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Jack722

A Discussion About the Advanced Playmaker

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Posted (edited)

Or just about number 10's in general.

I'm not going to be posting any tactics, as this is going to be a very general post. 

Recently, I completed a season long save with AC Milan. I was playing Paqueta as an AMs but he wasn't really producing any meaningful out. However, it didn't really bother me as we were playing quite well. One game, my creative deeplying playmaker was injured, so I played Paqueta as an APa instead. In that game, he picked up the ball from about the half way line, skipped past a couple defenders, which pulled players out of position, before slotting a through ball to one of my wingers, and I fell in love with the role. 

The problem is, after that game, he went back to being a bit useless. And I'm not sure why.

I don't really buy that 'the CAM position is weak this year' which i hear a lot of people say. The reason why is that advanced playmakers in central midfield, as well as Trequartistas/false 9s in attack still tend to be popular and produce good outputs. These roles pretty much gravitate to the same position - from wherever they start. It just doesn't make sense to me why simply moving the player to do the same thing but in another position should improve him so much. An example of this would be Thiago Almada. As a well known wonderkid, he is seen in a lot of teams on the forums, but I'm sure that 90% he is being played out of postition as a MEZ or a F9, even though he is a natural number 10.

Basically, I'm not looking for someone to take a look at my tactics, or list a set of roles that's worked for them. I want to find out common reasons why the number 10 gets lots of poor ratings, as well as how to get the best out of a number 10 through team instructions and role selection with reasons as to why it works.

Obviously, every player is different, but for reference, here is an example of the player I was using. He has the typical AP attributes that you would expect (first touch, flair, dribbling, passing etc)

Lucas Paqueta - FM2019 Wonderkid Review | FM BLOG

(Ignore that he is shown as a natural CM here :lol:)

Before you say that there are loads of ways to get a number 10 being the star player, or at least being one of the most important players in the team, imagine that you have the guy in the pic above, and you have an unlimited budget to bring in whatever kinds of players that you want to play with him. How would you set up the roles and team instructions in order to make him the star player? Also, i dont really care what his role is (doesn't have to be an advanced playmaker - as long as he is in the number 10 slot.)

For example, maybe he would have the highest potential playing in a high pressing team that keeps the ball, so that he can get the most touches on the ball as possible and not have to be wasted defending. Or maybe he'd be best in a counter attacking side, where there will be the most space in front of and behind the defence in order to dribble past a few players then play a through ball to a striker.

And if not, a link to any kind of article or video that talks about the advanced playmaker (whether in real life or in FM) would be appreciated as well.

EDIT

99% sure that my issue was the FM19 match engine.

Id spent hours reading articles/this thread/ watching videos to help get the best out of a no.10, even if it degraded the tactic as a whole, and the no.10 was always a passenger for me no matter what.

Eventually I gave up and since moved to FM20. Now, I ive gone back to making normal tactics, without putting so much thought into a particular Role, and my no.10’s (although not always spectacular) are certainly no longer passengers.

anyone using FM19 that struggles with this, I recommend you to download the FM20 demo and import your tactic, then let me know if you find the same thing.

Edited by Jack722

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Advanced playmaker or any playmaker roles has a natural tendency to move towards the ball meaning that an advanced playmaker is often away from zone 14 which is typically associated with a traditional no.10. I found that the true number 10 that operates in zone 14 most of the time in game is the attacking midfielder on support and the enganche.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, dekzeh said:

I find the reason many people struggle to get their AM performing is that they don't give him any space to produce anything. It's more often than not seen in the 4-2-3-1, pairing with inside forwards and inverted wingers, and thoses + one or both of the CMs pushing give the AM no space to operate, he'll often receive the ball in a very cluttered area and be asked to make magic happen (risky passes, dribble more are all often seen in those roles) and then what most often happens is.. he loses the ball. A lot. And that will drag his ratings down. If you want the AM to be more effective you need to give him space to operate, that is key.

Here's my current N10, guy who broke the record for average rating and assists lasts season

FQ2dS.png

You can see he's good but not out of the world extraordinary, his other PPMs that don't show are: Tries Tricks, Cuts Inside From Both Wings and Likes To Beat Man Repeatedly.

Here's his stats from last season, his first at the club

 FQ2hB.png

So, what did I do to get him space to operate? Here's my tactic:

FQ2k4.png

 

His PIs are: Roam From Position and Take More Risks

Some key ideas: the double pivot being in the DM strata, deeper than normal. The striker being in a role that pushes the defensive line back, as opposed to dropping deep, and at least one the wide man playing actually wide, as a winger. I want to experiment with 2 wingers but don't have the personal yet, and I also don't want to become too one dimensional.

I'll add the note that he is my set piece taker btw, so those assist numbers are a little inflated, but not much, as I don't focus much on it and don't even touch the set piece section, just let the game do it's thing as otherwise it's too abusive I find. But anyway, here's an assist of his in the Champions League Final, when we were 2-0 down against Tottenham. Notice in how much space he is when he receives the ball. Ortiz is my DLP on the DM strata, and as the Tottenham players press him they leave a huge gap for Mateo to operate in, and he ends up finding the kind of pass I often see people in this forum complain that never happens in FM20, beautiful goal.

MateoAssist.thumb.gif.26ac5605a472049e54f8ee78fdfca24d.gif

Wow that is exactly what I was looking for thanks! How did you decide on the roles for the Wingbacks? seeing as I feel they do the same job as a winger. And also, have you considered moving your attacking wingers back to the midfield strata? Maybe that will allow you to play the inverted winger with a full back overlapping - without using the same space as the number 10. My worry about wingers + 2 DMs is that you might not get enough bodies in the attack?  And then like I said, wingbacks overlapping probabl won't be as effective as the wingers don't cut in.

I also think that is by far the most impressive output I've ever seen in my saves, or on these forums, for an attacking midfielder - well done!

Finally, how did tou decide on the team instructions? Play out of defence + higher tempo + pass into space seems ideal for an AP in the number 10 zone. I can imagine he recieves the ball on the fround where he can use his off the ball + first touch (instead of his jumping reach + strength + bravery in an ariel duel) due to Play out of defence. And then the higher tempo + pass into space allows you to attack quickly before the opposition defenders have a chance to reduce the space behind them - ideal for through balls. However, I'm not quite sure why you chose to play narrower?

Edited by Jack722

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9 hours ago, dekzeh said:

 

MateoAssist.thumb.gif.26ac5605a472049e54f8ee78fdfca24d.gif

Looks like witchcraft. A through ball from an AM to a forward! What is this 2017 :)

Seriously this is great. If I could produce this I would be happy.

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How frequently does that goal happen?

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And on a non AM question - how did you create the image/video/gif?

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I have to admit - That goal has got me all sorts of excited.

I have a nice AM coming to my Sampdoria side next season. I'm desperate to get the AMC position to work.

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9 hours ago, dekzeh said:

I find the reason many people struggle to get their AM performing is that they don't give him any space to produce anything. It's more often than not seen in the 4-2-3-1, pairing with inside forwards and inverted wingers, and thoses + one or both of the CMs pushing give the AM no space to operate, he'll often receive the ball in a very cluttered area and be asked to make magic happen (risky passes, dribble more are all often seen in those roles) and then what most often happens is.. he loses the ball. A lot. And that will drag his ratings down. If you want the AM to be more effective you need to give him space to operate, that is key.

I agree with this, using formations that don't give the AMC any space to operate in is definitely a major part of the problems so many people seem to have with them.

Another issue is that people are using players that really aren't all that suited to playing the position. The AMC operates in the most hotly contested area of the pitch and will be coming up against both central defenders and defensive midfielders, a player in the position will need great movement to find himself space and he will need to be able to hold on to the ball and make the right decisions under pressure so having good ratings in off the ball, composure and balance is essential.

I've frequently seen people asking why their player with single-digit ratings in off the ball and balance struggle to perform, as if it were some great mystery why a player who is never available for a pass and struggles to stand upright isn't playing well.

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My issue is with the personnal I have in my team and the fact that I want them to all start together.

Werner ST, Mane LW, Salah RW and Roberto Firmino CAM

I know by moving one of the wingers from an Inside Foward/Inverted Winger to a classic winger would help my CAM thrive but I just can't do that with Mo and Mane as it just doesn't feel right.

When I play 4-2-3-1 Werner, Salah and Mane bang in goals and although I don't want Firmino to contribute as much goal wise, I'd like to see more from him as the ratings are always between 6-6.9.

You already touched on the subject already with the CAM being too crowded with 2 inverted wingers, CM and a ST. Any other suggestions? Or is it just a case of having 1 classic winger and/or CDMs?

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2 hours ago, Jack722 said:

Wow that is exactly what I was looking for thanks! How did you decide on the roles for the Wingbacks? seeing as I feel they do the same job as a winger. And also, have you considered moving your attacking wingers back to the midfield strata? Maybe that will allow you to play the inverted winger with a full back overlapping - without using the same space as the number 10. My worry about wingers + 2 DMs is that you might not get enough bodies in the attack?  And then like I said, wingbacks overlapping probabl won't be as effective as the wingers don't cut in.

I also think that is by far the most impressive output I've ever seen in my saves, or on these forums, for an attacking midfielder - well done!

Finally, how did tou decide on the team instructions? Play out of defence + higher tempo + pass into space seems ideal for an AP in the number 10 zone. I can imagine he recieves the ball on the fround where he can use his off the ball + first touch (instead of his jumping reach + strength + bravery in an ariel duel) due to Play out of defence. And then the higher tempo + pass into space allows you to attack quickly before the opposition defenders have a chance to reduce the space behind them - ideal for through balls. However, I'm not quite sure why you chose to play narrower?

I toyed quite a bit with the WB roles, in the end I've had the most success and balance with both as WB-Su. I'll note though that my LWB is a lot more offensive minded than the right sided one, with the PPMs Hugs Line, Gets Forward Whenever Possible and Runs With Ball Down Left whilst my RWB is a very fast CB with 10-11 for dribbling/crossing that was converted, so despite them being in the same role naturally my left WB is more adventurous.

I used to be really opposed to WB/Winger on the same side, without really using it, but now that I did I learnt one simple but important thing: players aren't stupid. The WB won't be holding hands with the Winger, he'll be smart, when the winger is wide he'll stay a little behind and offer the option to receive a backwards pass and recycle position, but as we advance to the final third, as my width is set to narrow, the winger often tends to move into the box, attacking the channels, and at that point the WB does provide the attacking width. It worked really well for me. My original idea was to have a CWB-Su or WB-At on the left with a FB-Su on the right, and it also worked but not as well as this, but I think it really depends on the players you have available.

Also, the tactic wasn't created with the idea of making the AM work, so not everything was built to please him, if it was I probably wouldn't be playing narrow. A lot of my inspiration for the tactic came from @AceAvenger's gegenpressing thread, lots of good discussion there, and I constantly tweaked to fit my ideas and the players I have. I did at points make a few changes specifically to get more out of the AM atfter a while, the more important ones being changing the roles of my right winger and striker.

2 hours ago, jozza800 said:

Looks like witchcraft. A through ball from an AM to a forward! What is this 2017 :)

Seriously this is great. If I could produce this I would be happy.

Thanks :)

2 hours ago, jozza800 said:

How frequently does that goal happen?

That specific combination? Hard to say, it happens quite a bit through the season, as those were my top scorer and top assister. I also get assists from through balls with other players.

2 hours ago, jozza800 said:

And on a non AM question - how did you create the image/video/gif?

Software called ScreenToGif

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24 minutes ago, LDP said:

My issue is with the personnal I have in my team and the fact that I want them to all start together.

Werner ST, Mane LW, Salah RW and Roberto Firmino CAM

I know by moving one of the wingers from an Inside Foward/Inverted Winger to a classic winger would help my CAM thrive but I just can't do that with Mo and Mane as it just doesn't feel right.

When I play 4-2-3-1 Werner, Salah and Mane bang in goals and although I don't want Firmino to contribute as much goal wise, I'd like to see more from him as the ratings are always between 6-6.9.

You already touched on the subject already with the CAM being too crowded with 2 inverted wingers, CM and a ST. Any other suggestions? Or is it just a case of having 1 classic winger and/or CDMs?

I'm just sharing what worked for me, I'm sure there are different ways you could make it work. IIRC Firmino has 'Comes Deep To Get The Ball', so maybe Salah/Mané wouldn't get in his way too much, main issue would be he'd a lot alongisde the CMs and too deep to make actual goal contributions, but really I can't say much without seeing the tactic as a whole, as everything works together. 

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1 hour ago, dekzeh said:

I used to be really opposed to WB/Winger on the same side, without really using it, but now that I did I learnt one simple but important thing: players aren't stupid. The WB won't be holding hands with the Winger, he'll be smart, when the winger is wide he'll stay a little behind and offer the option to receive a backwards pass and recycle position, but as we advance to the final third, as my width is set to narrow, the winger often tends to move into the box, attacking the channels, and at that point the WB does provide the attacking width.

image.thumb.png.13ca1e64194582903f34814213edddd9.png

Players are dumb. Even in your own clip, you've got the left winger and left back practically touching each other, and the right winger and right back only a few yards apart. 

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23 minutes ago, Sophos said:

image.thumb.png.13ca1e64194582903f34814213edddd9.png

Players are dumb. Even in your own clip, you've got the left winger and left back practically touching each other, and the right winger and right back only a few yards apart. 

Yes players can act dumb but this isn't really a good example as it is some sort of counter and everybody exept 2 CBs are running towords opposition box. They would not act like that in the normal build up.

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10 minutes ago, yolixeya said:

Yes players can act dumb but this isn't really a good example as it is some sort of counter and everybody exept 2 CBs are running towords opposition box. They would not act like that in the normal build up.

Might not be the best example, but even during a counter-attack the right winger there should be running down the wing. Instead he sort of stands still for a bit, then the fullback catches up, then they make the exact same run. 

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32 minutes ago, Sophos said:

image.thumb.png.13ca1e64194582903f34814213edddd9.png

Players are dumb. Even in your own clip, you've got the left winger and left back practically touching each other, and the right winger and right back only a few yards apart. 

You need to take a look at the context, my right winger is sitting very deep because he was the one who won the ball back in our defensive third, starting the counter attack. The left back running into the left winger (who is set as an inverted winger even) is a bit more of an issue, but like it was said, it was a counter attack and they both were rushing into the box. Not ideal, but not completely stupid.

Here's an example of the movement that I described of the right wingback behind the right winger in our first game of the new season, against PSG. Furlan is playing as the AM as Mateo is at the bloody olympics alongside 4 first team players, kinda stupid but it is what it is. He receives the ball with space to run. Note that in the build up the winger is wide and the wingback sits behind him. When Furlán dribbles towards the left side of the pitch the right winger sees a vacant position for him to occupy, he then positions himself narrower and then eventually scores with an assist from the wingback who overlaps him at the right time, after a switch of play from our DLP.

RWBRWMovement.thumb.gif.d730cb9a00177298591e88a7314d067d.gif

I'm not here to claim the ME is perfect and the players don't make stupid decisions; they absolutely do. What I meant to say is that when you have players in 'conflicting' positions they'll adjust somewhat. From my experience, if my right winger was setup in a role that had him go narrower earlier the wingback would absolutely rush past him earlier, even in the same role and duty.

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On 29/05/2020 at 12:02, Crazy_Ivan said:

I will also add to the two excellent posts on here that the number 10 in real life has the same issues with the position as we do in the game. Type in number 10 in a search engine and most articles will be about "the death of the number 10"

I agree with you about the classic number 10 dying. However, my understanding of this was that the death was more due to teams not being able to afford to let one player not do any defensive work (meaning a CAM with good work rate shouldn't need to be 'accomodated') as well as the popularity of defensive midifelders meaning that it's difficult to fit a CAM as well as a DM in the same formation (unless you play a diamond of course). Another reason being the rise of more attacking wingbacks, allowing traditional wingers to cut in more and provide that creativity that a CAM was needed for.

There's also an argument that the defensive midfileders don't allow the CAM any space. But then you still have lots of popular formations that don't use a DM such as 442, 343 etc. In this case, your CAM should still get good ratings in around half the games he plays - when the opposition don't use a DM.

I feel like (even if the tactic will be 'outdated' and not able to compete at the very very top) you should be able to play a 4231 with traditional wingers, full backs and No9s without having a CAM that is just a passenger. Even a 4411 should surely be able to get the best out of a CAM, as it will only be a slightly more extreme version of a 442 with the more supporting striker being pushed slightly further back.

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Posted (edited)

@dekzeh 

I was originally using a standard 4231 when I asked this question, but after reading your post, I moved the CM's back to DM, and I feel like my CAM (although still not as good as I would like) definately played better. Before he was reguarly getting the lowest rating out of the attacking 4 and producing the least output despite being a playmaker and attracting the ball more. I've realised with the new tactic that my CAM is rarely significantly lower than the rest of the attackers which is a relief. 

I think next time I have a good CAM, I will try a 4411 and play a Treq with an AF, and try to play similar to 442 tactics that I've used before to success with an F9/AF combo. Maybe pusing the winger back a notch will allow them to still cut inside without invading the same space as the CAM. 

I reckon a good team to try this with will be Valencia. I've ran a Marcelino-esque 442 with them to great success with wingers cutting inside and Rodrigo as a DLFs dropping into the hole to pick up the ball and a poacher up front. Rodrigo is a good player so should attract some interest, I could then sell him and promote Lee Kangin who (in FM19 atleast) looks to have world class potential as a calssic CAM. It should also be a good challenge, as he doesn't have the workrate to track back as a CM or winger, and doesn't really have the jumping reach/ bravery/ heading that I like to see from my strikers I'll run something likes this:

image.thumb.png.cb9cf1eba6b0287c3718d7f40baf2126.png

Maybe make him an AMa if I have a CM good enough to play as a DLP

image.thumb.png.34890bfe53bedd8f0a794dd9bff14110.png

 

What do you think mate?

 

At 17 years old, he also has the potential to have world calss off the ball and balance, as @zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz rightfully said earlier to be essential attributes.

As long as we have CM's that can defend and work hard, as well has a strong/fast/tall forward, we can sit back and defend before springing a counter attack, with a forward running on to through balls from Kangin, or holding up long clearances to lay off to Kangin to create something. Then we can have fast wingers to transition quickly.

Edited by Jack722

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Posted (edited)

The thing is he doesn't have to be a passenger though, i have had plenty of success with a an AM adding plenty to build up play and chipping in with quite a few goals. The issue I see a lot on here and other places is that people are bemused that the Riquelme/Ozil role is not easily replicated on FM when playing in leagues proliferated with 1 or 2 DM's.

Edited by Crazy_Ivan

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Could you post your tactic please Ivan?  Becoming very frustrated with my favourite game and spending a lot of time trying to get a 4231 to work. Results are good but can’t get inside forward/ inverted winger on AML or AMC to play consistently and it’s boring me slightly. Gone to a 442 with a striker dropping in deeper and the AML now at ML as a wide midfielder doesn’t now always run into trouble at least. 

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39 minutes ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

The thing is he doesn't have to be a passenger though, i have had plenty of success with a an AM adding plenty to build up play and chipping in with quite a few goals. The issue I see a lot on here and other places is that people are bemused that the Riquelme/Ozil role is not easily replicated on FM when playing in leagues proliferated with 1 or 2 DM's.

OK, like I said earlier in the post, I didn't really care what role the CAM had, I just wanted to know people's thought on how you can get a CAM to produce a decent output of goals/assists or at least have a an average rating that accurately reflects the player's ability. If you've managed to get CAM's playing well, please do share any of your tactics/player stats/thoughts/ types of goals scored if you are willing to. 

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6 minutes ago, yorkie87 said:

Could you post your tactic please Ivan?  Becoming very frustrated with my favourite game and spending a lot of time trying to get a 4231 to work. Results are good but can’t get inside forward/ inverted winger on AML or AMC to play consistently and it’s boring me slightly. Gone to a 442 with a striker dropping in deeper and the AML now at ML as a wide midfielder doesn’t now always run into trouble at least. 

This was with Hertha  where I used an Assymetric tactic with a fast paced attack that I posted on here a couple of months back. My AM was an actual AM because I like how it is basically a blank slate that can have pi's added to make it play how I like but this was situational tis depending on how the opposition set-up and whether they had a DM or not.

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

OK, like I said earlier in the post, I didn't really care what role the CAM had, I just wanted to know people's thought on how you can get a CAM to produce a decent output of goals/assists or at least have a an average rating that accurately reflects the player's ability. If you've managed to get CAM's playing well, please do share any of your tactics/player stats/thoughts/ types of goals scored if you are willing to. 

Ok, early on in my save with Marseille I used(albeit I made some changes myself) Crusaderstar's "Hammer and Anvil" tactic which uses an Engache. The results were quite spectacular. 

Link

 

Capture.PNGe.PNG

Capture.PNGw.PNG

Edited by Crazy_Ivan

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I am tempted to make another Asymmetric tactic with a AM but as a possession tactic(although the general consensus would say that's a no no)  this time  to see how we can get the AM involved as a solid important contributor. The aim would be to show the importance of having the right players in the right roles to make it work.

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1 hour ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Ok, early on in my save with Marseille I used(albeit I made some changes myself) Crusaderstar's "Hammer and Anvil" tactic which uses an Engache. The results were quite spectacular. 

Link

 

Capture.PNGe.PNG

Capture.PNGw.PNG

Those are some great ratings, good job. How would you adapt that to a classic 4231? I know it's a bit weird but I have a thing against assymetric for some reason and never play like that consistently. :lol:

Also, not critisizing, just wondering, don't you find that an IW and MEZ with the Enganche clog up the middle a bit too much? My understanding is that the best way to have an CAM shine is to give him. I know that the MEZ also drifts wide as it goes forward, but it still should move into the CAM's space more than a traditional CM. I understand that you haven't built the tactic in order to get the most out of the CAM, but what are your thoughts on the MEZ+IW+EG combination?

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15 minutes ago, Jack722 said:

Those are some great ratings, good job. How would you adapt that to a classic 4231? I know it's a bit weird but I have a thing against assymetric for some reason and never play like that consistently. :lol:

Also, not critisizing, just wondering, don't you find that an IW and MEZ with the Enganche clog up the middle a bit too much? My understanding is that the best way to have an CAM shine is to give him. I know that the MEZ also drifts wide as it goes forward, but it still should move into the CAM's space more than a traditional CM. I understand that you haven't built the tactic in order to get the most out of the CAM, but what are your thoughts on the MEZ+IW+EG combination?

Hah and I have an aversion to not having a DM so stay clear of the standard 4231 :D  The whole point of that tactic is to keep the mezzala, iw and wb on support close to each other creating an overload which would free the winger and striker for a run at goal. Personally I would stick to an Attacking midfielder role because of the clean slate it gives you to tweak as you like but I also have no interest anymore in my AM being my primary creator so I am happy with him making key passes and chipping in goals. 

Here you can see what the overload looks like and how it frees my absolute beast of a winger(my backup was just as good) to a one on one situation with just so much space to operate in. The winger was lightning fast, technically excellent and very intelligent so I could rely on him to get past his marker and make the right decision.

over1.png.573a3d97ce7e278c79b789631095ff61.pngIover2.png.e78048912402df0373239f9a371818d0.png

In this set it pretty much shows how important my AM was to my tactic, it was him who pinged the pass to the winger here and then gets himself in to the box to offer another scoring option but more importantly to occupy a defender which means when the winger had beaten his man we had an overload in the box for the winger to aim for. He was very much an unsung hero in my tactic. 

over3.png.4f8b863f39a4ae57425847bfcbc50387.png 

over4.png.1f57042f46a13710e85aa40927cefbd9.png

over5.png.8eab40b22c32a3ecb3c0c598e3e5bf65.png

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The one other thing from my Hertha save, this is still probably my finest goal on any save because it wen't from goalie to back of the net in just 8 touches. But the one thing that always stuck in my mind from this goal is that the second we win the ball look at Leipzigs DM, he is like white on rice on my AM asap and therein is a big problem for an AM these days. 

 

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What is a better trait for a goalscoring AMC - gets into the opposition area or arrives late into the box?

 

Currently playing as Man Utd with Bruno Fernandes in that role, performances are good but with his stats I think he should be getting more goals so looking at potentially training a new trait

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This thread is great - and as I mentioned I was looking forward to next season as I had a better AMc coming in...

image.thumb.png.417b1e8af5e59e8d4cc90a9d30cab41d.png

 

I wish I hadn't have bothered.

 

I understand that teams play with a DM or two and that there is little space for them to play (even in real football) but like a lot of the rest of the tactical side of the game there is very little leeway for error in your tactics. There's probabaly only a handful of combinations that allow certain players positions to work as we want.

My front 3 are frightening but can I balls get them to work coherently or consistently.

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I've tried him (and my previous AM) on AM(s), AM(a), AP(s) and AP(a). He'll maybe have one good game in 8.

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5 hours ago, jozza800 said:

This thread is great - and as I mentioned I was looking forward to next season as I had a better AMc coming in...

image.thumb.png.417b1e8af5e59e8d4cc90a9d30cab41d.png

 

I wish I hadn't have bothered.

 

I understand that teams play with a DM or two and that there is little space for them to play (even in real football) but like a lot of the rest of the tactical side of the game there is very little leeway for error in your tactics. There's probabaly only a handful of combinations that allow certain players positions to work as we want.

My front 3 are frightening but can I balls get them to work coherently or consistently.

what's your tactic?

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This is what i'm running with at the moment.

image.thumb.png.e509c0d9813a095bc66d52cbd8af3864.png

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Posted (edited)
1 hora atrás, jozza800 disse:

This is what i'm running with at the moment.

image.thumb.png.e509c0d9813a095bc66d52cbd8af3864.png

Just a rookie here when it comes to wingerless formations but you can try giving your team more attacking outlets such as:

  • Left WB -> change to WB Attack
  • Left Cm -> change to CAR
  • Right CM -> change to MEZ Attack

When it comes to TI it's always a good recommendation to start with the bare minimum and work from there to put in place the style of play you want.

If you want shorter passing, counter press and a high line just tick "Shorter Passing", "Counter Press" and "Higher defensive line" and see how it goes. You can retain "More urgent" or giving your most attacking players the press more instruction (AKA split block).

If your keeper is good enough on his feet you can change it to a SK (S) so he'll distribute the game however he sees fit, or in change, you can add "Take short kicks". This instruction with your shorter passing would suffice to let your team play out from the back.

I don't know the rest of your players but your AMC has 13 at dribbling but over 16 at attributes such as passing, vision, technique and off the ball, so tick try riskier passes and roam from position.

Edited by davidbarros2

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Hasnt helped.

I still maintain through balls are borked. Not just from AMCs

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While the 10 position is trickier to get working this year, a look at the AI shows it still very much works. In my save, Arteta's Arsenal have had three separate players (Ozil, Otavio and Fekir) record double-figure assists as an Advanced Playmaker (S). In Spain, De Bruyne and Havertz have 18 and 16 assists respectively, both from the 10 position. Even smaller clubs are getting success out of the position - Morgan Gibbs-White has 10 assists for Wolves and Yacine Adli has 10 assists for Brentford. 

From playing that Arsenal team, I know their AM drops deep in midfield and spreads the ball to their aggressive attacking players. To do that, the double pivot behind him were always industrial, physical players who, while good on the ball, weren't primary distributors of it. Crucially, this meant their AM wasn't receiving the ball on the edge of the opponent's box with his back to play, where he's more likely to get clattered by a defender. 

The most common reasons the AM struggles to perform in FM20 is a lack of service (resulting in low passing numbers) and frequently losing the ball as a result of central crowding. So you have to either move him away from that area by encouraging him to drop deep, or open that area of the pitch by luring the opposition out. 

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I appreciate that but even by shear ability good players in the AMC position should be doing better.

My AM has now played 10 league games and has one assist and an average of 6.67.

 

In what way should I be creating space for him? I'm not sure how much more space he needs. He doesnt have wingers cutting in near him, my midfielders dont advance to far forward and he has an AF to aim for?

What do I need to do specifically to get him going?

 

Throughout this entire save i've just been waiting/hoping that it would just click. I have been through an enormous amount of differnt formations / play styles / roles and the one that has been consistent (apart from forwards missing one on ones on breakaways) is the AM just being utter rubbish. Both in terms of ratings and output, You would think by the law of averages something should have worked.

 

This is why dekzeh's screengrab of his AMs wonderful numbers and gif of an AMC doing what 90% of people want their AMCs doing is such a genuine surprise.

 

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1 hour ago, JEinchy said:

While the 10 position is trickier to get working this year, a look at the AI shows it still very much works.

Personally, I used to have a lot of success using the 3-4-1-2. Saw some beautiful play and the AM Advanced Playmaker was my main creator.

 

giphy.gif

giphy.gif

46Z7NkM.png

iDdKvVI.png

 

Due to how vulnerable the formation is down the flanks, I was using fullbacks as Defensive Wingers, prioritizing their defensive attributes. CMs were instructed to stay wider, creating space in the middle, and the AP was instructed to roam. Can be tricky against DM formations though, as he can be marked out of the game quite easily.

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Would you mind showing me your set up for this.

I played most of last season with 3-4-1-2. I used wingbacks instead of Wingers.

 

I think i'd cram my pants if I'd scored a goal like that. Great work!

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3 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

Would you mind showing me your set up for this.

4cYhUqZ.png

Mentality: Standard

Team Instructions:

  • Shorter Passing
  • Focus Play Through Middle
  • Counter-Press
  • Hold Shape
  • Higher Defensive Line
  • Offside Trap

Player Instructions:

  • Stay Wider on CM-D
  • Roam From Position on AP-S

Opposition Instructions:

  • Always Close Down on FBs and WBs

That said, combination play through the middle is still quite rare to see, so goals like above aren't something that happens every match. But against 4-4-2s, overloads in the middle can be quite nice, especially against teams not afraid to press. :D

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On 30/05/2020 at 12:52, Jack722 said:

@dekzeh 

I was originally using a standard 4231 when I asked this question, but after reading your post, I moved the CM's back to DM, and I feel like my CAM (although still not as good as I would like) definately played better. Before he was reguarly getting the lowest rating out of the attacking 4 and producing the least output despite being a playmaker and attracting the ball more. I've realised with the new tactic that my CAM is rarely significantly lower than the rest of the attackers which is a relief. 

I think next time I have a good CAM, I will try a 4411 and play a Treq with an AF, and try to play similar to 442 tactics that I've used before to success with an F9/AF combo. Maybe pusing the winger back a notch will allow them to still cut inside without invading the same space as the CAM. 

I reckon a good team to try this with will be Valencia. I've ran a Marcelino-esque 442 with them to great success with wingers cutting inside and Rodrigo as a DLFs dropping into the hole to pick up the ball and a poacher up front. Rodrigo is a good player so should attract some interest, I could then sell him and promote Lee Kangin who (in FM19 atleast) looks to have world class potential as a calssic CAM. It should also be a good challenge, as he doesn't have the workrate to track back as a CM or winger, and doesn't really have the jumping reach/ bravery/ heading that I like to see from my strikers I'll run something likes this:

image.thumb.png.cb9cf1eba6b0287c3718d7f40baf2126.png

Maybe make him an AMa if I have a CM good enough to play as a DLP

image.thumb.png.34890bfe53bedd8f0a794dd9bff14110.png

 

What do you think mate?

 

At 17 years old, he also has the potential to have world calss off the ball and balance, as @zZzZzZzZzZzZzZz rightfully said earlier to be essential attributes.

As long as we have CM's that can defend and work hard, as well has a strong/fast/tall forward, we can sit back and defend before springing a counter attack, with a forward running on to through balls from Kangin, or holding up long clearances to lay off to Kangin to create something. Then we can have fast wingers to transition quickly.

The one issue I have with Kangin is his low Teamwork, which is a very hard to grow attribute, but otherwise he looks great. I'm not a fan of Trequartistas, not a fan of lazy players, but he has everything to work as one. The formation looks good, although I'd still play one of the wide men as a winger, or if you don't want him to be so one dimensional, a wide midfielder set to stay wider (with other possible instructions depending on player)

23 hours ago, jozza800 said:

This thread is great - and as I mentioned I was looking forward to next season as I had a better AMc coming in...

image.thumb.png.417b1e8af5e59e8d4cc90a9d30cab41d.png

 

I wish I hadn't have bothered.

 

I understand that teams play with a DM or two and that there is little space for them to play (even in real football) but like a lot of the rest of the tactical side of the game there is very little leeway for error in your tactics. There's probabaly only a handful of combinations that allow certain players positions to work as we want.

My front 3 are frightening but can I balls get them to work coherently or consistently.

This guy is phenomenal and there's no reason he shouldn't have a good output, I disagree that are only a handful of combinations that can work though, just look at so many threads we have of people playing different styles to big success.

7 hours ago, jozza800 said:

This is what i'm running with at the moment.

image.thumb.png.e509c0d9813a095bc66d52cbd8af3864.png

I think the issue here would be not having enough passing options forward for the AM, tactic looks like it would be really sterile on attack vs a packed defence, probably crossing a lot till something sticks. The AM really has one passing option which is the striker, and if he is well marked he just has to go back or go wide. I don't know how to fix though, to get the AM working as you want on a narrow formation. The diamond is a tricky setup, I ran one for a bit on this same save back when I was at Corinthians, but my AM was more of a workhorse than a creator. I relied on him more defensively than offensively, harassing the defenders and man marking the DLP if there was one, and in attack I was happy with him being marked as that left space for my BBM and Mez. His ratings were hit or miss, mostly on the hit side, but sometimes he'd go on long spells of 6.3~6.9 ratings, and then perform brilliant for the next 4 or 5 games. His ratings seem high but that was because of the state championships inflating it, where we played mostly against very poor opposition. He was my main penalty taker which is where most of his goals came from. I don't think his assists came from set pieces as I don't think he took those, but might be misremembering.  The tactic worked fine though and I was not unhappy with his contribution. I was there from 2021 till 2023.FRPs4.png

This is what I used to run

FRPwh.png

4 hours ago, jozza800 said:

Hasnt helped.

I still maintain through balls are borked. Not just from AMCs

Really disagree. I was going through my games this season to get highlights of goals that came from through balls and in the first two months I was already past of the max total size limit to upload in a post here, still, here are some examples, tried to get some variety, from players in different positions, straight through ball to goal, through ball to cross then score, counter attacks, etc.

Spoiler

DragovicToPerdomo.thumb.gif.9e8a6e3c690b56f0096df48820a15e8b.gifAlpOneTwo.thumb.gif.1d34b208e31fe6323a26143edbc052e5.gifPerdomoToMateo.thumb.gif.857e56f2ff791a8c6e98e7f201a268c6.gifThroughBallToCross.thumb.gif.4695bfc9a82005dd6e9c8ac16f07bf6f.gifElIdrissiToAlp2.thumb.gif.8d31d7a1beab9090577bfaa22752c24a.gifOrtizToAlp.thumb.gif.2089396262fc391e453727323d8edcdf.gif

I wonder if what you're not seeing in your games is down to other things than just tactics. How is your Team Cohesion? When the Team Cohesion is very good the game states "Players will experience an improvement to their vision and reactions to events unfolding when playing." Also, have you tried the match preparation training schedules? Before every match I set up an 'Attacking Movement' session and a 'Teamwork' session, and I feel the difference it makes in games is very notable.

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Some crackers there!

Team cohesion and morale are all very high.

I too have an Attacking Movement session before every game.

 

My attacking play does feels incredibly sterile. I'll chnage the formation and it sparks them into a bit of life,  i'll see something new that I like (even a through ball from time to time) and then i'll not see it again.

I have an amazing goal saved (ill see if I can find it an upload it) from a ball over the top from the DM to my AF who finished brilliantly, I haven't seen anything like it since.

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9 hours ago, jozza800 said:

I appreciate that but even by shear ability good players in the AMC position should be doing better

No, that's not how things work. Because if so, then there would be no need for tactics in FM. Just pick good players and they'll work their magic - something like that, thankfully, does not exist in FM. 

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17 hours ago, jozza800 said:

image.thumb.png.e509c0d9813a095bc66d52cbd8af3864.png

What are you trying to achieve with this tactic? You have a solid defensive foundation, and it seems like you should do well enough controlling the ball, but I'm struggling to imagine how you'd score goals with consistency. There's no dynamism or aggressiveness going forward. Your mentality is positive, but only have two players with attack role/duties. Both are central and further forward. No one is providing outlets from wide or deep. Maybe I'd change my opinion slightly depending on your LCM/RCM PIs, but I kinda doubt it. )

I'm of the opinion that if you're going to play 4312, then you should have one, if not both WBs on attack. I'd even go CWB(A) if you have an option with the technical ability. 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, noikeee said:

AMCs 99% of the time are a waste of time in FM20. I only ever managed to get them to contribute defensively or to open up space for others, but as a central hub for creating themselves they're rubbish. 

Just because you do not know how to use it doesnt mean that others cannot use it well though. There are some roles that I cannot utilize well (like advanced forward) no matter what I try but that does not stop others from having success with it. I personally know someone that only use a 4231 in all his FM saves since he started playing FM and to him the AMC in FM20 is no different from the other versions because he is so good in that formation and knows the ins and outs of the particular formation.

Edited by zyfon5

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Here comes the inevitable drop in form...

I really dont like the way the game shows this. Again SI need to come up with another way of vsualising these collapses not just making the shooting wonky.

image.thumb.png.e8bbe9631cfda4ef281908ce5346c1f4.png

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Posted (edited)
40 minutos atrás, jozza800 disse:

Here comes the inevitable drop in form...

I really dont like the way the game shows this. Again SI need to come up with another way of vsualising these collapses not just making the shooting wonky.

image.thumb.png.e8bbe9631cfda4ef281908ce5346c1f4.png

Don't beat yourself too hard or the game at this.

Sometimes it's not only the tactic. I don't know your team but you got a shaky result against juventus - away - which is an incredible team. You draw with bari, ok, but then you lose to inter and atalanta, matches played away and separated by 3 and 4 days and against 2 of the best teams in italy.

Sometimes it happens, but due to your schedule I guess it's probably related to match fitness/rest, team morale and the probably superior quality of your opponents.

Real life teams hit rough patches along their way, sometimes it's just how it is...

Edited by davidbarros2

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6 hours ago, noikeee said:

AMCs 99% of the time are a waste of time in FM20. I only ever managed to get them to contribute defensively or to open up space for others, but as a central hub for creating themselves they're rubbish. 

In a lot of formations, the AMC is the link player between midfield and attack. Most of the time, people do not get the AMC to link properly. I will say it's become quite fiddly (more than it should be) and if you get it right, it works, but if you don't, it bombs badly. Why it bombs badly is probably because the AMC position doesn't look for space well enough or often enough.

When I played and I used an AMC, he was my 2nd best performer in the entire team and 3rd best in terms of goal scoring. In my case, I tried to create the space for the AMC. I often see strange roles in a 4231 for instance where one of the CMs is a BBM. Why on earth? That player is going to get right into the space where the AMC (as a creator) is supposed to be? In a 4231, you have 4 players ahead of the BBM who pose a threat. Do you need another? It compresses space instead of using the CMs as ball recyclers, probing and prodding to send the attacking 4 on their way.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, jozza800 said:

Here comes the inevitable drop in form...

I really dont like the way the game shows this. Again SI need to come up with another way of vsualising these collapses not just making the shooting wonky.

image.thumb.png.e8bbe9631cfda4ef281908ce5346c1f4.png

Difficult to say, but it did happen mid season, which is often when teams adjust. Where were you predicted to finish and where were you before the slump? It's often a case of teams becoming more defensive and then people struggle, but since you're that far into the save, I don't know the context.

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