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Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

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Thought I'd fire up the game and give it another go, wish I hadn't. With no game saved I started a new career and arranged some pre season games starting off against lower league teams then building up to higher standard as you get near competitive games. 1st game I win 7-0 against Spartans, as expected I had loads of shots and huge possession, it's what I'm looking for to get my players used to the tactic. 2nd game against Drogheda and win 6-1, 2/3rds of the team play well others are average, 34 shots at goal with 19 on target, around 50% is not too bad. But I also had 4 headers hitting the crossbar, 2 shots hitting the post and a keeper from lower league Ireland playing like Alisson. Most goals come from inside forwards and attacking midfielders, plus a few from CH's via corners and free kicks, both central strikers are average ratings and zero goals. The Drogheda goal and their only shot on target was a header from my CH going to no one in midfield even when there was zero pressure on him and the Drogheda player scored from around 25yds?

No matter what system I play this is always the case, I can create my own tactic or down load one from Knapp, the results  and game play in the ME are the same, loads of possession and shots, 1 decent goal via a defence splitting pass, the rest either headers or shots from the edge of the box.

 

Yes winning is not a problem, enjoying watching the ME is a problem, it has too many large flaws for it to be a pleasure playing and these are only a few of the errors in this ME, I could mention another dozen or so ME problems but they're already well known on here.

Rant over.

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15 hours ago, jc1 said:

Thought I'd fire up the game and give it another go, wish I hadn't. With no game saved I started a new career and arranged some pre season games starting off against lower league teams then building up to higher standard as you get near competitive games. 1st game I win 7-0 against Spartans, as expected I had loads of shots and huge possession, it's what I'm looking for to get my players used to the tactic. 2nd game against Drogheda and win 6-1, 2/3rds of the team play well others are average, 34 shots at goal with 19 on target, around 50% is not too bad. But I also had 4 headers hitting the crossbar, 2 shots hitting the post and a keeper from lower league Ireland playing like Alisson. Most goals come from inside forwards and attacking midfielders, plus a few from CH's via corners and free kicks, both central strikers are average ratings and zero goals. The Drogheda goal and their only shot on target was a header from my CH going to no one in midfield even when there was zero pressure on him and the Drogheda player scored from around 25yds?

No matter what system I play this is always the case, I can create my own tactic or down load one from Knapp, the results  and game play in the ME are the same, loads of possession and shots, 1 decent goal via a defence splitting pass, the rest either headers or shots from the edge of the box.

 

Yes winning is not a problem, enjoying watching the ME is a problem, it has too many large flaws for it to be a pleasure playing and these are only a few of the errors in this ME, I could mention another dozen or so ME problems but they're already well known on here.

Rant over.

I was considering playing one last save before FM21 comes out but i may just hold off. 

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Don't know where to post this but, I feel kind of aggrieved I partly missed out on a playoff spot because Juventus U23 had Douglas Costa, Sami Khedira and Gianluigi Buffon playing. It feels quite unfair and iirc in real life they haven't sent any of their stars to play in Serie C/A. 

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image.thumb.png.e6c0a321ee229ffa418c4578dbaa3370.png

 

Even EL Clasico is a borefest. Real Madrid playing a defensive 4-1-4-1. 

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This goal was disallowed by offside.

I think the worst aspect of the buggy FM20' ME is the offsides. I have one goal disallowed per match. Unplayable!!

Offside.png

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I started a new Career in the lowest german league avaiable (Tier 6) with the league mod and had such a perfect defense the ccc conversion rate of my opponents was negative. :D

PS: A the end of the season they had managed to get +1 eventually...

wunderabwehr.png

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Posted (edited)

Generally i have had a longer break form FM20 and starting the new career in the lower league (what my usual playmode is to build a team up from the lowest league possible) it felt as if there was a sneak update or something bcs i was completely missing some of the wird things like conceding freak goals etc.

The attacking play was a charm with a variety of goals (with a weight into crossing assists bcs that is how i play) and the defense play almost flawless...ofc my team was better than any other team in that league but that usually did not prevent freak situations from happen.

The worst i can say is that in a few games my team was unable to score even from the very best chances but did at least not concede a goal so it was not a complete loss but only a draw which in the end may or may not help.

Edited by Etebaer

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3 hours ago, Etebaer said:

I started a new Career in the lowest german league avaiable (Tier 6) with the league mod and had such a perfect defense the ccc conversion rate of my opponents was negative. :D

PS: A the end of the season they had managed to get +1 eventually...

wunderabwehr.png

Bruh that skin lit up my whole room :D

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770533377_nocounter.gif.b48e64683282e762ea49efd2f839ab14.gif

Here is one example of how bad AI can really hurt how FM looks. Look at behaviour of my AF during this counter. I think it was Greenwood. All my players were about 75% condition at this point of the match so he wasn't exhausted. He wasn't injured, I checked his morale, he was fine, he just didn't register it was a counter or something. I imagine he was singing "Sunshine Reggae" during this play.

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Posted (edited)

If u wanna have some fm fun and if u respect your mental health just start an FM17 save. That ME is gold compared to this year's; truly enjoyable stuff. Said the same thing months ago about FM18 but tbh FM17 is even better than 18. prolly the best FM ME so far.

Edited by Mikema26

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vor 44 Minuten schrieb yolixeya:

770533377_nocounter.gif.b48e64683282e762ea49efd2f839ab14.gif

Here is one example of how bad AI can really hurt how FM looks. Look at behaviour of my AF during this counter. I think it was Greenwood. All my players were about 75% condition at this point of the match so he wasn't exhausted. He wasn't injured, I checked his morale, he was fine, he just didn't register it was a counter or something. I imagine he was singing "Sunshine Reggae" during this play.

What exactly is the problem - the one that does not move is obviously hindered by the defender and the ball gets cleared outside in a way that displays the inaccuracy of the 3D Engine.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, yolixeya said:

770533377_nocounter.gif.b48e64683282e762ea49efd2f839ab14.gif

Here is one example of how bad AI can really hurt how FM looks. Look at behaviour of my AF during this counter. I think it was Greenwood. All my players were about 75% condition at this point of the match so he wasn't exhausted. He wasn't injured, I checked his morale, he was fine, he just didn't register it was a counter or something. I imagine he was singing "Sunshine Reggae" during this play.

Only real problem I see on this is that ball carrier out runs all players including his own team players. This causes unbalance in integrity of attacking team formation and proper pass plays just dont happen. Of course ball carrier runs too much with out stopping and he is allowed to run too much in first place. Have to hope it will get better in next fm.

Edited by Pasonen

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31 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

What exactly is the problem - the one that does not move is obviously hindered by the defender and the ball gets cleared outside in a way that displays the inaccuracy of the 3D Engine.

Have you ever seen player hindered in real life in such a way? He can run around him ant try to look for a space and let the defender chase him but he is basically not running.

4 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

Only real problem I see on this is ball carrier out runs all players including his own team players. This causes unbalance in integrity of attacking team formation and proper pass plays just dont happen. Of course ball carrier runs too much with out stopping and he is allowed to run too much in first place. Have to hope it will get better in next fm.

The only players he outruns is my AF because he is taking the time to smell the flowers, and the player guarding him. The other players run at approximately same speed as the ball carrier. That is how I see it.

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9 hours ago, yolixeya said:

Have you ever seen player hindered in real life in such a way? He can run around him ant try to look for a space and let the defender chase him but he is basically not running.

The only players he outruns is my AF because he is taking the time to smell the flowers, and the player guarding him. The other players run at approximately same speed as the ball carrier. That is how I see it.

I have to add to this because I feel I partly said earlier wrong. True some of the players match ball carrier in speed. Problem is if only target men and playmakers are allowed to holdup ball or roles that just dribble less meaning they are the ones who can stop running and pass. I understand this is simulation game where you can make changes to make game work differently like dribble less. But some things need to come from general decision making or it will start to hurt presentation of football. All players need to have chance to make decision to stop dribbling and pass the ball or hold up ball.

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I've never had any real issues with the game this year, the match engine has been solid enough (not perfect of course), and the general coding of the game has been sound for the most part other than a few annoying competition and interaction bugs. 

Biggest issue for me is being able to watch the matches without it being laggy as hell. FM19 shows my 3D capability of my computer as 5*, FM20 shows it a 1*, for a game that hasn't changed drastically in the graphics department since the last one. Tried all sorts of settings, and I've come to the conclusion that for whatever reason, this years game and certain NVIDIA cards are simply not compatible. 

 

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15 hours ago, Pasonen said:

Only real problem I see on this is that ball carrier out runs all players including his own team players. This causes unbalance in integrity of attacking team formation and proper pass plays just dont happen. Of course ball carrier runs too much with out stopping and he is allowed to run too much in first place. Have to hope it will get better in next fm.

 

17 hours ago, yolixeya said:

770533377_nocounter.gif.b48e64683282e762ea49efd2f839ab14.gif

Here is one example of how bad AI can really hurt how FM looks. Look at behaviour of my AF during this counter. I think it was Greenwood. All my players were about 75% condition at this point of the match so he wasn't exhausted. He wasn't injured, I checked his morale, he was fine, he just didn't register it was a counter or something. I imagine he was singing "Sunshine Reggae" during this play.

You're both looking at the same issue from different angles, in that there's often no wider appreciation of where anyone else is in counter attacks. Obviously this should be scaled with the relevant attributes. But there's often way too much running and tunnel vision. But I think there's too much running in FM20 as a general rule

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It could be that there is too much running in FM20, that is something I didn't pay much attention to but I don't mind ball carrier running in this situation. It was a throw in for opponents and then after they crossed the ball, one of my players headed the ball away to Stacey and that is where the GIF starts. Look at all that space in front of him. Why shouldn't he run? I play him as a DLP but he has a trait "runs with the ball often". He also has a trait "looking for the pass rather than attempting to score" but how is he going to pass when AF who should be the most attacking player on the field isn't making the run?

I agree that in general players need to make better decisions regardless of they roles and instructions, but also assume that is very difficult to achieve. I am not claiming that the game is broken because of this. AI is what it is.

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Posted (edited)
3 ore fa, themadsheep2001 ha scritto:

 

You're both looking at the same issue from different angles, in that there's often no wider appreciation of where anyone else is in counter attacks. Obviously this should be scaled with the relevant attributes. But there's often way too much running and tunnel vision. But I think there's too much running in FM20 as a general rule

too much running with the ball and too little without. Counter-attacks are particularly interesting in this regard and they show how much room there is for ME to be even better.

While in real, counter attacks are as structured and prepared as positional attacks, in FM there is very little control on how they develop.

targetman.png.0db1e551eadeef29897bb3da2327d68f.png

1) i.e. this is a prepared counter-attack in real where the coach uses #9 as a targetman for high balls. He is supported by two press resistant players that are able to keep control under pressure (yellow rectangle) and two wingers that make direct passing options behind the back line.

 

shift.thumb.png.4546e4c6d1fac931bda9039a5341455b.png

2) this is different team but again, a prepared counter attack where the team shifts the ball from the strong side (i.e. after a throw in) towards the weak side (green circle) where the player on the ball is supported by an a diagonal run from center (#10). This stretches the backline creatign corridors for vertical runners from deep (red circle). An additional player attacks the edge of the box for a square pass (blue circle).

 

4.png.0b32fc4f85d6ea58aadc0ef08f9c4bdb.png

3) This is a prepared counter attack using quick player good in 1v1 #7 who goes individually down the flank supported by an overlapping full back (green circle)


3.png.423dc9666c7dd5befd913e9baeace202.png

4) This is an example that is most similar to what mostly happens in FM (well except direct runs over the length of the pitch) where the team plays immediate direct ball behind the backline for a striker. Interestingly enough, this example is from a team that avoids counter-attacks and uses them only when there is an obvious immediate pass to attack the goal. otherwise, they tend to reorganize.

 

These examples show that after regaining possession:

I) you need a designated 1st/2nd/3d choice targetman for the first pass.
   a) Either for a long ball to feet/head (example 1), 

  b) a quick player in space (example 3)

 

II) you need to prepare support for the player 

 a) overlapping (example 3) 

 b) underlapping (ex 2)

 c) press resistant to retain possession (example 1)

 

III) you need to know what happens when you arrive into attacking third

 a) primary targets for cross (example 1)

 b) secondary target on the edge of the box (example 1, blue circle)

 c) players attacking the depth (example 1 and 4 red circles)

 

These are only random examples without touching counter attacks from medium/high block but I believe they illustrate how much more complex they are than what one sees in the FM. Two points to consider:

1) counter attacks are among the easiest chances in football as attacking team faces disorganized defence. Yet, it still needs a lot of different movement and approaches

2) the most common counter attack in FM is actually the least common (successful) in real. 

 

 

 

Edited by MBarbaric

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

too much running with the ball and too little without. Counter-attacks are particularly interesting in this regard and they show how much room there is for ME to be even better.

One of the "biggest" problems in ME compared to real football is that players dont seem to know where the ball is when it is being passed. Players dont see ball flying and anticipate accordingly. After player gets ball they know again where to move. This affects both attack and defence but it affects more to defending especially when every channel is occupied by opposition att role player. Thats one reason I think why counters posted dont happen. Another one is passes into space and runs to that empty space are quite limited. Theres very little medium lenght passes into space. Of course this is limited because of the earlier lacking player understanding where ball is. This gives static formations some kind of hope to defend attacks. In my opinion..

Edited by Pasonen

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57 minutes ago, Pasonen said:

One of the "biggest" problems in ME compared to real football is that players dont seem to know where the ball is when it is being passed. Players dont see ball flying and anticipate accordingly. After player gets ball they know again where to move.

Maybe not exactly because sometimes they will react to the ball flying but close enough. In short, what we call AI in gaming isn't really AI, and players we see running on the pitch are not conscious entities. And that is not going to change soon. But I think SI can create better patterns when counter attacking, better patterns during set pieces etc. That is something they can work on regardless of AI.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, yolixeya said:

Maybe not exactly because sometimes they will react to the ball flying but close enough. In short, what we call AI in gaming isn't really AI, and players we see running on the pitch are not conscious entities. And that is not going to change soon. But I think SI can create better patterns when counter attacking, better patterns during set pieces etc. That is something they can work on regardless of AI.

One most disturbing thing is when long quick pass is made to flank and after that first static defline 4-5 defenders set their height as a unit and after that fb close down opposition in flank. This gives time advantage for attacking team. Another thing is how easily whole defline drops deeper. One run to usually flank and whole defline drops and gives space for attacking team. After this defline units sit deep narrow and cm/wide cm's do all the defending. 

Edited by Pasonen

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Posted (edited)
Am 8.8.2020 um 21:26 schrieb yolixeya:

Have you ever seen player hindered in real life in such a way? He can run around him ant try to look for a space and let the defender chase him but he is basically not running.

The only players he outruns is my AF because he is taking the time to smell the flowers, and the player guarding him. The other players run at approximately same speed as the ball carrier. That is how I see it.

Well, i guess it could be seen as "blocking" by the defender and it is up to the referee if this is a foul but then the saying goes: Foul is when the whistle (from the ref) sounds!

Edited by Etebaer

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There is definitively to much running which is why i used "dribble less" and switched off "work ball into box" until the latest update where it hurts more than it helps and switched back to "work ball into box" and disabled "dribble less" and now it is better but there is no solution to gradually change the amount of passing game vs running game as it is a bit on/off.

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2 hours ago, Pasonen said:

One most disturbing thing is when long quick pass is made to flank and after that first static defline 4-5 defenders set their height as a unit and after that fb close down opposition in flank. This gives time advantage for attacking team.

But they never exploit that advantage. Wide player doesn't start to dribble or cross the ball until FB closes him down.

26 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

Well, i guess it could be seen as "blocking" by the defender and it is up to the referee if this is a foul but then the saying goes: Foul is when the whistle (from the ref) sounds!

Block in football can only be done when there is a lot of players in the same area of the pitch. For example, during corners when there are a lot of players in the box. Block can be made so the player can run around it to find the space for header like thar Ronaldo goal against Ajax in the Champions League last year. There is no excuse to be "blocked" during a counter given the size of the football field.

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Losing my rag with the game seemingly not understanding how teams play late in games.

My team 0-0 in a game we're dominating, two minutes left, set to extremely high tempo and attacking. Yet I still see players taking 20/30 seconds over throw ins, players turning back to the keeper and, most infuriatingly, said keeper then taking two or three slow touches to move outside his box before playing a 15 yard pass to a defender he could have passes it to immediately. 

It seems impossible to make teams play like they would IRL in this situation- ie rushing to take quick short throws, not going back to the keeper unless there was no other option, keepers distributing quickly etc even if all the settings suggest they should be.

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I wanted to share with you this experience of mine.

I started a career setting the lowest coaching badge available managing an Italian Serie C club (like a League 1 team I think). Media predicted to end the season in the 13th place, but I flipped the odds on and finished 3rd, losing the promotion at the 2nd playoff round. The Board was extremely pleased, but this is not a british team so with the cash available I could only try to improve my team by hiring some free-agent lads, renewing some contracts and buy a packet ot crisps.

The new season was a nightmare, for the simple reason that after 10 games, 12 out of 17 goals conceded came from IFKs. I'll pass over this, as it was discussed enough. Inevitably, this resulted in a loss after loss. I was called by the Board, they asked me what was going wrong, I replied "hey we weren't that bad, we played well I'm sure we'll achieve in the near future!". I was so convincing that they sacked me (of course! How did I dare to say something like that?), being my team in 15th place (predicted 11th) after a loss against the team sitting at the top of the table.

Now I hope you see my point. This is more stupid and frustrating than real life. I mean, it's not that I was terribly underachiving and the sack was reasonable. But that's it. You are a weirdo, FM20.

I then began looking for a new job, after a couple of months (I was luckily watching a movie meanwhile) finally a club offered me an interview. I think I messed the things up when they asked me if I was able to improve my relations with media. I understand this is prioritary for a team struggling to avoid relegation being them at 19th place. I wasn't chosen in the end. Holidayed until March (while watching a documentary) and ready for a new interview,

So the suggestion is: always do something else while playing FM.

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These half time match stats show a common result between slight favourite (Bolton on the right) and slight underdog (Watford on the left). Note the 50-50 possession between the two teams but dramatically different average positions. Even when using extremely urgent pressing, high work rate players, and a much higher line of engagement, the favourite can't prevent the AI underdog from cowering in their own half. Both teams combined for zero key passes and chances, and the home team underdog attempted one shot with their 50% possession.

Positions.PNG

Stats.PNG

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29 minutes ago, Overmars said:

These half time match stats show a common result between slight favourite (Bolton on the right) and slight underdog (Watford on the left).

Common for you, you mean? Or was that an AI match? I see it doesn't say they used a 'defensive 4-1-2-3 DM Wide, or even a cautious one. In a match like that (cautious or even defensive opposition), I'm getting double the passes and much better possession that 50%.

I just played a match against a 'defensive 4-1-3-1-1 DM AM Narrow' and had only 54% possession and 338 out of 387 passes, but won 6-2 with 2 CCCs and 6 HCs.

Then next match was a match at home to one of the weaker teams in the league and they had a 'cautious 4-2-3-1 Wide'. It ended with 61% possession and 449 out of 497 passes completed. Apparently only 1 CCC and 0 HCs, but won 7-0.

The last match I played was against a lower half team and they were at home. Cautious 4-4-1-1, but they were a little more adventurous than the others. Still, 56% possession 453 out of 510 passes, 2 CCCs and 4 HCs for a 4-0 win.

There are improvements to be made, but at the same time, there's a balance to these things and all angles need to be looked at.

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Posted (edited)

I am in my 4th Season from my lowest german tier 6 league career start and i won 3 times the leagues and 2 times the cup but failed in the german Regionalliga promotion playoffs where i encountered the B-Teams from Augsburg (Tier1) and HSV (Tier2) and in the end missed promotion by 1 goal as 1 more goal in any of the 2 games would have made it for me but i was in a massive underdog position anyway and Regionalliga ist the first of the Amateurleagues where it is possible to stay afloat monetary wise so it does not kill me.

I have encountered so far 1 freak situation when my player missed a penalty and froze on the spot while the Ball hit the Woodwork and came back to said Player who did nothing and appeared to have been stalled out of the whole occasion while from elsewhere other players were chasing the ball - he could simply have kicked the Ball again for a sure goal as the GK hd jumped away in speculation and was nowhere able to do any kind of save.

But the player reacted to nothing and only moved after the Ball had been chased down by another player of the oposing team - the Ball literaly moved through his legs after bouncing back from the Woodwork in a slow speed.

Whily really annoying it was 1 Situation in 3 complete Seasons plus some matchdays in Season 4 and that is not to disturbing.

 

Edited by Etebaer

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17 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

I am in my 4th Season from my lowest german tier 6 league career start and i won 3 times the leagues and 2 times the cup but failed in the german Regionalliga promotion playoffs where i encountered the B-Teams from Augsburg (Tier1) and HSV (Tier2) and in the end missed promotion by 1 goal as 1 more goal in any of the 2 games would have made it for me but i was in a massive underdog position anyway and Regionalliga ist the first of the Amateurleagues where it is possible to stay afloat monetary wise so it does not kill me.

I have encountered so far 1 freak situation when my player missed a penalty and froze on the spot while the Ball hit the Woodwork and came back to said Player who did nothing and appeared to have been stalled out of the whole occasion while from elsewhere other players were chasing the ball - he could simply have kicked the Ball again for a sure goal as the GK hd jumped away in speculation and was nowhere able to do any kind of save.

But the player reacted to nothing and only moved after the Ball had been chased down by another player of the oposing team - the Ball literaly moved through his legs after bouncing back from the Woodwork in a slow speed.

Whily really annoying it was 1 Situation in 3 complete Seasons plus some matchdays in Season 4 and that is not to disturbing.

 

This is a rule in real life. The player can't touch the ball again after a penalty unless another player has touched it first. Since it hit the woodowork and not the keeper, the penalty taker can't touch the ball.

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Afaik that is only for a penalty shootout lke in cup games after ot and not for normal ingame penalties...at least that was my thought until now.

I will take a look into that...but thx for the hint :)

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2 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

Afaik that is only for a penalty shootout lke in cup games after ot and not for normal ingame penalties...at least that was my thought until now.

I will take a look into that...but thx for the hint :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)

The ball must be stationary before the kick, and it must be kicked forward. The ball is in play once it is kicked and moves, and at that time other players may enter the penalty area. Once kicked, the kicker may not touch the ball again until it has been touched by another player of either team or goes out of play (including into the goal).

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7 hours ago, Overmars said:

These half time match stats show a common result between slight favourite (Bolton on the right) and slight underdog (Watford on the left). Note the 50-50 possession between the two teams but dramatically different average positions. Even when using extremely urgent pressing, high work rate players, and a much higher line of engagement, the favourite can't prevent the AI underdog from cowering in their own half. Both teams combined for zero key passes and chances, and the home team underdog attempted one shot with their 50% possession.

Positions.PNG

Stats.PNG

I've managed to overcome these sorts of set ups but only by making my tactic quite extreme- highest tempo, shortest passing, work into the box, highest possible line of engagement etc etc. I'm not getting 60% possession most games and breaking teams down but it is pretty repetitive. 

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Posted (edited)
vor 13 Minuten schrieb rafaelbenitez:

Yeah, someone explained it to me once as if that was only the case for penalty shootouts and it did sound logical to me but the rules read that every penalty has it so.

Which i must say im am critical off as for an ingame penalty to execute the penalty means the game goes on normaly again and it is utmost foreign to me to disallow a player to continue with the normal game bcs he did hit the woodowrk instead the GK.

Every other shot that hits the woodwork that comes back to the player who shot can be shot again...it makes no sense for ingame penalties to be ruled different but who am i to criticise the board of rules... :D

PS: And to this day i do not understand why a GK is a factor in the offside rule - the GK has already a special role with special davantages in his Box i see no justification how he has any role in the offside decision...but again...who am i... :P

Edited by Etebaer

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13 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

Yeah, someone explained it to me once as if that was only the case for penalty shootouts and it did sound logical to me but the rules read that every penalty has it so.

Which i must say im am critical off as for an ingame penalty to execute the penalty means the game goes on normaly again and it is utmost foreign to me to disallow a player to continue with the normal game bcs he did hit the woodowrk instead the GK.

Every other shot that hits the woodwork that comes back to the player who shot can be shot again...it makes no sense for ingame penalties to be ruled different but who am i to criticise the board of rules... :D

PS: And to this day i do not understand why a GK is a factor in the offside rule - the GK has already a special role with special davantages in his Box i see no justification how he has any role in the offside decision...but again...who am i... :P

As far as I'm aware the rule is there to stop the penalty taker taking a touch before they shoot, the post part is just a side effect of that.

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1 hour ago, Etebaer said:

Yeah, someone explained it to me once as if that was only the case for penalty shootouts and it did sound logical to me but the rules read that every penalty has it so.

Which i must say im am critical off as for an ingame penalty to execute the penalty means the game goes on normaly again and it is utmost foreign to me to disallow a player to continue with the normal game bcs he did hit the woodowrk instead the GK.

Every other shot that hits the woodwork that comes back to the player who shot can be shot again...it makes no sense for ingame penalties to be ruled different but who am i to criticise the board of rules... :D

PS: And to this day i do not understand why a GK is a factor in the offside rule - the GK has already a special role with special davantages in his Box i see no justification how he has any role in the offside decision...but again...who am i... :P

It's for the same reason a player can't do a throw-in and throw the ball to himself or just start dribbling directly from a free-kick and similar.
That penalty rule has been in the game of football for a very long time.
It's a standard rule for set piece balls in general.

The GK is much like any other player only with a different role within the game. And it's not really the GK specifically. It's the 2 last defending players on the defending team that is considered, regardless of what position they are.
So in that manner, he doesn't have a role in it, per se. That's just how it ends up with how the managers/coaches set their teams up, in general. But it would be quite challenging to play without a GK.

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Posted (edited)

My eyes are bleeding.. One reason why strikers are strugling to find their place in this fm version. :D ofc if there would have been AMC it would have been different story. And even from ST point of view theres a lot wrong in this attack. No matter where ST goes he's not played. I would understand if he was mad after this build up.

EDIT. More analyzing later in this thread :D didnt see all.

Edited by Pasonen

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18 hours ago, Etebaer said:

Yeah, someone explained it to me once as if that was only the case for penalty shootouts and it did sound logical to me but the rules read that every penalty has it so.

Which i must say im am critical off as for an ingame penalty to execute the penalty means the game goes on normaly again and it is utmost foreign to me to disallow a player to continue with the normal game bcs he did hit the woodowrk instead the GK.

Every other shot that hits the woodwork that comes back to the player who shot can be shot again...it makes no sense for ingame penalties to be ruled different but who am i to criticise the board of rules... :D

PS: And to this day i do not understand why a GK is a factor in the offside rule - the GK has already a special role with special davantages in his Box i see no justification how he has any role in the offside decision...but again...who am i... :P

To clarify for you:

For any instance when the ball is being put back into play after the game has been stopped by the referee, ie: goal kick, throw in, kick-off, corner kick, penalty kick, the player taking any of these actions cannot touch the ball a second time till the ball has been played by another player from either side.

I am not sure what your query about the offside rule was but that rule specifies the minimum number of opposition players between the goal line and the ball and the GK is not specified:

A player is caught offside if he's nearer to the opponents' goal than both the ball and the second-last opponent when his team-mate plays the ball. In other words, a player can't receive the ball from a team-mate unless there are at least two players either level with him or between him and the goal.

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Posted (edited)

Thx for the clarifiaction!

I understand a throw in has to go to another player, that is how a throw in is played, or a corner, or kick off bcs they are meant to bring the ball back into play by playing it to another player.

What i mean is the very reason for a penalty is to score a goal via shot at goal from the penatly mark bcs there was a severe violation of the rules in a certain area of the playfield and the player does exaxctly that.

I can not see any reason why a missed penalty suddenly becomes like a corner or throw in etc. as that is not the purpose of a penalty and makes no sense to me.

Which is so rare to happen i never had given mich thought to it b4 - i probably misunderstood an explanation made many years ago when i watched a match on TV that went to ot and penalty shootout and developed careless the wrong impression after that.

 

For the offside in my language it does read as follow:

A player is offside if he is closer to the goal line than the second last opponent (including GK) and the ball.

Which i find strange...but that is me and i am totally ok with having other people thinking different about... :)

Edited by Etebaer

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20 minutes ago, Etebaer said:

What i mean is the very reason for a penalty is to score a goal via shot at goal from the penatly mark bcs there was a severe violation of the rules in a certain area of the playfield and the player does exaxctly that.

I can not see any reason why a missed penalty suddenly becomes like a corner or throw in etc. as that is not the purpose of a penalty and makes no sense to me.

That is the rule for all set pieces. It doesn't suddenly become like a corner or a throw in, it was always like that. You can shoot directly on goal from free kick too and if the ball would somehow go back to the free kick taker of the post, he is not allowed to play it. That is just unlikely to happen. Also you don't have to shoot from a penalty, you can pass the ball, but you can't pass it backwards. It's just the obvious choice to shoot from the penalty kick.

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3 hours ago, Pasonen said:

My eyes are bleeding.. One reason why strikers are strugling to find their place in this fm version. :D ofc if there would have been AMC it would have been different story. And even from ST point of view theres a lot wrong in this attack. No matter where ST goes he's not played. I would understand if he was mad after this build up.

 

I cannot tell you how often I see something similar. My strikers don't shoot enough in games and quite often it's because their movement is over-looked by players in possession. Drives me insane!

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Posted (edited)
8 ore fa, Pasonen ha scritto:

My eyes are bleeding.. One reason why strikers are strugling to find their place in this fm version. :D ofc if there would have been AMC it would have been different story. And even from ST point of view theres a lot wrong in this attack. No matter where ST goes he's not played. I would understand if he was mad after this build up.

 

there's maybe one instance of Silva being able to make a good pass in this example and it wasn't towards Haaland but Boadu :D  (in 8th second)

that being said, off the ball movement/passing decisioning in this game is mostly poor, but this wasn't really good example. It speaks more about how people playing this game have too high expectations or simply too low knowledge to be able to scrutinize the game in any useful manner.

Edited by MBarbaric

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

that being said, off the ball movement in this game is mostly poor, but this wasn't really good example. It speaks more about how people playing this game have too high expectations or simply too low knowledge to be able to scrutinize the game in any useful manner.

Theres quite many problems in this video and I understand my expectations are getting high but they must be like SI got high expectations.

Legs are doing the work in this attack when ball should be moving. Stop-pass is missing completely. 00:02 Sterling stop and pass Haaland or 00:03 wbr+Haaland, 00:08 silva stop pass Sterling but Sterling does not go for wide open central channel and Silva wants to dribble. Or 00:08 Silva stop and pass AML.

Edited by Pasonen

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I actually like Haaland movement in the first seconds of the video here. He was offside and then running wide allowed the defensive line to catch up to him and then he was onside.If you pause on 0:02 before Sterling was cloesd down that is a situation that you maybe could make a thorugh pass to Haaland if that situation was in real life but in FM unfortunately that is not the case because in FM vision can be impaired a lot when player is cutting inside so Haaland and WBR were not options for the pass here.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

I actually like Haaland movement in the first seconds of the video here. He was offside and then running wide allowed the defensive line to catch up to him and then he was onside.If you pause on 0:02 before Sterling was cloesd down that is a situation that you maybe could make a thorugh pass to Haaland if that situation was in real life but in FM unfortunately that is not the case because in FM vision can be impaired a lot when player is cutting inside so Haaland and WBR were not options for the pass here.

Like I said earlier theres a lot different scerarios how to play this through

"Legs are doing the work in this attack when ball should be moving. Stop-pass is missing completely. 00:02 Sterling stop and pass Haaland or 00:03 wbr+Haaland, 00:08 Silva stop pass Sterling but Sterling does not go for wide open central channel and Silva wants to dribble. Or 00:08 Silva stop and pass AML." 

But maybe the most worrying decision is that when in 00:04 Haaland got a chance to move central channel between dc's and be the threat he should be as a striker, He decides to move right wide channel. I understand this might also be matter of personal opinion but still the problem is central channel was not occupied at all until ball was in box. Not by Haaland or Sterling. 00:04 - 00:05 theres no one doing tip of the sword.

Edited by Pasonen

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On 27/05/2020 at 13:00, ArmataSalata said:

Just want to echo what's been said in a lot of the posts above...the headline is that this edition of FM just hasn't been fun to play, and that's down to the poor ME. Everything else in the game is great, you can have a brilliant time outside of matches, but there are so many head-in-hands moments watching the ME, that it removes any sense of enjoyment from the overall experience. It very often feels like the game is cheating, and no-one enjoys being cheated. An example of these kinds of issues has been my new save with LASK:

We start the season incredibly well, banging in the goals from everywhere, including a 9-1 aggregate win over Besiktas in CL. There's no clue from the game about anything fundamental wrong in my tactics – we're winning most games easily, and the defeats that do come happen against good teams, or in tight games where one goal wins it. In the first 17 games our record is W12 D0 L5. All well and good.

However, from game 18 it feels like the ME has decided to start screwing my team over. Our conversion percentage drops through the floor – in the following 9 games, we take 157 shots and score 4 goals, a rate of 2.5%, statistically improbable given the number of shots. We play several games where we batter teams, but they score their only chance. The opposition conversion percentage shoots up – in the same 9 games, we faced 70 shots and conceded 11 goals, a rate of 15.7%, not that improbable in isolation, but it is when combined with our low conversion rate. Furthermore, the goals we concede are often incredibly daft: defenders running away from onrushing attackers leaving them with a one-on-one, defenders getting dispossessed on the halfway line and giving up a one-on-one, full-backs vacating near/far post on a corner to leave an empty net, defenders slicing a goal-line clearance into their own net. When they're not daft goals, they're long-range belters that fly into the top corner. Really, in isolation, none of those are hugely unrealistic (which is often the SI defence for the ME), however the way they combine makes the player feel like they're being screwed over by a game that doesn't want them to win all of a sudden.

There's been no apparent change in our underlying performance – we're creating the same number of chances as before our 9-game disaster streak, we're not giving up more shots than before. There are two possibilities, and both are problematic for FM:

1. My tactics are flawed. Great, yes, perfectly feasible, but show me. Give me the information I need to see what's wrong. At the moment, the analysis tools in the game are either decorative (pass maps), pointless (Ass Man feedback), or broken (CCC conversion stats, most of the in-match analysis tab) – the game is bad at giving you the info you need to fix what's wrong. At the moment, I've had to create a spreadsheet to track shot numbers and conversion rate trends to detect whether my team have stopped performing, or whether it's just "bad luck". In the past, I've had a go at building an XG model for the same purpose. If the ME isn't broken, then this is stuff that should be in the game, to give players the tools they need to fix their tactical problems. Fix the current analysis tools, add the basic things that are part of real-world analysis but not in the game, and have staff give helpful feedback instead of the same 3-4 canned responses.

2. The ME is putting its finger on the scale. This is how it feels to me a lot of the time, and I have sympathy with those who insist there's some sort of RNG factor, even though it's probably not true. However, when I lay out the shot numbers as above (and as I've seen in other posts above), you really do have to wonder.

Ultimately, the ME is an incredibly complex piece of software and to have a simulation of football that is in any way realistic is a laudable achievement. The team at SI have been doing great work for years. However, this edition has been a step backwards in terms of the ME. The early issues with one-on-ones made the game literally unplayable over December, and I'm sure there was a bit inquiry internally about how that got past QA. While things have improved slightly, there are still so many little issues (I found I've experienced pretty much everything in this post above) that remain to be fixed, that I just can't play the game in my downtime without getting deeply irritated. From reading this thread, it seems I'm far from alone in this. That's a real problem, and I hope the SI team can focus on ME improvements above all else for FM21

 

I want to come back to this post, two months later, to reflect a bit more on how the ME affects enjoyment of FM 20.

The thought I had this morning – as I watched my team (Levante, different save to the one above) make countless daft errors in a 3-0 defeat – is that when I'm doing badly in FM, the current match engine gives me so much ammunition to blame it on the game that it's close to impossible to figure out what's actually going wrong. It's so tricky to carry out tactical problem-solving, as the genuine tactical mistakes are obfuscated by ME issues (or by the poor analysis tools available as mentioned above). When I look at a goal I've conceded, it's hard to look past my defender deciding to mark a static attacker while another runs right past him through on goal; or the player I've put on the edge of the area not moving while an opponent beside him takes his time to size up a shot; or my full-back bouncing the ball off an opponent to let them run into space (this gets marked as a successful tackle btw!); or any number of the other problems that have been raised in this thread. That, for me anyway, is the core of the problem with FM20 match engine.

Looking to the future, I'm encouraged by the fact that SI are hiring ME developers, and investing in the core of the game. I'm also encouraged that the FM 21 release is going to be delayed – while there's a COVID factor in this, it will also hopefully lead to a more polished initial release.

The constructive feedback I'd give SI (there's far too much feedback on here that's just moaning) is to focus on eradicating ME issues at the cost of new ME features, just for this next release. Give yourselves a stable platform to build on over the next few years. 

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Il 14/8/2020 in 08:51 , Pasonen ha scritto:

My eyes are bleeding.. One reason why strikers are strugling to find their place in this fm version. :D ofc if there would have been AMC it would have been different story. And even from ST point of view theres a lot wrong in this attack. No matter where ST goes he's not played. I would understand if he was mad after this build up.

 

To be honest my friend, I'm not seeing anything dramatic here. If ever (maybe someone mentioned it already) Haaland at 0:08/0:09 is too slow on cutting inside the box after moving sideway, but he does it indeed and he creates the space for Sterling to exploit the middle initially.

Pass decisioning... again yeah, as much as it happens in real games, from the tele I often blame why the ball has been passed to Mr.X instead of Mr.Y. Not really the best example amongts the other great ones you usually post.

Some marking decisioning seems a bit messy as well.

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Federico said:

To be honest my friend, I'm not seeing anything dramatic here. If ever (maybe someone mentioned it already) Haaland at 0:08/0:09 is too slow on cutting inside the box after moving sideway, but he does it indeed and he creates the space for Sterling to exploit the middle initially.

Pass decisioning... again yeah, as much as it happens in real games, from the tele I often blame why the ball has been passed to Mr.X instead of Mr.Y. Not really the best example amongts the other great ones you usually post.

Some marking decisioning seems a bit messy as well.

Yeah unfortunately I didnt catch everything at first look. Witch I added later. 

Like I said earlier theres a lot different scerarios how to play this through

"Legs are doing the work in this attack when ball should be moving. Stop-pass is missing completely. 00:02 Sterling stop and pass Haaland or 00:03 wbr+Haaland, 00:08 Silva stop pass Sterling but Sterling does not go for wide open central channel and Silva wants to dribble. Or 00:08 Silva stop and pass AML." 

But maybe the most worrying decision is that when in 00:04 Haaland got a chance to move central channel between dc's and be the threat he should be as a striker, He decides to move right wide channel. I understand this might also be matter of personal opinion but still the problem is central channel was not occupied at all until ball was in box. Not by Haaland or Sterling. 00:04 - 00:05 theres no one doing tip of the sword.

Anyway its almost unnecessary to post these anymore but I'm already waiting impatiently fm21 and new bugs to nag about and cant just be silent :D damn grey background.

Edited by Pasonen

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Posted (edited)

 

First of all sorry for bad English, I am using a translation in google translator.

Good night everyone!

I open this post to talk about the game's match engine and tactics, in the spirit of complaint.

I play Football Manager since its 2009 version and EMHO I consider this to be the worst version I ever played.

As soon as the game was launched in November 2019, the matches showed several defects such as the impossibility of scoring goals in hand-to-hand and the impossibility of scoring penalty goals, due to the goalkeeper covering all of them.

After a few long months without playing, about 3 weeks ago I started a new game with the updated game and after analyzing the performance of the game, the tactics and others I came to the conclusion that it still shows a huge number of defects that at this point in the game are inadmissible such as:

- In heads-up matches they are still impossible to score. I even have 2 or 3 heads up per game, and it is impossible for the striker to score the goal, even if your strikers are Rashford, Luis Suarez or Messi.

- It is extremely difficult to score goals, while the CPU makes them very easy. I have played many games, tried many tactics and etc; There are times that I kick at goal between 15-25 times and score 1 goal; the CPU goes 5-8 and hits 1 or even 2.

- The goals at the last minute - The players are very undisciplined in tactical matters, so that they do not fulfill the functions in general too much

- The winning tactic par excellence is 4-4-2. Using this training, you ALWAYS win.

- Playing possession football and winning would seem to be incompatible with the game

Anyway, this is a summary of some things that I remember about the defects of this game engine and the game itself.

I consider that there are many of them that are a kind of Bug like the 442, the impossible heads up, etc.

I do not know what you think about it, if the same thing happens to you or if you have a solution and others.

Hug!

Edited by FranAlv

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