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Posted (edited)

The engine may be as broken as the football industry. The opening post wouldn't show it, however. What the OP was doing, btw. All same Season, all months apart, from a manager who arguably "gets" it (and would never conclude that having more shots on a spreadsheet come the end of a match was necessarily a good performance, let alone dominating).

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375942/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Tottenham

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376038/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Wolverhampton-Wanderers

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375969/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Norwich-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1426925/MatchReport/Europe-Champions-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Shakhtar-Donetsk

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Manchester-United

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1436447/MatchReport/England-League-Cup-2019-2020-Manchester-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376140/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Crystal-Palace

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376145/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Tottenham-Manchester-City

 

The game needs more feedback too anyhow. These simple MOTD stats may tell one story, more detailed analysis another. 

https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/how-much-do-manchester-city-need-to-overhaul/
https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/why-arent-manchester-city-better/


City’s substantive issue is the ease with which teams are breaking their press. Their xG per shot conceded is the second-worst in the league, strange for a side that’s elite at basically everything else.

Edited by Svenc

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Why is it that some players assume that having more shots and possession than the opposition = domination of the game?

Those are a poor metrics to use in my view, the only thing you should be using to judge whether you are doing well in a game is the scoreline.

When I play a game and have more shots than the opposition I tend to win the game comfortably.

Looking at the screenshots posted by the OP.

Sunderland 0 Preston 0

In this game, you didn't create any CCCs so while your team had a lot of shots none of them really were from positions where the probability of scoring favoured the attacker. This fact is reflected in the opposition GK Mitchell rating, 6.9 is good but not great which means he didn't have to really pull off a stream of good saves to keep you from scoring.

Sunderland 3 Charlton 2

In this game, you created 5 CCCs and scored 60% of them which is fairly good. Charlton were very efficient in this game scoring 2 goals without creating a CCC but sometimes teams do that especially if they don't have much of the ball to create chances from open play.

Sunderland 1 Blackburn 1

This game probably shows best what I'm talking about. Yes, you had a load more shots than them BUT you only created 1 more CCC winning that battle 2 to 1. Your striker didn't have a good day at the office either, why did you leave him on? It's very rare to see a striker after having a poor game suddenly start performing. The longer you leave them on the more frustrated they become making it more likely they will miss anything you do create for them. I've seen it too many times, striker doesn't score after having a number of shots then starts snatching at chances.

Sunderland 1 Cardiff 0

You were lucky to win this game. You created no clear cut chances, had a bunch of meaningless shots and possession. Why do you make the substitutions that you do? Your fullbacks were doing okay, why did you take them off while leaving on your under performing wingers?

Preston 1 Sunderland 0

You created one CCC, they created one CCC. You couldn't put yours away and they did so you lost. Again with your choices of substitution. Cingolani and Bida were awful why did you leave both of them on?

Nautico 3 Decisao 1

You created 4 CCC chances and converted 3 which isn't bad at all. Having 44 shots on the other hand is not an impressive feat and if it were me I would seriously be analyzing that match. Of those shots, less than half were on target and only 4 of which would be expected to converted. Padding the statistics isn't representative of anything of any value. In addition, some teams are happy for you to have a bunch of non threatening shots as a means of defending.

Nautico 0 Salgueiro 0

The game didn't decide that you were going to draw the game. Your players didn't do enough to put the ball into the back of the net. You are equating having more possession and shots as meaning that you deserve to win a game which isn't right.

The ME is an easy scapegoat, it does have it's flaws but as long as players keep blaming it every-time something doesn't go their way they will not make any improvements by working on their weaknesses.

Players need to ask whether the aim of this game is to have more shots and possession than the opposition or to score more goals than the opposition?

When you see that your team is struggling to score what do you do to try and change things?

In the end, that's what management is, finding solutions to problems. 

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I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound offensive at all.

You talk about "poor metrics" and then you think you can analyze and judging how the user played 7 games by watching their results from some screenshots?

I thought it would have taken longer to demonstrate what I said just a couple of days ago.

 

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4 ore fa, Svenc ha scritto:

The engine may be as broken as the football industry. The opening post wouldn't show it, however. What the OP was doing, btw. All same Season, all months apart, from a manager who arguably "gets" it (and would never conclude that having more shots on a spreadsheet come the end of a match was necessarily a good performance, let alone dominating).

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375942/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Tottenham

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376038/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Wolverhampton-Wanderers

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375969/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Norwich-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1426925/MatchReport/Europe-Champions-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Shakhtar-Donetsk

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Manchester-United

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1436447/MatchReport/England-League-Cup-2019-2020-Manchester-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376140/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Crystal-Palace

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376145/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Tottenham-Manchester-City

 

The game needs more feedback too anyhow. These simple MOTD stats may tell one story, more detailed analysis another. 

https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/how-much-do-manchester-city-need-to-overhaul/
https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/why-arent-manchester-city-better/

 

 

Sorry, how many of those shots from Man City were on target? I can't find the correct statistic for that.

I can see total attempts (which means everything or nothing), I can see if shots came from open play or set pieces... but I can't see or understand if they shoot at the moon or the goalkeeper was actually hammered.

One question: you keep bringing links from EPL real stats (and many others). Is it correct to say that you think the game is so good that can be easily compared to any real football match?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Federico said:

One question: you keep bringing links from EPL real stats (and many others). Is it correct to say that you think the game is so good that can be easily compared to any real football match?

No, I don't. I am just curious how anybody can bring up such simplistic stats as in the opening post and trigger a discussion how it were broken. It may well be broken, but none of these numbers, absolutely none in here, would show it. It's like when playing the game, developing a subjective eye has always massively trumped just looking at the stats alone. Plus, raw numbers may actually hide lots of actual bugs.

Re: Were you can check for shots on target: It's under the "match center" tab. If you click on "match center" and "total shots" there is a break-down

Re: I disagree that lots of SOT mean a keeper would be hammered, in particular as to FM. There were also quite a few of SOT in this vintage match for PSG (the Player is Ajaccio), but most of them are easy saves for the keeper. Indeed, one of the Problems since forever is that you can get many SOT that -- evidently -- aren't that converted that much into goals in-game, so the game cannot be perfect. :D 


 

Edited by Svenc

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Posted (edited)

Why would I take offense when all you're doing is adding your opinion on what I wrote?

I'm basing my 'analysis' (if you can call it that) on what is being presented. Much like you, I have nothing else to go on. For a more thorough analysis he could post his save game along with .pkms of those games where I could painstakingly go through the games. That would be immensely time consuming of course and potentially be a waste of time considering I'm not entirely sure whether he's still interested in playing the game anyway.

Besides, I didn't post in this thread to try and prove or disprove whether the ME is 'broken' or not.

It was simply to highlight the point that having loads of shots and possession in the greater scheme of things doesn't really have as much significance as a lot of players attach to it. Therefore using those statistics to prove that the "ME is broken" doesn't actually prove anything.

Had he posted screenshots showing him creating loads of CCCs every game and having similar results then I think that would make for a more compelling case and would be far stronger evidence to back up his claim that the ME is broken. As it stands, all that those screenshots prove is that he has a tactic which generates a lot of shots (it says nothing about the quality of those shots) and generally dominates possession. Neither of which actually say much about a teams ability to actually score goals.

Edited by pheelf

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41 minuti fa, Svenc ha scritto:

No, I don't. I am just curious how anybody can bring up such simplistic stats as in the opening post and trigger a discussion how it were broken. It may well be broken, but none of these numbers, absolutely none in here, would show it. It's like when playing the game, developing a subjective eye has always massively trumped just looking at the stats alone. Plus, raw numbers may actually hide lots of actual bugs.

Re: Were you can check for shots on target: It's under the "match center" tab. If you click on "match center" and "total shots" there is a break-down

Re: I disagree that lots of SOT mean a keeper would be hammered, in particular as to FM. There were also quite a few of SOT in this vintage match for PSG (the Player is Ajaccio), but most of them are easy saves for the keeper. Indeed, one of the Problems since forever is that you can get many SOT that -- evidently -- aren't that converted that much into goals in-game, so the game cannot be perfect. :D 


 

Thanks.

I agree, but I also think that screenshots are just a way to demonstrate why someone doesn't feel fine with the game. I mean it's not that someone plays "results only", then he looks at the tab of stats and come here complaining. I'd rather think someone tries to make a tactic so that his team will possibly win. I think he doesn't give a hell of how many times his team shoots on goal, he just wants his team to win. Then he plays the match and, highlights set on "extended" (but probably a lot of users play in "key") the output shows his team, and his team only, growing attempts on attempts. That's easy, for me, to understand how a user can feel "dominant". I can't say but, and I repeat myself, I'm pretty sure few of them were extremely good, and I mean those chances were the player could score quite easily or his shot is so poor you think he hit the ground like the worse amateur player you can imagine. So yeah it's true SOT means not so much, but I'm pretty sure the frustration grows because the user has the perception that some of them were unacceptable. And because those chances are repetitive. Like 1v1 in example.

I highlighted what's one of the bigger problem in my opinion and totally agree with that. But the balance is hard to get right. If the game copies real life figures, it would be extremely boring the most of times. So, since it's a game, some kind of "dynamic" has to be introduced. Here it comes why, possibly, so many chances are created and shots on goal are delivered. Can't sincerely complain that.

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21 minuti fa, pheelf ha scritto:

Why would I take offense when all you're doing is adding your opinion on what I wrote?

Thank you. You know, nowadays you always have to be careful on the internet :)

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fm2020 wasted time and money

long live CM 01/02, Cm 03/04, Fm 2008, FM 2010, FM 2012

the rest of the series is mediocre

eidos i miss you so much

Adsız.png

Adsız1.png

Adsız2.png

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5 minuti fa, sadikeser ha scritto:

eidos i miss you so much

Ahm.. sorry to disappoint you, but I think Eidos was the publisher. CM/FM is a product of Sports Interactive since.... ever.

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34 minutes ago, pheelf said:

It was simply to highlight the point that having loads of shots and possession in the greater scheme of things doesn't really have as much significance as a lot of players attach to it. Therefore using those statistics to prove that the "ME is broken" doesn't actually prove anything.

Had he posted screenshots showing him creating loads of CCCs every game and having similar results then I think that would make for a more compelling case and would be far stronger evidence to back up his claim that the ME is broken. As it stands, all that those screenshots prove is that he has a tactic which generates a lot of shots (it says nothing about the quality of those shots) and generally dominates possession. Neither of which actually say much about a teams ability to actually score goals.

this ^^ 

I think many of us can agree that the ME isn’t perfect and that the frequency of “sitters” and “1v1s” missed by miles is a tad too high no matter what level or player but at the same time we know that some of it is the ME, yes, but some of it can be his tactic, and sometimes it’s just “not your day“. Posting a few screens and raging the game is broken isn’t probably the best way of going about it. But at least he has done his rant and vent and went back to other games. (maybe even an older fm)

Let’s hope this improves in FM21 if not he can make the choice not to buy the game, just like everyone else.

 

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2 minutes ago, Federico said:

Ahm.. sorry to disappoint you, but I think Eidos was the publisher. CM/FM is a product of Sports Interactive since.... ever.

I am aware that you are a publisher. It did not allow drastic changes to the match engine at the time of eidos. That's why eidos and si left

After FM 2012,  si chasing adventure

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I'm not a publisher I swear! :lol: (I love translators).

I'm afraid you're making some confusion, but anyway.

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5 hours ago, Svenc said:

The engine may be as broken as the football industry. The opening post wouldn't show it, however. What the OP was doing, btw. All same Season, all months apart, from a manager who arguably "gets" it (and would never conclude that having more shots on a spreadsheet come the end of a match was necessarily a good performance, let alone dominating).

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375942/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Tottenham

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376038/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Wolverhampton-Wanderers

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1375969/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Norwich-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376045/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Newcastle-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1426925/MatchReport/Europe-Champions-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Shakhtar-Donetsk

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Manchester-United

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1436447/MatchReport/England-League-Cup-2019-2020-Manchester-United-Manchester-City

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376140/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Manchester-City-Crystal-Palace

https://1xbet.whoscored.com/Matches/1376145/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2019-2020-Tottenham-Manchester-City

 

The game needs more feedback too anyhow. These simple MOTD stats may tell one story, more detailed analysis another. 

https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/how-much-do-manchester-city-need-to-overhaul/
https://statsbomb.com/2020/03/why-arent-manchester-city-better/

 

 

sorry i can't explain the following english i hope google translate translates properly from turkish :)))

Premier Ligde 1 sezonda tüm takımlar toplam 760 civarı maç yapıyorlar ve senin verdiğin sonuçlara göre sadece 9 maçta böyle olmuş

Fm 2020'de ise;

- kaleci ile karşı karşıya gol atmak imkansız.

- şut ile gol atmak çok kolay

- oyuncular çok fazla bireysel hata yapıyor.

- 1 maçta gol yemeden kapatman neredeyse imkansız

- sen 30 şutta 2 gol atıyorsun. rakip 3 şut 2 gol atıyor.

Yazdıklarım geçek hayatta olabilecek şeyler fakat FM 2020'de sürekli olunca can sıkıyor.

 

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Well, I think everyone gets frustrated a bit when their strikers aren't making goals. As others have said, shots/shots on target is not a very good metric. You could have a few strikers in the middle of a bunch of defenders just bouncing the ball off their faces 8 or 9 times in the vague direction of the goal and these might be considered "shots on target". Chances are a better metric. They don't tell the entire story, because your tactic could rely on setting up long shots, but generally it's a decent indicator on how well your playmaking is going. Now, if you're running 8 chances a game on average, and your strikers do absolutely nothing with it, leaving you reliant on set pieces and long shots, you have every right to be angry with your strikers for fluffing things up.

But, you need to analyze those chances to see what's going on. Load up the match analysis and watch the highlights for each of those chances. Some of them can be remedied by a few tweaks. If your play is more direct, and your forwards get into more one-on-one's with the keeper, but end up firing into his palms every time, you can teach that player to either round or lob the keeper. If he has decent dribbling, teach him to round, and he'll sidestep the keeper at the last moment and take the shot. If he's better at finishing, teach him to lob the keeper, and he'll hit the ball over the keeper, making the shot. If your tactic relies more on crosses, or other playmakers who get the ball in fast, and your striker has the skills for it, it would behoove you to teach them first time shots, and/or places shots. Adding appropriate player traits can give you an additional 3-4 points per game.

But, as others have said, strikers can also go through dry spells. If they do, bench them for a while, periodically shoving them in the game in the second half to see if they've gotten over it.

If you're not getting chances, that's a whole other topic, and you really need to look at your tactics if this is a persistent issue.

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33 minutes ago, Federico said:

I'm not a publisher I swear! :lol: (I love translators).

I'm afraid you're making some confusion, but anyway.

:lol:

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The ME isn't perfect but it never will be spot on in every aspect of the game. Either:

1) Put up with it and accept it

2) Try a different version of FM (Perhaps some older ones)

3) Stop playing it

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But we are allowed to comment surely Kodjia??

i can assure you if we stopped playing and stopped commenting then SI would get worried. We’re passionate about something that’s not great anymore that was great. I’m glad people choose not to put up with things! It shows we care!

 

 

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26 minutes ago, steam just is said:

But we are allowed to comment surely Kodjia??

i can assure you if we stopped playing and stopped commenting then SI would get worried. We’re passionate about something that’s not great anymore that was great. I’m glad people choose not to put up with things! It shows we care!

 

 

I agree with you but we have to accept that it will never be 100% perfect but I do understand where you are coming from :)

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Let's see

Real life, portuguese premier league, consecutive rounds

March 2  : Benfica - Moreirense. Shots : 26 - 7. Shots on target : 9 - 1. Goals scored : 1 - 1 (reality is broken)

March 7  : Vitoria Setubal - Benfica. Shots : 3 - 15. Shots on target : 2 - 6. Goals scored : 1 - 1 (definitely broken !)

(corona break)

June 4 Benfica - Tondela. Shots : 26 - 4. Shots on target : 5 - 0. Goals scored : 0 - 0 (i'll never buy this reality !)

Of course, there are people who wants to play "something-easy-and-funny-manager". And there are people who wants to play "football manager". And both are right.

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I have no issues with shots not equating to goals. That’s is completely part of the real life game and is why, for example, Chelsea and Inter Milan won the CL.

our key issue is with the quality of the match, and it’s something SI need to understand as it’s been really neglected in last few years. There are no variations in play in FM20. Its plays like a set of equations in which teams are competing to get the ball to their winger and then cross to the far post, whatever system you play. Obviously it is just a set of equations but dont let the audience know eh? Keep some mystery. I hope they fix it. The match should be the jewel in the crown- not something to be endured!

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17 minutes ago, steam just is said:

our key issue is with the quality of the match, and it’s something SI need to understand as it’s been really neglected in last few years. There are no variations in play in FM20. Its plays like a set of equations in which teams are competing to get the ball to their winger and then cross to the far post, whatever system you play. Obviously it is just a set of equations but dont let the audience know eh? Keep some mystery. I hope they fix it. The match should be the jewel in the crown- not something to be endured!

Maybe take a look at the other threads in the tactics forum? Just because you can only score using one way doesn't mean that others cannot score a variation of goals

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@gmati1998In most of those examples, you create very few clear cut chances - in fact in one of the games you win 1-0 when you haven't actually created a decent chance.  Anyone can shoot from distance and hit 30 shots a game, you're rarely hitting the target (%age-wise) and even less of the time creating CCC.  The game where you beat Charlton 3-2 is probably the worst result because you create 5 CCC and they don't but you still won.  In you 0-0 draw with Preston you created 0 CCC and they they created 2, so you could consider yourself lucky to win that one.

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3 hours ago, steam just is said:

I have no issues with shots not equating to goals. That’s is completely part of the real life game and is why, for example, Chelsea and Inter Milan won the CL.

our key issue is with the quality of the match, and it’s something SI need to understand as it’s been really neglected in last few years. There are no variations in play in FM20. Its plays like a set of equations in which teams are competing to get the ball to their winger and then cross to the far post, whatever system you play. Obviously it is just a set of equations but dont let the audience know eh? Keep some mystery. I hope they fix it. The match should be the jewel in the crown- not something to be endured!

To be fair, isn't that what teams do? They play in a particular way to score particular goals?

I've set my team in a very particular way in that I have a very fast skilful right winger who skins the full back and sends a cross in to the far post where I have a 6'7" IW and a 6'6" SC for him to aim for, so I score more goals in this way. However I also score goals from corners, free kicks, long shots, through balls, etc.

IRL, Man City score more goals by getting it to the play maker (Silva, Bernardo, De Bruyne) who play a ball between the full back and centre back for the winger (Sterling, Mahrez) who then slide a ball across for the Striker (Aguero, Jesus, other winger) to slot in. If you see that in a match, you'd say that's a Man City goal. 

So, I'd have to disagree that there a NO variations in play in FM 20. There are goals which will look similar, but there can only be so many permutations that the game itself can manage due to size of game, amount of animations etc.

No team will score an even amount of every type of goal, or carry out every type of attack, because teams play a particular tactic to defeat the opposition or play to their own strength.

I'd actually argue that "Its plays like a set of equations in which teams are competing to get the ball to their winger and then cross to the far post, whatever system you play." indicate the match engine works?

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5 minutes ago, Grifty said:

So, I'd have to disagree that there a NO variations in play in FM 20. There are goals which will look similar, but there can only be so many permutations that the game itself can manage due to size of game, amount of animations etc.

I agree. I'm really happy with variation of goals on FM20. When I look at my tactic currently with two wingers and one fullback on attack duty I would expect a large number of goals from crosses. But I also score a lot of goals with through balls and last season I actually scored more through balls then crosses.

Also I don't think people in this thread are trying to negate there is any issues with set pieces. At least I didn't see those kind of posts. I haven't read the whole thing.  Just that you can make some adjustments with the routines that can help you concede less. For me personally, the biggest issue I see with set pieces is Indirect Free Kicks from deep. There should be less chances coming from those kind of kicks. It doesn't happen that often but I just think they should be less dangerous then indirect free kick for wide position and sometimes it just don't feel like it is.

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19 minutes ago, Grifty said:

To be fair, isn't that what teams do? They play in a particular way to score particular goals?

I've set my team in a very particular way in that I have a very fast skilful right winger who skins the full back and sends a cross in to the far post where I have a 6'7" IW and a 6'6" SC for him to aim for, so I score more goals in this way. However I also score goals from corners, free kicks, long shots, through balls, etc.

IRL, Man City score more goals by getting it to the play maker (Silva, Bernardo, De Bruyne) who play a ball between the full back and centre back for the winger (Sterling, Mahrez) who then slide a ball across for the Striker (Aguero, Jesus, other winger) to slot in. If you see that in a match, you'd say that's a Man City goal. 

So, I'd have to disagree that there a NO variations in play in FM 20. There are goals which will look similar, but there can only be so many permutations that the game itself can manage due to size of game, amount of animations etc.

No team will score an even amount of every type of goal, or carry out every type of attack, because teams play a particular tactic to defeat the opposition or play to their own strength.

I'd actually argue that "Its plays like a set of equations in which teams are competing to get the ball to their winger and then cross to the far post, whatever system you play." indicate the match engine works?

Ok. So I completely agree you calling out no variations is right. Call it critics licence to exaggerate for effect. However this game feels like the match is very repetitious which isn’t a feeling ive had before with FM (albeit the feeling of concern about the match has been growing post 17).

there is a lack of variety. “Good football” is often two talented CMs passing it to each other about 10 times in the same position before the ball gets sent out yet again to the wide man. 

unfortunately the match was better a few years ago which is why it causes concern, and yes opinions differ. However there is a clear weight of opinion here that the match on FM is worsening.

one caveat is that I play on my iPad. Apparently it’s the same ME but SI have really compromised the graphics from a few years back so it feels worse anyway.
 

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37 minutes ago, Neil Brock said:

Can assure you there's been a significant amount of work going on with our match engine team over the past few versions to improve a whole host of aspects across the game. Notable the AI has been vastly improved, numerous animations have been added and the graphical side is constantly being worked on to increase the capabilities of what appears (all whilst still trying to keep those on lower-spec machines from being cut off).

Remember with the match engine it's a representation of football. It isn't 100% perfect. Each chance that happens is calculated based on all the many many factors which happen within the FM gameworld and match situation at that time. There is no difference between what can happen for the player or the AI - if there's such a thing as 'superkeepers' (which for the record we've seen nothing in the code to suggest this) then the AI would encounter it just as often as the player.

The player will always have an advantage over the AI because they have more freedom to think and experiment. We tend to find players use much more attacking and aggressive tactics as a whole, which can cause them to create more chances overall, but often leave themselves exposed at the back which means the AI get much easier chances on the counter attack. This can cause imbalanced match stats where a player has had lots of shots (not always from good positions) and not converted, where the AI has very few shots, but those they do have are from extremely good positions which are converted.

This is partly why our moderators use tactical reasoning as a starting point for issues raised on our forums. 

Everything influences the match, to the extent if I tried to list everything here it'd take an extremely long time.

Aside from the many external factors which can influence (weather, player morale, importance of match, referee, where the fixture takes place, whether the away team has had to travel a significant distance for the fixture etc) every single attribute (both hidden and visible) for every single player has it taken into account, but certain elements will change every time a match is 'replayed'. Absolutely there is a random element in game much like there is real life, whereby luck and chance will be involved.

For instance, your best player makes a costly mistake in the first minute of match one - this affects him with an instant drop in confidence and he has a poor game, struggling to find his form. In match two, he makes a key assist, gains confidence and plays exceptionally well. 

The role of the manager is to use all the elements they have at their disposal (player recruitment, tactics, form management, team talks etc) to make the best choices possible for each and every fixture. But even in doing so, even if you get everything absolutely perfect, in some instances you will still lose or draw a match you would expect to win. That is football in real life. That is also how it works in FM. The game does not 'decide' you are suddenly going to lose because it's programmed that way. You only win or lose depending on the hundreds of factors which go into every match which is then calculated in the match engine based on every single decision that happens. For every pass, each player will use their attributes (such as vision and decisions) to calculate all the available options for said pass. Higher the vision, more options available. Once in that split-second they've decided what pass to play, more attributes are used (such as passing, composure and technique) for the player to attempt said pass.  But even then other factors will determine whether the pass is successful - the other player's anticipation and positioning, whether the ball is played hard or soft and is affected by the wind, whether an opposing player has very high anticipation and decisions to intercept the ball. 

A huge number of calculations are used just for one pass. Now multiply that across the entire game for every single thing that happens in the match, there are thousands if not millions. And bear in mind for every single calculation the match engine does not determine any difference between the AI and the user player - this is not a factor taken into account. 

So when you ask what decides the result of the match, it's pretty much everything. Except whether the teams are AI controlled or user controlled. As this is not something used in any calculation. 

But all the above has to sit into the constraints of trying to produce an accurate representation of football. It's not an easy task and we've never claimed it is. But it's something we're extremely passionate about and work incredibly hard towards. Some people may feel the ME has become more restricted or predictable, but we disagree. The elements worked on under the hood are pretty extraordinary and whilst the payoff may not always be obvious to the casual observer, I can assure you the building blocks are in place to continue to make strides forward in making the game more realistic. 

Saying all of that (and I'm aware we're in TL;DR territory here), there are always going to be anomalies and matches where you get 'FM'd' - largely this is down to the point I made above; the general inclination of user to play attacking, expansive football compared to the AI's generally more conservative approach. But there will be occasions where someone is just plain unlucky. If you're being 'unlucky' a lot, there has to be a responsibility on the manager that there is something clearly not right. Now you may feel aggrieved if you feel this is less a 'football' mistake and more a 'match engine' mistake, but within your FM gameworld they are the same. We aim one day for the two things to be absolutely interchangeable and already we feel we're well on our way there. But without trying to speak disparagingly about older versions of the game (which I hasten to add I worked on), when you had a match engine where players could literally run through each other and pacy players ran amok, I don't think there's a real provable claim that it's a 'better' match engine.

To you personally you may find it more 'enjoyable' and everyone is entitled to an opinion. But this match engine is not 'broken' and it is (in our professional opinion) the most sophisticated we've ever produced. 

This has never been a personal criticism Neil so I hope you and your colleagues dont take it that way. As committed fans , We are stakeholders in the project And have a right to pass comment. I certainly have never doubted the diligence or brilliance of the people who have created such a magnificent game. i love Peep Show but i thought the last series wasn’t great, it doesn’t make the creators or actors any less brilliant.

you alluded to compromises and, as a high end iPad player, that has impacted the game experience negatively (the match looks worse than 3 years ago). 

I do wonder why there is a theme of discontent about the ME which isn’t replicated in-house. Genuinely are we missing something? Like you said previous versions had silly anomalies that have been wiped out. 

Maybe we’re becoming too demanding. I really dont know. I buy the game every year which is the biggest endorsement any fan can really offer. I am confused by the slight disconnect though. 

 

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Posted (edited)

I think big part of the frustration comes from how graphical engine portrays certain things, not the actual match engine being bad. I know FM has come a long way from being a text-only game, to now having thousands of unique 3D animations, but sad reality is the graphics are still far below the acceptable level for year 2020. But then again, understandably so, since SI refuse to leave old hardware behind and keep pandering to 15 y/o laptops in fear of losing those customers. Someone above mentioned the game is pretty much the same on iPads, which I think speaks volumes.

Personally, once I stopped watching highlights and started paying more attention to stats and analysis instead, I started enjoying the game much more. I no longer bang my head against the wall for every ridiculous looking goal I concede or a clear-cut looking chance I miss and instead go by what the actual text tells me. It's important to remember that's the main part of the game, graphics were only added on top of it recently and sadly they're not yet at a level where every highlight could be taken at face value. I've lost the count of the amount of times I've seen my CB having a turning circle of a truck, only to find out the mistake was actually attributed to my FB, who apparently made a bad pass.

I'm sure FM is the most realistic football simulation we can get, but sadly the graphical part of it is doing the whole game a huge disservice. It also causes confusion and frustration when players see things that make no sense, or look one way but are actually something completely different under the hood, which one must dive deep into analysis or text match report to find out. Sometimes you can't even tell the difference between a goalie mistake or a good finish, that's how wonky the animations can look; and I imagine all those 1 on 1 chances that look like clear goals, but aren't even counted as half chances, fall into the same category of graphics not representing the match engine accurately enough.

Edited by Zemahh

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Zemahh said:

I think big part of the frustration comes from how graphical engine portrays certain things, not the actual match engine being bad. I know FM has come a long way from being a text-only game, to now having thousands of unique 3D animations, but sad reality is the graphics are still far below the acceptable level for year 2020. But then again, understandably so, since SI refuse to leave old hardware behind and keep pandering to 15 y/o laptops in fear of losing those customers. Someone above mentioned the game is pretty much the same on iPads, which I think speaks volumes.

Personally, once I stopped watching highlights and started paying more attention to stats and analysis instead, I started enjoying the game much more. I no longer bang my head against the wall for every ridiculous looking goal I concede or a clear-cut looking chance I miss and instead go by what the actual text tells me. It's important to remember that's the main part of the game, graphics were only added on top of it recently and sadly they're not yet at a level where every highlight could be taken at face value. I've lost the count of the amount of times I've seen my CB having a turning circle of a truck, only to find out the mistake was actually attributed to my FB, who apparently made a bad pass.

I'm sure FM is the most realistic football simulation we can get, but sadly the graphical part of it is doing the whole game a huge disservice. It also causes confusion and frustration when players see things that make no sense, or look one way but are actually something completely different under the hood, which one must dive deep into analysis or text match report to find out. Sometimes you can't even tell the difference between a goalie mistake or a good finish, that's how wonky the animations can look; and I imagine all those 1 on 1 chances that look like clear goals, but aren't even counted as half chances, fall into the same category of graphics not representing the match engine accurately enough.

I like this POV. I'm new so didn't live through the good 'ol days, but based on how incredibly silly some of the highlights for conceded goals are, I have assumed it's just the 3d animation trying to tell the story of the preceding gameflow/stats/decisions/etc... and not being a great storyteller. You're never actually directly watching the action as it unfolds. I do have to remind myself that to avoid the frustration.

That said, some times I still get properly effed off :-) That you can smell 88min+ goals coming regardless of tactic or that my WB wins the ball up on the touchline and ignores the open IF 15yds in front of him to try and cross it back to the far side BPD at the top of my box while there are two opposing players there (who steal it and score) makes no sense in a 1000 Sundays. But it would be nice if there was a cheatsheet of common silly concede scenarios and what that means in regards to how the engine gets to that point. If the classic stop dribbling and tee up the ball to be stolen has a cause that makes sense that'd be helpful.

I am going to take your advice of looking at the text match report to  see going forward.

Edit: As a newb, all things being equal though I have thoroughly enjoyed my time playing the game so far and it's genuinely been a help to while away the evenings when locked up at home.

Edited by CaptCanuck

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On 18/06/2020 at 13:21, Svenc said:

No, I don't. I am just curious how anybody can bring up such simplistic stats as in the opening post and trigger a discussion how it were broken. It may well be broken, but none of these numbers, absolutely none in here, would show it. It's like when playing the game, developing a subjective eye has always massively trumped just looking at the stats alone. Plus, raw numbers may actually hide lots of actual bugs.

Re: Were you can check for shots on target: It's under the "match center" tab. If you click on "match center" and "total shots" there is a break-down

Re: I disagree that lots of SOT mean a keeper would be hammered, in particular as to FM. There were also quite a few of SOT in this vintage match for PSG (the Player is Ajaccio), but most of them are easy saves for the keeper. Indeed, one of the Problems since forever is that you can get many SOT that -- evidently -- aren't that converted that much into goals in-game, so the game cannot be perfect. :D 


 

 

The match engine is broken by the acknowledgement and existence of many exploitable tactics. Regardless of what you think of the OPs examples. No one can really deny this one :)

 

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11 minutes ago, Samurai Cake said:

 

The match engine is broken by the acknowledgement and existence of many exploitable tactics. Regardless of what you think of the OPs examples. No one can really deny this one :)

 

Therefore every CM/FM that has ever been released has a broken ME?

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On 19/06/2020 at 17:03, Zemahh said:

I think big part of the frustration comes from how graphical engine portrays certain things, not the actual match engine being bad. I know FM has come a long way from being a text-only game, to now having thousands of unique 3D animations, but sad reality is the graphics are still far below the acceptable level for year 2020. But then again, understandably so, since SI refuse to leave old hardware behind and keep pandering to 15 y/o laptops in fear of losing those customers. Someone above mentioned the game is pretty much the same on iPads, which I think speaks volumes.

Personally, once I stopped watching highlights and started paying more attention to stats and analysis instead, I started enjoying the game much more. I no longer bang my head against the wall for every ridiculous looking goal I concede or a clear-cut looking chance I miss and instead go by what the actual text tells me. It's important to remember that's the main part of the game, graphics were only added on top of it recently and sadly they're not yet at a level where every highlight could be taken at face value. I've lost the count of the amount of times I've seen my CB having a turning circle of a truck, only to find out the mistake was actually attributed to my FB, who apparently made a bad pass.

I'm sure FM is the most realistic football simulation we can get, but sadly the graphical part of it is doing the whole game a huge disservice. It also causes confusion and frustration when players see things that make no sense, or look one way but are actually something completely different under the hood, which one must dive deep into analysis or text match report to find out. Sometimes you can't even tell the difference between a goalie mistake or a good finish, that's how wonky the animations can look; and I imagine all those 1 on 1 chances that look like clear goals, but aren't even counted as half chances, fall into the same category of graphics not representing the match engine accurately enough.

Yeah I think a large chunk of the frustration with 1 on 1 chances are down to the animation too.

For example I just had a midfielder get into a good 1 on 1 position- not somewhere you'd say was a really clear cut chance but good enough. He missed. IRL this happens. However the way he missed was what made it infuriating- he was going at full pelt, running on to through ball, you'd expect him to put his laces through it. Instead it showed him basically side footing lightly into the keepers stomach. The animation made what would be a reasonable miss look like crap because of how it showed the finish. If he'd hit it with some power straight at the keeper or if he'd tried to place it to either side of the keeper but not hit it cleanly it would have looked believable.

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5 hours ago, Samurai Cake said:

 

The match engine is broken by the acknowledgement and existence of many exploitable tactics. Regardless of what you think of the OPs examples. No one can really deny this one :)

 

There is no exploit tactics for FM19 or FM20. 

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With all due respect ..... The identical sequences of goals (deep free kick into a player running to the far post, Corner pinball situation, Long range shots...etc ) should be addressed.

There are rarely any chipped goals, Player dribbling the gk, Different headed goals,Deflections,Lay offs by target men or a one two move that is a trademark of a certain playing style.

Every week on FM 20  I watch all the goals from the league games as highlights but it’s all the same goals over and over again, So silly and kills any immersion.

 

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On 19/06/2020 at 23:15, Neil Brock said:

The player will always have an advantage over the AI because they have more freedom to think and experiment. We tend to find players use much more attacking and aggressive tactics as a whole, which can cause them to create more chances overall, but often leave themselves exposed at the back which means the AI get much easier chances on the counter attack. This can cause imbalanced match stats where a player has had lots of shots (not always from good positions) and not converted, where the AI has very few shots, but those they do have are from extremely good positions which are converted.

 

Well, you can never say never. That is admitting defeat. Technology has come a long way, and I would love to see a much better AI in future versions

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3 hours ago, qwerty22 said:

With all due respect ..... The identical sequences of goals (deep free kick into a player running to the far post, Corner pinball situation, Long range shots...etc ) should be addressed.

There are rarely any chipped goals, Player dribbling the gk, Different headed goals,Deflections,Lay offs by target men or a one two move that is a trademark of a certain playing style.

Every week on FM 20  I watch all the goals from the league games as highlights but it’s all the same goals over and over again, So silly and kills any immersion.

 

Yeah, I havent seen a chipped goal since FM17, and that is like after 3500 hours of FM since that version, so that is disappointing. Variation in goals is severely lacking in FM20 but that is just my opinion :)

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Samurai Cake said:

 

The match engine is broken by the acknowledgement and existence of many exploitable tactics. Regardless of what you think of the OPs examples. No one can really deny this one :)

 


There's always been (oft illogical, and/or ridiculously aggressive) tactics that take Advantage of ME and AI weakness , which are making Player quality pretty irrelevant and fantasy overachievement the norm, and yes, FM 20 is no exception (see the download sections). I don't think there will ever be an exception to this by now. By that standard though, every release was broken, older ones even more so than current ones (Mighty Diablo et all). :D 

Edited by Svenc

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4 hours ago, Preveza said:

Yeah, I havent seen a chipped goal since FM17, and that is like after 3500 hours of FM since that version, so that is disappointing. Variation in goals is severely lacking in FM20 but that is just my opinion :)

here you go, mate

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Thats so pleasurable.

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40 minuti fa, vara ha scritto:

Lovely!

I feel puzzled though. I played 6 seasons a database from season 95-96, and I built a wonderteam, but the likes of Del Piero, Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Ronaldo or Crespo were never capable to something any near to this.

Out of curiosity, was your guy technically super?

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, Federico said:

Lovely!

I feel puzzled though. I played 6 seasons a database from season 95-96, and I built a wonderteam, but the likes of Del Piero, Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Ronaldo or Crespo were never capable to something any near to this.

Out of curiosity, was your guy technically super?

far from it. Im Belper in VNNorth and i have this player on loan from Atherton Collieries. so you can imagine ability. 

But also, consider opposition keeper is also of poor ability. So out of position opening the option of lob.

Edited by vara

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8 hours ago, qwerty22 said:

There are rarely any chipped goals, Player dribbling the gk, Different headed goals,Deflections,Lay offs by target men or a one two move that is a trademark of a certain playing style.

Chipped goals, player dribbling the GK, different headed goals, deflections are all rare like in real life but they are definitely there in the ME. Lay offs by target men and one two are quite common though so not sure what you are referring here.

 

8 hours ago, qwerty22 said:

Every week on FM 20  I watch all the goals from the league games as highlights but it’s all the same goals over and over again.

 

Try to watch any good team goals compilation end of the season and convince me that is not the case. But people only remember those wonder goals. It will be difficult to create a variation of goals if most teams play similar tactics and similar styles with similar players week in week out.

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30 minuti fa, vara ha scritto:

far from it. Im Belper in VNNorth and i have this player on loan from Atherton Collieries. so you can imagine ability. 

But also, consider opposition keeper is also of poor ability. So out of position opening the option of lob.

Yeah. To be honest chipping the ball in could be an option for the more talented and skilled players when they go for a 1v1, but this never ever happened to me.

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There is also a shots to goals conversation ratio problem.

Currently this year Dortmund are scoring from over 20% of their shots, and there are several clubs across Europe who have over 15%, yet in my game I, with a frontline of Haaland and Kane, have only a 14% shots to goals conversion rate, which is the best in the league.

For the AI, teams like Liverpool have 9% and Chelsea have just 7%, despite both having very good attackers (and still being in the top 4)

Barcelona have 9% as well, Real Madrid just 11%, Dortmund have 14%, Bayern Munich with Lewandoski still have just 10%. 

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4 hours ago, Federico said:

I played 6 seasons a database from season 95-96, and I built a wonderteam, but the likes of Del Piero, Zidane, Figo, Beckham, Ronaldo or Crespo were never capable to something any near to this.

I'd like to think finishing traits have an impact on this.

Quote

Likes To Lob Keeper: Increases the likelihood of a player looking to loft the ball over the goalkeeper when presented with a chance at goal.

Tries Tricks: This increases the chances of a player displaying more flair during matches and can result in a greater array of skills being used.

Editing those in editor and seeing just how many different animations you get to see would be an interesting experiment though.

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5 hours ago, vara said:

far from it. Im Belper in VNNorth and i have this player on loan from Atherton Collieries. so you can imagine ability. 

But also, consider opposition keeper is also of poor ability. So out of position opening the option of lob.

Really good point. If you're up against top flight keepers opportunities to lob them will be very rare.

That keeper your fella lobbed really was in no-mans land and likely doesn't have the double digit running/reflexes/jumping attributes required to leg it back. Thanks for the highlight :-)

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I tend to find that these sort of lop sided statistics are produced when players use the higher end of mentalities and have a lot of aggressive roles and duties in their formations. It gets further compounded when used against opponents on much lower mentalities.

Having loads of possession and a bunch of meaningless shots may be good for stroking one's ego but the reality is that without the goals to back it up you're just deluding yourself. Personally, I couldn't care less whether I have more possession and/or shots than the opposition, if I do then great (when I win that is usually the case) but if I don't then so what. All I care about is winning the game and doing whatever is necessary to improve my chances of that happening. If you can't consistently beat teams with inferior players then there is something wrong with the way you are managing the team. Whether it's a tactical issue or a man management one there is something off.

There appears to be a real reluctance among some to actually do any managing which I find quite baffling considering this is a management game.

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