Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community

Recommended Posts

What is up with set pieces on this game? Literally 90% of goals I concede are from set pieces, with the other 10% being random long shots.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After a few seasons of testing various defending and attacking set piece routines, I now rarely concede from corners and score quite a few myself.

I also like a tall player who are good in the air, so that helps for these circumstances.

You're not going to get much of answer with what you are given us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sheer number of set peices I am conceding is unrealistic. I should not have to fiddle round w/ routines for seasons upon seasons to finally stumble upon something which nerfs the clear bugs in the ME/code. 

The game is literally unplayable for me at the moment because of this...+ reading around these forums, a lot of people mention the same issue, so I doubt this isn't a huge bug.

Add on top of this the fact that creating routines is wayyy to time consuming / complex (for me at least)...look at the no. of permutations you have to set up to just for free kicks, its just silly...& even when you do, the AI still score

I played fm07-12 religously. Picked fm20 up due to COVID & the ME overall is just soooo not enjoyable vs. what I remember which makes the rest of the game (which is great) unplayable. Waste of £35

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want a pick up and play game, football manager is not the game for you I'm afraid. The fact that you decide that stumbling upon something with nerfs the bugs shows that you don't really know what you're talking about... I would watch at corners and set pieces to see where my team was conceding chances from, change who was stood where to counter this.

Take off get stuck in and you should concede less free kicks to concede from.

Just because you don't understand the tactics, it's not the games fault it's too advanced for you to adapt.

Luckily for you it seems the lockdown rules are being relaxed so you won't have to play it much longer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

The sheer number of set peices I am conceding is unrealistic. I should not have to fiddle round w/ routines for seasons upon seasons to finally stumble upon something which nerfs the clear bugs in the ME/code. 

What...? You shouldn't have to try new things to improve the defensive set pieces? How on earth do you then suggest you should improve them? Press the "Win now"-button?

11 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

The game is literally unplayable for me at the moment because of this...+ reading around these forums, a lot of people mention the same issue, so I doubt this isn't a huge bug.

Hyperbole. If the game is unplayable then why is one of the most played games on Steam currently (7th currently)?

12 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

Add on top of this the fact that creating routines is wayyy to time consuming / complex (for me at least)...look at the no. of permutations you have to set up to just for free kicks, its just silly...& even when you do, the AI still score

The basic routines are perfectly usable, but if you want to get a bit more out of it, then micro management is needed, as in every other comparable game. The basic ones are usable, but you can do better if you bother to do it yourself.

14 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

I played fm07-12 religously. Picked fm20 up due to COVID & the ME overall is just soooo not enjoyable vs. what I remember which makes the rest of the game (which is great) unplayable. Waste of £35

If you enjoyed those games more, then play them instead. I loved the old CoD games, but despise the new ones, so I stick to playing the old ones and don't buy the new ones. It's as simple as that.

In all honesty, the FM20 have a couple of issues with the match engine, but for the most part, those are possible to get around tactically. I've conceded 6 freekick goals in my last 50 matches, simply because I experimented with instructions and tweak it as needed. If you can't be bothered trying to fix your tactical issues, why even bother complaining about the ME at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

I should not have to fiddle round w/ routines for seasons upon seasons to finally stumble upon something which nerfs the clear bugs in the ME/code.

Default set piece routines should indeed be better than they are (the lack of man at far post can cause issues), but you should still check personnel regardless. Surely you wouldn't expect your 5'3" winger to win defensive headers, because he may be tasked with going back in default routines? That's the sort of thing that can't be universal, because no club has players with same characteristics in all positions.

What I do agree with though, is that sorting out set pieces can be incredibly tedious. A single routine for corners, free-kicks and throw-ins would be just fine, there's no need to make people click through gazillion different sub sections each and every time. Or, at the very least, assistant should be capable of notifying us of any glaring issues such as players with poor Jumping Reach tasked with going back, or your 6'7" Target Man staying up. That's the sort of thing that's easy to forget about when making substitutions or squad changes and can be incredibly frustrating when it costs you goals. For all the useless advice your staff gives you, that's one thing that could actually be useful. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, XaW said:

What...? You shouldn't have to try new things to improve the defensive set pieces? How on earth do you then suggest you should improve them? Press the "Win now"-button?

Hyperbole. If the game is unplayable then why is one of the most played games on Steam currently (7th currently)?

The basic routines are perfectly usable, but if you want to get a bit more out of it, then micro management is needed, as in every other comparable game. The basic ones are usable, but you can do better if you bother to do it yourself.

If you enjoyed those games more, then play them instead. I loved the old CoD games, but despise the new ones, so I stick to playing the old ones and don't buy the new ones. It's as simple as that.

In all honesty, the FM20 have a couple of issues with the match engine, but for the most part, those are possible to get around tactically. I've conceded 6 freekick goals in my last 50 matches, simply because I experimented with instructions and tweak it as needed. If you can't be bothered trying to fix your tactical issues, why even bother complaining about the ME at all?

So you think conceding 1/2 set piece goals per game using the game's default set piece routines is fine / the ME working properly? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Zemahh said:

Default set piece routines should indeed be better than they are (the lack of man at far post can cause issues), but you should still check personnel regardless. Surely you wouldn't expect your 5'3" winger to win defensive headers, because he may be tasked with going back in default routines? That's the sort of thing that can't be universal, because no club has players with same characteristics in all positions.

What I do agree with though, is that sorting out set pieces can be incredibly tedious. A single routine for corners, free-kicks and throw-ins would be just fine, there's no need to make people click through gazillion different sub sections each and every time. Or, at the very least, assistant should be capable of notifying us of any glaring issues such as players with poor Jumping Reach tasked with going back, or your 6'7" Target Man staying up. That's the sort of thing that's easy to forget about when making substitutions or squad changes and can be incredibly frustrating when it costs you goals. For all the useless advice your staff gives you, that's one thing that could actually be useful. :D

Yes, I started w/ default & when that wasn't working properly did a deep dive through the routines. Over arching point is that the default routines (save for clear errors like a 5'3 winger marking their biggest threat) is still leading to way too many goals & its pretty much every single game . 

If you have to create super set piece routines to get to a point where the game is playable then something is wrong

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

So you think conceding 1/2 set piece goals per game using the game's default set piece routines is fine / the ME working properly? 

Could be, since you have stated no other facts, or indeed, shown that. Show your goal assists types for the last 50 matches and let us see 25 conceded freekicks, please.

oZII4ef.png

It's there, by the way. I conceded a freekick in my last match, so I'm up to 7 in the last 50 now.

Edited by XaW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also here is the statistics of conceded from set pieces from the 2019/20 (current) season of the Premier League

C8DVZMi.png

So Aston Villa have about every other game, while Everton and Arsenal are not far off the same. So that is plausible to concede a set piece goal every other game.

Source: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7811/Stages/17590/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

Now, I'm awaiting your screenshot of the conceded goals to see if that far beyond reasonable, in the light of the above example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Additionally, here is my current season, to increase the sample size.

pLBKmH4.png

So 15 games in, a couple of teams have conceded 4 goals from corners, so about every 3rd match, while I have 1 on 15 and even an AI team have 0 in 15.

Now, of course, there could be out layers and I could certainly be one of them, but so could you, if you are indeed getting 25 in 50.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Default set piece setups are certainly not perfect. I seem to remember someone from SI saying exactly that. If they were optimally set up from the start, what would be the point of even having a set piece creator or setting different routines? You can benefit from spending a little time, but it's hardly going to be hours of work or doing it every season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

If you have to create super set piece routines to get to a point where the game is playable then something is wrong

Well, I agree with you to a point, but should the game really feed us perfect routines from the get-go? Should we ask for the same when it comes to tactics and demand the game to give us a perfect starting point, which we can use to just coast through seasons without much effort?

XaW put it well, default routines should be half-decent as long as you have a few aerially strong players, but if you want to do better than that, you will have to do some micro-managing. If regularly conceding goals from set pieces isn't enough to sort them out, then I'm not sure what else the game can do for you.

https://youtu.be/H6XsNZ4pa28?t=16

Managers in real life go through set pieces before every game, perhaps we should stop being lazy and do the same. We're playing a simulation, after all. :D

No, but seriously, give us a less tedious way of sorting them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at these threads from bugs forum below. Happy I found these as they confirm exactly the issues I am having. The thing is bugged. This is not about me not doing enough on the routines...nor am I complaining about conceding from set peices...its the number of goals from corners & FKs that is the problem, in practically every match.

Guy from SI QA testing team, Jemal - "We are aware of the Overpowered set pieces" ... "We're currently working on better defending at back post areas from set pieces"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

Look at these threads from bugs forum below. Happy I found these as they confirm exactly the issues I am having. The thing is bugged. This is not about me not doing enough on the routines...nor am I complaining about conceding from set peices...its the number of goals from corners & FKs that is the problem, in practically every match.

Guy from SI QA testing team, Jemal - "We are aware of the Overpowered set pieces" ... "We're currently working on better defending at back post areas from set pieces"

Sure, and I said there are issues. I also said it very possible to work around them.

And I can't help but note that you haven't posted the image I asked for to prove the "every other match" claim. Is it coming any time soon? Or were the claim simply exaggeration? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Default set piece setups are certainly not perfect. I seem to remember someone from SI saying exactly that. If they were optimally set up from the start, what would be the point of even having a set piece creator or setting different routines? You can benefit from spending a little time, but it's hardly going to be hours of work or doing it every season.

tbf that would be optimising for the specific players in your regular side [which is still too tedious to bother with for rotated squads in regular matches].

They could stick someone on the far post by default. Whether you want men on the posts and how many men you want forward is a bit more subjective, and obviously having the near centre guarded by your giant forward is something you'd specifically choose to do only if you have a giant forward

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, XaW said:

 

Now, I'm awaiting your screenshot of the conceded goals to see if that far beyond reasonable, in the light of the above example.


I have the suspicious this is in parts something else. Namely, the guy doesn't concede all that many goals at all in the season despite the "OP set pieces". However, AI tactics.

Let's assume the guy is succesful. What he may face may be largely defensive AI tactics. FM arguably has far too many shots from set pieces vs. open play as is.

Now if the AI Plays defensive Football, that's all they mostly get. They couldn't produce much shots otherwise. Voila, all the goals he concedes in tendency will be from a set piece (or error, or long shot), as the AI just doesn't push enough men forward else.

Could be wrong, naturally. It likely is a combination of ME and AI tactics, either way.

 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

tbf that would be optimising for the specific players in your regular side [which is still too tedious to bother with for rotated squads in regular matches].

They could stick someone on the far post by default. Whether you want men on the posts and how many men you want forward is a bit more subjective, and obviously having the near centre guarded by your giant forward is something you'd specifically choose to do only if you have a giant forward

Good point and that reinforces the point that it's not all doom and gloom; that something can still be done, so it's worth looking into it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Svenc said:

I don't think this will come.

I have the suspicious this is in parts something else. Namely, the guy doesn't concede all that many goals at all despite the "OP set pieces". However, AI tactics.

Let's assume the guy is succesful. What he may face may be largely defensive AI tactics. FM arguably has far too many shots from set pieces vs. open play as is.

Now if the AI Plays defensive Football, that's all they mostly get. They couldn't produce much shots otherwise. Voila, all the goals he concedes in tendency will be from a set piece, as the AI just doesn't push enough men forward else.

Could be wrong, naturally.

Oh, I agree, I concede more from freekicks than I think I should, and SI have stated that they are looking at the set pieces, so there might clearly be something there.

My reactions went mostly on him calling the game "unplayable" and claiming that he concedes a goal from free kicks every other game. So I would simply ask him to prove his claim, because he could have a full set of tiny players with horrible marking and being a negative outlier on the scale. However, I didn't think it would be much use to look at that before he proved his claim in the first place. That's why I also give an example of a team who had pretty much the same statistic from Premier League this season to show it's not impossible to have it happen even if he could prove it.

Besides, his claim of not wanting to try to remedy the issue he had added to that and just seems dumb to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we have Loan Managers, we could have set-piece coaches too, doing that tedious work for us. :D @Seb Wassell

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest

Set Piece coaches must be thing in FM 21 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The amount of goals from set pieces is an issue even aknwoledged by the SI staff, as widely reported in the bugs forum.

Some routine isn't even executed correctly during the 3D match experience.

Some answers to the OP here let me sincerely speechless.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/05/2020 at 18:05, Grifty said:

If you want a pick up and play game, football manager is not the game for you I'm afraid. The fact that you decide that stumbling upon something with nerfs the bugs shows that you don't really know what you're talking about... I would watch at corners and set pieces to see where my team was conceding chances from, change who was stood where to counter this.

Take off get stuck in and you should concede less free kicks to concede from.

Just because you don't understand the tactics, it's not the games fault it's too advanced for you to adapt.

Luckily for you it seems the lockdown rules are being relaxed so you won't have to play it much longer.

The feedback thread on the latest update (below) is literally full of people complaining about too many goals from set pieces. Suggest you get off your high horse & don't reply to a post if you have nothing helpful to say. Your reply on the whole is pretty ignorant & rude

"If you want a pick up and play game"...."Just because you don't understand tactics" - LOL who tf do you think you are? I played 800hrs+ on each of FM07-12. I know what the game entails. Furthermore, I have been pretty successful on FM20. My win % is >60%. I just have 0 enjoyment waching the games because the number of set peice goals I am conceding is unrealistic.  

"Take off get stuck in" - didn't have it on in the first place. 

"Luckily for you it seems the lockdown rules are being relaxed so you won't have to play it much longer" - this is not a case of me just not playing the game. I spent £35 on it. It's on its 4th patch. I expect a game that doesn't have such glaring bugs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 30/05/2020 at 22:37, XaW said:

Oh, I agree, I concede more from freekicks than I think I should, and SI have stated that they are looking at the set pieces, so there might clearly be something there.

My was also a Response straight to the OP. At first he doesn't claim he concedes a set piece Goal every game likewise. At first he says this:

 

On 30/05/2020 at 17:12, Lvpool said:

What is up with set pieces on this game? Literally 90% of goals I concede are from set pieces, with the other 10% being random long shots.

If he's facing a lot of defensive AI tactics given his success, that's happened in the past already. They wouldn't work many shots from any play, as they don't push enough men Forward from play. If they ever score at all, it may be from a set piece in parts precisely because of that -- in parts. Ditto naturally long shots. If every Goal you indeed concede tends to be from a set piece, that influences one's perception.

In the past this was even perceived as "AI cheating", even though the AI didn'T win much. As in: "All the AI can do is winning by a set piece or fluke, never by "outplaying" me". 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 30/05/2020 at 21:37, XaW said:

Oh, I agree, I concede more from freekicks than I think I should, and SI have stated that they are looking at the set pieces, so there might clearly be something there.

My reactions went mostly on him calling the game "unplayable" and claiming that he concedes a goal from free kicks every other game. So I would simply ask him to prove his claim, because he could have a full set of tiny players with horrible marking and being a negative outlier on the scale. However, I didn't think it would be much use to look at that before he proved his claim in the first place. That's why I also give an example of a team who had pretty much the same statistic from Premier League this season to show it's not impossible to have it happen even if he could prove it.

Besides, his claim of not wanting to try to remedy the issue he had added to that and just seems dumb to me.

This is the thing, Si are looking at set pieces. It does not mean every set piece goal is a flaw, and you can definitely look to minimise conceding goals and/or maximising scoring them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
22 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This is the thing, Si are looking at set pieces. It does not mean every set piece goal is a flaw, and you can definitely look to minimise conceding goals and/or maximising scoring them

From the other hand, long throw ins seems exploit thing. I prefer more balanced approach. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Cadoni said:

From the other hand, long throw ins seems exploit thing. I prefer more balanced approach. 

Long throws, and actually throw-ins in general are a different story, and in my opinion need more work than set pieces

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 30/05/2020 at 18:34, XaW said:

Also here is the statistics of conceded from set pieces from the 2019/20 (current) season of the Premier League

C8DVZMi.png

So Aston Villa have about every other game, while Everton and Arsenal are not far off the same. So that is plausible to concede a set piece goal every other game.

Source: https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/7811/Stages/17590/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2019-2020

Now, I'm awaiting your screenshot of the conceded goals to see if that far beyond reasonable, in the light of the above example.

Aston Villa are not about every other game...they have conceded 56 goals of which 14 are from set peices = 25%. Utd & Arsenal look to be the worst offenders at about 1/3 of goals from set peices. PL average based on that table is much less than 1/3 (in fact looks to be about 20%, which is 1 in 5). Those %'s are FAR FAR from the proportions me & many others are seeing.

If 1 in 5 of my goals conceded were set peices, I wouldn't be posting here (don't think I've ever even posted in these forums before despite playing the game since fm07). Right now its about 4 in every 5.

SI need to sort it out

Edited by Lvpool
Added extra info

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

Aston Villa are not about every other game...they have conceded 56 goals of which 14 are from set peices = 25%. Utd & Arsenal look to be the worst offenders at about 1/3 of goals from set peices. PL average based on that table is much less than 1/3 (in fact looks to be about 20%, which is 1 in 5). Those %'s are FAR FAR from the proportions me & many others are seeing.

If 1 in 5 of my goals conceded were set peices, I wouldn't be posting here (don't think I've ever even posted in these forums before despite playing the game since fm07). Right now its about 4 in every 5.

SI need to sort it out

How many goals conceded total?

As argued, if you'd be managing a big successful team on Prior releases, the AI tactics themselves would Play this defensive football, they rarely pushed enough men forward to score from anything else but a set piece / long shot / error. It was perfectly logical to see mostly set piece goals -- if so the AI scored at all. This may need some further AI tactics tweaking itself atop of the ME stuff.

tldr; If the AI on average doesn't play tactics aggressive enough (in particular against big and/or successful teams), it would be logical to concede mostly from the set piece / long shot.

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Lvpool said:

Aston Villa are not about every other game...they have conceded 56 goals of which 14 are from set peices = 25%. Utd & Arsenal look to be the worst offenders at about 1/3 of goals from set peices. PL average based on that table is much less than 1/3 (in fact looks to be about 20%, which is 1 in 5). Those %'s are FAR FAR from the proportions me & many others are seeing.

If 1 in 5 of my goals conceded were set peices, I wouldn't be posting here (don't think I've ever even posted in these forums before despite playing the game since fm07). Right now its about 4 in every 5.

SI need to sort it out

Deflection, nice tactic. You said yourself, you concede a set piece every other game:

On 30/05/2020 at 19:21, Lvpool said:

So you think conceding 1/2 set piece goals per game using the game's default set piece routines is fine / the ME working properly? 

I never said 50 of Aston Villa's goals, but that they concede a set piece goal every other game. The same as you said. 1/2 equals half a goal per game, so 1 conceded every 2 games. Aston Villa? 14 goals conceded in 29 games, is pretty close to that.

That said, you STILL haven't posted a shred of evidence that you actually concede as much. You thought you'd found a single point you could challenge me on, and simply avoided all else.

So, please post the image proving your stats, unless you are lying that is? I don't know, but it very suspicious that you try to deflect like this and avoid proving anything. I've shown evidence and provided links. I challenge you to do the same, unless you want to embarrass yourself even further?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, XaW said:

Deflection, nice tactic. You said yourself, you concede a set piece every other game:

I never said 50 of Aston Villa's goals, but that they concede a set piece goal every other game. The same as you said. 1/2 equals half a goal per game, so 1 conceded every 2 games. Aston Villa? 14 goals conceded in 29 games, is pretty close to that.

That said, you STILL haven't posted a shred of evidence that you actually concede as much. You thought you'd found a single point you could challenge me on, and simply avoided all else.

So, please post the image proving your stats, unless you are lying that is? I don't know, but it very suspicious that you try to deflect like this and avoid proving anything. I've shown evidence and provided links. I challenge you to do the same, unless you want to embarrass yourself even further?

Ok sure the number works out to 1 in every 2 games but the more relevant stat to look at is as a % of total goals conceded.

Say Villa lose 4-0 to City & then 2-0 to Norwich (incl. from a set peice) then the 25% of goals conceded from set peices is more informative than the 1 in every 2 games imo. 

I gave you the stats from what I was seeing in my OP, 90% at the time of posting which I am tracking in an excel (incl. goals where the ball bobbles around in the box after a FK or corner)....v. far removed from the 1 in 5 it looks like for the PL overall. & if you don't believe me without a screenshot then I don't really care, I'm not going to dig that out just for you because doing that is not going to help me in any way. What's going to help me is SI fixing an issue that is well documented by many & v. fustrating.

The fact that there are numerous other users complaining about the same issues confirms I'm not just talking out my ass. I have posted links to various other topics where users are complaining about this (incl. screenshots if you are so desperate for them). Its the law of large numbers, can't be this many users complaining & nothing wrong. If I had seen those posts first, I wouldn't have made this thread - no need, as its bugged

Edited by Lvpool

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

Ok sure the number works out to 1 in every 2 games but the more relevant stat to look at is as a % of total goals conceded.

Say Villa lose 4-0 to City & then 2-0 to Norwich (incl. from a set peice) then the 25% of goals conceded from set peices is more informative than the 1 in every 2 games imo. 

I gave you the stats from what I was seeing in my OP, 90% at the time of posting which I am tracking in an excel (incl. goals where the ball bobbles around in the box after a FK or corner)....v. far removed from the 1 in 5 it looks like for the PL overall. & if you don't believe me without a screenshot then I don't really care, I'm not going to dig that out just for you because doing that is not going to help me in any way. What's going to help me is SI fixing an issue that is well documented by many & v. fustrating.

The fact that there are numerous other users complaining about the same issues confirms I'm not just talking about my ass. I have posted links to various other topics where users are complaining about this (incl. screenshots if you are so desperate for them). Its the law of large numbers, can't be this many users complaining & nothing wrong. If I had seen those posts first, I wouldn't have made this thread.

Sure, but that's not what you said initially. A screenshot a screenshot from the game would validate your claim. You coming on here and claiming this and that without any evidence is NOT going to help SI fix anything. Uploading your game with examples of what you thing are wrong and exemplifying it with the aforementioned screenshot WOULD help.

And both others and I have clearly written here that there are issues with set pieces, HOWEVER it's possible to negate it somewhat by changing them yourself. But with claims like:

On 30/05/2020 at 18:46, Lvpool said:

I should not have to fiddle round w/ routines

is simply making looking yourself look foolish. Of course, fiddling with tactical tweaks should happen if you are getting exploited somehow. It's what the game is all about.

I did fiddle around with it, for several seasons in fact, and this season I conceded 1 (ONE!) goal from a corner. And only 3 from free kicks. In 33 games.

4a67CJV.png

So, looking at that, I could make a claim that set pieces are too poor and I should concede more. And I've provided more evidence than you regarding it. However, I won't since I had an issue with conceding a lot, but then I

On 30/05/2020 at 18:46, Lvpool said:

fiddle round w/ routines for seasons upon seasons

and in the end I found something that works. Almost like.... a manager would?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Lvpool said:

Ok sure the number works out to 1 in every 2 games but the more relevant stat to look at is as a % of total goals conceded.

Say Villa lose 4-0 to City & then 2-0 to Norwich (incl. from a set peice) then the 25% of goals conceded from set peices is more informative than the 1 in every 2 games imo. 

I gave you the stats from what I was seeing in my OP, 90% at the time of posting which I am tracking in an excel (incl. goals where the ball bobbles around in the box after a FK or corner)....v. far removed from the 1 in 5 it looks like for the PL overall. & if you don't believe me without a screenshot then I don't really care, I'm not going to dig that out just for you because doing that is not going to help me in any way. What's going to help me is SI fixing an issue that is well documented by many & v. fustrating.

The fact that there are numerous other users complaining about the same issues confirms I'm not just talking out my ass. I have posted links to various other topics where users are complaining about this (incl. screenshots if you are so desperate for them). Its the law of large numbers, can't be this many users complaining & nothing wrong. If I had seen those posts first, I wouldn't have made this thread - no need, as its bugged

The info for set pieces are readily available in game getting a screenshot of it won't take you much time for sure. And if you don't know where to find it then I will have to put a doubt on what you say here naturally. Just because someone complained about something doesn't mean that it is an issue that affects everyone. No one goes to forums giving praises to SI when their set pieces are working.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've lost count of how many games I have lost due to a 80-90:th minute set piece from the other team. They are now on my ever growing "okay to replay game"-list (aka "cheating").

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, XaW said:

 

So, looking at that, I could make a claim that set pieces are too poor and I should concede more. 

I would still love him to provide some of those stats. Aside of the ME issues, I'll try to word my suspicious a Little differently:


- Being successful, he doesn't actually concede that many goals total
- However, equally being successful, he faces a lot of defensive AI manager tactics (they figure he's the match favorite, and set up to shut up shop)
- Some of those may be this defensive that most of the shots he at all faces all throughout the season are all set pieces and Long shots (and Little else)
- Given that it's shots eventually leading to goals: Where would one expect the Goals to come from then?

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 30/05/2020 at 12:46, Lvpool said:

Add on top of this the fact that creating routines is wayyy to time consuming / complex (for me at least)...look at the no. of permutations you have to set up to just for free kicks, its just silly...& even when you do, the AI still score

I'm not a big fan of the micromanaging involved in set piece tactics, but the following helps minimize some of the pain. Set it once and then create all tactics from that starting template (very few adjustments are required if you keep most positions similar):

  1. Defend - Free Kicks Indirect (Wide)
    • Assign one CD to zonally mark six yard box far post
    • Assign one CD to man mark a tall player
    • Assign four midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the other spots in the six yard box
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Put a couple players in the wall
    • Put one fast player forward for counters
  2. Defend - Free Kicks (Deep)
    • Assign one CD to zonally mark six yard box far post
    • Assign one CD to man mark a tall player
    • Assign four midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the other spots in the six yard box
    • Assign one player to man mark
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Keep two fast players forward for counters
  3. Defend - Corners
    • Assign two CD to man mark tall players
    • Assign five midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the six yard box
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Keep two fast players forward for counters
  4. Attack - Corners
    • Assign one CD to attack far post
    • Assign one CD to attack near post
    • Assign two attacking-minded players to lurk near the far and near posts
    • Put one midfielder to lurk outside the area (preferably with good longshots and passing/vision)
    • Assign one player to come short (preferably with good crossing)
    • Keep both fullbacks back
    • Create three routines with the same positioning but aim the delivery to near post, six yard box, and short as your three options so you have a nice variety of corners to watch in match (they can all work)
  5. Attack - Free Kicks Indirect (Wide and Deep)
    • Tell your taker to aim at the far post
    • Assign one CD to attack far post
    • Assign three attacking-minded players to go forward
    • Assign one CD to attack near post
    • Keep three men back
    • Assign one player to lurk outside area
    • Use a left-footed taker on the right side and right-footed on the left so they are in-swinging crosses
Edited by Overmars

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Svenc said:

I would still love him to provide some of those stats. Aside of the ME issues, I'll try to word my suspicious a Little differently:


- Being successful, he doesn't actually concede that many goals total
- However, equally being successful, he faces a lot of defensive AI manager tactics (they figure he's the match favorite, and set up to shut up shop)
- Some of those may be this defensive that most of the shots he at all faces all throughout the season are all set pieces and Long shots (and Little else)
- Given that it's shots eventually leading to goals: Where would one expect the Goals to come from then?

Of course, that's why I'm generalising here. In my game I'm also the dominant team domestically, so I should perhaps concede more than I do. I simply think that the issues are quite possible to mend tactically, and when he flat our refuses to either show evidence of his claims or indeed want to do something tactically, then I don't think his claims have any validity at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, XaW said:

Of course, that's why I'm generalising here. In my game I'm also the dominant team domestically, so I should perhaps concede more than I do. I simply think that the issues are quite possible to mend tactically, and when he flat our refuses to either show evidence of his claims or indeed want to do something tactically, then I don't think his claims have any validity at all.

Agree, but hopefully when tracking he may understand this, seeing as he quotes percentages:

16 hours ago, Lvpool said:

Ok sure the number works out to 1 in every 2 games but the more relevant stat to look at is as a % of total goals conceded.


Let's assume -- for the sake of the argument -- 100% of the shots he faces throughout the Season are ALL from a set piece or long shot. Then it follows that ALL goals he concedes would be from a set piece or long shot. That would be exactly what was supposed to be happening. Unless you concede zero shots throughout the season, you will concede goals at various points. Sometimes those goals don't matter, sometimes they do.
 

So, whether things are realistic or aren't would also depend a lot on the shots one faces. On some prior releases AI used to be this defensive against the top teams, they barely created anything from open play. The only times they pushed men forward was from the set piece. This was reworked some, but upon closer Investigation may also need some further tuning -- even Liverpool, Bayern, Barcelona et all, certainly don't face teams this defensive that they would only face opposition shots from the set piece. If they would do, even 100% of however few goals conceded from the set piece would be perfectly realistic.

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
9 hours ago, Svenc said:

I would still love him to provide some of those stats. Aside of the ME issues, I'll try to word my suspicious a Little differently:


- Being successful, he doesn't actually concede that many goals total
- However, equally being successful, he faces a lot of defensive AI manager tactics (they figure he's the match favorite, and set up to shut up shop)
- Some of those may be this defensive that most of the shots he at all faces all throughout the season are all set pieces and Long shots (and Little else)
- Given that it's shots eventually leading to goals: Where would one expect the Goals to come from then?

Can you post your SP routines? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I finished the season last night and checked statistics. I was pleased with the defending corners conceded but the goals conceded from indirect free kicks were too high. It was 8 or 9 and I was secend from the bottom in the league in that stat. I didin't however tinker with those routines and have been playing it with defaults so there is probably room for improvement. I just ignore it sometimes because when I play journeyman save it just gets boring to set it up everytime you change clubs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Svenc said:

Agree, but hopefully when tracking he may understand this, seeing as he quotes percentages:


Let's assume -- for the sake of the argument -- 100% of the shots he faces throughout the Season are ALL from a set piece or long shot. Then it follows that ALL goals he concedes would be from a set piece or long shot. That would be exactly what was supposed to be happening. Unless you concede zero shots throughout the season, you will concede goals at various points. Sometimes those goals don't matter, sometimes they do.
 

So, whether things are realistic or aren't would also depend a lot on the shots one faces. On some prior releases AI used to be this defensive against the top teams, they barely created anything from open play. The only times they pushed men forward was from the set piece. This was reworked some, but upon closer Investigation may also need some further tuning -- even Liverpool, Bayern, Barcelona et all, certainly don't face teams this defensive that they would only face opposition shots from the set piece. If they would do, even 100% of however few goals conceded from the set piece would be perfectly realistic.

I agree with this theory. Also, since most FM players use aggressive tactics, with urgent pressing and hard tackling, one would expect to concede a lot of fouls. This is especially true if someone is using attacking wingbacks prone to being out of position defensively or playing without any cover from teammates. Those fouls along the edges of the pitch are no accident and can lead to a lot of indirect free kick opportunities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The default set piece routines are awful and will result in lots more conceded than scored goals. Thankfully this is easy to fix and once you put in a decent routine you'll score more than concede. 

I think there's too many set piece goals in the game though. And I'm not a huge fan of this part of the game, the set piece creator is boring and repetitive (how many different situations do you now need to set up individually?!) and there's the odd annoying bug, and for all the options it is actually pretty limited, there's not that many different possible combinations to set up a corner. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't touch any setpiece routine in corner and wide setpieces.

If I touch it would be cheating against AI.  Indirect setpiece goals already too much in default settings. 

 

AW3dmW.jpg

 

vic1rH.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
Posted (edited)
On 02/06/2020 at 03:20, Overmars said:

I'm not a big fan of the micromanaging involved in set piece tactics, but the following helps minimize some of the pain. Set it once and then create all tactics from that starting template (very few adjustments are required if you keep most positions similar):

  1. Defend - Free Kicks Indirect (Wide)
    • Assign one CD to zonally mark six yard box far post
    • Assign one CD to man mark a tall player
    • Assign four midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the other spots in the six yard box
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Put a couple players in the wall
    • Put one fast player forward for counters
  2. Defend - Free Kicks (Deep)
    • Assign one CD to zonally mark six yard box far post
    • Assign one CD to man mark a tall player
    • Assign four midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the other spots in the six yard box
    • Assign one player to man mark
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Keep two fast players forward for counters
  3. Defend - Corners
    • Assign two CD to man mark tall players
    • Assign five midfielders or fullbacks to zonally mark the six yard box
    • Put one decent playmaker on the edge of the area to try to start counters
    • Keep two fast players forward for counters
  4. Attack - Corners
    • Assign one CD to attack far post
    • Assign one CD to attack near post
    • Assign two attacking-minded players to lurk near the far and near posts
    • Put one midfielder to lurk outside the area (preferably with good longshots and passing/vision)
    • Assign one player to come short (preferably with good crossing)
    • Keep both fullbacks back
    • Create three routines with the same positioning but aim the delivery to near post, six yard box, and short as your three options so you have a nice variety of corners to watch in match (they can all work)
  5. Attack - Free Kicks Indirect (Wide and Deep)
    • Tell your taker to aim at the far post
    • Assign one CD to attack far post
    • Assign three attacking-minded players to go forward
    • Assign one CD to attack near post
    • Keep three men back
    • Assign one player to lurk outside area
    • Use a left-footed taker on the right side and right-footed on the left so they are in-swinging crosses

Following above:

Goals from Corners

goal_corners.thumb.png.9359d817c0c75b592fe39c931696e873.png

Goals from Indirect Free Kicks

goal_idfk.thumb.png.c769f1762d343f76ca29370f15d11f3f.png

Defending Corners

con_corners.thumb.png.9d9dbfe67ca15cabc039f72b547cfc16.png

Defending DFK

con_dfk.thumb.png.d104b7f8206518438e51f2914f83db29.png

Defending IDFK

con_idfk.thumb.png.6b1cef4acd16266b83a33485f5616b0b.png

 

Main Stage

Screenshot_1.thumb.png.5a7e4c735387938b7d7e4f2dd19e2dea.png

Concede 44 goals

17 goals against from Set Piece, most notable Indirect Free Kicks

Edited by Guest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general I can accept that conceding from IFKs or corners is down to my players but what really annoys me is that despite playing at level 10 in England the opposition always seems to have a player who can hit a direct freekick from the edge of the box into the top corner like they're Juninho Pernambucano. I don't know how many of you have ever watched a real life game at that level but it just doesn't happen. Its one thing a naff FK sneaking in because of dreadful keeping but when my keeper reacts early and is at full stretch and he still can't get to it because its been popped into a postage stamp sized gap in the top corner I just shake my head. If SI can sort out long shots and direct free kicks then I'll be a lot happier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While i agree there are some issues, as XaW states they can be sufficiently overcome without too much time consumption and frustration.

Aside from DFKs, which there isnt much you can do about those flying in the top corner (other than trying not to concede FKs in the first place). Since making a set of defensive set piece tactics for corners and IFKs, i've noticed a drop in the goals conceded a decent amount.

But, that is only part of the picture, conceding the goals is one thing, what i found across a few saves was the amount of set piece match highlights being shown were considerably less. Which makes it even more worth while doing as to me, it means we're dealing with them well and it doesn't warrant a highlight.

EG. from my last match, the opponent had 9 corners. Only 1 of those was a 'completed cross' but it did not turn into any form of registered shot. 

I'm playing as Belper and the quality of player is as you would expect, below average. But even the smallest amount of focus on a few areas will make a difference.

In my last 50 league matches, i've conceded 4 corners and 5 free kicks (DFK/IFK)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Set piece for them near my goal = scoring chance for them

Set piece for me near their goal = scoring chance for them

And how come I cant let my assistant manager take care of set piece instructions? I know they never did any set pieces training in previous versions of FM, can't remember I have seen them do it in FM20 either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Viking said:

And how come I cant let my assistant manager take care of set piece instructions?

In essence that is what you are doing by using the default ones. But I agree, the assistant should be able to use for that, but as before, everything that you set the assistant to do will be just a bit less good than if you do it yourself. If the assistant can do it perfectly, then why have the user be able to do it at all?

This could be one for the suggestions subforum though, if you want it implemented in the future, I mean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I want to point out, despite not changing much my set pieces tactics, the results highly varied one season to an other. Sometimes i have conceded a high amount of IDFK, then the next season a low amount, despite having the same squad and the same freekicks patterns. This makes it hard to know if the changes you did on set pieces are positive or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Atarin said:

In general I can accept that conceding from IFKs or corners is down to my players but what really annoys me is that despite playing at level 10 in England the opposition always seems to have a player who can hit a direct freekick from the edge of the box into the top corner like they're Juninho Pernambucano. I don't know how many of you have ever watched a real life game at that level but it just doesn't happen. Its one thing a naff FK sneaking in because of dreadful keeping but when my keeper reacts early and is at full stretch and he still can't get to it because its been popped into a postage stamp sized gap in the top corner I just shake my head. If SI can sort out long shots and direct free kicks then I'll be a lot happier.

I mean, I have played football at an amateur level most of my life and you see free kicks scored at every level. Scoring a free kick itself is not unrealistic, if it happens on a too frequent occasion is when there may be signs of a problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...