Football Manager 2020 January & February Transfer Updates Feedback Thread

[saihtam]

4 minutes ago, thedudesrug said:

Have you got a link to that data update?

Dont hope for accurate work, but seeing full beefed up Liverpool in FM17 is joy. Pro0 wonderkids also, + changes made using in game editor.

https://sortitoutsi.net/downloads/view/43285/nightstorm-fm-2017-database-season-18-19

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by saihtam

[Tyburn]

12 minutes ago, Mitja said:

Oh come on both those issues are acknowledged in dozens of threads in last two years. You managed to hit the sweet spot and adapt where ME looks better. Good for you and I was in same position where many of issues weren't noticable in my setup but once I changed my approach they appeared.

While descriptions might be misleading they are logical, for example I don't see anything wrong with different mentality or styles descriptions. It should be fundamental that descriptions match what is displayed but it's not. While it might not be a problem for you or me it is a huge problem for AI and thus whole football world in the game. We are talking about sooooo basic stuff here not some unimportant details.

I’ve read about ST movement, which I agree could be better, I long for some banana runs for instance, but they’re certainly not totally static as some have suggested. Pass into space? Seriously? I’ve never had a problem with this. I’ve never even seen this talked about either.

But, Exactly. You’ve seen it yourself. It’s linked to the approach. As in all FM’s. I’m not saying it’s right, or perfect. I’m saying it can all be mitigated. 

Again. Exactly. Descriptions SHOULD be shown by the ME. But as we both agree, they are not. Hence why they need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Or actually ignored. Perhaps we can raise a feature request that the descriptions come with a big warning that says “ignore these because the ME can’t actually replicate them completely - but have a play around and you’ll be able to replicate most all by yourself”.

I don’t think the AI follows descriptions. I think it follows code. Again, AI vs AI, the majority of games in the game world, actually have very little baring on MY ME. And the AI that does, my opponent, is playing in a way it feels is best to counter what I am giving it. Good teams play well, poor teams fight for their lives. Do Barcelona look like Barcelona when I play them? In patches. But then again, they’re playing me. Do I allow them to play the way they want to, or would normally, play?

I’d actually argue the descriptions are unimportant because they’re just a guide. A bit like the star system. A useful tool. But definitive? No.

All just more opinion. I may have actually even given some feedback on this one

Hey SI. Sort out the descriptions in the tactics creator. They’re basically redundant. In fact, perhaps remove all the presets all together. They’re not helping your ME.

[TheInvisibleMan]

Anyone had any luck in getting their strikers scoring on the latest update?

This seemed to be a problem early on in the game, which then got fixed, and is now a real problem again. I get that the ME is tough to tweak and balance everything off against each other but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to have gone backwards with this issue.

[majesticeternity]

6 hours ago, madcullyor said:

 

I'm happy to see some people are enjoying FM 20 and I respect their opinions, but what I don't find fair is comments like these that just because my opinion may be different to theirs or what I'm seeing or how I enjoy the game.

There is alot of assumption in these posts. Maybe I have read this wrong and correct me if I am, but are you presuming everyone that has an issue with the game is a "plug and play" type of person or that we dont watch "real football".

I am not enjoying the game even though I'm performing above expectations due to the lack instructions being followed for example: low crosses being non-existent and many others which have been discussed on this forum.

It's not results that the majority of people are complaining about, it is the lack of style of football being translated from the instructions given to the team to what is been produced on the pitch.

Like many others I've been playing this game since championship manager 01/02 and have extensive experience in how to manage the tactics side of the game. 

Absolutely have your opinion and voice it, but please dont tell people to either like it or go do something else. At the end of the day we all want the best version of the game possible.

Absolutely not my intention to offend you, it is you making the assumptions, and my post was not directed at anyone in particular.

No I did not mean at all those who have issues are plug and play or don’t know football. There are many issues with the ME. I only meant that those who sim games, and don’t manage the games, would find it more frustrating and find more issues. They would be more focused on stats, which don’t give an accurate representation of the ME. Whether we like it or not, SI has almost required us to manage the match, and only then can we really see the issues, and only then can we determine if it’s with our tactic or with players morale/dynamics/abilities, or with the ME.

Then , I only meant about go do something else, as there are many posts on these forums, where people are very angry, mad, or repeat over and over their issues. Well, if they’re not enjoying it at all, and raging so much, maybe it’s time to find something they can enjoy. This games is meant to bring joy, yes?

SI has been told til the players are blue in the face, and it hasn’t been fixed, so if people really hate it and it’s the worst FM ever, like they say, stop playing and find something to make you happy, like how some have gone back to FM 18.

For those of us that have issues with it, but still enjoy it, those were not the ones I was talking about.

[RocheBag]

On 03/03/2020 at 04:52, Tyburn said:

Pick one wrong player, say one wrong thing in a press conference and your team will hit the woodwork 6 times in a match, you’ll concede a last minute wonder goal or concede from yet another set piece.

You sure lost me here. Have we resorted to pretending that our press conferences being able to make our strikers hit the woodwork is a good thing?

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, RocheBag said:

You sure lost me here. Have we resorted to pretending that our press conferences being able to make our strikers hit the woodwork is a good thing?

Eh? Um ... no. Of course not. Just that decisions made outside of tactics and the ME have an influence of what the ME shows us. Was that not obvious?

[RocheBag]

On 03/03/2020 at 08:48, Tyburn said:

Tactics will always divide opinion. But I’m playing a balanced tactic, that creates flowing footballing moves, where my lone ST is scoring freely. I’m not scoring many set pieces, I’m not conceding many. I’m scoring pens, I’m missing a few. I’m scoring cut backs

Any chance of a few highlights? I'd love to see it.

[RocheBag]

29 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

Eh? Um ... no. Of course not. Just that decisions made outside of tactics and the ME have an influence of what the ME shows us. Was that not obvious?

Right and you're praising the fact that our press conferences can lead to hitting the woodwork over and over or conceding set pieces. That's literally what you said.

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Right and you're praising the fact that our press conferences can lead to hitting the woodwork over and over or conceding set pieces. That's literally what you said.

No. Again. For the person ‘literally’ looking for a fight. What I said was that external decisions, for example, press conferences, can lead to wonky ME interpretations of that decision being a bad one. Did I praise this? Really? Or I did I point it out as a possible reason why, all of a sudden, your ST can’t score?

I’m praising the fact that managerial decisions impact what we see in the ME. Absolutely. But you may also notice that I’ve repeatedly said that HOW these decisions get shown to us could be improved.

You've conveniently left that bit out though. 

[sporadicsmiles]

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

I’ve read about ST movement, which I agree could be better,

Striker movement is find in the transition phase, but it is bad in the attacking phase. They are too static and too happy to always sit on the shoulder of a defender. Which is okay if they are a poacher, but not if they are a false 9. This has been an issue since FM19 (where it was much, much worse even in transition). I think this is something SI acknowledge as an issue. It is one of the reasons it is so hard to create something from the centre in the attacking phase. Most central attacking play I see comes in an attacking transition. 

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

Pass into space? Seriously? I’ve never had a problem with this. I’ve never even seen this talked about either.

I agree with you to some degree. When camped in the opposition half against a parked bus, pass into space is a redundant TI, because there is no space to pass into. Which is when a lot of users want to use it. There are some tactical misunderstandings causing unhappiness, which either common sense or (better) better documentation would mitigate. 

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

Again. Exactly. Descriptions SHOULD be shown by the ME. But as we both agree, they are not. Hence why they need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

This is a problem though. In FM19 is was possible to play with a lot of different tactical styles, and the difference was much easier to spot. I have gone back to an FM19 save (just to wrap up unfinished business while I wait for the next patch), and was playing a wonderful counter attacking football based around soaking up pressure and being very direct. And a short vertical passing style when I expected to win. I could see the difference, in the way the team played and the goals we scored. Simply, in FM20, the game almost guides you into playing a set way. There are far too many goals from crosses and not enough through the centre, for example. Which actively encourages wing play. This is something that happens in AI vs AI games too, more goals from crosses than any other types. Which means it is not a user thing only. This is an important distinction.

1 hour ago, Tyburn said:

Again, AI vs AI, the majority of games in the game world, actually have very little baring on MY ME.

If you watch AI games, you get an idea of what the ME is capable of. The AI has the same tools as you, so if they produce a style of football, the user can do it too. What I see in FM20 from this is, well, goals from crosses dominating all other types of goals. Sure, you can see examples of a variety of goals, but around 40-50% of goals are from some form of cross. This is across all teams, big and small. If the AI is predominantly doing this, it means it is a characteristic of the ME. Sure, users can make it worse for themselves (either by trying to cross too much, or not playing with enough width. But it is fact that crossing in general is giving too many goals currently, across the entire game. 

[Tyburn]

33 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

Any chance of a few highlights? I'd love to see it.

If I believed for one minute you’d ‘love to see it’ I’d be happy to.

[MBarbaric]

3 minuti fa, Tyburn ha scritto:

If I believed for one minute you’d ‘love to see it’ I’d be happy to.

i'd really love to see it.

[Tyburn]

Just now, MBarbaric said:

i'd really love to see it.

No problem. Give me a little while and I’ll PM you.

[TheInvisibleMan]

5 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

If I believed for one minute you’d ‘love to see it’ I’d be happy to.

Think a few of us would. Not necessarily because we don't believe you, just to believe that it's possible with this ME.

[Mitja]

Just now, Tyburn said:

No problem. Give me a little while and I’ll PM you.

You could put it here so we can all see it? I'd love it. 

[themadsheep2001]

He can put it wherever he likes. 

If people want to see this stuff @Rashidi has plenty to look at on his YouTube. 

[Gee_Simpson]

2 hours ago, saiyaman said:

It's definitely bad.

In your opinion. It's not a fact. I see no problems with 1v1's anymore, set piece goals and long shots could be toned down for sure, but it's not game breaking imo. 

[themadsheep2001]

1 hour ago, TheInvisibleMan said:

Anyone had any luck in getting their strikers scoring on the latest update?

This seemed to be a problem early on in the game, which then got fixed, and is now a real problem again. I get that the ME is tough to tweak and balance everything off against each other but it's pretty frustrating that we seem to have gone backwards with this issue.

Milik has 21 in 26 or 28 for me. Would be more if I didn't rotate as much

[themadsheep2001]

And just to add, because it's been happening in the last few pages, the sniping at each other needs to go away quickly, otherwise people will be losing posting rights. We shouldn't be having to say this so many times

[Deisler26]

https://i.gyazo.com/972fe2cc6e7e688bb580aa2197229900.mp4

This is how far FM has come, in my opinion. I've seen nice play before, but the striker just casually stroking the ball into the net is by far one of my favourite goals I've ever seen

[Tyburn]

1 minute ago, Deisler26 said:

https://i.gyazo.com/972fe2cc6e7e688bb580aa2197229900.mp4

This is how far FM has come, in my opinion. I've seen nice play before, but the striker just casually stroking the ball into the net is by far one of my favourite goals I've ever seen

Was that a through ball? Lovely finish.

[Deisler26]

1 minute ago, Tyburn said:

Was that a through ball? Lovely finish.

I'd say so!

[saihtam]

28 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Milik has 21 in 26 or 28 for me. Would be more if I didn't rotate as much

But could you also share what is situation with AI strikers?

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, saihtam said:

But could you also share what is situation with AI strikers?

I have no idea. I don't track the ai unless I think I need to look at dangerous opposition

[qwerty22]

47 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I have no idea. I don't track the ai unless I think I need to look at dangerous opposition

With all due respect, You guys have been asking the users to provide proof and pkm's of every issue that they face in order to try to downplay it and it's obvious that the issues are serious (Hence the number of failed patches of ME)

If you make a statement about your game being perfect and Milik scoring 21 goals, Kindly provide proof otherwise it'd be just as bad as others saying game is trash/sucks bla bla, And then trying to brush away your AI v AI situation with the I have no idea excuse, Well look it up and report back just like we all try to do we need your feedback don't we?

Users that claim they face no issues with the game are the same guys for 4 or 5 years and I don't think they're having any positive effect on the effort of providing feedback unless they show us they're truthful.

Feedback and proof goes both ways unless it's being done on purpose.

 

[odigweg]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Striker movement is find in the transition phase, but it is bad in the attacking phase. They are too static and too happy to always sit on the shoulder of a defender. Which is okay if they are a poacher, but not if they are a false 9. This has been an issue since FM19 (where it was much, much worse even in transition). I think this is something SI acknowledge as an issue. It is one of the reasons it is so hard to create something from the centre in the attacking phase. Most central attacking play I see comes in an attacking transition. 

I agree with you to some degree. When camped in the opposition half against a parked bus, pass into space is a redundant TI, because there is no space to pass into. Which is when a lot of users want to use it. There are some tactical misunderstandings causing unhappiness, which either common sense or (better) better documentation would mitigate. 

This is a problem though. In FM19 is was possible to play with a lot of different tactical styles, and the difference was much easier to spot. I have gone back to an FM19 save (just to wrap up unfinished business while I wait for the next patch), and was playing a wonderful counter attacking football based around soaking up pressure and being very direct. And a short vertical passing style when I expected to win. I could see the difference, in the way the team played and the goals we scored. Simply, in FM20, the game almost guides you into playing a set way. There are far too many goals from crosses and not enough through the centre, for example. Which actively encourages wing play. This is something that happens in AI vs AI games too, more goals from crosses than any other types. Which means it is not a user thing only. This is an important distinction.

If you watch AI games, you get an idea of what the ME is capable of. The AI has the same tools as you, so if they produce a style of football, the user can do it too. What I see in FM20 from this is, well, goals from crosses dominating all other types of goals. Sure, you can see examples of a variety of goals, but around 40-50% of goals are from some form of cross. This is across all teams, big and small. If the AI is predominantly doing this, it means it is a characteristic of the ME. Sure, users can make it worse for themselves (either by trying to cross too much, or not playing with enough width. But it is fact that crossing in general is giving too many goals currently, across the entire game. 

Everything you said here is how I feel. In the final third strikers are way too happy playing on the shoulder which totally should not be the case for a False 9 or DLF. If you watch Liverpool and Firmino in the attacking phase, you see how difficult he makes life for defenders (Same if you watch some of Pep's best teams). I'd argue that the wingers also tend to be rather static in the attacking phase as well (though not as annoyingly as the strikers). 

I recently took the advice of a few on here and went back to try FM17 and FM18 and boy am I having a blast. 

Lastly, I noticed someone mention that the games between AI and AI are irrelevant. Not for me! When I prep for big games, I usually go back to said "AI v AI" games to see what my upcoming opponent did in certain situations so as to gain an advantage. It's something that has paid dividends for me over the years. But now when I go back I notice a lot of the threat they pose is either crossing for a five-foot winger or a set piece goal or Paul Scholes special from the parking lot. This makes it difficult to plan a match, as you can only do so much to counter such problems. Also, don't get me started on the def. set piece player positioning! 

[themadsheep2001]

21 minutes ago, qwerty22 said:

With all due respect, You guys have been asking the users to provide proof and pkm's of every issue that they face in order to try to downplay it and it's obvious that the issues are serious (Hence the number of failed patches of ME)

If you make a statement about your game being perfect and Milik scoring 21 goals, Kindly provide proof otherwise it'd be just as bad as others saying game is trash/sucks bla bla, And then trying to brush away your AI v AI situation with the I have no idea excuse, Well look it up and report back just like we all try to do we need your feedback don't we?

Users that claim they face no issues with the game are the same guys for 4 or 5 years and I don't think they're having any positive effect on the effort of providing feedback unless they show us they're truthful.

Feedback and proof goes both ways unless it's being done on purpose.

 

This is actually incorrect and frankly more than a little disingenuous. We don't ask for proof in that sense. We ask for PKMs so SI can have the code from the example people provide and investigate that specific example. Especially important if it's something that's not being replicated everywhere or when it's something that can be varying depending on the tactical setup.

We ask for saves because saves can vary massively from player to player, so when you provide a save, si can investigate the coding in it, for example any dodgy transfers that shouldn't be happening, or weird examples of scheduling, things that might not be being replicated in SIs tests or in other saves

This wierd digging out of people having differing and varying opinions needs to stop. If it continues after this we will be handing out post restrictions. As long as it's constructive, everyone's opinions and experiences are valid. 

[Guest]

I have a feeling that 20.4 with an update in ME will be out soon.

[qwerty22]

1 hour ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Milik has 21 in 26 or 28 for me. Would be more if I didn't rotate as much

Can you show us a screenshot plz?

 

[SazoJohnno]

Can you feel it in your little toe though? 

Seriously though - I am seriously enjoying this update on 2.3.0. 

[rp1966]

50 minutes ago, qwerty22 said:

 

Actually there's an important point here.  It's OK looking at PKMs that show an issue, but to properly determine the cause of a problem you also need counter-examples. So SI should really also be gathering  PKMs from those who are saying they don't have a particular issue for comparison purposes. For example, if everyone saying there's a problem in a particular area are using counter-press and those that don't have the problem aren't; or those having the problem are all playing in elite leagues and those that don't see the problem are in lower leagues , that is incredibly useful diagnostic information.

And AI vs AI performance should be highly significant as it is the baseline for the ME before a human gets involved.

Edited March 4, 2020 by rp1966

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, rp1966 said:

Actually there's an important point here.  It's OK looking at PKMs that show an issue, but to properly determine the cause of a problem you also need counter-examples. So SI should really also be gathering  PKMs from those who are saying they don't have a particular issue for comparison purposes.

And AI vs AI performance should be highly significant as it the baseline for the ME before a human gets involved.

And they do ask. And they get them. 

[akkm]

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

I agree with you to some degree. When camped in the opposition half against a parked bus, pass into space is a redundant TI, because there is no space to pass into. Which is when a lot of users want to use it. There are some tactical misunderstandings causing unhappiness, which either common sense or (better) better documentation would mitigate. 

this may be the actual case but the pass into space shouldn't be redundant at all...it should just be able to wait and assess space more judiciously and when even small spaces are identified then when the opening is more propitious to play a threaded pass into even a small pocket of space either into a players feet or even a slight opening for a run just ahead (even small amount ahead) of a runner. The major issue with the engine is it isn't assessing or evaluating space/runs at all well...and when I say that it's dreadful at times...especially when there's lots of bodies in and around it. It mostly needs a huge amount of space to play passes into and this is what is needed to bump the creativity up. I've seen people talk about movement not being good enough and that's entirely accurate but it's not the main cause of the central play issues...it's pass decision making simple as that. The engine is severely undersimulated in that element and it's especially evident in the attacking third and exacerbated even further when you have a deep defence or many bodies in and around there.

The richness of movement is sorely lacking the dynamism required to emulate real world football in terms of moving through the phases and recycling when options and passing lanes are shut down. @MBarbarichas provided multiple examples on the forums of how that should be done and it's a significant area of improvement that's required. But all anyone has to do is manage two teams and mess around with one teams defence and midfield screen and you'll see that the way other other team will attempt to break down the messed up formation passing decision wise is weak. So on that basis it's essentially pass decision making that's severely undersimulated. There are numerous examples of players in decent and even good space to be put through either with a through ball or threaded pass but the option is very very rarely taken. Doing that exercise will also show that movement needs a complementary bump up as well but that main driver of poor central play and creativity in the top third is currently pass decision making. This is not opinion, hyperbole or perception but simply the case.

The match engine simply hasn't the tools pass decision simulation wise to make decisions and passes which will put players either in on goal or put them into good positions for other moves/options to play out in second or third phases or 'thinking ahead' in a move. This is what SI needs to work on to improve the poor fare we've had to endure recently. Once pass decision making is correct to move from defence to midfield to attack and recycle the ball when options aren't there and make the actual passes when the options are there then the complementary movement can take the bump up it also requires to make the play 'smart' and more in line with real world football. Until that happens we will be left with the increasingly limited offering we have seen recently with incessant circular balancing exercises which just produces knock ons ad infinitum but is actually just making the engine worse and less and less a simulation of how football is in the real world

I'll make a longer post on all this at some stage to expand further and it needs to be laid out in one piece somewhere for SI to see it

[craigcwwe]

5 hours ago, duff33 said:

After seeing, what I felt, was a more realistic performance from the ME during the recent beta, the Winter Update has somewhat taken the wind out of my sails - my IFs seem to behave differently since the update, passing up opportunities to shoot where they did before, getting themselves in to awkward positions that didn't occur before (or occurred with far less frequency anyway), whilst my AM's form has fallen off a cliff as well (as has my box to box midfielder).

My tactic had previously been working quite well (I'm no expert by any means, but results were good) but since coming back to my save with the new update, everything feels 'off' in an attacking sense in the final third. Less crosses going in, less shots being attempted etc. 

It's becoming frustrating seeing an in-form team suddenly collapse in such a specific area of the pitch (rather than a more general collapse in form).

Is there a way for me to role the ME back to the beta? 

No. 

3 hours ago, Tyburn said:

I’ve read about ST movement, which I agree could be better, I long for some banana runs for instance, but they’re certainly not totally static as some have suggested. Pass into space? Seriously? I’ve never had a problem with this. I’ve never even seen this talked about either.

But, Exactly. You’ve seen it yourself. It’s linked to the approach. As in all FM’s. I’m not saying it’s right, or perfect. I’m saying it can all be mitigated. 

Again. Exactly. Descriptions SHOULD be shown by the ME. But as we both agree, they are not. Hence why they need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Or actually ignored. Perhaps we can raise a feature request that the descriptions come with a big warning that says “ignore these because the ME can’t actually replicate them completely - but have a play around and you’ll be able to replicate most all by yourself”.

I don’t think the AI follows descriptions. I think it follows code. Again, AI vs AI, the majority of games in the game world, actually have very little baring on MY ME. And the AI that does, my opponent, is playing in a way it feels is best to counter what I am giving it. Good teams play well, poor teams fight for their lives. Do Barcelona look like Barcelona when I play them? In patches. But then again, they’re playing me. Do I allow them to play the way they want to, or would normally, play?

I’d actually argue the descriptions are unimportant because they’re just a guide. A bit like the star system. A useful tool. But definitive? No.

All just more opinion. I may have actually even given some feedback on this one

Hey SI. Sort out the descriptions in the tactics creator. They’re basically redundant. In fact, perhaps remove all the presets all together. They’re not helping your ME.

That's simply not going to happen. 

[madcullyor]

3 hours ago, majesticeternity said:

Absolutely not my intention to offend you, it is you making the assumptions, and my post was not directed at anyone in particular.

No I did not mean at all those who have issues are plug and play or don’t know football. There are many issues with the ME. I only meant that those who sim games, and don’t manage the games, would find it more frustrating and find more issues. They would be more focused on stats, which don’t give an accurate representation of the ME. Whether we like it or not, SI has almost required us to manage the match, and only then can we really see the issues, and only then can we determine if it’s with our tactic or with players morale/dynamics/abilities, or with the ME.

Then , I only meant about go do something else, as there are many posts on these forums, where people are very angry, mad, or repeat over and over their issues. Well, if they’re not enjoying it at all, and raging so much, maybe it’s time to find something they can enjoy. This games is meant to bring joy, yes?

SI has been told til the players are blue in the face, and it hasn’t been fixed, so if people really hate it and it’s the worst FM ever, like they say, stop playing and find something to make you happy, like how some have gone back to FM 18.

For those of us that have issues with it, but still enjoy it, those were not the ones I was talking about.

Judging by both your reactions I can see it was neither of your intention's but it came across like that a bit.

Understand your point fully and I'm all for constructive criticism, but I do agree that (some) posts can be over the top. At the end of the day we all just want the same goal which is the best version of the game possible.

 

 

 

[Ragged Rascal]

Right, I've been playing as Rangers, and I'm obviously dominating games in Scotland. 

But, the amount of one shot one goal ratio for opposition teams is absolutely atrocious! 

Had one match where the opposition had 4 shots on goal and scored 3! 

Its not even realistic and becoming farcical. 

Please sort this mess out because my chances to goals are less than 10% and the opposition is over 50%.

Edited March 4, 2020 by Ragged Rascal

[MBarbaric]

2 ore fa, akkm ha scritto:

The match engine simply hasn't the tools pass decision simulation wise to make decisions and passes which will put players either in on goal or put them into good positions for other moves/options to play out in second or third phases or 'thinking ahead' in a move. This is what SI needs to work on to improve the poor fare we've had to endure recently.

never thought of the ME in this way, but I think this might be the problem in achieving "football like behaviour" in the game.

reluctance to make a vertical pass is current problem with the ME, but more important, there's a deeper problem akkm laid out here. Players appear to think only about the next pass and that is it. This isn't how football works and this is why the ME fails to properly recreate possession football or positional attacks in general. It is fairly easy to mask it if you only play counter attacking where basically you only go forward (and I assume people who see through balls mostly refer to this) and there is space. However, against a deep block, coordinated off the ball movement and quick passing is fundamental.

 

if you look at this move as an example of positional attack, you can see how much movement is involved to get a player in space and time to get a through ball. 

1. whole team needs to get into their offensive shape

2. CF and CMR have to make runs before the third player gets in space to play a through ball

 

the same happens above. there are two players that move in order to get the opposition out of shape before a player is able to receive with correct orientation, space and time to play a pass to another free player.

This coordinated movement isn't a fluke it is predetermined and worked on. The analysis above doesn't show it, but each phase of the move has different passing options that open depending on what the opposition does. This simply doesn't happen in the game precisely because there is no plan. Players in FM think only about the first pass but have no idea/plan how that will end or where it will lead. This can be fine if you play counter attack where there is a lot of space and more time, but against deep block, it all falls apart. Especially now that teams actually defend correct space (unlike FM16,17,18).

 

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by MBarbaric

[Tyburn]

4 hours ago, sporadicsmiles said:

Striker movement is find in the transition phase, but it is bad in the attacking phase. They are too static and too happy to always sit on the shoulder of a defender. Which is okay if they are a poacher, but not if they are a false 9. This has been an issue since FM19 (where it was much, much worse even in transition). I think this is something SI acknowledge as an issue. It is one of the reasons it is so hard to create something from the centre in the attacking phase. Most central attacking play I see comes in an attacking transition. 

I agree with you to some degree. When camped in the opposition half against a parked bus, pass into space is a redundant TI, because there is no space to pass into. Which is when a lot of users want to use it. There are some tactical misunderstandings causing unhappiness, which either common sense or (better) better documentation would mitigate. 

This is a problem though. In FM19 is was possible to play with a lot of different tactical styles, and the difference was much easier to spot. I have gone back to an FM19 save (just to wrap up unfinished business while I wait for the next patch), and was playing a wonderful counter attacking football based around soaking up pressure and being very direct. And a short vertical passing style when I expected to win. I could see the difference, in the way the team played and the goals we scored. Simply, in FM20, the game almost guides you into playing a set way. There are far too many goals from crosses and not enough through the centre, for example. Which actively encourages wing play. This is something that happens in AI vs AI games too, more goals from crosses than any other types. Which means it is not a user thing only. This is an important distinction.

If you watch AI games, you get an idea of what the ME is capable of. The AI has the same tools as you, so if they produce a style of football, the user can do it too. What I see in FM20 from this is, well, goals from crosses dominating all other types of goals. Sure, you can see examples of a variety of goals, but around 40-50% of goals are from some form of cross. This is across all teams, big and small. If the AI is predominantly doing this, it means it is a characteristic of the ME. Sure, users can make it worse for themselves (either by trying to cross too much, or not playing with enough width. But it is fact that crossing in general is giving too many goals currently, across the entire game. 

Good points.

I’ve always found that the ME guides you into playing a few set ways though. Some philosophies are always a little more finely tuned with the ME than others. I’ve been having great fun with a, i suppose you’d call it, fluid counter style. That’s what the game is currently calling it anyway. However to my joy it becomes a possession based tactic in the final third, where we cycle the ball, if the AI gets a chance to reshape. I think this is realistic. Admittedly the ball ends out wide more often than not, as it should, because the opposition sit in numbers deep and narrow. But occasionally I’ll open them up with a through ball, to a variety of my 3 forwards or even a CM breaking through. If we break quick enough, the starting vision and main threat of this tactic, then yeah, it’s through balls, and running with the ball from my front 3 for some devastating countering. I’ve found it is dependant on the opposition largely as to what type of game I’ll see with this tactic. 

Personally, I don’t see the AI replicate my style at all, because it is custom. The difference between user input and the limitations the AI has with itself. We as users are forcing the AI to do things it isn’t necessarily coded to do. It either responds well to our instructions or it wigs out. AI vs AI shows us the base of the ME, but it is our influence, the multitude of variables that can I suppose send it a bit haywire, or create some interesting phases. The pre set tactics, I believe have some instructions and coding to them that the ME recognises and acts out accordingly. Or doesn’t as the case may be.

My point is that using a custom base, where I build a tactic from scratch, with no in built coding of this is a, for instance, tiki taka or gegenpress style, seems to allow me more freedom in what the ME gives back to me. Placebo? Maybe. But it’s how I’ve always done it. When I finish my tactic the game then puts a description on it for me, like in my manager profile I’m known for a fluid counter tactic. Am I? Ok then. Thanks. Weirdly, and this got me proper confused, last season, with my previous club (Napoli, I’m now Man City) the exact same tactic, literally nothing had changed, was labelled a gegenpress tactic! Again, eh? Ok. I mean whatever. It’s a vision. A tactic that works. The game can call it whatever it wants. Doesn’t affect me. It’s what I see on the pitch that’s important. And it’s what I see, my user experience of the ME, that is also, ultimately, the most important thing. I’m really not interested that the AI only scores from crosses against itself. I’m sure it IS pointing to it’s own deficiencies. Do I only score crosses? No. Do I concede only crosses? No. Because my defensive set up is nothing like what the AI’s is, because of my input. User input. Descriptions are all well and good, but they don’t beat what we see for ourselves on the pitch. 

I think the crossing issue is, as has been mentioned, to do with AI teams looking to defend themselves. Playing narrow and deep. I don’t see the big teams do this in FM20 though. They don’t haven’t to I guess, and it makes playing a counter based tactic a good option. All teams do seem to find it hard to get through my defence though, which is why, when I do concede, it appears to come from a set piece, or a long shot. I don’t get caught on the break very often. I seem to be able to deal with crosses. But 2nd balls around the box that I lose can often lead to a goal conceded. But this is how I’ve set up to play. If I played a risky high line, which I have in the past, I open myself up to all sorts of problems. And I conceded a different variety of types of goals because of it.

I do not doubt for one minute that the ME could do with more tweaking and improvement. To continue to balance it out more. But user input cannot be discounted as being a major player in what it shows us.

[Gee_Simpson]

1 hour ago, Ragged Rascal said:

Right, I've been playing as Rangers, and I'm obviously dominating games in Scotland. 

But, the amount of one shot one goal ratio for opposition teams is absolutely atrocious! 

Had one match where the opposition had 4 shots on goal and scored 3! 

Its not even realistic and becoming farcical. 

Please sort this mess out because my chances to goals are less than 10% and the opposition is over 50%.

Erm Rangers just lost tonight (useless!) in real life at home to Hamilton in exactly the same manner you are describing here. 

[Gee_Simpson]

[RocheBag]

5 hours ago, Tyburn said:

No. Again. For the person ‘literally’ looking for a fight. What I said was that external decisions, for example, press conferences, can lead to wonky ME interpretations of that decision being a bad one. Did I praise this? Really? Or I did I point it out as a possible reason why, all of a sudden, your ST can’t score?

I’m praising the fact that managerial decisions impact what we see in the ME. Absolutely. But you may also notice that I’ve repeatedly said that HOW these decisions get shown to us could be improved.

You've conveniently left that bit out though. 

You clearly stated you love that off the pitch decisions have impact on the ME and one of the examples you used was a bad press conference resulting in your striker hitting the post 6 times. If that's not what you meant, great. But don't pretend it's not what you said. 

Also, you don't know anything about me. I asked you a simple question. The only person looking for a fight is you.

5 hours ago, Tyburn said:

If I believed for one minute you’d ‘love to see it’ I’d be happy to.

As I said.

Edited March 4, 2020 by RocheBag

[Tyburn]

3 minutes ago, RocheBag said:

You clearly stated you love that off the pitch decisions have impact on the ME and one of the examples you used was a bad press conference resulting in your striker hitting the post 6 times. If that's not what you meant, great. But don't pretend it's not what you said. 

Also, you don't know anything about me. I asked you a simple question. The only person looking for a fight is you.

As I said.

This is literally pointless. Please stop talking to me.

[RocheBag]

6 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

This is literally pointless. Please stop talking to me.

Gladly. But in the future, please don't throw baseless accusations at people. Thank you.

[FrazT]

Please just all of you cut out the bickering

[RocheBag]

Just now, FrazT said:

Please just all of you cut out the bickering

I apologize. I just don't like being accused of things by strangers. Won't happen again.

[Tyburn]

1 hour ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Erm Rangers just lost tonight (useless!) in real life at home to Hamilton in exactly the same manner you are describing here. 

This is brilliant! Perfect timing

[Gee_Simpson]

9 minutes ago, Tyburn said:

This is brilliant! Perfect timing

Yeah I thought so too 

[Hurradiegams]

Sorry guys, but I need to cope.
I am in my 5th season and currently managing Spurs (my third club)
And this season is the cheesiest, most infuriating season I ever had on any Football manager.
I dominated the dutch league the season before with the same tactic (won like 12 games in a row). And the beginning it looked promising, beating everyone besides the absolute top teams away from home (often getting smacked like 3-0 by Arsenal, City and United) but beat everyone Spurs should be able to beat at this point.

And after like the first 10 games or so the game completely changed for me. I missed EVERY penalty this season (I didn't have much in the first 10 games, atleast not enough that I would have noticed the broken conversion rate). Troy Parrott and Andrea Belotti are top notch strikers at this point and missed 9 out of the last 9 penalties. I tried another penalty taker, missed 2/2.

The amounts of instant red cards I conceived is staggering. Like 4 red cards in 9 games.  I usually dominate games with 30 shots, atleast 10 on target to something like 5 shots and 3 on target by the opponent and can often barely scrap a draw. 
My two strikers are absolutely brain dead when it comes to positioning and can't finish anything that isn't like an open goal (1v1 are pretty rare since I dominate the game and opponents often sit deep). More often than not my defenders decide to join in on being braindead and either turn slow enough they can get disposed by the half way line or head the ball directly to strikers and midfielders who finish 30 yards out - top bins. 
Sorry for the rant, but this isn't my first FM, nor is this my first club or the first season on this career. But the amount of times I see completely broken and borderline insulting stuff happening to my team is infuriating. 
I am considering to go back to FM 17 at this point, since FM 20 seems to be broken in so many regards that I think it won't ever get fixed. (1v1s were a big issue before the patch, penalties are still broken imo, defensive cohesion non existing and World Class strikers simply go goal drouts that last 20 games...)

[Robioto]

23 hours ago, FrazT said:

Stating the obvious here but why not try it for yourself and make up your own mind rather than draw a conclusion from the feedback thread?

Because I already have 200 hours with the game and all the complaints remain the same...

Sure, I will be giving it another go but I had expected to see improvements to all the glaring issues this version of the game suffers from. We'll see, perhaps I'll be surprised, but I highly doubt it after reading the same old complaints over and over, here and in other FM social circles.

[Ragged Rascal]

9 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

Erm Rangers just lost tonight (useless!) in real life at home to Hamilton in exactly the same manner you are describing here. 

Yeah...bad example! Lol