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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, yandex said:

It's the set pieces man.. The set pieces.

Why couldn't their effectiveness/occurrence just be toned down a little bit? Just a tad. It's my only real deal-breaking gripe. The game is so good, but seeing 3 identical set piece goals some games, plus countless identical chances from set pieces, ruins it.

 

Because then every game would end 0-0. ;)

3 hours ago, Kingstontom88 said:

I respect Neil's post, but this section worries me and leads me to believe this game may continue going down the right path but with the wrong footwear. The features developed are great, but the ME - and this thread is a big indicator - has been a huge let down this year despite numerous tweaks and it's a massive part of the game. I hope it gets a lot of attention in advance of FM21 - but if playing figures are high, the question is whether SI interpret anything is actually 'wrong' with it, and will instead focus on the nice add-ons outside of the ME to keep justifying the release of a new game every year.

We will see, I guess.

Yes, that's the concern. We're 8 months out from FM21 and judging by the post Neil made (finally some clarification either way :thup:) we're told that the development team on the game believe that the ME is in a state they believe to be acceptable. It's pretty much been universally panned wherever you look. I absolutely do not say that as a mark of disrespect fwiw, just that is what I'm seeing and reading on here, on social media and on YT from most of the content creators. 

If SI are basing that off of the sales numbers and players playing the game right now than, as you say, it does plant that seed of doubt in your mind for the next FM in terms of hoping the ME will be in a much better state than it is now. 

As I said recently, we don't need any new features at this point, not for a while yet, what we need is 'refine' not 'new' 

The rest of the game aside from the ME, oh and the imo, morale system being OP is fantastic. It's been badly let down by the ME from an attacking point of view. Lack of central play, lack of striker movement on the whole in all directions which imo is where a big issue comes into play and too many set piece goals. I also think the ME director needs a bit of fine tuning as it doesn't seem to be as good as previous FMs in what it shows you. 

I believe that SI can and will rectify this issue that a lot of the community has but it's going to take time. I posted before that the new defensive options that were added were a necessary step forward but SI only has a limited amount of resources, they aren't a huge company like Rockstar are and they simply don't have the funds or manpower to get both parts of the game well balanced by adding in any potential new attacking options to match the defensive ones. I imagine for FM21 and beyond those changes to the attacking side of the game will arrive and we'll have a balanced ME. 

I think SI has earned a level of trust from long time players that shouldn't be forgotten about in two years. 

2 hours ago, davehanson said:

They are critic reviews. Do some looking at the user reviews on Metacritic, the people that actually spend money to buy and play the game, rather than a critic who speed plays through 1 match and just see's shiny new things, and you will see this is the worse reviewd FM on there. Fact.

Steam reviews are massively skewed (wonder why) as they only allow reviews and scores to count from people who have bought directly through steam. I can, and have, reviews the game on there but it doesn't count as I didn't buy it through steam.

I don't put any weight behind critic reviews for FM. Jim from the Guardian or Brian from The Express aren't long time FM players. They likely don't know **** about the game, they've just been sent a review code by SI to get a bit of promotion etc. 

I read user reviews for this series, as well as playing the game myself of course. The long time FM players know what's what. They know a good FM from a bad FM and that's where SI should be putting more stock into, not the critic reviewers. 

2 hours ago, Mcfc1894 said:

Making a New ME all together would be the best Idea for FM 21 

I read on here from a prominent member of the forums that a new ME was in development. This was maybe 2.5/3 years ago now, maybe this year?

2 hours ago, FreezingTable said:

No more ME updates for FM20? It cant be true. In November they release a game that is far for done and has a lot of bugs which makes the game almost unplayable for several months. 
 

Now the game is ok, but it has a lot of small bugs here and there that really should be fixed. If they stop rolling out new ME updates the developers can’t care about the costumer/consumer of their product
 

Also, I don’t see the point of releasing a new game every year. Why don’t make one game that has a familiar ME and which constantly can be improved? The last 2-3 years the game haven’t been really playable until the winter-update has been rolled out. That’s not good enough SI.

Oh it's true. It's damn true. ;) 

They have to release a new FM every fall. Their bosses at SEGA demand it. It's not SI that say they are going to release a new game every year. 

2 hours ago, KUBI said:

FM17 got a lot of bad reviews because there was no Chinese language version available after release.

Yep this. Got review bombed by the Chinese. 

1 hour ago, Icy said:

And what they basically said a year ago regarding FM19, that had between other things, exactly the same issues regarding lack of central play and strikers movement.

I had hope for these to be fixed for FM20 and accepted to feel abandoned for FM19, but twice in a row... is too much even for us veterans since CM Italy.

From Neil's message I get either prepotency/complacency because they sell more and the press (who plays the game for 30 minutes) gives them props every year regardless what the core fans say or that they are blinded by that press and record sales and are fooling themselves thinking it is the best engine ever.

Both things are very bad for us, at the end that is why us old generation of players are more and more dissapointed with the gaming industry in general, once lead by passionate developers and now just by their companies yearly results (and the shareholders and publishers pressure), even if the games are dumber and dumber and mainly towards the youtube/twich and online generation.

SI shouldn't forget that the great game they have has been and always will be driven by the hardcore players critics here, and not by the pats in the back from the press and sales numbers, that will dissapear if they stop creating a great game with the hardcore gamers feedback.

Yeah I'm old and probably my gaming days are getting over and I shouldn't be listened anymore.

I don't think SI are complacent at all. This has been the most updated FM imo. They are always adding new features to the game. Look at the impact the new defensive options have had on the game. That was a huge change to the ME. That's where the issues with the ME have come from. It's going to take them time to balance it out. After two versions, let's hope it's FM21 that nails it. I won't be giving up on the series but I'm not sure I'll be pre-ordering FM21 at release whereas in years gone by it was a no brainer. 

Edited by craigcwwe

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3 hours ago, Nick_CB said:

Excuse me, but a game summarized in set pieces cannot be considered the closest to reality. I made a topic showing a match where my team scored 5x on set pieces and someone from SI said that the problem was being solved but it didn't happen

I think the point Neil is making is that there aren't many alternatives therefore FM20 remains the number one realistic management game and to an extent it is. The long-term players such as myself, and I'd imagine yourself, can see it doesn't meet the grade as previous editions did, and having played the game year after year we're able to critique the game more than someone who has only just bought the game for the first time ever or someone who doesn't extensively commit hundreds of hours of gameplay as we do. 

I can completely understand why there aren't any further improvements to the ME due to the level of code that is needed to change the game from what it is now, to what we'd like it to be. My biggest gripe is it should never have been released in this condition and I'm sure the devs too will agree with me to an extent, but simply can't say so for fear of publicly admitting their game has major flaws. As passionate as the devs are about creating the most realistic and enjoyable game as possible, they are also a business. As another poster mentioned FM20 is still in the Steam top 10. The needs of the many will outweigh the needs of the few. And right now we are the few. 

Going forward I really do hope the ME is the biggest priority for future editions. I like many really couldn't care less about interface changes or new features which end up being an annoyance or a chore. The interface for years has already been incredible and doesn't need that much alteration. The ME is what makes people enjoy the game. Seeing your team put together a 20 pass goal, in a quick tempo, seeing your wingers blitz their marker, the midfielders using their vision to pick out a Pirlo-like pass, and to see your striker make a clever run followed by a world class finish is the epitome of what makes this game the best game there is on the market. Sadly if you want that enjoyment you need to break out an older edition of the game. 

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I am much more pleased with FM 20 than I was with FM 19. I was very critical with last year's ME but I am pleased with what they achieved this year. Of course it's not perfect , but then neither is real life football. I think many of you are accustomed to watching or supporting top teams who play the best football, but if you took the time to watch a football game from lesser leagues like Poland, Serbia, Romania or some other league other than the big 5 ( England, Spain, Italy , France and Germany ) you will see there is not that much central play involved, or that goals from set pieces are very common.

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19 minutes ago, andu1 said:

I am much more pleased with FM 20 than I was with FM 19. I was very critical with last year's ME but I am pleased with what they achieved this year. Of course it's not perfect , but then neither is real life football. I think many of you are accustomed to watching or supporting top teams who play the best football, but if you took the time to watch a football game from lesser leagues like Poland, Serbia, Romania or some other league other than the big 5 ( England, Spain, Italy , France and Germany ) you will see there is not that much central play involved, or that goals from set pieces are very common.

The problem is that in FM 20 even top teams look like they're from Poland or Romania ;)

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1 hour ago, szp said:

The problem is that in FM 20 even top teams look like they're from Poland or Romania ;)

Think it's more that the football looks like it's from the 1990s. If the aim was to produce an engine that faithfully replicates Martin O'Neil football, they've done an outstanding job; if it was to simulate anything approaching modern, technical football, it's a disaster. 

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23 hours ago, drizzlynewt said:

Is this a problem you're encountering when they're being challenged for the headers or is it when they have a free header? I remember last season Sadio Mane scored a lot of headers; He was able to evade markers and crosses came in at the right height for him to be able to get onto the end of them. Being short doesn't make you bad at heading the ball, it just means you're  less likely to win an aerial challenge if you're up against someone bigger.

Lucas Moura for Spurs scored a few this season not bad for somebody at 1.73 metres tall.

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1 saat önce, GunmaN1905 said:

With this latest version, deep indirect free-kicks from central position are a bigger goalscoring threat than shots from inside the box from open play.

Unfortunately it is this. I've mentioned this in this feedback thread -didn't log about bug report- but still this should be about  internal testing..

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7 hours ago, duff33 said:

Is the striker thing any better if you have two men up front? I've been using formations with one centre forward, and have noticed the poor performance since the recent update, but wondered if it was the same with two up front (if anyone had tried it)?

In my humble opinion yes.

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7 hours ago, yandex said:

It's the set pieces man.. The set pieces.

Why couldn't their effectiveness/occurrence just be toned down a little bit? Just a tad. It's my only real deal-breaking gripe. The game is so good, but seeing 3 identical set piece goals some games, plus countless identical chances from set pieces, ruins it.

 

How many routines do you have set up ?

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Posted (edited)
44 minuti fa, MatthewS17 ha scritto:

For those of you laying complaints, there really is no longer a point to it. SI made it clear that they're happy with their game(funny one) so they're leaving it the way it is. 

Basically, bug reports, this entire feedback is basically just to make it look like they're interested in what you have to say when they actually are barely concerned enough to fix anything. 

Like they said with the disabled transfer windows, "only 2-3% use it" so there's no need for an immediate fix, we're all a small part of the overall purchasers of FM, so, they don't particularly care what you have to say. There can be denial, but actions will always speak louder than words. And SI has taken its more devout customers for fools. 

i think that is quite harsh tbh. I've been critical of the ME for quite some time and haven't bought the game in 4 years as I see no point till the ME gets sorted out. That being said, the ME made great strides forward in last 4 years by introducing some fundamental defensive concepts. Things that were ridiculed by big part of the forums in times of FM16.  As I understand it, the ME is a huge beast that is difficult to mantain, let alone improve. So it takes very long time to introduce, reevaluate and iron out (football) concepts that (some) weren't even present when the first ME was made.  To make it short, they do listen, they do work on the ME but it is a nightmare to keep it together. I am sure it (ME) will continue to improve in offensive phase in next few years. What we don't realize is just how slow the progress is and always think the next year will solve everything. But that will never happen.

Is that enough? I think it is as long as (other) people keep buying the game :D 

 

41 minuti fa, Lord Rowell ha scritto:

I do not write this out of vindictiveness. I've no doubt SI staff work damned hard and care about the game, but I fear something has gone badly wrong at the upper hierarchies re. the direction staff have been given.

Indeed they lack communication, they could say what they plan for next year (and years after). after all, this forum is a big minority and the game will sell regardless of what they share with us here. so, sure, they could and should make it more clear. What is especially annoying is the mantra "this is the best game we ever did". Well, technically it is, but I could make a crap manager game and call it the second best football manager game and, technically, that would also be true :D 

Edited by MBarbaric

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, ajw10 said:

From Neil's post I can see that posting bugs in the forums is a complete waste of time as they probably only affect 2-3% of people. It's a real shame that SI publicly consider this game acceptable enough to be considered "finished"

It's not even just the ME either - there's so many UI problems which just hint at a lack of care from SI's part.

In relation to your second line. As frustrated as I am, even now I don't think its down to not caring, I can't go there. To me, the issues around the UI seem largely down to Systems, QC and Resource. I have to and do believe they care.

 

EDIT: Just read your post again and wanted to acknowledge that a "lack of care" and not caring could be two different things, so apologies if I misrepresented what you were saying.

Edited by janrzm

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4 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Indeed they lack communication, they could say what they plan for next year (and years after). after all, this forum is a big minority and the game will sell regardless of what they share with us here. so, sure, they could and should make it more clear. What is especially annoying is the mantra "this is the best game we ever did". Well, technically it is, but I could make a crap manager game and call it the second best football manager game and, technically, that would also be true :D 

technically you could make a crap football game and call it the best game you ever did as well lol

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

Indeed they lack communication, they could say what they plan for next year (and years after). after all, this forum is a big minority and the game will sell regardless of what they share with us here. so, sure, they could and should make it more clear. What is especially annoying is the mantra "this is the best game we ever did". Well, technically it is, but I could make a crap manager game and call it the second best football manager game and, technically, that would also be true :D 

I recall a storm of criticism when I think it was FM14 was released, and IIRC it was the version where 'sliders" were removed. We just had to use PI's and Ti's for the first time. Whichever one it was, I remember Paul Collyer saying that the team felt this was the best ME they'd done.

Whether that was FM13 or FM14, they were arguably right.

I doubt many would argue FM19 or FM20 is the best. The post from SI staff didn't claim that either, I think they used the word "acceptable".

But I agree with your tone. There's a lack of humilty, and its actually a very small number of people. Most of the other relevant people aren't saying much which is interesting. In very recent times gone by, very respected moderators in significant numbers have defended the ME and rightly so. This is absent now.

 

Edited by Lord Rowell

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It was pretty clear from all the talk of rubiks cubes and fine balancing act that the current ME had become an uncontrollable beast and nobody knew how to deal with it or fix it. The writing was on the wall for this game when there was no mention of an improved ME at all on the initial announcements and all we got was some article talking about how striker movement would apparently be improved.

Bought every single iteration on release but that won't be happening now, I'm aware that will make 0 difference, but it seems like the same as with all great managers, SI have taken this as far as they can, time for someone new to step up and shake things up

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Posted (edited)

I won't say i'm not disappointed but i'm certainly not surprised given most of issues are following from FM 19.  i just want to ask SI devs only one thing. Is ME became too much of hard task to manage given how the ME became stale for the last 2 versions. Do you believe for 2021 in terms of changing things in ME side in particular of Attack movement/ Central forward passing / Defenders passing ball between themselves with out no pressure on lower mentalities can be fixed completely or atleast improved considerably than previous 2 versions(FM 19 and 20). 

This forum might be minority but many of my fellow users put many hours of their time to log these bugs becuase of their passion and pursuit of the betterment for the game they love so much and possibly for most of them this is the only game they play. The one thing that worries me is that " what if these guys who put hours to spot the bugs and upload them left or dwindle" . Given the current situation i believe it will hurt the game quality on the long run rather than the short run if the above scenario happens.

Edited by ferrarinseb

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So... No ME patching. I'm trying hard not to feel slapped in the face, but clearly i'm not completely successful at that. I saw it coming though, like most of the people. I think, what hurts the most is Neil's commentary. I recon it takes quite some courage to come forward like that. But the main argument he used: people bought it, so it's not that bad, is a very poor one. In logic it's called "the popularity bias". I teach my students not to use these kind of easy fallacy. Moreover, i've been saying that i will buy FM 21 because i love this game that uch, and, overall trust SI to fix things and make me have fun. But let's follow Neil's view: If people buy it, then it's not bad. Maybe it's time I use this idea to make my disappointment a tad more audible... But it's hard to let go a game i loved that much for such a long time. FM is the only game installed on my computer for more than 5 years now.

Anyhow, Neil's statement feels more like "un aveu de faiblesse" (i have no idea how to translate that) to me.

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4 minutes ago, Mr Tonio said:

Anyhow, Neil's statement feels more like "un aveu de faiblesse" (i have no idea how to translate that) to me.

It felt more like a folie a deux to me.

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For England is Premiere League renamed to Premiere Division after the last update ?

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I am 10+ years into my save and I have built one the best teams on the game, however nothing is making me want to load the game up again. The majority of goals are from set pieces, with the rest being long shots scored just after set pieces. 

The cycle at the moment is loading the game up becuase I'm wanting to play, getting to the first game and quitting straight after.

For the first time since CM days I will be buying the demo before paying for FM21, and that is saying something for its my favourite game since I can remember.

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Posted (edited)

Played Liverpool as Burnley. I'm 12th in the league.

I lose 4-0. Fine, nothing wrong with that.

2 goals were Naby Keita headers from deep set pieces.

1 goal from Firmino, volley from back post after set piece on the side of the edge of the box.

1 goal from Salah, a header on the back post from a cross.

 

Also lost 3-0 to Man Utd earlier in the season from 3 set pieces.

1-0 at Etihad after, you guessed it, a set piece header.

Edited by yandex

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Im very sorry for you guys but I really think this ME is good. it's not perfect but it's never gonna be. IMO the game is great. I'm not seeing so many goals from set pieces. I see a fair amount of central attacking plays in my 4-3-3. My striker was underperforming as an advanced forward, going into channels, crowding some areas of the pitch, leaving the box empty but I switched him to a poacher and he's now scoring a lot and behaving like a real n9. 

I think SI did a wonderful job this year on the ME but the frustration of the players comes from the names/description of the mechanics. As the ME becomes more and more complex, the description of the mentality, Tis, Pi's, roles and duties and tactical presets remain the same. Managing to have a strong tactic, to make your team doing what you want is now far more complex than 2yrs ago. Achieving is now rewarding because it's harder. The mistake of SI is the lack of precise information on what an instruction is really doing, and with what it interacts. And the tactical presets, which make people think playing like Liverpool is just a matter of 2 to 3 mouse clicks. 

I'm enjoying a lot this FM edition and I thank SI for the good job they've done, the support and release of patches during half the lifespan of the edition and the public beta which is a really good thing.

 

Just a suggestion : do less to do more. Let me explain: don't waste your time and resources bringing some new features every year. You really need to polish some existing features, going much more deeper in the mechanics (financial evolution, sponsorship, players behavior outside the pitch, regens algorithm, African regens, physical recovery, season fatigue, Dynamics, external events, etc...)  to make the more dynamic and unpredictable.

But again thank you for your work, you're doing a lot more and a lot better than 90% of the game editors right now

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And..... Deletes FM20. 

8 hours ago, Welshace said:

Can I ask Neil, or anyone who feels they have the authority to answer, where do we go from here? do you think we should stop playing the game if we aren't happy with the engine in its current form? Is your post suggesting we don't buy the next either, because, as you mentioned, the team are happy with how it's working and progressing? 

I guess i'm basically asking, is this the devs way of suggesting maybe that everyone who isn't happy with the ME should probably just go away as the team doesn't recognise their concerns as valid?

I've deleted FM20. I played one and a quarter seasons on this ME and I'd rather pour bleach into my eyeballs than play anymore, it's that painfully dull to watch and manage in. 

First game in the entire series to not get over 1,000 hours. The first game in the series where I won't have played it consistently throughout the 11-12 months the game is out for. 

And after Neil's comments FM21 will be the first in the series I haven't pre-ordered/bought on the first day of release, because the ME is in such a genuinely poor state that if they are genuinely happy with it I have no optimism they will or even can fix it for FM21.

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8 hours ago, Welshace said:

Can I ask Neil, or anyone who feels they have the authority to answer, where do we go from here? do you think we should stop playing the game if we aren't happy with the engine in its current form? Is your post suggesting we don't buy the next either, because, as you mentioned, the team are happy with how it's working and progressing? 

I guess i'm basically asking, is this the devs way of suggesting maybe that everyone who isn't happy with the ME should probably just go away as the team doesn't recognise their concerns as valid?

No, the way I read it is the dev's way of thanking people for their feedback to help improve the game in the longer term. That's far from invalid and they want more of the constructive feedback. Stuff is prioritised but that doesn't mean customers and fans are wrong.

But if you have to spend time asking the question "should I play or buy if I don't like it", the answer is never yes. 

They don't control their own customers. You are free to go do whatever you want. 

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Posted (edited)

I think we’re all guilty of over inflated egos here.

We ARE a tiny group of very focal fans. Of course our views matter but not as much as SI’s themselves. 

Very interested to read Neil’s comments.

Basically, keep making suggestions, pointing out faults or things that can be improved and if we like them and / or can implement them then we will.

Pretty standard really, as it’s always been.

For all those still having issues with the ME I posted a tactic, on page 22 I think, that I’ve found to be quite successful in mitigating almost all of the ‘problems’ some have faced.

Of course, it’s just one tactic. I have had similar success with other tactical philosophies (admittedly not quite as successfully as this one) But hopefully it’s a little snippet as to why SI don’t feel the need to change anything. Yet. This ME, be it far from perfect, is perfectly acceptable. If they could turn it all around right now, don’t you think they would?

Attacking movement needs looking at, as does player passing decisions in the final 3rd. My guess is that will be the ‘new feature’ for FM21.

As I’ve said many times there is a road map for SI. A journey. They’ve sorted out defence. Now they’ll move on to attack. They’ve made the rest of the game superb. Now they’ll focus more on the ME.

And as I’ve been saying over and over again we need some PATIENCE for this.

As most here seem to be long term players I would have thought most of us would have understood this by now.

Edited by Tyburn

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Whilst i'm broadly satisfied with this version of the game, i do find it odd that set pieces could not be slightly toned down with this compensated for with a slightly better conversion rate of chances from open play.

I appreciate even this seemingly straight forward change is difficult to implement with possible knock on effects. Had this been achieved i think we'd be in a pretty good place.

Fingers crossed for FM21. 

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Usually I am optimistic, I've always been succesful playing FM since CM02/03, overachieve, win titles, creating tactics that produce some good football, etc. But despite my good results, the ME can really take the joy out of the game. 

The things that I list below are the most frustrating parts of the ME and are not in an acceptable state IMO. If some of the events below would happen now and then, that would be perfectly okay, unexpected things happen IRL, but the frequency of these events occuring are highly unrealistic in the ME:

  • Too many scorchers from distance scored by players with poor shooting ability.
  • Too many goals from set pieces, especially indirect free kicks, compared to amount of goals scored from open play
  • Too many easy chances missed inside the box by players with good finishing, shooting and mental abilites. If these chances were converted more often, then the amount of goals from set pieces were not such a huge problem. I don't know if this is because the goalkeepers are too good, or the players are too bad at shooting inside the box. I rewatched some goals my team scored in previous FMs, and it is clear that what was a good scoring opportunity in previous FMs (and IRL), now it is much less likely beeing scored.
  • As a consequence of the above mentioned problems, creating quality chances are not rewarded enough. I am not talking about quantity. It's the quality!
  • Playing a high tempo game, coupled with extremley urgent pressing (aka Gegenpress) for 90 minutes would be impossible IRL, when a team tries to play like that, they are out of breath around the 60-70th minutes (mentally and physically). But in FM even poor teams are capable of playing like that without greater consequences. Trying to play like this for 90 minutes is not punished enough, it should have a greater impact on condition, stamina, speed.
  • When a team play with a more defensive mentality, their defenders, even with poor passing and mental skills, are too resistent to pressing, they keep their composure and outpass the pressing too easily. This could be improved not only by the ME, but adjusting how defensive AI managers choose to play, they could be coded to play more direct in these situations. Because if a defensive Barca can outpass the pressing and keep possession, that it perfectly fine. But when teams, managers, not famous for their possession style do this, that is unrealistic.
  • Of course there are other areas of the ME that can be improved, but the ones mentioned above are the ones that really ruins the joy for me.


About the central play, TBH I don't consider it to be in a frustrating state - of course it could be improved, but here is my take on it:
When I play against a defensive side and see that there are no space centrally in front of and behind the defence (eg. they play with 2 DMs), I think it is okay that central play lacks, and AMC struggles in these situations. So I rather try to break them down through the wings. Altough I understand it can be frustrating if you are a top team and 80-90% of your oppositions set up like this.
But when there is space in front of or behind the defence, and I place players in these spaces, then there is central play and I see through balls.

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The last few pages have probably summed up with communication is so difficult. Not matter what is said, Neil gets pulled apart, or his words get twisted to suit the agenda of those replying, or in some cases he gets deliberately misrepresented or abused, and a lot of it is coming from the same people who want more communication. Its a two way street, if this is going to be the reaction, why would they attempt more communication? If you're going to treat every post with cynicism to the point where they can't actually say what they're trying to say, then you can't have that communication. 

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Without going into detail too much, I personally think this is the best match engine we've ever had. It's more challenging than past versions and the flaws that do exist make me, as always, treat FM like its own universe.

It might just be me, but on past FMs I could almost always win the league by a long way year after year. In FM20 it's more challenging and even with a great squad I've had many seasons that were very close shaves. Three seasons ago I actually won the league on more goals scored than Arsenal.

I think there are a bigger variety of goals scored now after the latest update. I'm really liking it, more than I thought I would even.

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Having played the series for over 20 years, believe me, this title has evolved incredibly.

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Just now, Tyburn said:

Having played the series for over 20 years, believe me, this title has evolved incredibly.

It has. There is only one thing I can think of that I would want back from versions 20 years ago.

"Unhappy with his manager"

When a player eventually had this in his profile, there was absolutely nothing you could do to keep him. He was going, whether you wanted to or not. I loved that. It made it a challenge, and there were genuinely heart-breaking moments when your star player eventually got fed up with your bs, warranted or not. Nowadays it's far too easy to run the players as you see fit. No matter what contract claims the players have, eventually they will forget about it and come crawling back if you compensate in other areas. I don't know if it's more realistic the way it is now, but it was more challenging back then, and any game out there needs to seriously challenge the player for the game to have any sort of long life span.

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1 minute ago, Norfair said:

It has. There is only one thing I can think of that I would want back from versions 20 years ago.

"Unhappy with his manager"

When a player eventually had this in his profile, there was absolutely nothing you could do to keep him. He was going, whether you wanted to or not. I loved that. It made it a challenge, and there were genuinely heart-breaking moments when your star player eventually got fed up with your bs, warranted or not. Nowadays it's far too easy to run the players as you see fit. No matter what contract claims the players have, eventually they will forget about it and come crawling back if you compensate in other areas. I don't know if it's more realistic the way it is now, but it was more challenging back then, and any game out there needs to seriously challenge the player for the game to have any sort of long life span.

Exactly. For me the ME has been the biggest challenge this year. It’s been great trying to get it to look good, and even though I’m now happy with it I reckon I could still squeeze more out of it :) 

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vor 15 Minuten schrieb Tyburn:

Having played the series for over 20 years, believe me, this title has evolved incredibly.

Sometimes we need to remember how it was to play older versions. I played all of them and if I see which parts are added in the past years and which are improved it is massive. Especially the AI is so must better now. The improvements to the tactical part might be the core of the current problems with the ME. It seems that if you tweak just a small part there is a chain reaction and you need to invest more time to test the results than actually tweak parts of it. Therefore I can understand that now the focus is on FM21, as there is now time to analyse and work on vital parts of the ME which can't be turned that easy into another update.

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As much as the ME bugs me I find the morale has too much sway on games.

I've been overachieving in Bundesliga 2, sitting just over halfway, but come the transfer window and a couple of my players (6/7th choice CMs) moan about playing time.  I can't even give them away on free transfers or loan for no wages so they, and then the squad, get arsey.  Morale drops, 3 defeats in a row prompts my ass man to suggest a team meeting.  That goes ok but then we lose again (3 headers from free kicks) and the old "manager refuses to change his tactics" line comes up.  After another defeat against a very ordinary side I get another of the DXI(?) crashes that seem to be creeping in, despite my drivers being all up to date.

Happy Days.

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18 minutes ago, KUBI said:

Sometimes we need to remember how it was to play older versions.

You mean fun, unlike this latest ME! :p

On a more serious note the biggest problem with FM 20 is the fact that it actually isn't that much different from say FM18 or FM17 and the MEs in those games are much better IMO. 

The only really big new feature that isn't basically a repackaged feature given its own new screen or tweak from recent prior games are the new "improvements" to the tactical console, and as you say yourself they've clearly had a knock on effect within the ME that caused that part of the game in the eyes of many to regress. 

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@kiwityke1983

I would say that club visions is a massive improvement for long term saves.

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7 minutes ago, KUBI said:

@kiwityke1983

I would say that club visions is a massive improvement for long term saves.

SIs vision of club vision would be, but in its current state the club vision implementation is a liability for long-term saves. We've all read threads where people were sacked for outrageous reasons that linked to a broken club vision. I've had iffy situations with it as well that I felt would just never happen irl. I'm loving FM20 but that is one area of the game I'm unhappy with. Hope it's polished for the next iteration.

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2 minutes ago, KUBI said:

@kiwityke1983

I would say that club visions is a massive improvement for long term saves.

I respectfully disagree for the following reason. 

In my 2 careers where I got past 10 seasons I discovered a number of things. 

1 - The board would just change its club philosophy to whatever I was playing anyway. So even if it said play pressing football and I didn't bother it would just change after a season to whatever style I actually was playing. 

2 - After awhile almost all the clubs that were offering me jobs (mid to bottom tier sides of the top flights of leagues) had almost uniform club goals. 

3 - Its yet more railroading. Yet more of the sandbox already crafted. The older games allowed me to build my own club philosophies via interaction with the board if I chose to do so. 

4 - The above things just made it like a lot of the new features of recent years kind of pointless beyond the age old where do they want me to finish in the league/cups. 

5 - It's kind of buggy. I came across quite a few bugs within it. For example contradictory statements or them being happy when you'd clearly not done something and extremely upset over the things you actually had achieved. 

I kind of miss the youth development screen. I dunno why seeing as it's 90% info we always had in the game. I defo promoted more youngsters in FM20 than I probably ever have. Beyond that I haven't missed a thing from FM20 on FM18. 

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vor 1 Minute schrieb Norfair:

SIs vision of club vision would be, but in its current state the club vision implementation is a liability for long-term saves. We've all read threads where people were sacked for outrageous reasons that linked to a broken club vision. I've had iffy situations with it as well that I felt would just never happen irl. I'm loving FM20 but that is one area of the game I'm unhappy with. Hope it's polished for the next iteration.

Of course it could be improved, but personally I like it that a manager could be sacked that way, as it happens in real football all the time. "We share a vision", a month later you are gone.

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10 minutes ago, KUBI said:

@kiwityke1983

I would say that club visions is a massive improvement for long term saves.

A pity it took so long for it to work in Touch, but at least I’ll get 6 months of this massive improvement before the next game comes out. 

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Please find post above, team selection by AI Managers is pretty bad, or just bring back to possibility for us to set the starting lineups for youth teams. Thanks.

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53 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Having played the series for over 20 years, believe me, this title has evolved incredibly.

As a player with almost 25 years of CM/FM experience I can tell that this statement is paradoxically true and false at the same time.

Obviously, progress in many aerias is evident, but there are also many things which "evolve backwards"(so to speak). Like press conferences, team talks, in-game social media(LOL), and all that clickfesty, repetetive nonsense, which doesent matter much(or at all), yet takes time even when delegated to your assistant(you still have to click through all those messages and screens). This actually killed my passion for this series. Yes, good match engine would be a lot of fun, but I just cant stand playing one season fo 2 weeks to 1 month, when in the past I could do than i two days(with the same amount of gameplay time per day). Thats just so bad. Perhaps SI shouldve invested their time in things that matter(training, tactics, team building, ME) way earlier.

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@tts0

Did you try FM Touch, because this version offers exactly what you want?

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Posted (edited)

I played every version from CM2 up to FM17 but by the end of that versions cycle I was burnt out by the game and had really lost interest in the amount of detail and time it took to play.

I migrated over to just playing the Mobile but that is very much a marmite version that you either love and “get” or you don’t. Personally I enjoy it as I have found other ways to play the game that I enjoy and suit that game but I would never recommend it as an alternative to the PC version as it lacks the depth for most people. I have also recently picked up the Touch version which I have enjoyed but it certainly hasn’t made me want to go back to full fat FM. Personally I have found the ME and tactics similar to FM17 but that may be that my tactics and style of play (down the wings and crosses) that have always been my preference suit this years game.

I have been reading the winter update feedback thread over the last few days with interest. It seems there is a lot of negativity towards that ME some probably justified and some not or at least not to the extent that some people seem to think.

What I notice is how many people state the number of hours they have played previous versions of the game and then say this year they won’t get close to that. What I wonder is how much of this disaffection with the game is linked to simply burnout because as much as the game advances and evolves it is still essentially the same game with the same aims each year?

Every year there is always a vocal group of people who are dissatisfied with the game and of course the game isn’t perfect and never will be but perhaps burnout needs to be factored into this as well and the fact that sometimes a break or a change in which version you play is needed.

 

Edited by fuddledfox

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24 minutes ago, kiwityke1983 said:

I respectfully disagree for the following reason. 

In my 2 careers where I got past 10 seasons I discovered a number of things. 

1 - The board would just change its club philosophy to whatever I was playing anyway. So even if it said play pressing football and I didn't bother it would just change after a season to whatever style I actually was playing. 

2 - After awhile almost all the clubs that were offering me jobs (mid to bottom tier sides of the top flights of leagues) had almost uniform club goals. 

3 - Its yet more railroading. Yet more of the sandbox already crafted. The older games allowed me to build my own club philosophies via interaction with the board if I chose to do so. 

4 - The above things just made it like a lot of the new features of recent years kind of pointless beyond the age old where do they want me to finish in the league/cups. 

5 - It's kind of buggy. I came across quite a few bugs within it. For example contradictory statements or them being happy when you'd clearly not done something and extremely upset over the things you actually had achieved. 

I kind of miss the youth development screen. I dunno why seeing as it's 90% info we always had in the game. I defo promoted more youngsters in FM20 than I probably ever have. Beyond that I haven't missed a thing from FM20 on FM18. 

It's funny I read this having just loaded my save. Just got promoted with Stoke, and they've added 'Play defensively solid football', 'play possession football', and 'make the most of set pieces' to the club vision. I can only imagine this has happened because we had the best defence in the league, the highest possession numbers and scored the joint most goals from corners lmao

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