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Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

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Posted (edited)

I think this sums it up: I was a goal down and, as my final attacking change, I replaced one centre back with a taller one because I knew a set piece was my best/only chance to score.

In previous versions, there's always been an acceptance that there would be bugs at release, but they would be sorted out by the winter patch. I think this is the first time – in terms of the match engine, at least – that this absolutely hasn't been the case. 

Edited by Eddie Boop

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1 minute ago, dolph11 said:

He doesn't want the game to be easier. He wants it to represent football more realistically. 

since i have no idea about how the match actually play out for him, i am replying regarding to his complaints about the injuries. Or is he asking for more injuries? Sorry if i misunderstood that. if he wants realistic injuries, he will get A LOT more injuries since FM toned down injury frequency compared to real life which he can also do it by downloading a realistic injury mod or through the editor itself. the scenario he described is not too far away from a realistic match either. Chelsea scored from their only corner in their famous match against Bayern in the 2012 Champions league final. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_UEFA_Champions_League_Final#Statistics

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1 hour ago, jc1 said:

Food poisoning for 3-4 days, bruised ankle 3-4 days, twisted ankle 3-4 days...constant niggly wee injuries all season long.

Now imagine if SI didn't decrease the amount of injuries we get in comparison to real world (80-85%, IIRC?), thanks to posts like this.

And then people are crying for more realism. :lol:

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This is probably question for the skinning forum, but so I don't open a new thread just because of this there -

Do you guys maybe know some FM 2020 skin that has larger player icons/jerseys on a tactic screen?

Thank you

 

Screenshot_8.png

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1 hour ago, zyfon5 said:

if you want the game to be easier just get an in game editor

Who said I wanted it easier, winning games and cups are not a problem, watching a horrendous ME with 80% goals all pretty much the same, players getting silly wee injuries every 2-3 days, goalkeepers struggle to get past 6.7 even when they play like De Gea, defenders dawdling on the ball allowing the striker to take it off them and score, keepers kicking the ball off the back of my striker for a goal, winger with high dribble attributes and skills unable to stop himself from simply running with the ball into touch with no one around him, all wide players shooting from ridiculous angles even when they're told to look for the pass.

I won the treble with Hibs very easily, beat both the OF teams and won the league by 14 pts, apart from the odd great pass or brilliant bit of skill the rest bores the hell out of me. I shouldn't have to make tactics just to beat the multiple bugs in the ME, I want to make a tactic that works because the players I have make it work and not because it exposes the flaws in the ME.

Also I should not have to buy the in game editor to get rid of silly injuries etc that the game gives you, I just want it to be more realistic. This has been done to death on this forum, my last post was just me venting my frustrations.

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45 minutes ago, jc1 said:

Who said I wanted it easier, winning games and cups are not a problem, watching a horrendous ME with 80% goals all pretty much the same, players getting silly wee injuries every 2-3 days, goalkeepers struggle to get past 6.7 even when they play like De Gea, defenders dawdling on the ball allowing the striker to take it off them and score, keepers kicking the ball off the back of my striker for a goal, winger with high dribble attributes and skills unable to stop himself from simply running with the ball into touch with no one around him, all wide players shooting from ridiculous angles even when they're told to look for the pass.

I won the treble with Hibs very easily, beat both the OF teams and won the league by 14 pts, apart from the odd great pass or brilliant bit of skill the rest bores the hell out of me. I shouldn't have to make tactics just to beat the multiple bugs in the ME, I want to make a tactic that works because the players I have make it work and not because it exposes the flaws in the ME.

Also I should not have to buy the in game editor to get rid of silly injuries etc that the game gives you, I just want it to be more realistic. This has been done to death on this forum, my last post was just me venting my frustrations.

well i do not have issues with goal variants in this ME nor having any problem with using very different tactics to win games. do i get these problems that you described above? sometimes but within a reasonable range for me. and a quick look at the tactics forum will tell you people can win games using very different tactics and not by exposing the flaws in the ME. If you want realistic injuries, then you will see a lot more injuries than what you have in game right now. And very often these small injuries happened in real life without most people noticing. Of course everyone has their own different expectations of realism and I am not disagreeing with them either. Just want to offer a different perspective.

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49 minutes ago, ArmataSalata said:

Just want to echo what's been said in a lot of the posts above...the headline is that this edition of FM just hasn't been fun to play, and that's down to the poor ME. Everything else in the game is great, you can have a brilliant time outside of matches, but there are so many head-in-hands moments watching the ME, that it removes any sense of enjoyment from the overall experience. It very often feels like the game is cheating, and no-one enjoys being cheated. An example of these kinds of issues has been my new save with LASK:

We start the season incredibly well, banging in the goals from everywhere, including a 9-1 aggregate win over Besiktas in CL. There's no clue from the game about anything fundamental wrong in my tactics – we're winning most games easily, and the defeats that do come happen against good teams, or in tight games where one goal wins it. In the first 17 games our record is W12 D0 L5. All well and good.

However, from game 18 it feels like the ME has decided to start screwing my team over. Our conversion percentage drops through the floor – in the following 9 games, we take 157 shots and score 4 goals, a rate of 2.5%, statistically improbable given the number of shots. We play several games where we batter teams, but they score their only chance. The opposition conversion percentage shoots up – in the same 9 games, we faced 70 shots and conceded 11 goals, a rate of 15.7%, not that improbable in isolation, but it is when combined with our low conversion rate. Furthermore, the goals we concede are often incredibly daft: defenders running away from onrushing attackers leaving them with a one-on-one, defenders getting dispossessed on the halfway line and giving up a one-on-one, full-backs vacating near/far post on a corner to leave an empty net, defenders slicing a goal-line clearance into their own net. When they're not daft goals, they're long-range belters that fly into the top corner. Really, in isolation, none of those are hugely unrealistic (which is often the SI defence for the ME), however the way they combine makes the player feel like they're being screwed over by a game that doesn't want them to win all of a sudden.

There's been no apparent change in our underlying performance – we're creating the same number of chances as before our 9-game disaster streak, we're not giving up more shots than before. There are two possibilities, and both are problematic for FM:

1. My tactics are flawed. Great, yes, perfectly feasible, but show me. Give me the information I need to see what's wrong. At the moment, the analysis tools in the game are either decorative (pass maps), pointless (Ass Man feedback), or broken (CCC conversion stats, most of the in-match analysis tab) – the game is bad at giving you the info you need to fix what's wrong. At the moment, I've had to create a spreadsheet to track shot numbers and conversion rate trends to detect whether my team have stopped performing, or whether it's just "bad luck". In the past, I've had a go at building an XG model for the same purpose. If the ME isn't broken, then this is stuff that should be in the game, to give players the tools they need to fix their tactical problems. Fix the current analysis tools, add the basic things that are part of real-world analysis but not in the game, and have staff give helpful feedback instead of the same 3-4 canned responses.

2. The ME is putting its finger on the scale. This is how it feels to me a lot of the time, and I have sympathy with those who insist there's some sort of RNG factor, even though it's probably not true. However, when I lay out the shot numbers as above (and as I've seen in other posts above), you really do have to wonder.

Ultimately, the ME is an incredibly complex piece of software and to have a simulation of football that is in any way realistic is a laudable achievement. The team at SI have been doing great work for years. However, this edition has been a step backwards in terms of the ME. The early issues with one-on-ones made the game literally unplayable over December, and I'm sure there was a bit inquiry internally about how that got past QA. While things have improved slightly, there are still so many little issues (I found I've experienced pretty much everything in this post above) that remain to be fixed, that I just can't play the game in my downtime without getting deeply irritated. From reading this thread, it seems I'm far from alone in this. That's a real problem, and I hope the SI team can focus on ME improvements above all else for FM21

 

Just a heads up- Do not use conversion rate to gauge any team performance. It is not the stat you should be looking into to find problems. Same with shots on target, shot numbers and CCC. While I do agree that the game is lacking in more advanced statistics like xG, most people will not be able to interpret the statistics properly even if they are given these statistics as all statistics will need to be look into in context with what is happening in game. Even professional football clubs struggle to interpret data properly. Liverpool for all their praise with their data driven decisions right now didnt get it right the first time and ended up with transfer blunders like Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing. For example, even xG from the same match will fluctuate with different data providers so it is an analysis tool that should be used with caution. Due to the fact that the game can't even determine what is a clear cut chance properly i have very little hope that SI can calculate xG in the near future which is a more complex calculation. Giving you the tools is another problem, knowing how to use it is another problem.

Regarding the RNG factor, football is found to be one of the sports most influenced by luck. Basically what the researchers do is compare the betting odds with real life results of major sports like basketball and baseball and found out that the team expected to win in football wins less than 50% of the time. I couldnt recall the details of the paper but if anyone is interested in looking at it can PM me and I try to dig it out. Once you realized that football is much more random than you think only then you can properly look at why you lose and why you win.

If you have any problems with your tactics, feel free to drop by your questions at the tactics forum.

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4 ore fa, jc1 ha scritto:

Throw in...GOAL, free kick...Goal, corner...Goal, through balls for 1v1...MISS, attempts on goal 42...on target 23 and win 1-0. 

Food poisoning for 3-4 days, bruised ankle 3-4 days, twisted ankle 3-4 days...constant niggly wee injuries all season long.

 

As I said before, no problem winning but this version of the game is just horrendous and for me impossible to get into it properly, no enjoyment whatsoever.

I instead am totally fed up with hip injuries. I don't know, maybe someone here can shine me up about this, but I don't remember a player currently playing who suffered this and needed some surgery. Nonetheless it's a well reoccurrant injury in FM. I can't explain this.

And yes, other points are well documented, shared by the vast majority of the community and even acknowledged by devs, at disregard of what a couple of users may think.

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26 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

Just a heads up- Do not use conversion rate to gauge any team performance. It is not the stat you should be looking into to find problems. Same with shots on target, shot numbers and CCC. While I do agree that the game is lacking in more advanced statistics like xG, most people will not be able to interpret the statistics properly even if they are given these statistics as all statistics will need to be look into in context with what is happening in game. Even professional football clubs struggle to interpret data properly. Liverpool for all their praise with their data driven decisions right now didnt get it right the first time and ended up with transfer blunders like Andy Carroll and Stewart Downing. For example, even xG from the same match will fluctuate with different data providers so it is an analysis tool that should be used with caution. Due to the fact that the game can't even determine what is a clear cut chance properly i have very little hope that SI can calculate xG in the near future which is a more complex calculation. Giving you the tools is another problem, knowing how to use it is another problem.

Regarding the RNG factor, football is found to be one of the sports most influenced by luck. Basically what the researchers do is compare the betting odds with real life results of major sports like basketball and baseball and found out that the team expected to win in football wins less than 50% of the time. I couldnt recall the details of the paper but if anyone is interested in looking at it can PM me and I try to dig it out. Once you realized that football is much more random than you think only then you can properly look at why you lose and why you win.

If you have any problems with your tactics, feel free to drop by your questions at the tactics forum.

Thanks zyfon5, a helpful reply. Probably clumsy wording on my part, but the point I was trying to make was that I wasn't equating conversion rate with performance, it was the opposite – my team seemed to be performing at roughly the same level, but conversion rates took an unlikely drop on my side, and a moderate bounce on the opposing side, leading to the feeling that the ME was screwing me over, especially given the nature of the goals we conceded. As I said, it's only a feeling, but it's a pretty crappy one.

However, I do think shot numbers and especially quality of shot (clear-cut and half-chances) are reasonable gauges of a team's performance level. I agree that there's little chance of SI building a working XG model into the game, which is a shame as it's so prevalent these days. I'd settle for them fixing some of the tools that are currently in the game!

You make an excellent point about luck/random variation influencing IRL football. However, this goes against a lot of what's said in defence of the ME – the assumption is often "it's your tactics mate". You also say "Once you realized that football is much more random than you think only then you can properly look at why you lose and why you win" – this is true, but what does that leave us with? If we don't have shot numbers, or proper analysis tools within the game, how can we look? I know I can go ask questions on the tactics forum and get help from some very smart people there, but for the average player who might play 4-6 hours a week, they shouldn't have to go outside the game for help. There could and should be much more helpful tactical and statistical feedback within the game. That, combined with fixing the most glaring 5 or 6 ME issues, would make FM21 an enjoyable game for me again

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16 hours ago, Courage89 said:

So little update on my Bayern Munich save - now I’m in the 2034/35 season. My honest opinion - the games fine. 1 on 1s are a bit skewed but tbh - the game is fantastic. 
I’ve now started to figure out the nuances of the engine and the games got most things down to a tee. Won the champs league twice, league 4 times. 
In terms of the game it’s the first time in my opinion that not only are traits a must, but the right ones as well. Solving finishing in the game came down to one trait. Places shots. If any of your strikers learns this trait, the game becomes infinitely easier. Players who couldn’t get over 10 goals were now hitting 20/25 per season. 
Tactics also matter and you DO need to learn about your players, which means playing games. I managed to get my team firstly competent and win the league playing 4231, we were efficient on the ball but rubbish at finishing. I started dabbling with 343/352 and was starting to get better results. In the end I’ve actually settled on 442. I’ve been unbeaten using 442, then tried the tiki taka Guardiola tactic which is on YouTube uploaded by FM Scout and realised about half way through that it’s good, but it’s nowhere near as good for me personally as my 442 so I went back to it and comfortably won the league. 
There has been one amusing bug which I screenshotted which showed a future vision from my new chairman but it was notifying me that it came from my old chairman. 
Honestly though the games fine. Work on the correct traits, especially places shots trait for all strikers and the game gets so much easier!

 

3 hours ago, Pasonen said:

@Weston

Here seems to be one positive feedback for places shot. Weird. ;)

 

Interesting! I feel a lot better about instructing the below player to place his shots, then. @Courage89, when you say "for all strikers," I assume there is some floor, though, right? I would usually not train a player to do something specific unless the pertinent attributes are at least 16ish, no?

image.thumb.png.a8d5929b5a18de0b08503952e7dc7f11.png

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8 minutes ago, ArmataSalata said:

You make an excellent point about luck/random variation influencing IRL football. However, this goes against a lot of what's said in defence of the ME – the assumption is often "it's your tactics mate". You also say "Once you realized that football is much more random than you think only then you can properly look at why you lose and why you win" – this is true, but what does that leave us with? If we don't have shot numbers, or proper analysis tools within the game, how can we look? I know I can go ask questions on the tactics forum and get help from some very smart people there, but for the average player who might play 4-6 hours a week, they shouldn't have to go outside the game for help. There could and should be much more helpful tactical and statistical feedback within the game. That, combined with fixing the most glaring 5 or 6 ME issues, would make FM21 an enjoyable game for me again

While luck obviously plays a big factor in every sport including  football, a good tactic will still give you an edge over your opponents more so in a more controlled environment like a simulation game-Football Manager. However whereas a good tactic will probably increase your chances of winning by 10% in basketball this percentage might drop to let's say 6% in football so you will need to take every bit of advantage you can to increase your chances of winning. Where a football ended up after it bounces off someone's head is going to be much more random than where a basketball will end up after hitting the board. You can see the complexity and randomness of football in play here. But you can still give your team an edge by designing a great tactic that fits your players to maximize your chances of winning the second ball.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ArmataSalata said:

my team seemed to be performing at roughly the same level, but conversion rates took an unlikely drop on my side, and a moderate bounce on the opposing side, leading to the feeling that the ME was screwing me over, especially given the nature of the goals we conceded. As I said, it's only a feeling, but it's a pretty crappy one.

I think its just lack of scenarios inside the game what makes us blame ME. Worse periods need more variation not just bad finishing. Playmaker pass% dropping, goalkeeper deflects 2 easy shots to goal, yes strikers not hitting goal, unlucky bounse, bad backpass from dc etc. There's always more behind the obvious not just players not hitting the net.. more fixable problems inside the game for us thank you SI ;)

Edit. Of course this have to be calculated from concentration, personality,hidden personality info. I think it is already done so. Now general stantard of playing is too high, too perfect passing and defending. (Defending perfect in its own android way. Calmnes, standing without reacting is not very humane and it got its strengths. :D ). Then after that comes 10 games "you cant score phase" it might feel too mutch and artificial.

Edited by Pasonen

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As mentioned before I think in FM'19 also in here; creative and agile playmakers- or whatever role in AM position maybe any position- takes his time to turn around with the ball pass back to deep playmakers then those make the through pass. Timing should be everything in football. It is very frequent I see here. Opponent running back faster than creative player turn direction with the ball.

And as in  bug reports I don't see team mentalities work good enough below balanced. Lower mentalities rarely pass forward.

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1 hour ago, baris28 said:

As mentioned before I think in FM'19 also in here; creative and agile playmakers- or whatever role in AM position maybe any position- takes his time to turn around with the ball pass back to deep playmakers then those make the through pass. Timing should be everything in football. It is very frequent I see here. Opponent running back faster than creative player turn direction with the ball.

And as in  bug reports I don't see team mentalities work good enough below balanced. Lower mentalities rarely pass forward.

I’ve played a cautious mentality for 14 seasons now. I can assure you that my amc attacking midfielder on support passes the ball forwards.

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Posted (edited)

@Weston it certainly makes it easier to learn the trait yes and the higher the attributes the better. I’m speculating here but I think the specific accuracy trait for converting chances is quite low in this version of ME. Unusually so in comparison to past FMs. Places shots trait seems to compensate by generating a chance within the ME at a higher rate, with another higher rate added to the chance being finished. At least I believe that’s what happens. Sure the shots weaker but power of shot isn’t a problem in this particular ME, the accuracy though is! So I wanted to even that up and I believe that’s how you do it. 
Just another update for those in here who complain with no reasoning. I decided to jack it in with Bayern Munich and took over in league 2 with Accrington Stanley. Short end of it even taking into account signings we are shocking talent wise. Half way through the season predicted 14th, currently 13th. But, I’ve now trusted my previous 4-4-2 formation from my Bayern team after dabbling looking at wing play 4-4-2 and cautious wing play styles that were seen as good for the team. After a rubbish start to the season (I think I was 3 games away from the sack personally) we’re now 6 points away from the play off spots so I think my tactic is quite good. I’m not angry at the ME for when I lose games now though. My players just aren’t good at executing what I want and at times it’s infuriating and also hard to accept. The amount of dumb mistakes that happen just happens because they really aren’t good players. Sucks but true!

Edited by Courage89

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The most funny game I have ever lost.

Maybe a coach would have a word to the team after such a result, or likely hanging them to the lockers. So I hold a meeting and all I can say is basically "well it's ok guys" caressing their cheeks, patting their shoulders.

Aaaalright.

image.JPG

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5 hours ago, Courage89 said:

@Weston it certainly makes it easier to learn the trait yes and the higher the attributes the better. I’m speculating here but I think the specific accuracy trait for converting chances is quite low in this version of ME. Unusually so in comparison to past FMs. Places shots trait seems to compensate by generating a chance within the ME at a higher rate, with another higher rate added to the chance being finished. At least I believe that’s what happens. Sure the shots weaker but power of shot isn’t a problem in this particular ME, the accuracy though is! So I wanted to even that up and I believe that’s how you do it. 

Forgive me but can you explain this a little more? I'm not sure I fully understand. I don't have as good a grasp on what goes on under the hood to be honest.

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4 hours ago, Federico said:

The most funny game I have ever lost.

Maybe a coach would have a word to the team after such a result, or likely hanging them to the lockers. So I hold a meeting and all I can say is basically "well it's ok guys" caressing their cheeks, patting their shoulders.

Aaaalright.

image.JPG

Runned km 121 vs 103. :/

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4 ore fa, Pasonen ha scritto:

Runned km 121 vs 103. :/

And that was from the goalkeeper!

:D

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13 saat önce, Tyburn said:

I’ve played a cautious mentality for 14 seasons now. I can assure you that my amc attacking midfielder on support passes the ball forwards.

I think it is this post under review. I was not aware of this. But doesn't seem to be related to offensive players I guess. More about AI related tactics.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, baris28 said:

I think it is this post under review. I was not aware of this. But doesn't seem to be related to offensive players I guess. More about AI related tactics.

 

In this posts examples are from games where is higher deflines and higher loes against defensive AI all game long. This defending team bottling up in own area dc receiving 100 passes need opponent with higher loes in my experience. In first versions of fm20 we saw defending teams punt longballs to st and went for 1v1. Now its fixed but ME really wasnt ready for that change. Now theres no winning logic in keeping men behind ball and hit with counters because theres no fwd runs to empty spaces right after defending team gets interceptions. Now AI does the right thing when it defends but that tactic doesnt work in its current state against high pressing attacking team. That means this games competitines takes a big hit because AI just waits... waits.. playing dead and bear keep eating him. :D

Edited by Pasonen

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Some minor feedback I'd like to provide, and the game has gotten massively better at this since last year, but quite a lot of generated players/staff faces just look...off. Dodgy hairstyles, dodgy facial hair, dodgy hair/beard colour combination, skin tones that do not match the ethnicity and general disproportionate facial features are quite common. I think it's a minor but nice improvement if SI could improve this going forward. 

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Right, any more personal attacks or digs at others will result in thread removal, please start respecting each others different opinions and views otherwise we will have to take action. All views are welcome as long as they are constructive. Do not attempt to shut people down on it

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On 27/05/2020 at 18:42, Zemahh said:

Now imagine if SI didn't decrease the amount of injuries we get in comparison to real world (80-85%, IIRC?), thanks to posts like this.

And then people are crying for more realism. :lol:

I will argue fm19 was probably the closest we got to realistic injuries but then I remember people complaining about too many injuries at that time. I feel that SI has toned down injury frequency in this year's game after the backlash from last year. And now people wants more realistic injuries again. Sigh. Same with crossing this year. Initially people complained about wingers and wing backs not making any crosses and the crossing accuracy was too low. So SI has bumped both up and now crossing accuracy is way too high compared to real life and players start racking a ton of shots from crosses. And the game has in fact turned unrealistic because of this change.

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About injuries. I'm not sure who can claim to have realistic figures to compare with real life. I, in example, am usually handling about 70-80 injuries per season (more or less). This is above the average, but what average are we talking about? I mean, how can we say "we are on par with RL injuries"... but from which league? in which year? How was the average age of the league? what about training facilities? can we add some "unluck" factor? And the weather? All these factors affect the status of health of a player (and many more, but still, this is a game...)

Stating "we're ok with the injuries %" or saying "we're above/under the injuries %" to me is just an abstract concept.

A proper feedback would be related between training struggle --> team rotation --> team age average --> individual injury history. I can bring on my example. I use customised trainings, I do 4-5 weeks of intensive fitness trainings on summer camp, some high intensity trainings to develop defensive/technic/attacking skills and medium/lenient trainings along the rest of the season. Nonetheless I'm plagued by light injuries (re-occurring 2-3 days before a game, as the most of us are experiencing. Just... why that??) and I suffer few long terms injuries. I do massive turn-over especially in the second part of the season due to concentration of games. This does not give me any benefit anyway.

I don't want realistic injuries, I want some coherence mixed with some enjoyement. I want coherence with injuries being them related to what happened on the pitch (example: a player jogs, then he stops resulting in a broken leg, or the aforementioned hip injuries, a very rare injury occurring to player who have walked too many pitches along too many years) and I don't want them to happen that often, because what's the fun to build your team just to see it decimated week after week?

Same kind of logic can apply to crossing, or shots, or finishing, or headers..... We now have even some goals on offside being allowed and some regular being disallowed, and say goodbye to VAR.

Tweaking things it's not easy. But I could never imagine tweaking/fixing this kind of things happening in FM was so hard and difficult and needed such a long time to get them right, more than any other game I remember.

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Am I reading into these statistics wrong or are goalkeepers making a crazy number of saves this edition? 

In the two screenshots below, I respectively have keepers saving 21 and 15 shots against me in two matches which occurred in the same season, both of which exceed the highest number of saves ever made in a Premier League match which currently stands at 14 apparently (I know the former is in the UCL but the point still stands really): 

image.thumb.png.d9d18400a9fec0e2b1fd4bcb5c0c46f4.png

image.thumb.png.4c72dd0c2d52f313972bf29685bc543d.png

I mean I know I'm no tactical genius but it really feels like the match engine is compensating for a ridiculously high number of high quality chances being created by also making goalkeepers unbelievably good at times. 

 

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@Nick_CB its much easier for the Devs to see posts when they are not hidden by "insignifcant" comments as you say, hence yours has been removed. Please bear that in mind

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Posted (edited)

I just lost a cup final because of two set pieces. Floated the ball in, header. Seems like a continuous issue in which I always lose big games because of set-pieces. 

Now I know I've complained enough about this, so in the interest of being more positive, is there ANYTHING I can do to stop this? I trained defending set pieces all week, I've actually downloaded various set-piece routines for defence. Yet the set-pieces keep flying in (usually free kick crosses for a header). 

It just kills the motivation for the game. I'm keeping record now and pretty much every major game I play that I lose is decided by an AI set-piece. 

Again, I know I've complained about this to death and received a (deserved) warning for a foul mouthed rant regarding set-pieces...now I'm trying to be more positive, is there anything I can do to stop it or am I doomed to having to live with this? 

Edited by Travis Bickle

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I have to say that after not buying FM 2019, I really do enjoy the new version in general. Many aspects are really good and I could say that I enjoy many of them: big teams seem much harder to beat now and the AI is producing way more realistic results in the leagues, which makes it much more enjoyable. 

Match Engine on the other hand will always be the one that will cause lot of discussion and although I'm also enjoying many things in the engine, there are of course things to be raised.

- First of all the developers most definitely should start considering strikers and AMs to drop way deeper when the team is defending. At the moment the distance between the most advanced player of the team to the defense line is way too big and this creates many very illogical situations. First of all it takes away a lot of compactness of teams when defending and causes way more hoof balls than needed. Second thing is that for example DMs and attacking fullbacks and wingbacks have way too much freedom to operate on the pitch.

I have tried 'solving' this by setting my striker to mark one of the opposition midfielders and in general only doing this makes the engine look way better. This of course is only partial solution as the strikers' job in general is to press the defenders and GK in possession, so this is not a working fix in general. The FBs and WBs probably don't need to be mentioned here. You can of course make a fix to this by dropping AMLRs to MR and ML position but what is the solution for those thousands of AI teams that are not going to do this?

- Midfield creativity. I absolutely love how SI have made the midfield way tighter now. Compared to FM 18 the amount of pass attempts that a deep lying forward or midfielders in general have dropped to half or even three times lower than before as should. The thing is though that I am not really seeing too much creativity and really rarely see a creative midfielder playing either a long or short through balls to an in cutting wide player or striker. Wide players currently are the main creators which could be the case in some teams. I general playmakers should be dominating assists charts and chances created statistics though. 

Okay, I could mention that one of the problems here is that the game still is quite poor at counting HCs and CCCs. These statistics are lacking lot of chances that should be recorded (sometimes even scoring from the goal line is not considered even as a HC), so this at least in terms of my team doesn't give enough credit to my midfielders. They are creating chances but the game doesn't give them the credit for that.

- Defensive positioning and engagement. Has improved but there are still issues with this. No-one probably wants to see a striker or winger collecting a long ball in the midfield, without anyone from defense engaging with them, and gaining speed before easily dribbling past the defender. This in general is way better than it has been in previous versions but there are still instances when even a really small striker can act like the best target-man on the planet as no one from the defensive line follows them.

- Throw-ins. I think long throws have been noticed already but the short ones should definitely also be mentioned as they still seem to be one of the main sources for chances created. These don't have anything to do with football and how it should be represented in the engine. At least on my games and the ones that I have seen people streaming in Twitch, I would say that even 60-70% of the highlights start with throw-ins. Many might consider this as a really minor issue but I would say that the developers most definitely should put a lot effort on the engine so that it can produce chances from open play instead of relying so heavily on set pieces.

- Goal kicks. For the love of God, please teach the goalkeepers how to kick the ball. When playing for example in Finnish highest division, none of the goalkeepers can even reach the halfway line with their goal kicks and this is all the time creating dangerous situations. Once again an issue that has been present for years and I don’t remember any goalkeeper IRL that cannot comfortably reach the halfway line with their kicks.

- Through on goals. Many people mention finishing but I would see the amount of these kind of chances as the main problem. In my opinion these type of scoring chances should not be as regular as they have been for years within the ME.

- General intelligence and the tendency to clear the ball. This is nerfing counter attacking play a lot in my opinion. At least at lower levels of football, defenders are way too prone on playing the ball long even under no pressure. A plenty of counter attacking opportunities are ruined by this. I think that the strikers' defensive positioning (too high) plays a role in there as there always tends to be a 'target' high up the pitch which could be explaining this behavior partially. I have personally very rarely seen either a long ball or a clearance from defense that has made me think "that was well done". 

But the clearing from your own area most of the times is really stupid behavior that even 5-year-old football players would not be doing. Most of the long balls and clearances that your centre backs will be playing make no sense at all and have zero possibility to be profitable for your team. Basically every, even amateur footballer, should be able to make decently intelligent decision on these, especially when no under real pressure.

- Counter attacking in general is still quite poor and you mainly see them after set pieces where the attacking side cannot have a player at the edge of the area as there seems to be a bug that the player lurking outside the area always shifts inside the penalty area. This in general leads to a situation where you can basically set your whole team attacking and press high up the pitch without much fear of being hit by a counter. I have seen people playing with very attacking style of plays without being hit by a break basically single time during a full season. 

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53 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

- Counter attacking in general is still quite poor and you mainly see them after set pieces where the attacking side cannot have a player at the edge of the area as there seems to be a bug that the player lurking outside the area always shifts inside the penalty area. This in general leads to a situation where you can basically set your whole team attacking and press high up the pitch without much fear of being hit by a counter. I have seen people playing with very attacking style of plays without being hit by a break basically single time during a full season. 

generally can agree with all the things mentioned above. however i would like to elaborate more on the counter attacking from set piece. I'm not sure the bug affects everyone as I have scored a few goals from counter attacks from set pieces from the players that i have set at the edge of area and they seem to be working fine as instructed from what I have seen. However another problem that have existed since FM18 is opposition instructions in normal match seems to conflict with the player instructions in set pieces resulting in some weird situations where a player doesnt obey his set piece instructions and follow the opposition instructions for example to mark a specific player. Other problems that are created by the set piece marking system can be found in this excellent post: http://www.fmrensie.net/2020/04/21/fm20-conceding-from-the-set-pieces/

A possible solution that I can think of is to lock all the set piece instructions to be position specific and not under player instructions and create a vacuum period during a set piece play so that players will not be affected by normal positional marking settings during that time and focus on what they are being asked to do during a set piece.

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1 hour ago, Broken_Record said:

I have to say that after not buying FM 2019, I really do enjoy the new version in general. Many aspects are really good and I could say that I enjoy many of them: big teams seem much harder to beat now and the AI is producing way more realistic results in the leagues, which makes it much more enjoyable. 

Match Engine on the other hand will always be the one that will cause lot of discussion and although I'm also enjoying many things in the engine, there are of course things to be raised.

- First of all the developers most definitely should start considering strikers and AMs to drop way deeper when the team is defending. At the moment the distance between the most advanced player of the team to the defense line is way too big and this creates many very illogical situations. First of all it takes away a lot of compactness of teams when defending and causes way more hoof balls than needed. Second thing is that for example DMs and attacking fullbacks and wingbacks have way too much freedom to operate on the pitch.

I have tried 'solving' this by setting my striker to mark one of the opposition midfielders and in general only doing this makes the engine look way better. This of course is only partial solution as the strikers' job in general is to press the defenders and GK in possession, so this is not a working fix in general. The FBs and WBs probably don't need to be mentioned here. You can of course make a fix to this by dropping AMLRs to MR and ML position but what is the solution for those thousands of AI teams that are not going to do this?

- Midfield creativity. I absolutely love how SI have made the midfield way tighter now. Compared to FM 18 the amount of pass attempts that a deep lying forward or midfielders in general have dropped to half or even three times lower than before as should. The thing is though that I am not really seeing too much creativity and really rarely see a creative midfielder playing either a long or short through balls to an in cutting wide player or striker. Wide players currently are the main creators which could be the case in some teams. I general playmakers should be dominating assists charts and chances created statistics though. 

Okay, I could mention that one of the problems here is that the game still is quite poor at counting HCs and CCCs. These statistics are lacking lot of chances that should be recorded (sometimes even scoring from the goal line is not considered even as a HC), so this at least in terms of my team doesn't give enough credit to my midfielders. They are creating chances but the game doesn't give them the credit for that.

- Defensive positioning and engagement. Has improved but there are still issues with this. No-one probably wants to see a striker or winger collecting a long ball in the midfield, without anyone from defense engaging with them, and gaining speed before easily dribbling past the defender. This in general is way better than it has been in previous versions but there are still instances when even a really small striker can act like the best target-man on the planet as no one from the defensive line follows them.

- Throw-ins. I think long throws have been noticed already but the short ones should definitely also be mentioned as they still seem to be one of the main sources for chances created. These don't have anything to do with football and how it should be represented in the engine. At least on my games and the ones that I have seen people streaming in Twitch, I would say that even 60-70% of the highlights start with throw-ins. Many might consider this as a really minor issue but I would say that the developers most definitely should put a lot effort on the engine so that it can produce chances from open play instead of relying so heavily on set pieces.

- Goal kicks. For the love of God, please teach the goalkeepers how to kick the ball. When playing for example in Finnish highest division, none of the goalkeepers can even reach the halfway line with their goal kicks and this is all the time creating dangerous situations. Once again an issue that has been present for years and I don’t remember any goalkeeper IRL that cannot comfortably reach the halfway line with their kicks.

- Through on goals. Many people mention finishing but I would see the amount of these kind of chances as the main problem. In my opinion these type of scoring chances should not be as regular as they have been for years within the ME.

- General intelligence and the tendency to clear the ball. This is nerfing counter attacking play a lot in my opinion. At least at lower levels of football, defenders are way too prone on playing the ball long even under no pressure. A plenty of counter attacking opportunities are ruined by this. I think that the strikers' defensive positioning (too high) plays a role in there as there always tends to be a 'target' high up the pitch which could be explaining this behavior partially. I have personally very rarely seen either a long ball or a clearance from defense that has made me think "that was well done". 

But the clearing from your own area most of the times is really stupid behavior that even 5-year-old football players would not be doing. Most of the long balls and clearances that your centre backs will be playing make no sense at all and have zero possibility to be profitable for your team. Basically every, even amateur footballer, should be able to make decently intelligent decision on these, especially when no under real pressure.

- Counter attacking in general is still quite poor and you mainly see them after set pieces where the attacking side cannot have a player at the edge of the area as there seems to be a bug that the player lurking outside the area always shifts inside the penalty area. This in general leads to a situation where you can basically set your whole team attacking and press high up the pitch without much fear of being hit by a counter. I have seen people playing with very attacking style of plays without being hit by a break basically single time during a full season. 

Very good post, specifically tagging this for @Jack Joyce as I think he'll find some of this really useful

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, zyfon5 said:

generally can agree with all the things mentioned above. however i would like to elaborate more on the counter attacking from set piece. I'm not sure the bug affects everyone as I have scored a few goals from counter attacks from set pieces from the players that i have set at the edge of area and they seem to be working fine as instructed from what I have seen. However another problem that have existed since FM18 is opposition instructions in normal match seems to conflict with the player instructions in set pieces resulting in some weird situations where a player doesnt obey his set piece instructions and follow the opposition instructions for example to mark a specific player. Other problems that are created by the set piece marking system can be found in this excellent post: http://www.fmrensie.net/2020/04/21/fm20-conceding-from-the-set-pieces/

A possible solution that I can think of is to lock all the set piece instructions to be position specific and not under player instructions and create a vacuum period during a set piece play so that players will not be affected by normal positional marking settings during that time and focus on what they are being asked to do during a set piece.

This is actually what I meant. The reason why you can counter from defensive set pieces is because the attacking side's outside the area lurker always shifts into the penalty area, which allows the defending team's player to freely collect the ball outside the area and start a counter. I have tried even setting two players to take that role but instead of covering the area for clearances, they always seem to get inside the area and allow the opposition an easy chance for a counter. 

And thank you @themadsheep2001

Edited by Broken_Record

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21 minutes ago, Broken_Record said:

This is actually what I meant. The reason why you can counter from defensive set pieces is because the attacking side's outside the area lurker always shifts into the penalty area, which allows the defending team's player to freely collect the ball outside the area and start a counter. I have tried even setting two players to take that role but instead of covering the area for clearances, they always seem to get inside the area and allow the opposition an easy chance for a counter. 

And thank you @themadsheep2001

Oops sorry if I misunderstood the statement. I personally haven't seen any issues so far in my saves whether I am attacking or defending set pieces regarding to the player lurking outside the area. Regarding the issues during set pieces maybe SI need to revamp the marking system during a set piece? That's what I feel is the cause of these set piece issues anyway.

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2 hours ago, Broken_Record said:

This is actually what I meant. The reason why you can counter from defensive set pieces is because the attacking side's outside the area lurker always shifts into the penalty area, which allows the defending team's player to freely collect the ball outside the area and start a counter. I have tried even setting two players to take that role but instead of covering the area for clearances, they always seem to get inside the area and allow the opposition an easy chance for a counter. 

And thank you @themadsheep2001

And when you add in how the defenders don't seem to react to opposition runs, these rather simple counters from set pieces can often produce goals thus increasing the problem

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Earnie is God! said:

And when you add in how the defenders don't seem to react to opposition runs, these rather simple counters from set pieces can often produce goals thus increasing the problem

Indeed. This is down to intelligence again. I have seen five defenders facing 1-2 attacking players in these scenarios and as no one engaged, they have managed to create a chance from those.

Currently I am not using such roles as full or wingbacks on attacking duty or DLP on DM position because these roles simply seem to be way too powerful because of the defensive positioning of AMLRCs and STs. I tried Taye Taiwo as a FB(A) in the Finnish Cup Group stage and he ended up assisting 8 goals in only 5 games. 

And one thing to notice outside the ME is transfers. I really enjoy the fact that the AI now seems to be competing against you both in terms of players and staff but the transfer market in general seems quite messy. For example when starting with RoPS, I would be able to sign some really high reputation players: according to my staff there are some £10M players willing to move into my club and on free I would be able to sign some really famous former international players such as Maicon. And these players often are also demanding really low wages...

The situation with staff is even worse. Some of them are demanding 150€/week for a full-time coaching job and I just recently signed former Manchester City coach David Platt with 350€/week to Finnish Premier league. 

Surely these are quite a bit off?

Edited by Broken_Record

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Posted (edited)

Yes I understand for attack width with full backs necessary but it seems they are overpowered, they should be necessary but not crucial. Many teams in the world not only score from full backs going forward in open play.As mentioned creative players(AMC) very slow at turning with the ball Deep playmaker more important in DMC position or in midfield. I'm very curious how engine come to this? It was not perfect in FM'17 but how come it is not enjoyable to watch in 2020.

Edited by baris28

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2 hours ago, baris28 said:

 It was not perfect in FM'17 but how come it is not enjoyable to watch in 2020.

Well to be fair: at least to me FM 17 engine was way less enjoyable. The middle of the park was a real mess where a simple support duty striker could play 70-100 passes and 5-10 key passes per game. This took it really, really far from real football. 

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Attributes just go out the window when it comes to set pieces - Experimented by putting James Forrest and Karamoko Dembele in the box at Celtic - both around 160cm tall, 5 or less for jumping and heading - routinely see them outjumping and scoring all types of headers

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On 29/05/2020 at 08:13, Travis Bickle said:

I just lost a cup final because of two set pieces. Floated the ball in, header. Seems like a continuous issue in which I always lose big games because of set-pieces. 

Now I know I've complained enough about this, so in the interest of being more positive, is there ANYTHING I can do to stop this? I trained defending set pieces all week, I've actually downloaded various set-piece routines for defence. Yet the set-pieces keep flying in (usually free kick crosses for a header). 

It just kills the motivation for the game. I'm keeping record now and pretty much every major game I play that I lose is decided by an AI set-piece. 

Again, I know I've complained about this to death and received a (deserved) warning for a foul mouthed rant regarding set-pieces...now I'm trying to be more positive, is there anything I can do to stop it or am I doomed to having to live with this? 

Limit your fouls in wide areas so they don't get as many chances to take advantage of the overpowered wide free kicks. Tell your wide players to stay on their feet and funnel the play inside if you have strength there or outside if you can deal with crosses. Crosses from open play seem much less effective.

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Posted (edited)

Anecdotally, most crosses are scored when a player is pressured out wide in a deep(ish) position, they check inside and swing a ball in with their weaker foot. Maybe it's an animation thing but the crosses don't look right because the player would be off balance and yet they put really dangerous crosses in

Edited by Fosse

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On 01/06/2020 at 16:01, KingCanary said:

Given the game another shot and I've got to join the ranks of people saying 'great apart from the match engine.'

Scouting works well, dynamics is helpful, transfers seem realistic but....

I'm so frustrated watching players in the match engine make decisions that just don't make the remotest sense.

I'm playing a formation with wing backs- those guys find acres of space but rather than either drive into the box or play a cross they wait until their closed down before playing it to a team mate in a worse position who then puts in a cross. Nice, steady build up in the middle of the park is often ruined by my player inexplicably turning and knocking it 40 yards back to the keeper. Ball playing central defenders seem to have no sense of where pressure is coming from, non ball playing defenders seem to want to hoof it away even if under no pressure.

Just a frutrating experience all round.

So have stuck it out a bit and feel like I'm getting the hang of the match engine more. 

Positives

  • Patient, passing, build up play is possible! Players are happy to recycle the ball and go backwards if nothing is on
  • I generally feel players are following my instructions but not being stupid about it
  • A little thing, but goalkeeper errors look much more realistic than in 18. I had a goal recently where my keeper came for a cross and missed it, leaving a tap in but it was realistic he would have tried. On 18 keepers used to come charging out for crosses they had zero hope of getting to, often waiting until the ball was almost with the opponent before making their move. 
  • My striker took it past the keeper to score! I like this!

 

Negatives

  • Throw ins- my players often have a complete brain fart when it comes to throw ins, either throwing the straight to an opponent or the receiving player moves just as the throw in is taken, meaning it goes nowhere near him.
  • It seems a bit too easy for players to dribble the ball 50/60 yards on counter attacks. I see this probably 2 or 3 times a game and once even saw 6' 7" Brighton central defender Dan Burn carry it from his box to mine. Seems unrealistic.
  • Corner takers making zero effort to get back onside- often if a corner is cleared to the edge of the box the player who collects will look to recycle it back out wide to the corner taker who is almost always offside despite having ample chance to get himself onside. 
  • The biggest one- one on one's are completely nerfed as far as I can see- to the extent I'm not generally excited to see my striker break through as I'm almost certain he's going to miss.

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Sometimes I think I'm playing a different game than a lot here.

bUU8VPl.png

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8 minutes ago, XaW said:

Sometimes I think I'm playing a different game than a lot here.

AqFc07b.png

You're not. I too see a fair amount of goals from inside the box, but let's not pretend 30-yard screamers aren't flying in with worrying regularity. No high defensive line helps, no Ball Winning Midfielder helps, no defensively superior midfielders help, sometimes you simply get a feeling the game calculated you deserve to concede a goal and you will do so regardless. And that's where so much frustration comes from, it's hard to read the match engine and identify issues if majority of the goals you concede feel like utter flukes.

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2 minutes ago, Zemahh said:

AqFc07b.png

You're not. I too see a fair amount of goals from inside the box, but let's not pretend 30-yard screamers aren't flying in with worrying regularity. No high defensive line helps, no Ball Winning Midfielder helps, no defensively superior midfielders help, sometimes you simply get a feeling the game calculated you deserve to concede a goal and you will do so regardless. And that's where so much frustration comes from, it's hard to read the match engine and identify issues if majority of the goals you concede feel like utter flukes.

No honestly, I don't see many long shots at all.

The one I showed you was my last match. Here are the last 5 matches before that one (I excluded the final I won, because the only goal was an own goal):

zQN9xqb.png

The 3-2 before the final was the one I posted above.

Here I lost 3-1

6KjVXQN.png

A 1-1 draw:

sIgXxRg.png

3-1 win (one own goal), and it had a long shot for the opponent.

U1XSVQR.png

a 3-0 win:

0VqNqYs.png

And a 0-1 loss:

6wvrrRN.png

Only 1 long shot goal for the last 6 games. And I really don't experience it much either for or against.

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when can the game engine/SI understands what a false nine or deep lying forward really does?

 

Every game your lone striker will just stand between two center backs, in real life Benzema's or Firmino's role can never being replicated in game, what's the point of the false nine role?

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48 minutes ago, robinthebest said:

Every game your lone striker will just stand between two center backs, in real life Benzema's or Firmino's role can never being replicated in game, what's the point of the false nine role?

I just used a false nine role in a match against the 2nd bottom team (I'm top) so they were quite defensive. They used a 442, but with 2 DMs. I regularly saw my F9 drop deeper and a lot of the time either in between the DMs or even deeper than them so he could receive the ball. Now I wouldn't pretend that there isn't problems with the movement, because there is and it's been acknowledged. There doesn't seem to be enough movement and run 'recycling' happening (to drop back to either receive or pull defenders... or make a run again at another time) but I will say it is possible to get movement out of the false nine. The role drops even deeper than a DLF. I would suggest that if you have regular issues with the role, it's worth asking for advice rather than have digs. That way, a you'll most likely get at least some form of the movement you want and you'd be less frustrated.

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19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I just used a false nine role in a match against the 2nd bottom team (I'm top) so they were quite defensive. They used a 442, but with 2 DMs. I regularly saw my F9 drop deeper and a lot of the time either in between the DMs or even deeper than them so he could receive the ball. Now I wouldn't pretend that there isn't problems with the movement, because there is and it's been acknowledged. There doesn't seem to be enough movement and run 'recycling' happening (to drop back to either receive or pull defenders... or make a run again at another time) but I will say it is possible to get movement out of the false nine. The role drops even deeper than a DLF. I would suggest that if you have regular issues with the role, it's worth asking for advice rather than have digs. That way, a you'll most likely get at least some form of the movement you want and you'd be less frustrated.

that's not having digs, maybe you can try to to watch some real football games, notice the average position of the false 9 like Firmino or DLF like Benzema, and compared to the average position of these 2 roles in game,

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