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_Ben_

[FM20] Voltaço

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1 hour ago, _Ben_ said:

Funny that his long shots are only rated at 8 though!

I wonder what his technique is like.

I had a player who had 7-8 for Long Shots, but had really good Technique. He scored quite a lot of goals from outside the area, purely (I reckon) because he was given time on the ball to line his shots up (opposition teams usually packed the box against us).

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2029 Copa Guanabara (Carioca Turn One)

6be96aa7ffc3c52d829a5d6c367ca7b2.png

I love the State Championships!

There is nothing like some easy competitive football to start the season off with! We have, yet, again, performed really well and have taken four points from the big teams (although we are now in the same division as they are). We sit atop the overall table and will face off against Group B winners Fluminense in the Guanabara final - knowing a victory puts us in the hat for the grand final at the end of turn two.

Both Lorran Periera Santos and Joao Fernando missed the first four games whilst they were away with the Brazil U20 squad but that latter has come back and netted twice in two games, in what I hope is his breakout season.

I'll recap the final in a separate post...

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4 hours ago, turnip said:

I wonder what his technique is like.

I had a player who had 7-8 for Long Shots, but had really good Technique. He scored quite a lot of goals from outside the area, purely (I reckon) because he was given time on the ball to line his shots up (opposition teams usually packed the box against us).

c90068b5dac15d5a648ffab2e99edd37.png

He's very much a holding midfielder (except for the one game experiment as a Pressing Forward!) and there is nothing to indicate that he should, regularly, be smashing them in from 20 yards!

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Posted (edited)

2029 Copa Guanabara Final

120cba3f6a16954fbf593c7ae7185a3b.png

Every time I've made it to the final of one of the two turns, I have faced a completely different side to what I've faced in the groups - not personnel but how they play and how they are motivated. The Fluminense team that we dispatched, with ease, not two weeks ago, were strong and worried us. However, we still played our normal game and were unlucky a few times, although I don't think I could say that we would have deserved a victory. Two last gasp stops by Edilson took us to penalties.

Once the penalties started - Edilson was once again my hero, saving three good Fluminense takers and winning us the crown.

---

Now, confusing Brazilian rules:

  • If we win the next turn (the Copa Rio) there is no Final and we win the State Champ with second placed in the league being the runner up.
  • If we qualify, and lose the final of the next turn - there will be a one-off final against the winner of that game to decide the State Champ winner.
  • If we come 2nd to 6th in the next turn, we will still be in the final to decide the State Champ winner.

This could be a lovely chance to rotate some players...

---

c8ff2a58d53379c83cb47497529ea04a.png

However - my first competition win (italics as it's not listed as an actual achievement...)

Edited by _Ben_

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Welcoming period

Works again! I really didn't know the influence of it until I read it in @That There Phil's thread!

Magno, who started as a Pro, has now moved to a Model Pro as well as his Determination rising to 14.

436303c6937257945eec35d57fd5647e.png

He's joining quite a good group of players, too.

4fe2d08bed4c9fdca3b842785fb4ae15.png

 

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6 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

Welcoming period

Works again! I really didn't know the influence of it until I read it in @That There Phil's thread!

Magno, who started as a Pro, has now moved to a Model Pro as well as his Determination rising to 14.

436303c6937257945eec35d57fd5647e.png

He's joining quite a good group of players, too.

4fe2d08bed4c9fdca3b842785fb4ae15.png

 

I'm glad to see it's working for you. I've been a big fan of this thread from the start, so it's nice to think I might have helped in some small way.

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Il y a 10 heures, _Ben_ a dit :

He's joining quite a good group of players, too.

When I see such team cores, it immediately takes me back to the 90s and 2000s.. I can't see myself say a bad word in a locker room with the likes of Maldini, Desailly, Vieira, Nesta, Buffon and so on next to me...

Congratulations on your first win! I wish I took the time to understand the Brazilian rules, but it's just too much  :D

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2 hours ago, Toffle said:

When I see such team cores, it immediately takes me back to the 90s and 2000s.. I can't see myself say a bad word in a locker room with the likes of Maldini, Desailly, Vieira, Nesta, Buffon and so on next to me...

Congratulations on your first win! I wish I took the time to understand the Brazilian rules, but it's just too much  :D

Thanks for this particular comment - it's really made me think about my 'team' in terms of the core.

These are currently my best players in terms of ability and personality/influence/leadership:

ccbb2aa091457e0e0c76ae3bed4ae6c1.png

And this is how that looks when their positions are selected:

d55f000908cfafb91481558e1c0563fb.png

---

It is some way off perfect:

  • Edilson hasn't joined a social group yet.
  • Magno isn't quite the star player that I'd really like in their.
  • Geilton may turn to a M.Pro when he gets to 23 but isn't there yet.
  • Joao Fernando is under a lot of pressure to have a team ethos built around him at just 17.
  • Joao Fernando and Magno's leadership skills are very poor but I don't really know how much impact they'd have.
  • Joao Fernando doesn't have much influence over the rest of the team.
  • Magno doesn't have as much experience in competitive games as I'd like.
  • Magno's determination is slightly lower than I'd like
  • There is nobody in the DM strata who has the leadership qualities that I'd like,

However - I am working towards the goal of a strong set of players as well as a good set of players!

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13 hours ago, That There Phil said:

I'm glad to see it's working for you. I've been a big fan of this thread from the start, so it's nice to think I might have helped in some small way.

Many thanks!

I've always really focused on the generation of Model Citizens rather than the development to Model Citizens - so I'm really keen to learn from how you're doing it. However - starting at a lower level, with less player quality, has meant that it's hard to get the initial team set up in place, as you've done. I feel like I'm getting there, though!

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3 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

Many thanks!

I've always really focused on the generation of Model Citizens rather than the development to Model Citizens - so I'm really keen to learn from how you're doing it. However - starting at a lower level, with less player quality, has meant that it's hard to get the initial team set up in place, as you've done. I feel like I'm getting there, though!

Yeah, for my model, getting multiple model citizens in early is crucial, so I don't think you could do it in such an extreme way starting lower down the leagues. What I'm doing is designed to push the mentoring model and test its limits though, yours is definitely a much more realistic way to do it.

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4 minutes ago, That There Phil said:

Yeah, for my model, getting multiple model citizens in early is crucial, so I don't think you could do it in such an extreme way starting lower down the leagues. What I'm doing is designed to push the mentoring model and test its limits though, yours is definitely a much more realistic way to do it.

I would agree that it's harder. Below are the only Model Citizens who are interested in joining me:

14ef7c3b5f088d4830434e37b9974cae.png

Not a single player who is a) good enough and b) established in a good team.

--

In terms of pushing the system, I must admit to doing that with my coaching team in order to try and influence the newgens' personality.

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2 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

In terms of pushing the system, I must admit to doing that with my coaching team in order to try and influence the newgens' personality.

It's only the HOYD that affects newgen personalities though, right? The personality of the rest of the coaching staff doesn't have an effect as far as I know.

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Just now, That There Phil said:

It's only the HOYD that affects newgen personalities though, right? The personality of the rest of the coaching staff doesn't have an effect as far as I know.

You say that...

But I did some experimenting last year and found that (by 'found that' I mean I think I found out and have no concrete evidence) the personalities were much more positive when all of the youth coaches had good personalities. However, there are many factors that changed over the course of time, such as facilities, club reputation, coaching badges for my HOYD etc.

If there is no impact - then I, at least, feel that I'm building the backroom staff around the ethos that I'm using for the playing staff...

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11 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

You say that...

But I did some experimenting last year and found that (by 'found that' I mean I think I found out and have no concrete evidence) the personalities were much more positive when all of the youth coaches had good personalities. However, there are many factors that changed over the course of time, such as facilities, club reputation, coaching badges for my HOYD etc.

If there is no impact - then I, at least, feel that I'm building the backroom staff around the ethos that I'm using for the playing staff...

Interesting stuff. I always recruit coaching staff based on stars, only using personality as a deciding factor if stars are the same. The fact that we don't know stuff like this really frustrates me. There's so much conjecture and rumour around the game. Yesterdays 'Wednesday Wisdom' article on the Football Manager site claimed that consistency and important matches increases as a player gets older and plays more games, but I'm convinced that isn't true.

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3 minutes ago, That There Phil said:

Interesting stuff. I always recruit coaching staff based on stars, only using personality as a deciding factor if stars are the same. The fact that we don't know stuff like this really frustrates me. There's so much conjecture and rumour around the game. Yesterdays 'Wednesday Wisdom' article on the Football Manager site claimed that consistency and important matches increases as a player gets older and plays more games, but I'm convinced that isn't true.

In some ways I quite like the not knowing! For example, when I played with 2D - I'd be able to use my own understanding of player controls, saves etc to see what they were doing.

In terms of the consistency, I don't know if I have enough data to argue it but I'd argue that it should happen. Players play more and, as such, find their level. There will be an unknown about how the play in big games if they've never played in one before. However, to me, that should indicate that it goes both ways - e.g. plays three big games and is poor in each of them = not good in big games?!

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Carioca State Final

 

ba098e7ef65d198ff698eef2e2ada97e.png

A valiant effort but not quite enough to beat a Flamengo side, who, like Fluminense before them, are a completely different kettle of fish in knockout games. We were largely equal throughout the first half but their quality shone through - even if we conceded, again, to a whipped cross.

This is the second time we have finished runners up - the first was back in 2025 when Flamengo won both Turns and, as such, the runners up medal was awarded to the second placed team in the league phase, us.

---

It's been a really fun competition and who doesn't like scoring an average of nearly 4 a game - but I think next year onward may see a shift to using this competition as purely a youth development program. A lot will depend on our league situation for that though.

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Posted (edited)

Cup drama

1fd856971f7b6ee613523938ad58fd02.png

We shouldn't have let Operario score in 90+3 but, with just 15 seconds of time left, we've grabbed an equaliser.

EDIT: We've lost the shootout...

d3e86819483a6477464ecc0aece538a5.png

Probably what we deserve for failing to dispose of a Serie B team over two legs.

Edited by _Ben_

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1 minute ago, _Ben_ said:

In some ways I quite like the not knowing! For example, when I played with 2D - I'd be able to use my own understanding of player controls, saves etc to see what they were doing.

In terms of the consistency, I don't know if I have enough data to argue it but I'd argue that it should happen. Players play more and, as such, find their level. There will be an unknown about how the play in big games if they've never played in one before. However, to me, that should indicate that it goes both ways - e.g. plays three big games and is poor in each of them = not good in big games?!

I understand that, and I agree to a certain extent. I just think there needs to be a balance, and for me the balance is slightly too far towards keeping players in the dark about some pretty basic stuff at the moment. 

I completely agree that consistency and important matches should be dynamic and able to rise or fall depending on performances - at least in young players (very much like determination), I'm just not convinced that they are, so it's weird to see it referenced on the FM site (albeit in an article written by someone outside of SI).

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1 hour ago, _Ben_ said:

You say that...

But I did some experimenting last year and found that (by 'found that' I mean I think I found out and have no concrete evidence) the personalities were much more positive when all of the youth coaches had good personalities. However, there are many factors that changed over the course of time, such as facilities, club reputation, coaching badges for my HOYD etc.

If there is no impact - then I, at least, feel that I'm building the backroom staff around the ethos that I'm using for the playing staff...

I found some information in an old topic with Seb confirming that ALL staff members could have an influence. i'll try to find the topic.

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Serie A debut

b0d5e7e3a89f6cc1057bee97fd4dd5ca.png

Not a bad start! 

In what will be the normal - we allowed Paranaense to come at us and hit them on the break with a hatrick from Joao Fernando. Speaking of which, it is amazing what a good run in the team can do for someones confidence in front of goal:

5d1af4b1349e7b5fde10669f6e520a47.png

---

I'm taking division, reputation, home grown status etc away here - Joao Fernando is just a pretty good 17-year-old!

168bbe2c4995944b72f4e3307ff5fdd1.png

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Fernando is going to be great. Combination of his physicality, work rate and technicality will make him a handful.

Ibrahimovic is probably the most comparable sort of player I can think of

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16 minutes ago, Fosse said:

Fernando is going to be great. Combination of his physicality, work rate and technicality will make him a handful.

Ibrahimovic is probably the most comparable sort of player I can think of

I know - I think he's going to be one of the most prized young Brazilian's for the next couple of years...

The Ibra comparison is spot on to be fair! I started a new save to export his attributes to compare:

cd09178b31b0a47fbe9e27df840c3dc6.png

Not quite as strong but works a lot harder than a 37-year old Zlatan. When searching for his best attributes as the filter, the other player that popped up was Bruno Petkovic. Most interestingly though, is when I make a filter of his top attributes:

  • Finishing: 14
  • First Touch: 17
  • Technique: 17
  • Flair: 17
  • Vision: 16
  • Agility: 14

The only players to match at least those numbers are the below players:

d3aa42b6c27c0e28983fd6ab0b04f298.png

Not sure many of those have done much in their careers...

  •  

 

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2 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

I know - I think he's going to be one of the most prized young Brazilian's for the next couple of years...

The Ibra comparison is spot on to be fair! I started a new save to export his attributes to compare:

cd09178b31b0a47fbe9e27df840c3dc6.png

Not quite as strong but works a lot harder than a 37-year old Zlatan. When searching for his best attributes as the filter, the other player that popped up was Bruno Petkovic. Most interestingly though, is when I make a filter of his top attributes:

  • Finishing: 14
  • First Touch: 17
  • Technique: 17
  • Flair: 17
  • Vision: 16
  • Agility: 14

The only players to match at least those numbers are the below players:

d3aa42b6c27c0e28983fd6ab0b04f298.png

Not sure many of those have done much in their careers...

  •  

 

He’s still only 17 so strength will only increase you’d think. I wouldn’t be overly surprised if he ended up with 14 or maybe 15.

His heading is a bit disappointing, it happens far too often with newgens where you get a big unit with truly terrible heading (not that all tall players are inherently good but most are). His bravery might compensate for that to some degree, he’s going to be winning a lot of headers, they’ll just be a bit directionless...

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1 minute ago, Fosse said:

He’s still only 17 so strength will only increase you’d think. I wouldn’t be overly surprised if he ended up with 14 or maybe 15.

His heading is a bit disappointing, it happens far too often with newgens where you get a big unit with truly terrible heading (not that all tall players are inherently good but most are). His bravery might compensate for that to some degree, he’s going to be winning a lot of headers, they’ll just be a bit directionless...

I've not really worked on his strength as I imagine that'll grow naturally.

Heading is completely right! He's getting into good positions and will get his head in the way but really lacks the ability to direct his header. He could have had, so far, another ten career goals I reckon if his heading was better!

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6 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

I've not really worked on his strength as I imagine that'll grow naturally.

Heading is completely right! He's getting into good positions and will get his head in the way but really lacks the ability to direct his header. He could have had, so far, another ten career goals I reckon if his heading was better!

Headed goals seem to be part of the meta this year. During a pentagon save in South Africa I had an appalling LM but he was 6’5 so won games by virtue of just being massive and scoring headers at the back post 

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Joao has everything it takes to become a wonderkid! He's going to bring a lot of money to the club for sure  :thup:

Even if he's already banging goals in the forward position, I feel like he would be even greater as number 10. The combination of its PPMs, world-class technique and vision, great decisions, off-the-ball, finishing and long shots.. That'd be hell of nice! But can't deny the kid is a very veryy promising striker too!

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5 minutes ago, Toffle said:

Joao has everything it takes to become a wonderkid! He's going to bring a lot of money to the club for sure  :thup:

Even if he's already banging goals in the forward position, I feel like he would be even greater as number 10. The combination of its PPMs, world-class technique and vision, great decisions, off-the-ball, finishing and long shots.. That'd be hell of nice! But can't deny the kid is a very veryy promising striker too!

I have been thinking about this over the past few days and I think you're right! I moved him in up top and shoe-horned Maicon in on the left as an inside forward but I actually think that a trio of him as an AP (bringing those attributes you say), Maicon on the left and then a Ronaldo-esque pacy, strong dribbling striker up top could be carnage!

I have to develop that player though, first!

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Serie A: too easy?

a4662949de1eac2ab95e576c22408005.png

Not sure what is going on here...

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Ruthless

We're developing into a side that is absolutely ruthless in transition, breaking really quickly. However - thing would look even better if Joao Fernando somehow didn't miss these two:

631e19f84077a130d2559c7302878e5d.png

72c7b9c93e0d1e9b74a83aa9eb44f26e.png

Both literally straight into the keepers arms!

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I've been following this thread with great interest. Your experiments with training youngsters made me think, so I did my own experiment in my save. I took five players on the U19 team: all are 17 years old, all are balanced mentality and media-friendly, with the same potential (in this case, not much). Three of them had 13 determination and two of them had 4. So applied the following training regime for a season:

 

 

Determination

Specific role & duty training

Individual focus

Player 1

13

yes

no

Player 2

13

no

yes

Player 3

13

yes

yes

Player 4

4

yes

no

Player 5

4

no

yes

 

My findings:

0. Player with higher determination progress better (we already know that)

1. Sole individual focus training will significantly improve those attributes we focus on. The rest of the attributes are of the widest range possible and improve moderately, if at all.

2. Sole role & duty training will improve those attributes that come with the role more or less equally and more significantly than "playing position training".

3. Combining them will give you the best of both worlds, while taking away a bit from both of them, meaning the impact is a tad less significant than when only one of the is applied, but it does give you the greatest overall improvement.

4. Use only individual focus if you have an already good all-around player for the role with one or two glaring weaknesses.

5. Use only role & duty training if you want steady improvement for a number of attributes you find important, without the need for "damage control".

6. Use both for your future superstars, those few long-term projects that deserve special attention.

 

This has been a single season experiment, so the data is obviously far from comprehensive. Hopefully though, it gives another angle to consider and investigate further. I didn't mean to hijack your thread, but thought this was the best place to post my experiments. KUTGW.

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High Praise

8f391ee67133e28b92f9fbd7c5e458a4.png

Maybe a little soon for this though...

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14 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

I've been following this thread with great interest.

Thank you for your comment!

Let me unpick a few things you've said:

14 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Player with higher determination progress better (we already know that)

Are professionalism and ambition the save, too? 

15 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Sole individual focus training will significantly improve those attributes we focus on. The rest of the attributes are of the widest range possible and improve moderately, if at all.

I have found this, definitely. I've got two or three points progress over a year in the focus but little on anything else, except physical attributes as they grow naturally with youngsters.

15 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Use only role & duty training if you want steady improvement for a number of attributes you find important, without the need for "damage control".

I've found that moving my players to a role once I've ironed out their weaker areas has worked really well. From 21+, most of my players are now on roles yet looking through the youth squads, very few are - because a lot have, like you alluded to, those glaring weaknesses.

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The Academy: Progress so far

The below players are now settled in the first team so, over the next few months, and in between game updates and various other match action - I'll be reviewing their progress:

ae949a8f8a0e5d464ce829ce84fa2f80.png

I must say that I am really happy that I've been able to bring through this amount of players so early in the save!

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April/May 2029

be14709f488e7ad556349fcf7924a4cd.png

Honestly, this is absurd! I do not know how we have started so well!

As I said - we started off showing the league what we can do with our counter attacking skills, sitting back against a Paranaense side that have won all but one of their other games - they are a good side! We then drew the only game I thought we'd actually win - against a Vasco team that we regularly match in the Carioca State. A whirlwind thirty minutes away at fellow relegation candidates Avai demonstrated that the 5-0 win that secured our Serie B promotion last year was not a fluke, and we looked very close to repeating that against giants Flamengo. We raced into a three goal lead but Jorge Sampaoli motivated his men and they scored twice inside ten minutes just after the hour mark. It was a nervy ten minutes but a lovely worked goal from Joao Fernando gave us the points. We then followed that up with a strong win over Ceara.

---

Right now teams are giving us far too much! We are facing suicidally high defensive lines, pressing from the front that we can use a back six to bypass and team talks that are leaving their players uninterested. I know that we are the underdogs but we are currently thriving in this situation. We'll hit a wall - definitely but, now, 13th is the target as that, in this ludicrous system, qualifies us for continental competition. 

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Wow, Ben! So glad that I've stumbled over this thread. I usually lurk in other areas of the forum but decided to explore the game updates threads tonight, and I'm glad I did! I seem to remember reading your stuff on the old Dugout forum too. 

Going really well here with Volta. I've bookmarked your Beira-Mar save and will take a read through that. 

Reading this has given me the impetus to sign up here and comment, it's also inspired my new save. Yonathan Salinas Campos, a Venezuelan manager, managing Pontevedra, a Tier 3 club based in Galicia, Spain. I'm going to focus on Venezuelan and Galician players, I may venture into northern Portugal too as that area has close ties to Galicia. 

All the best for continued success.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

Are professionalism and ambition the save, too? 

There is nothing in their visible data to suggest they differ vastly on ambition or professionalism. I can't be sure, of course.

I do believe that determination is still king, though. Of all the players on my U19 team, the one that has made the greatest progress is a player who's driven  (det 18) and media-friendly. I reckon if he had particularly high levels of profeesionalism  and/or ambition, he'd be a perfectionist or resolute and had different media handling. I've had him on specific role/duty training without individual focus.

Edited by Enzo_Francescoli

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Great updates. I enjoy this thread because it's fun to see your progress and I also get to learn a lot :brock:

One question, if I was to get one or two model citizens in for mentoring purposes. How would I know whether they'll fit into the general dynamic and quickly become influential players? I suppose need to also ensure that they have a good reputation? 

BTW the striker Fernando looks amazing. Such a good all rounder. 

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11 hours ago, Campos said:

Wow, Ben! So glad that I've stumbled over this thread. I usually lurk in other areas of the forum but decided to explore the game updates threads tonight, and I'm glad I did! I seem to remember reading your stuff on the old Dugout forum too. 

Going really well here with Volta. I've bookmarked your Beira-Mar save and will take a read through that. 

Reading this has given me the impetus to sign up here and comment, it's also inspired my new save. Yonathan Salinas Campos, a Venezuelan manager, managing Pontevedra, a Tier 3 club based in Galicia, Spain. I'm going to focus on Venezuelan and Galician players, I may venture into northern Portugal too as that area has close ties to Galicia. 

All the best for continued success.

Thank you so much for the kind words! The Dugout seems like a long time ago - but that place was great at it's peak. What was your username?

Without sounding too much like a 'oh, I've already done that' - check out my Guadalajara thread where I was a Paraguayan manager doing pretty much the same thing. One recommendation is that you load the Venezuelan leagues (especially as they aren't formed correctly in the vanilla database) to get better access to newgens and the like!

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11 hours ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

There is nothing in their visible data to suggest they differ vastly on ambition or professionalism. I can't be sure, of course.

I do believe that determination is still king, though. Of all the players on my U19 team, the one that has made the greatest progress is a player who's driven  (det 18) and media-friendly. I reckon if he had particularly high levels of profeesionalism  and/or ambition, he'd be a perfectionist or resolute and had different media handling. I've had him on specific role/duty training without individual focus.

It's exactly why I hate Balanced so much!

My opinion on professionalism is that it is the king of all hidden attributes and that as long as Determination is good, that's all that matters. Take the Model Citizen personality, for example - it only requires 14 in Determination, yet Professional requires 18, at minimum, in Professionalism - which means it should be harder to attain and, as such, more 'potent.' 

Obviously, it's an opinion for a reason!

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4 hours ago, karanhsingh said:

Great updates. I enjoy this thread because it's fun to see your progress and I also get to learn a lot :brock:

One question, if I was to get one or two model citizens in for mentoring purposes. How would I know whether they'll fit into the general dynamic and quickly become influential players? I suppose need to also ensure that they have a good reputation? 

BTW the striker Fernando looks amazing. Such a good all rounder. 

Thank you!

Ok - so there are no guarantees - but you'll want to get players with higher reputations (look at the stars on their information to gauge your level to theirs) and players who will have influential roles - e.g. can you make them a captain or a vice-captain?

I'm very excited about Fernando and I'm actually looking at building him into a Shadow Striker kind of role - although I don't want to get too attached as he'll more than likely be snapped up by a European team before too long, given the interest in him.

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I’ve long thought that a player’s professionalism should be a bit more obvious in game. You’re the manager you (virtually) work with these players every day and you know who trains well by seeing them and talking to them. Obviously you have no idea about other teams’ players professionalism rating but with your own it should a bit more explicit than tidbits from their personality, media handling style and coach report - it’s a roundabout way to get information you would already know as a manager 

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52 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

It's exactly why I hate Balanced so much!

My opinion on professionalism is that it is the king of all hidden attributes and that as long as Determination is good, that's all that matters. Take the Model Citizen personality, for example - it only requires 14 in Determination, yet Professional requires 18, at minimum, in Professionalism - which means it should be harder to attain and, as such, more 'potent.' 

Obviously, it's an opinion for a reason!

Once again, you made me curious, so I went to my youth only save, where I have the in-game editor switched on (just in case I want to check things exactly like this). I tried to identify players who have relatively major gaps between their scores of determination and professionalism. Now, it is inexact science and there is probably a lot more to it, but I've concluded that determination beats professionalism as the single most important attribute for player development. I've screenshotted the players, but don't want to flood your thread with images from a different save, unless you're okay with it.

I also wonder if there's any significant difference between the development of two model citizens on different sides of the determination spectrum..

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52 minutes ago, Enzo_Francescoli said:

Now, it is inexact science and there is probably a lot more to it, but I've concluded that determination beats professionalism as the single most important attribute for player development.

I spent 15+ seasons gathering intake progress data and my data sample, below, shows that the personalities that are largely governed by high professionalism have done considerably better:

c1d6b13db9841d46eb6f28a3a4efe9d0.png

Compare Model Citizen/Pro/F.Pro/Resolute (where you know Professionalism is at least 15) to Driven and F.Det (the only two in that list where we know Determination as, for some reason, I never had a 'Determined' player) and you'll see that progress is, on average better. N.B - you'll note Perfectionist (where Det and Pro are both greater than 14) but I will omit that as I only had one player to provide data for it.

By all means private message me those players but, again, in my opinion (backed up with my 167 data captures - which I know isn't a huge amount) professionalism is the leading attribute for player development.

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1 hour ago, Fosse said:

I’ve long thought that a player’s professionalism should be a bit more obvious in game. You’re the manager you (virtually) work with these players every day and you know who trains well by seeing them and talking to them. Obviously you have no idea about other teams’ players professionalism rating but with your own it should a bit more explicit than tidbits from their personality, media handling style and coach report - it’s a roundabout way to get information you would already know as a manager 

I agree! You work with people and you kind of get an idea of how they approach their job so I think that this should be similar - even if it's a band (like morale, maybe).

I do have the editor installed as it was the only way I found to change some of the kits and I believe I can use it to see hidden attributes - but I don't really have any interest in doing so...

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Player Development: Marcio Ricardo

3b45b1daa27118c4b0ce4dba7f165ba4.png

It's been four years since Marcio came to the club and he's been developing away and has made 81 appearances for me. However - my ethos for this club is to become, for the time being, a selling club so that a) I can get enough money to invest in the infrastructure and b) I have space to develop new players.

A big thing to notice is that Ricardo was Balanced/Level-Headed and is now Professional/Level Headed - meaning that his Professionalism has risen from, at worst, 12, to now at least 18 - but could be 20 as he's not old enough to be a Model Pro.

Here is his attribute development:

2e113d3402a2b78b4ece59d2c67a315b.png

So this is '1.5* better off' and, to be fair, he's a lot more rounded than before. He's still not good at heading, but can at least jump a little better and is a little taller. Mentally, he's improved well - Decisions, Concentration, and Anticipation have vastly improved and he's bulked up a little bit, too. 

However, whilst heading isn't everything and sometimes, for a defender, their physical presence is enough - I still see Ricardo being bullied or beaten to the ball too easily. He's not technical enough to be utilised anywhere else and, at 20 with a reducing PA star rating (I know it doesn't count for much, but at least it's an idea to use as part of my explanation), I can see that he's not going to iron out those weaknesses, really.

Verdict: Good off-field development but probably not a Brasiliero centre back!

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Player Development: Lorran Periera Santos

8aeb2ca5db0b8cbb3bc9737c0374ae60.png

LI thought it'd be a good comparison to look at Santos and Ricardo at the same kind of time. Below was Santos when he generated and, at 17, was one of the older players I started with. He was Fairly Pro but has converted that to being Pro right now.

2df8b821da895c9aa4db468a0dd65f80.png

He too has come on quite a bit - probably more so than Ricardo. He's still quite limited in his ball playing ability and, like Ricardo is quite small and now great at heading - which is a worry for me.  However, he is developing quite well and has held down a starting birth.

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47 minutes ago, _Ben_ said:

I spent 15+ seasons gathering intake progress data and my data sample, below, shows that the personalities that are largely governed by high professionalism have done considerably better:

c1d6b13db9841d46eb6f28a3a4efe9d0.png

Compare Model Citizen/Pro/F.Pro/Resolute (where you know Professionalism is at least 15) to Driven and F.Det (the only two in that list where we know Determination as, for some reason, I never had a 'Determined' player) and you'll see that progress is, on average better. N.B - you'll note Perfectionist (where Det and Pro are both greater than 14) but I will omit that as I only had one player to provide data for it.

By all means private message me those players but, again, in my opinion (backed up with my 167 data captures - which I know isn't a huge amount) professionalism is the leading attribute for player development.

Great ! Spirited is much lower on my list but u only have data from one player ? Spirited has high Prof. so u could be right.

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2 minutes ago, OlivierL said:

Great ! Spirited is much lower on my list but u only have data from one player ? Spirited has high Prof. so u could be right.

For the vast majority of my discussions around this, I have excluded the likes of Spirited and Perfectionist as I just don't have enough data. Below is the cut down version the above table that I would say reflects better on overall data capture:

40215be6531fa244bab99123b772584e.png
 

What validates this, for me, is that the data captures in my current save (using a different metric but still measuring the same thing), are very similar. Again, not much data but those where I have had plenty of players are showing a similar trend of 'known high professionalism = positive growth'

3d85739c0046c6547eeada9b9768ff93.png

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I know I've moved from "determination" based signings (player and staff) to more "professionalism" based signings based on reading your threads.

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