire starting 11. Before I use to do quite well by just signing all the best players in the media dream 11 for the league, but this time it's impossible, because I can't sign anyone cos they're all Part-Timers, but my players just keep getting poached.

Just baffled that the other teams around me are at the point of offering contracts, but for some reason I can't offer the same.

Might be an issue with the edited database that you're using, if the clubs further down the pyramid haven't been properly flagged to allow for part time contracts as you move up the leagues. However, in Tier 8, in real life, teams would only very rarely have people on part-time contracts. I follow my regional Tier 8 league, and I'm not aware of any teams near me who have any players on an actual contract, because none of them can afford to have players on contract.

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Might be an issue with the edited database that you're using, if the clubs further down the pyramid haven't been properly flagged to allow for part time contracts as you move up the leagues. However, in Tier 8, in real life, teams would only very rarely have people on part-time contracts. I follow my regional Tier 8 league, and I'm not aware of any teams near me who have any players on an actual contract, because none of them can afford to have players on contract.


Could be. I don't think I would've even thought too much about it if it wasn't for every other team around me seeming to have contracts for players. Hell, just look at this screenshot of the current league leaders;

49814099_Screenshot2020-06-27at01_30_47.thumb.png.08c3d6dd6fff5a78c3b43c913917d1d6.png

 

Apparently they're all, bar two players, on part-time contracts in tier 8. Which is a bit daft... but, like you said, probably something wrong with the database. I mean, Colne have a small squad, granted. But still. Probably salty cos they're turning into the effing Liverpool of tier 8... they just refuse to lose, and smash most teams 4-0. Impossible to keep up

Edited by SuperBiggles

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Are you semi professional? If so, I know sometimes you can go into the in game editor and change your status to professional, but don't hit the ok button, and then change it back to semi professional. I know this sometimes clears that bug.

The other thing I've found was that it default to non contract, but you could offer part time contracts upwards of £100p/w.

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Ahh I didn’t read the part time bit.. my logic was going by I work for a tier 7 club (isthmian prem) and as they are only part time players (most have weekday jobs as builders, plumbers etc) they aren’t classed as professional. However on the same logic the club also only give 1 year “contracts” to a select few and the rest are on pay as you play or “appearance fees”

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It depends on the clubs status and obviously the money situation. 

I play as caerau Ely which started as amateur in the Welsh second division. It took a promotion to the top division to turn semi pro.

I still couldn't offer part time contracts for a few seasons which I thought was a bug and panic signed non contracts  to keep my best players which usually chose to stay. When the club reached a certain rep I was able to offer part time contracts to staff then I could offer players part time for a year only. I was so chuffed I thought I won the league.

Its a hell of a hump to get from amateur to semi pro where your ably to offer part time to players that semi pro to professional is relatively a lot smoother. The debt to turn semi pro was scary but the relative ease of getting to Europe in the welsh prem was what saved the club. 

Good luck 👍

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8 hours ago, potbellypigs said:

Are you semi professional? If so, I know sometimes you can go into the in game editor and change your status to professional, but don't hit the ok button, and then change it back to semi professional. I know this sometimes clears that bug.

The other thing I've found was that it default to non contract, but you could offer part time contracts upwards of £100p/w.

Yeah, the club is Semi-Pro.

Here's a screenshot of the general info page of the club;

31772874_Screenshot2020-06-27at18_00_37.thumb.png.b010fc0031834b9ecca819810c6341be.png

 

I tried going into the editor like you suggested and flicking the professional on and off, but that didn't help at all. Couldn't offer any part-time contracts at all. In terms of the reputation like someone else said, I have the exact same reputation as some of the other teams in the league, but somehow they all have the ability to offer players part-time contracts.

I mean, this is the finances if it means anything;

642768353_Screenshot2020-06-27at18_00_43.thumb.png.6d59b6e82921904fbab0eef7671d3fae.png

 

Granted, they don't look to great at the minute. But there's zero money to be made in these leagues. The slightly in-the-red wage budget is down to the fact that I've just signed a couple of new strikers in an attempt to rejuvenate my faltering, misfiring season. So, that'll me sold once I release a few of the deadwood style players. But I can't imagine any of the other teams in the league being any better. In fact, most are listed as 'insecure' at best.

I don't know at this point. Just seems a bit odd. It's almost killing the fun a little for this save by accidentally creating some kind of 'hard mode' by literally every other team in my league being able to sign players, and I'm (despite being the favourites to win the league) stuck in pay-to-play limbo. Couple that with the fact that every bit of bad luck just seems to be going my way at the minute. Looks like play-offs is the best shot for this season.

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There is a way in the editor to change this in the pre game editor.

Go in to it, load the L10 data you're using.

Search for the relevant club you wish to manage, click it.

On the menu on the left, see "Contract Types". Click it. On the main screen where it says "CONTRACT TYPES FOR SQUAD STATUS" change them to "part time".

I may be wrong but that should work. If you wish to make this apply to all lower level clubs you can search for clubs by division level (eg 7, 8, 9, 10) then bulk edit all contract types for all clubs. 

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You're also going to be spending a lot on travel expenses if you're in the Northern Premier League with Whitchurch United.

 

Out of interest there any other southern clubs in the league? 

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2 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

There is a way in the editor to change this in the pre game editor.

Go in to it, load the L10 data you're using.

Search for the relevant club you wish to manage, click it.

On the menu on the left, see "Contract Types". Click it. On the main screen where it says "CONTRACT TYPES FOR SQUAD STATUS" change them to "part time".

I may be wrong but that should work. If you wish to make this apply to all lower level clubs you can search for clubs by division level (eg 7, 8, 9, 10) then bulk edit all contract types for all clubs. 

Is there a way to enable transfer fees for amateur contracts? I remember in FM19 at least I played in a couple leagues where that was a thing. Had to pay amateur clubs a minimum transfer fee of something like 1.2k to take their players. May not sound like a lot, but if your club gets 8 fans a game, every little bit counts. Also would help reduce the constant player overturn.

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1 hour ago, Prepper_Jack said:

Is there a way to enable transfer fees for amateur contracts? 

I'm pretty certain that's not possible, but if you ask in the Editors Hideaway they'll know for certain.

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Posted (edited)
On 26/06/2020 at 23:11, SuperBiggles said:

So, got a question regarding a save I've trying out using the database that adds teams down into the 10th tier of English Football.

Started this save and chose to take over Whitchurch United... partly because I love the daft nickname, which is 'The Jam Boys', and the fact that I live about a 30 minute drive from Whitchurch. So far I'm into my third season, and enjoying it immensely. So far I've had back to back promotions in my first two seasons, and 10 games in currently sit 2nd in the 8th tier of English Football.

My problem now though is that each successive season were I do well, I tend to lose some of my best players because I can't offer them anything other than 'pay as you play' style contracts. At no point have I been able to offer anyone even a part time contract. Finances first two seasons were really good, kept a few hundred pounds below the wage budget, and made sure to make as much cash as I could from FA Cup runs and pre-season friendlies. Struggled a bit this season with attempting to sign players of the quality needed for this league, and suddenly having to double most of my wages with the squad. Though part of the struggle with wage has been down to me panicking about losing players, so I sign an abundance of them, and despite the fact that everyone is 'pay to play' kind of wages, for some reason I'm over spending by about £800 a week.

I'm just wanting to ask... at what point do I get the option to offer part-time contracts? Is there any specific requirement I need to hit before I can do this? 

Is there another way I can stop my players being poached so much? In the contract negotiations I can't offer any kind of contract extensions, or any clauses or bonuses basically. 

Cheers for any help!

In the lower leagues, poaching players is the name of the game. My advice, even if it doesn't answer your question the way it satisfies you, is not to get attached to players. If you're not running a very small database and make use of trials instead of scouting (which is inadvisable due to not have the resources in terms of network, money and staff at those levels), you can replace players fairly easily every summer with or without minimal tweaking of your tactics. Ironically in my opinion, the actual problem is when you turn professional: you have to pay players that you blatantly know aren't going to be good enough in a year or two when you earn another promotion, and you will have great difficulties to get rid of them even on a discount or for free. It's actually what I'd call a trap: you think it grants you better security, but it doesn't. Instead, it gives better security to the player, not to you as a manager or to your club.

In summary: when you're trying to get to the Premier League as quickly as possible and unless you have a small database with only one country loaded: players are highly expandable. They're stepping stones for your greater project of reaching the top division(s). You will most likely go through dozens of different players on your path to the Premier League, and that's just the way it is.

I've played in way trashier leagues than the English 10th division, and the best status for a club is Semi-Pro: you can keep the guys you're unsure of on Non-Contracts/Amateur contracts, and secure decent players with a Part Time contract for one season or two... then replace them quickly when they become useless. That being said, replacing 10 players each season isn't a big deal honestly, you'll just need solid cookie-cutter tactics and many friendly matches to build Tactical Knowledge and Match Sharpness. :onmehead:

Edited by Xavier Lukhas

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20 hours ago, Afro_Stud said:

You're also going to be spending a lot on travel expenses if you're in the Northern Premier League with Whitchurch United.

 

Out of interest there any other southern clubs in the league? 



I've always been rubbish at geography, but wouldn't Whitchurch being in the North West division be sensible? I live in North Wales these days, near the English border, and Whitchurch is about 30 minute drive from me. Also couldn't say about where other clubs are from, but this is a screenshot of the league itself;

517297914_Screenshot2020-06-28at20_35_46.thumb.png.6394c0088701914dd308b5ff8c33d5ef.png

 

11 hours ago, Xavier Lukhas said:

In the lower leagues, poaching players is the name of the game. My advice, even if it doesn't answer your question the way it satisfies you, is not to get attached to players. If you're not running a very small database and make use of trials instead of scouting (which is inadvisable due to not have the resources in terms of network, money and staff at those levels), you can replace players fairly easily every summer with or without minimal tweaking of your tactics. Ironically in my opinion, the actual problem is when you turn professional: you have to pay players that you blatantly know aren't going to be good enough in a year or two when you earn another promotion, and you will have great difficulties to get rid of them even on a discount or for free. It's actually what I'd call a trap: you think it grants you better security, but it doesn't. Instead, it gives better security to the player, not to you as a manager or to your club.


I totally get this, and to be fair to myself I do a lot of poaching myself. Last two seasons in 10th and 9th division I basically just poached most of the media dream 11 for the league, comfortably getting the best squad for the division. So I don't mind too much about losing some players here and there. And I'm being ruthless enough that, barring 3 players that I might keep for my squad as long as I can, I've more or less changed my 11 each season or half season.

I think the annoying nature of getting players poached now is that I've reached the 8th division and most of the other teams in my league seem to be able to offer part-time contracts to their squad, whereas I don't get the option at all. It's only annoying because I'm pegged to finish top, but I've lost a few good players (all 3 of my starting CB's) and I can't poach any of the players from other teams in my league. I can't sign any from the leagues above me for similar reasons, and the fact that I can't offer anything better than what they have, and the two lower leagues below me... well, their best 11's are considered absolute rubbish for my teams standard.

So, yeah. It's more the fact that I can't match other teams, despite the fact we are all in the same rubbish league, but somehow they can outdo me financially ... somehow?

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7 hours ago, SuperBiggles said:



So, yeah. It's more the fact that I can't match other teams, despite the fact we are all in the same rubbish league, but somehow they can outdo me financially ... somehow?

Okay, there is a solution to this in the pre game editor. It's similar to the solution above.

Open editor,  load your L10 database.

Click 'database' in the top left menu, then 'competitions' in bottom left, it will bring up a search criteria for competitions. 

Use this filter, find the relevant division, select it by double clicking, you'll see "contract types" in the bottom left, as with the above post l made. Change them to suit.

In real life most clubs at L9 and L10 offer non-contract only, players are poachable with a 7 day notice period. L8 and above are more likely to offer part time deals to star players and first teamers, non contract deals for reserves. If you wish to fix your divisions to reflect this they can be quickly bulk edited. You can do this by following the first 2 steps above, then in the search criteria use:

NATION - ENGLAND 

lS EXTINCT - NO

 DIVISION LEVEL - (relevant levels, eg 9 and 10 to change from amateur to non contract, 8 and 7 to change from non contract to part time).

You can then press ctrl+a to use the edit all feature to amend contract types to suit. That way, once promoted to L8, you'll be able to offer more realistic contracts.

 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, SuperBiggles said:

So, yeah. It's more the fact that I can't match other teams, despite the fact we are all in the same rubbish league, but somehow they can outdo me financially ... somehow?

Often is based on Reputation, or at least the standard of your team increasing faster than your Reputation (if you have multiple successive promotions). Also, the Chairman has their attributes, and some really are penny pinching cheapskates and/or lack the overall vision and foresight to see the point of turning Semi-Pro quickly. And when you leave, the incoming manager gets what they want because it's part of the negotiation process. welcome to Football Manager, enjoy your stay. :onmehead:

It's more an issue of how FM works fundamental than an issue with database settings or rules. Normally if the whole league is Semi-Pro, you will turn Semi-Pro as well if you dare ask... unless the club is set to "Always Amateur". Doesn't mean you'll have much available money to sign contracts though.

Edited by Xavier Lukhas

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20 hours ago, SuperBiggles said:

well, their best 11's are considered absolute rubbish for my teams standard.

 

I'm on a similar save myself, taking Looe Town from 12th tier to the Prem. One of the things i quickly noticed was that most of my team, when you go into coach reports, are at Tier 8 levels when I'm in Tier 10. And as such, when I was in Tier 8, I was able to grab a couple of Conference North/South (Tier 6) quality players. So on and so forth. 

Certainly in the early years, the number of players willing to join me was minimal, and I had a bit of trouble finding a decent left winger. Did the usual trials, anyone who was 3.5 stars plus was offered an amateur contract. Ended up signing an entire new squad really. Left winger guy who was 3.5 stars on trial, turned into a 0.5 star by the time I'd signed him. Realised, because I'd signed some better players, the star rating had decreased as he was worse than a lot of the squad. But he was still a Tier 9/10 quality player I think, can't remember exactly.

The game isn't built to accurately represent the lower leagues very well. Certainly the database I'm using, doesn't add in any extra players for these lower leagues, and as such the free agent market is Tier 6 rejects. This allows you to build a team that is leagues above your level, and the first few years are rather comfortable (I went the first 3 seasons unbeaten in all competitions, until I got to Altrincham in the FA Cup) . 

Bringing all this in together, is it that the lower league best XIs are rubbish, or is your team now so much better than the surrounding teams that they appear rubbish in a scout report. 

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15 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

Okay, there is a solution to this in the pre game editor. It's similar to the solution above.

Open editor,  load your L10 database.

Click 'database' in the top left menu, then 'competitions' in bottom left, it will bring up a search criteria for competitions. 

Use this filter, find the relevant division, select it by double clicking, you'll see "contract types" in the bottom left, as with the above post l made. Change them to suit.

In real life most clubs at L9 and L10 offer non-contract only, players are poachable with a 7 day notice period. L8 and above are more likely to offer part time deals to star players and first teamers, non contract deals for reserves. If you wish to fix your divisions to reflect this they can be quickly bulk edited. You can do this by following the first 2 steps above, then in the search criteria use:

NATION - ENGLAND 

lS EXTINCT - NO

 DIVISION LEVEL - (relevant levels, eg 9 and 10 to change from amateur to non contract, 8 and 7 to change from non contract to part time).

You can then press ctrl+a to use the edit all feature to amend contract types to suit. That way, once promoted to L8, you'll be able to offer more realistic contracts.

 


Sorry if this comes across as a really dense question, I've never used the editor (despite getting it) or anything yet in FM.

But... if I have to edit the league in the pre-game editor, will the changes apply to my current save, or will I have to start a new one? Again, sorry if it's a painfully stupid question. 

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Posted (edited)

In the pre-game editor, you can choose the type of contract allowed for a club for each playing status level. Does anyone know if that can also be done in the in-game editor, because that would allow the OP to achieve what they're trying to do. 

Edited by DementedHammer

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4 hours ago, DementedHammer said:

In the pre-game editor, you can choose the type of contract allowed for a club for each playing status level. Does anyone know if that can also be done in the in-game editor, because that would allow the OP to achieve what they're trying to do. 

No it can't.

The solution described above is quite simple, would take around 5 minutes worth of work, but can't be done without a new save.

If he does have the lGE though he can edit individual player contracts - he can change a non-contract to part-time with a couple of clicks, and using this as a workaround - but afaik he has to have the lGE enabled on his save already, if he hasn't bought it and enabled it at the start of a save l don't think he can use it without starting afresh anyway.

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I've just started a save as a tier 8 team, and am struggling to find anyone who wants a non/amateur contract. Everyone wants part-time. Is this the norm? I have like £50 wage budget and some of my players are being poached, finding it hard to replace them as no players seem to want a non-contract. 

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Slightly OT but Whitchurch is the only non-league ground i've been to where they give you your tea in a mug :D

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Similarly I had a save in the lower leagues of Germany and couldn't offer part time contracts until my club rep went above 1500 (maybe 1501). If you have the in game editor you can check club rep and if below that then increasing it should hopefully solve your problem. 

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5 hours ago, Crispypaul said:

Slightly OT but Whitchurch is the only non-league ground i've been to where they give you your tea in a mug :D


Nice! I think when the world calms down and you're allowed to go to things, I might actually go to a Whitchurch United game now.

 

10 hours ago, Danchinaski said:

No it can't.

The solution described above is quite simple, would take around 5 minutes worth of work, but can't be done without a new save.

If he does have the lGE though he can edit individual player contracts - he can change a non-contract to part-time with a couple of clicks, and using this as a workaround - but afaik he has to have the lGE enabled on his save already, if he hasn't bought it and enabled it at the start of a save l don't think he can use it without starting afresh anyway.


I might have to leave this as the fix then. I don't get a massive amount of time to play FM, and I've just finished my third season in this save, winning a third straight league/promotion. Feel like I wouldn't have the motivation to begin it all again if it was the only way to fix it. Might have to see how the club behaves come the start of the new season, then possibly have to just go in and fiddle with changing contracts.. though that also feels slightly like cheating.

Failing that I'll just endeavour to play through and hope at some point prior to becoming professional that I can actually offer some kind of part-time contracts

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